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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    It doesn't make much difference TBH, the deal that is available is itself likely to be so negative for the economic outlook (significant non-tariff barriers, regulatory uncertainty, nothing on services) that not getting it won't make a massive amount of difference. This is why neither side is putting much effort into securing a deal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    I really enjoy the variety Mike brings to thread topics. This is another great one.

    Andrew Wakefield had a disproportionately high following among unfulfilled middle-class suburban mothers. They lapped him up. Literally.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/andrew-wakefield-the-vaccine-scaremonger-whos-snared-supermodel-elle-macpherson-5tgzdth08

    I have a close friend who was totally beguiled and besotted by him. She attended his talks along with thousands of other dewey-eyed and guilt-ridden mothers. She bought hook line and sinker into his nonsense, refusing to vaccinate her children.

    He should be behind bars.

    The UK doesn't imprison either charlatans or misguided scientists, freedom of speech is far too important for that.

    If he'd been defrauding people of money, or inciting violence, that's different. That he is professionally ruined is more than sufficient punishment for his actions.
    Arguably we are too shy about locking up prominent scientists even when we should.

    The case of Roy Meadow, whose entirely false testimony based on statistics he didn’t understand and wasn’t competent to explain convicted several women of infanticide, springs to mind.
    Can you seriously imagine politicians wanting to set a precedent of locking people up for mere incompetence? Not sure about it myself!
    It remains doubtful that Meadows’ testimony was mere incompetence.

    Besides, it was judges, not politicians, who made the ruling. One judge even went so far as to say that expert witnesses could not be held responsible for their testimony being totally worthless and inaccurate, which was an extraordinary view to take.
    What you have to appreciate is that many judges and most lawyers are completely innumerate. Its why they did law instead of something useful like a STEM subject. Statistics or maths can seem like magic to such people and they are reluctant to question it in case they show their own ignorance.
    This is where my engineering degree and career will hopefully come in handy in my new law career!
    That does rather sound though like I K Brunel going into the demolition business....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on topic I'm surprised that so many young people would agree to have a vaccine which is a near enough wholly altruistic action.

    Perhaps if it came to it they would (cf voting) forget to do it.

    I'm surprised by your comment. The young people I know tend to be more altruistic than their elders and are keen to be vaccinated.
    I don't dispute that. Just that they might not get round to it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    I love the smell of complacent Unionist in the morning.
    HYUFD isn't a Unionist he's a jackboot wearing extremist.

    A true unionist wouldn't want to say that Scottish votes don't matter.
    Aaaannnd good morning Philip.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    I love the smell of complacent Unionist in the morning.
    HYUFD isn't a Unionist he's a jackboot wearing extremist.

    A true unionist wouldn't want to say that Scottish votes don't matter.
    Aaaannnd good morning Philip.
    Good morning to you too Topping.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Did we cover Watford's disastrous night last night?

    Needing points from the last two games you sack your manager and then in the first of the games lose by enough goals that you end up in the relegation zone with a game to go...

    They were always going to be thrashed by Man City. It is the West Ham result that is a devastating blow to them.
    Hang on, even Arsenal beat Man City, so they can't be that good.
    Pearson had a £1m bonus resting on staying up. He pulled them out of the relegation zone - only for them to fall back into it when Watford sacked him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Watford were relegated and Pearson went to court and won the case.
    To save £1m they're risking premier league status which is worth £150m. Incredible risk analysis from the owners.
    Assuming that's the motivation then yes, a poor decision. However, it must be possible they were trying the new manager effect, and with two extremely hard games left, why not?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Scott_xP said:
    That's a lot of chlorine to be fair.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Did we cover Watford's disastrous night last night?

    Needing points from the last two games you sack your manager and then in the first of the games lose by enough goals that you end up in the relegation zone with a game to go...

    They were always going to be thrashed by Man City. It is the West Ham result that is a devastating blow to them.
    Hang on, even Arsenal beat Man City, so they can't be that good.
    Pearson had a £1m bonus resting on staying up. He pulled them out of the relegation zone - only for them to fall back into it when Watford sacked him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Watford were relegated and Pearson went to court and won the case.
    To save £1m they're risking premier league status which is worth £150m. Incredible risk analysis from the owners.
    Assuming that's the motivation then yes, a poor decision. However, it must be possible they were trying the new manager effect, and with two extremely hard games left, why not?
    A new manager effect only works if there is a new manager the players respect.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    It doesn't make much difference TBH, the deal that is available is itself likely to be so negative for the economic outlook (significant non-tariff barriers, regulatory uncertainty, nothing on services) that not getting it won't make a massive amount of difference. This is why neither side is putting much effort into securing a deal.
    Well Brexit means Brexit after all...
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited July 2020

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    Did we cover Watford's disastrous night last night?

    Needing points from the last two games you sack your manager and then in the first of the games lose by enough goals that you end up in the relegation zone with a game to go...

    They were always going to be thrashed by Man City. It is the West Ham result that is a devastating blow to them.
    Hang on, even Arsenal beat Man City, so they can't be that good.
    Pearson had a £1m bonus resting on staying up. He pulled them out of the relegation zone - only for them to fall back into it when Watford sacked him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Watford were relegated and Pearson went to court and won the case.
    To save £1m they're risking premier league status which is worth £150m. Incredible risk analysis from the owners.
    Assuming that's the motivation then yes, a poor decision. However, it must be possible they were trying the new manager effect, and with two extremely hard games left, why not?
    Because they had no manager lined up and worse no motivational speaker?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
    "Could" is a very useful word for politicians, it's up there with the phrase "there is no evidence that...".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
    Easy, as long as you don’t care what angle the track is...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Transport secretary is a waste of space, the only recent minister who has given a good and apparently honest performance was Kit Malthouse who comes over as one of the few honest ones.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    HYUFD said:
    That's a good score for Trump in PA and follows on a couple of other decent polls. Poor figures in Ohio though. He can't afford to lose that.

    Seems Joe is still on track, but still beatable.
    538: Biden 7.5 ahead
    Pennsylvania 49.6 42.0 +7.5
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    I love the smell of complacent Unionist in the morning.
    HYUFD isn't a Unionist he's a jackboot wearing extremist.

    A true unionist wouldn't want to say that Scottish votes don't matter.
    They do, otherwise we wouldn't have 59 Scottish MPs
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    I had my kids vaccinated.

    But ...

    At the time (mid 90s) the Wakefield MMR controversy was all the rage. There was also reports that Gulf War Syndrome was a reaction caused by injecting soldiers with a large number of medicines/vaccines that overwhelmed and damaged their immune systems.

    Then you take your child into the GP who tells you that they will be dosing your infant child with 6 vaccines.

    I am not surprised that there were anti-vaxxers. When I was confronted with this I said we would take the MMR and come back in a month for the other three. You would have thought I was a murderer. The row got so heated I changed GP.

    Well and bravely said.

    'Anti-vaxxer' is just another stupid catch all term like 'conspiracy theorist'. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that you should be prepared to accept any injection into your own body or those of your kids regardless of the level of information you're given, just as the second term indicates that you should accept any Government or corporate line you're given. There are sometimes conspiracies. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a vaccine, or combinations of vaccines, one day, could have an unforeseen and negative effect, as so many other medical interventions down the ages have done.

    Would it be too much to ask, that the medical establishment looks for the positive in people wanting to make the right health decisions, and seeks to allay people's fears by providing more information, rather than just berating them and inventing names for them?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
    Easy, as long as you don’t care what angle the track is...
    Usain Bolt quite likes the idea of running the 100m in five seconds - but is asking: when does "running" end and "falling" start?
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,703
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-new-poll-shows-clear-majority-yes-vote-2904350

    My slip re recent polling - I was getting polling and publication dates muddled, thanks.

    But you are still comparing with and without DKs. If we go your way then No has only 43% in the most recent (Panelbase) poll vs 50% yes and 7% DK. Assuming an equal split of DKs that means (roughly - using mental arithmetic and being generous to No) about 53.5% yes and 46.5% no. Quite a difference from 2014, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Please get the nomenclature right Scott, we heading for a Australian Rules deal in December.
    A game which no-one else plays.
    You go and tell their players that their game is shit then!
    The deal might be, but the game isn't!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    There is a political world view driver of the vaccine-is-death loons. Aside from the genuinely paranoid who say its Bill Gates trying to pollute our precious bodily fluids the rest seem prone to being told that vaccines are unnatural and will give you the thing they are designed to stop you getting. The Rona vaccine will be critical both for public health and for the sake of the economy - how do we cajole / persuade force people to have it?

    As for Biden, as the DNC are bereft of talent and have had to fall back on someone whose best is not only long behind him but has a funny tinge to it as well they really are in a bind. Hence the Michelle Obama ramping despite that not being sane. Can't they co-opt someone like Tom Hanks if they don't have any politicians?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    Am I right in thinking the Daily Mail was prominent in discouraging the use of the MMR vaccine, or is that just my anti-DM prejudice showing through?

    Probably the latter! Being anti-MMR was not being anti-vaccination though. I know parents at that time who were worried about the MMR, so paid to have their kids given all the jabs separately. Given "but what if they miss one?" seemed to be the only argument against this route, if it allayed their concerns about any possible unadmitted side-effect, I wouldn't criticise them - as long as all the jabs were in fact administered.

    I mean, it's not like Big Pharma would ever lie, is it?
  • Started doing weights in the last couple of weeks to compliment my running. Definitely seen impacts on my mental health already, I feel so good after
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-new-poll-shows-clear-majority-yes-vote-2904350

    My slip re recent polling - I was getting polling and publication dates muddled, thanks.

    But you are still comparing with and without DKs. If we go your way then No has only 43% in the most recent (Panelbase) poll vs 50% yes and 7% DK. Assuming an equal split of DKs that means (roughly - using mental arithmetic and being generous to No) about 53.5% yes and 46.5% no. Quite a difference from 2014, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting.
    In Quebec in 1995 virtually all the don't knows went No.

    Hence despite the fact Yes to independence from Canada led virtually every final poll, No won 51% to 49%
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I had my kids vaccinated.

    But ...

    At the time (mid 90s) the Wakefield MMR controversy was all the rage. There was also reports that Gulf War Syndrome was a reaction caused by injecting soldiers with a large number of medicines/vaccines that overwhelmed and damaged their immune systems.

    Then you take your child into the GP who tells you that they will be dosing your infant child with 6 vaccines.

    I am not surprised that there were anti-vaxxers. When I was confronted with this I said we would take the MMR and come back in a month for the other three. You would have thought I was a murderer. The row got so heated I changed GP.

    Well and bravely said.

    'Anti-vaxxer' is just another stupid catch all term like 'conspiracy theorist'. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that you should be prepared to accept any injection into your own body or those of your kids regardless of the level of information you're given, just as the second term indicates that you should accept any Government or corporate line you're given. There are sometimes conspiracies. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a vaccine, or combinations of vaccines, one day, could have an unforeseen and negative effect, as so many other medical interventions down the ages have done.

    Would it be too much to ask, that the medical establishment looks for the positive in people wanting to make the right health decisions, and seeks to allay people's fears by providing more information, rather than just berating them and inventing names for them?
    It wasn't the right decision and you were putting your kids af extra risk. Jabs only get included after huge levels of testing over many years.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    nichomar said:

    Am I right in thinking the Daily Mail was prominent in discouraging the use of the MMR vaccine, or is that just my anti-DM prejudice showing through?

    They were prominent advocates of not vaccinating I think, if you need a certificate to prove you’ve had it to do various things (fly, concerts etc) what happens to those who can’t have it, I think being on chemo excludes you although I may be wrong. I’d be buggered and probably would struggle to get travel insurance which will become more necessary across Europe when EHIC goes.
    There will probably be some sort of medical exclusion, coupled perhaps with a declaration of self-isolation for 14 days before travel etc. Clumsy, but just about workable.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
    Easy, as long as you don’t care what angle the track is...
    Usain Bolt quite likes the idea of running the 100m in five seconds - but is asking: when does "running" end and "falling" start?
    Oh this is definitely falling. In fact there better not be too much air resistance.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on topic I'm surprised that so many young people would agree to have a vaccine which is a near enough wholly altruistic action.

    Perhaps if it came to it they would (cf voting) forget to do it.

    I'm surprised by your comment. The young people I know tend to be more altruistic than their elders and are keen to be vaccinated.
    I don't dispute that. Just that they might not get round to it.
    I've got one of those. Just haven't had time to find it.

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Scott_xP said:
    So if he had won the election what would have happened? I’m assuming the party leader couldn’t have the whip taken away without their consent?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    He must be looking at PHE death figures
  • Lol, removing the Whip from Corbyn would be amazing to see the Corbynite response
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    Unite spending workers money to aid managers in another organisation persecute their workers.
    Labour apologising in court for claiming its "we've seen anti-semitism" workers were liars
    Corbyn having the whip removed.
    A twitter storm and "down with this sort of thing" 2 person Momentum protests from cultists

    Loving this new series of the Thick of It
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I think it is perhaps because vaccinations have been so successful in some countries that they have a problem. Parents don’t see anyone around with the diseases and think they are using the precautionary principle: there is no risk from the disease (they think) and there is a small risk from the vaccination, so go with the lower risk. It is wrong of course, but I understand the logic they are using.

    It doesn’t matter how good your logic is if your premise is wrong.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Scott_xP said:
    Amputation required to stop the gangrene....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
    Easy, as long as you don’t care what angle the track is...
    Usain Bolt quite likes the idea of running the 100m in five seconds - but is asking: when does "running" end and "falling" start?
    Oh this is definitely falling. In fact there better not be too much air resistance.
    He could use his Virgin ad suit.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149

    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I think it is perhaps because vaccinations have been so successful in some countries that they have a problem. Parents don’t see anyone around with the diseases and think they are using the precautionary principle: there is no risk from the disease (they think) and there is a small risk from the vaccination, so go with the lower risk. It is wrong of course, but I understand the logic they are using.

    It doesn’t matter how good your logic is if your premise is wrong.
    I wonder if a subtler variant is also operating with the more sophisticated? The thinking may be, all those fools have had their children vaccinated so we now have herd immunity, I don't need to even risk my child ...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,149
    edited July 2020
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/22/tourists-cornwall-family-scared-lockdown-coronavirus

    o/t - an interesting perspective of a Cornishman and tourists in the covid era.

    Edit: but it also suggests that people are behaving according to their very skewed perceptions of risk - in much the way @Fysics_Teacher suggests for vaccine takeup.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There was never any realistic chance of agreeing a trade deal with the USA in a Presidential election year. Any serious talk about a trade deal should start next year (hopefully under Biden) with an aim to wrap it up before the Midterms.

    So BoZo lied to us. Again.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1285824588010737665
    No lie. Did you read the quotes, firstly it didn't come from Boris, secondly it used the word "could".

    If you improve your literacy maybe you'd be less angry all the time. Same for Pickard, the only lie is swapping the word "could" with "would". Here's something even children should know - those two word have very different meanings.
    I could run 100 metres in five seconds.

    I only said "could". Please don't hold me to it.
    Easy, as long as you don’t care what angle the track is...
    Usain Bolt quite likes the idea of running the 100m in five seconds - but is asking: when does "running" end and "falling" start?
    Fastest running race of all time:
    (Great pub quiz question by the way, it's not what most people think it should be).
    Average 100m speed 9.21s, including Carter who had to do the standing start. Bolt did 8.70s for his 100m (the last 100m of a 110m run).
    http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m4x100ok.htm
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwLDpcye-VM
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Withdrawing the whip from the man who was leader just three and a half months ago would be quite a move by Starmer and the more squealing there is from Corbyn backers the better it is for the new leader.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    They might.
    For now they’re already building one in Germany.
    Basically we’ve much reduced the chance of next generation equivalents of the Nissan plant in Sunderland
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739

    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    You mean they "could" build one...?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    From the Melbourne outbreak:
    Nearly 90% of cases did not isolate between first feeling symptoms and getting tested
    53% of people did not self-isolate while waiting for their results

    Prompt self-quarantine/isolation is likely more important than wearing masks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    I had my kids vaccinated.

    But ...

    At the time (mid 90s) the Wakefield MMR controversy was all the rage. There was also reports that Gulf War Syndrome was a reaction caused by injecting soldiers with a large number of medicines/vaccines that overwhelmed and damaged their immune systems.

    Then you take your child into the GP who tells you that they will be dosing your infant child with 6 vaccines.

    I am not surprised that there were anti-vaxxers. When I was confronted with this I said we would take the MMR and come back in a month for the other three. You would have thought I was a murderer. The row got so heated I changed GP.

    Well and bravely said.

    'Anti-vaxxer' is just another stupid catch all term like 'conspiracy theorist'. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that you should be prepared to accept any injection into your own body or those of your kids regardless of the level of information you're given, just as the second term indicates that you should accept any Government or corporate line you're given. There are sometimes conspiracies. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a vaccine, or combinations of vaccines, one day, could have an unforeseen and negative effect, as so many other medical interventions down the ages have done.

    Would it be too much to ask, that the medical establishment looks for the positive in people wanting to make the right health decisions, and seeks to allay people's fears by providing more information, rather than just berating them and inventing names for them?
    It wasn't the right decision and you were putting your kids af extra risk. Jabs only get included after huge levels of testing over many years.
    That being the case, it should be very easy to provide, and continue to provide, information and evidence to support informed decision making.

    It is a bit rich to criticise 'low information voters' and on the other hand, to be scared of providing them with information.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I would love to know what actually happens to these people. It is clearly not just people who are stupid. Wakefield was clearly not an idiot and he is not the only one. We can all think of people in the public eye who have gone full on weird.

    When Plato started posting odd stuff I started to follow her on Twitter and then Gab when she got banned from twitter. The stuff was absolutely bonkers. One that springs to mind is the conspiracy theories on CNN broadcasts being faked. The stuff that was identified make the moon landings not happening look positively sane in terms of the effort CNN would have had to put together to fake stuff that didn't need faking.

    Yet she didn't post this stuff earlier. It strikes me that it is very similar to cult behaviour, but what makes someone susceptible to a cult?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    They might.
    For now they’re already building one in Germany.
    Basically we’ve much reduced the chance of next generation equivalents of the Nissan plant in Sunderland
    We'll need to give pretty big tax subsidies, tbh most of Europe will.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    HYUFD said:
    That's a good score for Trump in PA and follows on a couple of other decent polls. Poor figures in Ohio though. He can't afford to lose that.

    Seems Joe is still on track, but still beatable.
    538: Biden 7.5 ahead
    Pennsylvania 49.6 42.0 +7.5
    My current best guess

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    They might.
    For now they’re already building one in Germany.
    Basically we’ve much reduced the chance of next generation equivalents of the Nissan plant in Sunderland
    Each Tesla factory can produce of the order of 500K vehicles per year.

    Tesla has to increase production by multiple million vehicles to achieve the gaol of being (say) 20% of world car production.

    They have massive capitalisation and (now) huge investment reach - being able to make the Model 3 profitably means that each new factory is more profit.

    They have a policy of trying to base production in the geographic areas of sale - the Chinese factory is for sales in China, primarily.

    The only question is where the multiple other factories will go.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    I had my kids vaccinated.

    But ...

    At the time (mid 90s) the Wakefield MMR controversy was all the rage. There was also reports that Gulf War Syndrome was a reaction caused by injecting soldiers with a large number of medicines/vaccines that overwhelmed and damaged their immune systems.

    Then you take your child into the GP who tells you that they will be dosing your infant child with 6 vaccines.

    I am not surprised that there were anti-vaxxers. When I was confronted with this I said we would take the MMR and come back in a month for the other three. You would have thought I was a murderer. The row got so heated I changed GP.

    Well and bravely said.

    'Anti-vaxxer' is just another stupid catch all term like 'conspiracy theorist'. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that you should be prepared to accept any injection into your own body or those of your kids regardless of the level of information you're given, just as the second term indicates that you should accept any Government or corporate line you're given. There are sometimes conspiracies. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a vaccine, or combinations of vaccines, one day, could have an unforeseen and negative effect, as so many other medical interventions down the ages have done.

    Would it be too much to ask, that the medical establishment looks for the positive in people wanting to make the right health decisions, and seeks to allay people's fears by providing more information, rather than just berating them and inventing names for them?
    It wasn't the right decision and you were putting your kids af extra risk. Jabs only get included after huge levels of testing over many years.
    That being the case, it should be very easy to provide, and continue to provide, information and evidence to support informed decision making.

    It is a bit rich to criticise 'low information voters' and on the other hand, to be scared of providing them with information.
    I think we can agree on the inadequacy of government messaging.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    He must be looking at PHE death figures
    In the article mentioned, he does not claim coronavirus is a hoax. He is a 'no worse than seasonal flu' guy. That is obviously subject to its own criticism, but it's not quite the same.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Lol, removing the Whip from Corbyn would be amazing to see the Corbynite response

    It would be an interesting move, Corbyn remains very popular in the Labour movement and people forget that he got 40% of the vote in the 2017 election
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I'm literally first in the queue for the vaccine.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited July 2020
    kjh said:

    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I would love to know what actually happens to these people. It is clearly not just people who are stupid. Wakefield was clearly not an idiot and he is not the only one. We can all think of people in the public eye who have gone full on weird.

    When Plato started posting odd stuff I started to follow her on Twitter and then Gab when she got banned from twitter. The stuff was absolutely bonkers. One that springs to mind is the conspiracy theories on CNN broadcasts being faked. The stuff that was identified make the moon landings not happening look positively sane in terms of the effort CNN would have had to put together to fake stuff that didn't need faking.

    Yet she didn't post this stuff earlier. It strikes me that it is very similar to cult behaviour, but what makes someone susceptible to a cult?
    In schools, if not also at home, kids should be taught literacy, numeracy and scepticism. If I were a school teacher I'd give 'em an article once a week to criticise. And maybe I'd build on that in other ways.

    As
    Harry Truman might say: "I'm from Missouri show me".
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    MaxPB said:

    I'm literally first in the queue for the vaccine.

    I'll be fighting you for that first place!
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    Talk is cheap - especially when you are seeking favours...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    I had my kids vaccinated.

    But ...

    At the time (mid 90s) the Wakefield MMR controversy was all the rage. There was also reports that Gulf War Syndrome was a reaction caused by injecting soldiers with a large number of medicines/vaccines that overwhelmed and damaged their immune systems.

    Then you take your child into the GP who tells you that they will be dosing your infant child with 6 vaccines.

    I am not surprised that there were anti-vaxxers. When I was confronted with this I said we would take the MMR and come back in a month for the other three. You would have thought I was a murderer. The row got so heated I changed GP.

    Well and bravely said.

    'Anti-vaxxer' is just another stupid catch all term like 'conspiracy theorist'. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that you should be prepared to accept any injection into your own body or those of your kids regardless of the level of information you're given, just as the second term indicates that you should accept any Government or corporate line you're given. There are sometimes conspiracies. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a vaccine, or combinations of vaccines, one day, could have an unforeseen and negative effect, as so many other medical interventions down the ages have done.

    Would it be too much to ask, that the medical establishment looks for the positive in people wanting to make the right health decisions, and seeks to allay people's fears by providing more information, rather than just berating them and inventing names for them?
    My GP did the vaccines, for our children, over a few weeks. She said that it seemed like a logical way to do it, since any reaction to a particular shot would have time to show up and be noted.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    Talk is cheap - especially when you are seeking favours...
    I doubt they'll get any favours without actually building the factory.

    The Department for International Trade has confirmed it is assisting in locating a suitable site for the factory but not confirmed who is behind it (assumed to be Tesla).
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Scott_xP said:
    Life was easier as a Tory when the LOTO was a complete f***** twat, that's for certain.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm literally first in the queue for the vaccine.

    I'll be fighting you for that first place!
    I'll probably be last in my household to get it (I'm the only one not eligible to get a free flu vaccine).
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    kjh said:

    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I would love to know what actually happens to these people. It is clearly not just people who are stupid. Wakefield was clearly not an idiot and he is not the only one. We can all think of people in the public eye who have gone full on weird.

    When Plato started posting odd stuff I started to follow her on Twitter and then Gab when she got banned from twitter. The stuff was absolutely bonkers. One that springs to mind is the conspiracy theories on CNN broadcasts being faked. The stuff that was identified make the moon landings not happening look positively sane in terms of the effort CNN would have had to put together to fake stuff that didn't need faking.

    Yet she didn't post this stuff earlier. It strikes me that it is very similar to cult behaviour, but what makes someone susceptible to a cult?
    Wakefield is easy.
    He held the patent to one of the "single vaccines" that could be used to replace MMR as three separate single vaccinations.
    If the MMR jab could be discredited, he would make a fortune. It didn't work, he got discredited, the anti-vaxxers provided him a refuge and decent income, so he began giving them exactly what they asked for. It made him (in)famous, provided him with a model girlfriend, a steady and good income, and tenure in a crackpot university.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm literally first in the queue for the vaccine.

    I'll be fighting you for that first place!
    Honestly, I don't understand people not going to get it ASAP. It's the ticket back to normal living and pubs being open fully, bars being open and even being able to have club nights.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094

    Unite spending workers money to aid managers in another organisation persecute their workers.

    Does Unite have the legal right to spend money on this type of Court Action?

    They are already reportedly covering the costs of the Skwawkbox - Anna Turley libel case to the possible tune of 7 figures.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/19/ex-labour-mp-anna-turley-awarded-libel-damages-over-union-story

    Is this ultra vires for a Trade Union?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    He must be looking at PHE death figures
    In the article mentioned, he does not claim coronavirus is a hoax. He is a 'no worse than seasonal flu' guy. That is obviously subject to its own criticism, but it's not quite the same.
    The article does say that the death figures are being exaggerated. It does seem to me that PHE are just guessing figures at the moment. Yesterday's number was just bizzare.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    They might.
    For now they’re already building one in Germany.
    Basically we’ve much reduced the chance of next generation equivalents of the Nissan plant in Sunderland
    Each Tesla factory can produce of the order of 500K vehicles per year.

    Tesla has to increase production by multiple million vehicles to achieve the gaol of being (say) 20% of world car production.

    They have massive capitalisation and (now) huge investment reach - being able to make the Model 3 profitably means that each new factory is more profit.

    They have a policy of trying to base production in the geographic areas of sale - the Chinese factory is for sales in China, primarily.

    The only question is where the multiple other factories will go.
    The last time I looked up the numbers, a factory the size of Nissan Sunderland (current largest UK car plant) would supply only 10% of annual UK car sales. So if Tesla want 20% of the market, they'll need a factory double the size of the current largest one just to satisfy domestic UK demand.

    UK also has the advantage of being the world's second largest RHD market - concentrating all RHD production in two or three factories (UK, JP, AU or SA) also allows for extra efficiencies in all the others.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on topic I'm surprised that so many young people would agree to have a vaccine which is a near enough wholly altruistic action.

    Perhaps if it came to it they would (cf voting) forget to do it.

    You may be on to something there. A lot of people under 50 are extremely pissed off with people over 50, because of eg. Brexit. “Forgetting” to take a vaccine might be their little private protest against older people “forgetting” about the interests of younger people.
    If an oldie has had the vaccine how does youngsters not having it affect them? If you have the vaccine does it matter what anyone else does? Perhaps I am missing something here.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Withdrawing the whip from the man who was leader just three and a half months ago would be quite a move by Starmer and the more squealing there is from Corbyn backers the better it is for the new leader.

    If Starmer is lucky a few others, like Burgon, will resign the whip in protest.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    MattW said:

    Unite spending workers money to aid managers in another organisation persecute their workers.

    Does Unite have the legal right to spend money on this type of Court Action?

    They are already reportedly covering the costs of the Skwawkbox - Anna Turley libel case to the possible tune of 7 figures.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/19/ex-labour-mp-anna-turley-awarded-libel-damages-over-union-story

    Is this ultra vires for a Trade Union?
    Perhaps a willing participant could join Unite and bring a case...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    And yet we're rewarding them with inflation busting pay rises. Rewards for their failure and destroying the education of millions of children because the unions decided to hold the nation to ransom.

    It's time for the government to order them back to work fully in mid August and get all children back to school.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020
    School closures were not just about the teachers rottenborough.

    Pre-closure I was getting crowded into a stuffed crowd of parents and grandparents waiting to pick up kids at 3:30.

    Post-reopening until they closed for the summer last week its been completely different. Only a few classes reopened of course, staggered start and leave times, smaller classes and using different gates and social distances for each class at pick up and drop off times which were extended to encourage distancing..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I'm literally first in the queue for the vaccine.

    I'll be fighting you for that first place!
    Honestly, I don't understand people not going to get it ASAP. It's the ticket back to normal living and pubs being open fully, bars being open and even being able to have club nights.
    Yep. I've not been on a plane since January, both BA and Emirates are going to reply with 'who?' the next time I call them - whenever that happens to be.

    Concerts, bars and clubs are all only going back to normal once this disease is pretty much gone, and vaccines offer the best chance of that happening sooner rather than later.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Withdrawing the whip from the man who was leader just three and a half months ago would be quite a move by Starmer and the more squealing there is from Corbyn backers the better it is for the new leader.

    It would be a "Clause 4 moment" and no mistake.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    Talk is cheap - especially when you are seeking favours...
    I doubt they'll get any favours without actually building the factory.

    The Department for International Trade has confirmed it is assisting in locating a suitable site for the factory but not confirmed who is behind it (assumed to be Tesla).
    All the existing (and planned) Tesla factories, US, China & Germany got favours from the respective governments (national and local).

    These were all contingent on actually building the factories and operating them - tax breaks etc.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited July 2020

    I had my kids vaccinated.

    But ...

    At the time (mid 90s) the Wakefield MMR controversy was all the rage. There was also reports that Gulf War Syndrome was a reaction caused by injecting soldiers with a large number of medicines/vaccines that overwhelmed and damaged their immune systems.

    Then you take your child into the GP who tells you that they will be dosing your infant child with 6 vaccines.

    I am not surprised that there were anti-vaxxers. When I was confronted with this I said we would take the MMR and come back in a month for the other three. You would have thought I was a murderer. The row got so heated I changed GP.

    Well and bravely said.

    'Anti-vaxxer' is just another stupid catch all term like 'conspiracy theorist'. Taken to its logical conclusion, it means that you should be prepared to accept any injection into your own body or those of your kids regardless of the level of information you're given, just as the second term indicates that you should accept any Government or corporate line you're given. There are sometimes conspiracies. And it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a vaccine, or combinations of vaccines, one day, could have an unforeseen and negative effect, as so many other medical interventions down the ages have done.

    Would it be too much to ask, that the medical establishment looks for the positive in people wanting to make the right health decisions, and seeks to allay people's fears by providing more information, rather than just berating them and inventing names for them?
    It wasn't the right decision and you were putting your kids af extra risk. Jabs only get included after huge levels of testing over many years.
    Re-read my original post Mike - at the time the MMR (the one she jabbed my daughter with that very day) was the centre of a vaccine controversy. Medicines have gone wrong before - when I was a kid I came across Thalidomide children. That was a "safe" drug and it still happens - another drug "safe" enough for human trials...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22556736
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    Toms said:

    kjh said:

    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I would love to know what actually happens to these people. It is clearly not just people who are stupid. Wakefield was clearly not an idiot and he is not the only one. We can all think of people in the public eye who have gone full on weird.

    When Plato started posting odd stuff I started to follow her on Twitter and then Gab when she got banned from twitter. The stuff was absolutely bonkers. One that springs to mind is the conspiracy theories on CNN broadcasts being faked. The stuff that was identified make the moon landings not happening look positively sane in terms of the effort CNN would have had to put together to fake stuff that didn't need faking.

    Yet she didn't post this stuff earlier. It strikes me that it is very similar to cult behaviour, but what makes someone susceptible to a cult?
    In schools, if not also at home, kids should be taught literacy, numeracy and scepticism. If I were a school teacher I'd give 'em an article once a week to criticise. And maybe I'd build on that in other ways.

    As
    Harry Truman might say: "I'm from Missouri show me".
    I think that is very sensible, but something happens at some point to certain people who do actually challenge stuff but in ludicrous ways (find bizarre reasons to negate evidence eg the CNN stuff) yet accept stuff that is clearly demonstrably nonsense.

    There is challenging and challenging. How do you respond to someone who says 'show me it wasn't the lizards that did it'

    40 odd years ago (it is that much printed on my mind) I was waiting to meet up with a girlfriend on Tottenham Court Road when I was approached by someone doing a survey. I was early so said ok. We went into a shop front where many were doing the survey. Afterwards there was an interview. At this point it became obvious this was a conversion exercise into some sort of cult/con. I was so angry I let rip and stormed out. I was also angry with myself that I got suckered in to it to that point, although there was nothing to suggest it was a cult/con until the interview when it became obvious very quickly. I wondered how often they were successful.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh and on topic I'm surprised that so many young people would agree to have a vaccine which is a near enough wholly altruistic action.

    Perhaps if it came to it they would (cf voting) forget to do it.

    You may be on to something there. A lot of people under 50 are extremely pissed off with people over 50, because of eg. Brexit. “Forgetting” to take a vaccine might be their little private protest against older people “forgetting” about the interests of younger people.
    If an oldie has had the vaccine how does youngsters not having it affect them? If you have the vaccine does it matter what anyone else does? Perhaps I am missing something here.
    Yes. Two things.

    1: Vaccines don't have a 100% success rate normally and may fail for an individual.
    2: Not all individuals are able to have a vaccine, eg if they're immunocompromised and thus especially vulnerable.

    This is why because of idiots refusing to get the MMR jab increasing numbers of children are getting Measles etc . . . because the vaccine works through two different mechanisms, firstly protecting the individual from getting it the vast majority of the time and secondly by creating a herd immunity effect so that even those who can't get it (or it doesn't work for) are protected too.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346
    MaxPB said:

    And yet we're rewarding them with inflation busting pay rises. Rewards for their failure and destroying the education of millions of children because the unions decided to hold the nation to ransom.

    It's time for the government to order them back to work fully in mid August and get all children back to school.
    At my nephews school, the start of term in September is being delayed by two days for two Inset days
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    Talk is cheap - especially when you are seeking favours...
    If Tesla is to achieve its mission:
    "Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy"
    it will need factories in all the major markets.
    The reason the UK wasn't in line for the European Gigafactory was explained by Elon Musk in that article:
    "Musk previously stated that Tesla looked at the UK for a possible factory location before choosing to build its first European Gigafactory near Berlin, but they thought it “too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK” due to “Brexit uncertainty”.

    The west country location may not be a full GigaFactory, but hopefully we'll get something. From that article:
    "It’s just hard to believe that Tesla would be looking for another factory in Europe even though they barely started construction on their first one near Berlin.

    But with the UK government desperate to boost the economy after the pandemic, Tesla might be getting a sweet incentive package to land a factory in the UK.

    We also recently learned that Tesla has applied to virtually become an electric utility in the UK, which could mean that they plan to expand Tesla Energy in the market."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    Talk is cheap - especially when you are seeking favours...
    I doubt they'll get any favours without actually building the factory.

    The Department for International Trade has confirmed it is assisting in locating a suitable site for the factory but not confirmed who is behind it (assumed to be Tesla).
    All the existing (and planned) Tesla factories, US, China & Germany got favours from the respective governments (national and local).

    These were all contingent on actually building the factories and operating them - tax breaks etc.
    Of course!

    Hard to imagine what kind of favours they could possibly get if they didn't build and operate the factory. Tax breaks on a factory that doesn't exists is a bit . . . hard to explain.

    Its not like the government is writing a cheque and then they're going to vanish into the night like some cowboy builder.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458

    kjh said:

    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I would love to know what actually happens to these people. It is clearly not just people who are stupid. Wakefield was clearly not an idiot and he is not the only one. We can all think of people in the public eye who have gone full on weird.

    When Plato started posting odd stuff I started to follow her on Twitter and then Gab when she got banned from twitter. The stuff was absolutely bonkers. One that springs to mind is the conspiracy theories on CNN broadcasts being faked. The stuff that was identified make the moon landings not happening look positively sane in terms of the effort CNN would have had to put together to fake stuff that didn't need faking.

    Yet she didn't post this stuff earlier. It strikes me that it is very similar to cult behaviour, but what makes someone susceptible to a cult?
    Wakefield is easy.
    He held the patent to one of the "single vaccines" that could be used to replace MMR as three separate single vaccinations.
    If the MMR jab could be discredited, he would make a fortune. It didn't work, he got discredited, the anti-vaxxers provided him a refuge and decent income, so he began giving them exactly what they asked for. It made him (in)famous, provided him with a model girlfriend, a steady and good income, and tenure in a crackpot university.
    So you are saying he is corrupt and not a crackpot. If so he should be in jail and not just struck off.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    kjh said:

    Toms said:

    kjh said:

    Toms said:

    Andrew Wakefield now claiming that coronavirus is a hoax.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12149075/andrew-wakefield-claiming-coronavirus-is-a-hoax/

    Then he is falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded room. Again.

    Consider smallpox. Using cowpox, or its later refinements, may have been the 1st vaccine. It saved millions from death or disfiguration. It's now history.

    Or how about polio? I knew people who had to live in an iron lung. My brother had it, but was unaffected after a stay in the hospital. I believe, owing to a benighted core of people, it may still not be eradicated.

    I had a case of measles that nearly felled me. Now we have a well tested triple vaccine, but owing to the aforementioned benighted, it still lurks and damages kids.

    But, if people will believe the world was created 6000 yeas ago and/or vote for Trump we must acknowledge the limitless malleability of the human brain.
    I would love to know what actually happens to these people. It is clearly not just people who are stupid. Wakefield was clearly not an idiot and he is not the only one. We can all think of people in the public eye who have gone full on weird.

    When Plato started posting odd stuff I started to follow her on Twitter and then Gab when she got banned from twitter. The stuff was absolutely bonkers. One that springs to mind is the conspiracy theories on CNN broadcasts being faked. The stuff that was identified make the moon landings not happening look positively sane in terms of the effort CNN would have had to put together to fake stuff that didn't need faking.

    Yet she didn't post this stuff earlier. It strikes me that it is very similar to cult behaviour, but what makes someone susceptible to a cult?
    In schools, if not also at home, kids should be taught literacy, numeracy and scepticism. If I were a school teacher I'd give 'em an article once a week to criticise. And maybe I'd build on that in other ways.

    As
    Harry Truman might say: "I'm from Missouri show me".
    I think that is very sensible, but something happens at some point to certain people who do actually challenge stuff but in ludicrous ways (find bizarre reasons to negate evidence eg the CNN stuff) yet accept stuff that is clearly demonstrably nonsense.

    There is challenging and challenging. How do you respond to someone who says 'show me it wasn't the lizards that did it'

    40 odd years ago (it is that much printed on my mind) I was waiting to meet up with a girlfriend on Tottenham Court Road when I was approached by someone doing a survey. I was early so said ok. We went into a shop front where many were doing the survey. Afterwards there was an interview. At this point it became obvious this was a conversion exercise into some sort of cult/con. I was so angry I let rip and stormed out. I was also angry with myself that I got suckered in to it to that point, although there was nothing to suggest it was a cult/con until the interview when it became obvious very quickly. I wondered how often they were successful.
    Probably Scientology
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    Talk is cheap - especially when you are seeking favours...
    If Tesla is to achieve its mission:
    "Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy"
    it will need factories in all the major markets.
    The reason the UK wasn't in line for the European Gigafactory was explained by Elon Musk in that article:
    "Musk previously stated that Tesla looked at the UK for a possible factory location before choosing to build its first European Gigafactory near Berlin, but they thought it “too risky to put a Gigafactory in the UK” due to “Brexit uncertainty”.

    The west country location may not be a full GigaFactory, but hopefully we'll get something. From that article:
    "It’s just hard to believe that Tesla would be looking for another factory in Europe even though they barely started construction on their first one near Berlin.

    But with the UK government desperate to boost the economy after the pandemic, Tesla might be getting a sweet incentive package to land a factory in the UK.

    We also recently learned that Tesla has applied to virtually become an electric utility in the UK, which could mean that they plan to expand Tesla Energy in the market."
    The UK market was 2.3 million cars last year. So 10-20% of that would require an entire Gigafactory to supply.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    I'm actually quite encouraged by the numbers in the survey - if the DKs break 50:50 then that is quite close to being enough across the board. If they can be reached - though I can see the benefit of a legal requirement to take it unless medical advice can be demonstrated showing a valid reason for not doing so.

    If we are having compulsory masks, then I have no problem with an effective vaccine being compulsory on this occasion.

    I would put refuseniks into two or three groups - older groups such as some religious (cf history of Polio Vaccine campaign in some areas of Africa), newer groups such as those Jehoveh's Witnesses who follow their pre-1992 anti-vaccine doctrines and fashionable far-East based cults, and those who have swallowed media-stuff (reporting Wakefield / Icke) or emanations from more reckless celebrities.

    It can be quite interesting talking to PHE people about public health challenges in the areas of the countryside where NRMs (New Religious Movements) have their rural retreats.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Scott_xP said:

    Telegraph says Government has given up hope of deal. All a ruse like with No Deal last time or are we really headed for oblivion?

    Last time wasn't a ruse. We are heading for No Deal with anybody
    Covid is a handy cloak to wrap around the aftermath.
    I'm more concerned about what No Deal does to the aftermath of Covid.
    Compared to the economic effects of COVID, those of Brexit and a potential Scottish Independence are background noise.
    The concern is that what would be a relatively small shock, in the wake of COVID might be much amplified.

    As a small example, we’ve already lost the chance of the new car and battery factories being planned and built to supply Europe.
    (The accelerated transition to electric being one of the means by which governments will attempt to revive economies.)
    There's talk of Tesla building a Gigafactory in Somerset.

    https://electrek.co/2020/06/09/tesla-uk-factory-rumor-gain-traction-elon-musk/
    They might.
    For now they’re already building one in Germany.
    Basically we’ve much reduced the chance of next generation equivalents of the Nissan plant in Sunderland
    No we've not. Germany were always favourites to get the first factory with or without Brexit, their manufacturing and car industry is much greater developed than ours.
This discussion has been closed.