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  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    DavidL said:

    Nevermind Tesla, Britain is already the base for JLR’s push towards electric motoring.

    Yes, this is going to be really important for our future and the government should use its new found freedom to ensure that investments in this technology by JLR get all the help they need.
    The problem for JLR will be bridging the gap as conventional production dwindles and stalls. Not an issue for Tesla.
    The problem for all car companies (bar Tesla) is surviving the transition
  • That would spark an internal civil war within the party. I'd be surprised if Starmer did that, but who knows.
  • I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 757
    tlg86 said:

    I think Starmer has to expel Corbyn now. Anything less will look weak.

    Might be going to.

    https://twitter.com/acailler/status/1285840008885215233
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I remember those posters telling us this was a right wing smear operation and nothing to see here.....
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Scott_xP said:
    I suspect the Johnson blustering and mindless enjoiners to get behind Britain will be ringing very hollow for vast swathes of electorate by 2024.

    Many of them will have been unemployed for years by then.

    I doubt Boris will be in post by then
    Me too. Apart from anything else he doesn't really look like he enjoys the job.
    I doubt anyone would be enjoying the job at the moment....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    eek said:

    I doubt anyone would be enjoying the job at the moment....

    I think May would be in her element.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    Keir "low energy" Starmer if he wants to go full Trumpian and demean our politics a bit more. And why the devil not. People don't seem to give a shit these days.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Monkeys said:

    tlg86 said:

    I think Starmer has to expel Corbyn now. Anything less will look weak.

    Might be going to.

    https://twitter.com/acailler/status/1285840008885215233
    I know, but this is ramping up expectations. And given what happened in PMQs today, it would help back up Starmer's message if he went through with it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    Keir "low energy" Starmer if he wants to go full Trumpian and demean our politics a bit more. And why the devil not. People don't seem to give a shit these days.
    Because of course the left has never come up with stupid names and smears for conservative politicians, noooo...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    Nothing less than that will show Starmer is serious.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    Whatever Corbyn's oversights may have been, the moment is not comparable however. Militant, in proportionate numbers, were a very small faction ; Corbyn enjoys support from a very substantial group of Labour members, mainly a coalition of 80's left and machine-politics returnees, and much younger and more idealistic arrivals. As Starmer was elected on a unity ticket, in any action like that would be dynamite for party unity.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Beep Beep Beep.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited July 2020
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
    My memory is that irrespective of that the 'answer choice' was vetted and agreed by the Electoral Commission, which also changed the question to achieve neutrality anyway.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/scottish-independence-referendum/our-advice-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-question

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Referendum-on-independence-for-Scotland-our-advice-on-referendum-question.pdf

    Edit: seems as if SLAB wante3d 'remain' as one choice. Obviously rejected.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    They're not going to flip flop on this are they? 🤣
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    I do hope you're right. It's important just for the self-respect of the public that they eventually see through and "bust" this conman. And preferably sooner rather than later.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    Whatever Corbyn's oversights may have been, the moment is not comparable, however. Militant, in proportionate numbers, were a very small faction ; Corbyn enjoys support from a very substantial group of Labour members, mainly a coalition of 80's left and machine-politics returnees, and much younger and more idealistic arrivals. As Starmer was elected on a unity ticket, in any action like that would be dynamite for party unity.
    It might also be dynamite for the Lib Dems. If the Labour hard left are forced to decamp to a fringe party, we might see a reversal of the SDP breakaway.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    tlg86 said:

    Monkeys said:

    tlg86 said:

    I think Starmer has to expel Corbyn now. Anything less will look weak.

    Might be going to.

    https://twitter.com/acailler/status/1285840008885215233
    I know, but this is ramping up expectations. And given what happened in PMQs today, it would help back up Starmer's message if he went through with it.
    It is worth remembering that some such briefing of the press is about trying to force the hand of decision makers.

    Rather than what is actually planned/happening.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
    You say that like its a bad thing.

    If the Tories had been infiltrated by the far right racist BNP like Labour have by the far left racist SWP then I would want a split!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh dear.

    In a democracy a country gets the politics it deserves and we have a tacky, end-of-the-pier, vacuous poshboy clown as our PM.

    An uncomfortable thought.
    How does it fit with your personal philosophy to single a person's social background out as a subject for mockery? Indeed, since, Boris probably can't help being 'tacky', or 'end of the pier', is any of this appropriate?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    True, though I’m not sure that I prefer politicians driven by a particular belief either. That way you get people like Corbyn.

    A politician who is only out for themself is much less likely to do something spectacularly bad unless they think there are votes in it.
    You want some integrity though.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    I am interested to see how the attacks on Corbyn as attacks on Starmer work going forward.

    Surely there is a simple means to fix all the pressing issues. The stench of anti-semitism. The absurd black-is-whiteism. The party within a party that is Momentum. Simply remove the whip from Corbyn and then from Sultana, Webbe and all the others who will spontaneously combust in fury. Yes he loses perhaps a dozen MPs. But (a) the Tories have a big majority (b) the sacked MPs won't back the Tories and (c) it draws a mega line between old and new.
    Absolutely agree with this. In 2007, the Socialist Campaign Group had 24 of 353 MPs. This has now gone up to 35/202. Many of the new Corbynites are in their 40s or younger and could be there for decades.

    Blair with his large majorities could afford to turn a blind eye to the SCG. Sir Keir can’t afford to if he wants to be PM
    Labour have a lunatics problem. Embedded lunatics imposed on constituency parties in ostensibly safe seats. Embedded lunatics elected to run constituency parties. Expulsion of Corbyn would see the lot of them leave, probably quickly, and go off to found Socialist Labour 2 or Scab Unity Action or something.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
    You say that like its a bad thing.

    If the Tories had been infiltrated by the far right racist BNP like Labour have by the far left racist SWP then I would want a split!

    I say it neutrally. I was a partial, not total, critic of Corbyn, generally being closer to Ed Miliband's views. He just can't go through with a promise like that, wherever one might stand on him, however - with its current makeup it would simply destroy the party, and in doing that remove any chance of a Left challenge for years to come.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    Nevermind Tesla, Britain is already the base for JLR’s push towards electric motoring.

    Yes, this is going to be really important for our future and the government should use its new found freedom to ensure that investments in this technology by JLR get all the help they need.
    The government should help them make cars with interiors that don't fall to bits before they worry about anything else.
    I have an XF and it is pretty nice inside.

    What we need going forward is to ensure that British steel is available to build the cars, that our Universities, colleges and apprenticeship schemes supply the skilled labour that is needed, that import substitution of parts is encouraged, that our tax system encourages investment in capital and training, to ensure that the infrastructure is there to meet the demands of electric cars and to ensure that we encourage their use, especially in city centres.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    I thought Boris was awful at PMQs today. Boris's style of rambling, all over the place stuff is often very effective, but this did just come over as, well, rambling and all over the place.

    And the joke! Again normally excellent, but it was so telegraphed, so set up, you could see it coming from miles away, which meant a potentially corny but funny joke fell completely flat.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
    You say that like its a bad thing.

    If the Tories had been infiltrated by the far right racist BNP like Labour have by the far left racist SWP then I would want a split!

    I say it neutrally. I was a partial, not total, critic of Corbyn, generally being closer to Ed Miliband's views. He can't go through with a promise like that, wherever one might stand on him, however - it would just destroy the party.
    It wouldn't destroy the party, it would make the party fit for governance. It would show the party was serious, willing to learn and move on.

    Every voter that switches from Tory to Labour is worth 2 votes compared to a voter that switches from Labour to SWP. And if the SWP voters think better the Red Tories than the actual Tories then its pure win for Starmer.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Oh dear.

    In a democracy a country gets the politics it deserves and we have a tacky, end-of-the-pier, vacuous poshboy clown as our PM.

    An uncomfortable thought.
    How does it fit with your personal philosophy to single a person's social background out as a subject for mockery? Indeed, since, Boris probably can't help being 'tacky', or 'end of the pier', is any of this appropriate?
    I'm not mocking him I'm describing him.

    To a tee.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    tlg86 said:

    I think Starmer has to expel Corbyn now. Anything less will look weak.

    I reckon there is a big chance of a Green Party surge if Corbyn gets the old Spanish Archer. Left wing martyrdom secured, the kids who voted for him in 2017 will not back Starmer Labour. That might be compensated for by the arrival of the Cameroons from the right of the left though.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    kinabalu said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    Keir "low energy" Starmer if he wants to go full Trumpian and demean our politics a bit more. And why the devil not. People don't seem to give a shit these days.
    Because of course the left has never come up with stupid names and smears for conservative politicians, noooo...
    Nothing wrong with a good insult. But Johnson accusing Starmer of flip-flops doesn't really work. Because it doesn't tap into visceral knowledge of the man, and everyone knows what Johnson is like.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
    You say that like its a bad thing.

    If the Tories had been infiltrated by the far right racist BNP like Labour have by the far left racist SWP then I would want a split!

    I say it neutrally. I was a partial, not total, critic of Corbyn, generally being closer to Ed Miliband's views. He can't go through with a promise like that, wherever one might stand on him, however - it would just destroy the party.
    It wouldn't destroy the party, it would make the party fit for governance. It would show the party was serious, willing to learn and move on.

    Every voter that switches from Tory to Labour is worth 2 votes compared to a voter that switches from Labour to SWP. And if the SWP voters think better the Red Tories than the actual Tories then its pure win for Starmer.
    And you can only vote for the SWP if the SWP stood at election time otherwise your choice would be Labour or sitting at home - and I suspect a lot of SWP voters would still end up voting Labour (because their Granny did and they always have).
  • If there is enough evidence for Corbyn to have the Whip removed - and seems like there is - then Starmer should do it but he's going to torch his leadership credentials with a decent minority of the membership.

    Luckily for Keir, the only people that can start a leadership challenge are MPs
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kinabalu said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    Keir "low energy" Starmer if he wants to go full Trumpian and demean our politics a bit more. And why the devil not. People don't seem to give a shit these days.
    Because of course the left has never come up with stupid names and smears for conservative politicians, noooo...
    Nothing wrong with a good insult. But Johnson accusing Starmer of flip-flops doesn't really work. Because it doesn't tap into visceral knowledge of the man, and everyone knows what Johnson is like.
    I think it works for two reasons.

    Firstly because Starmer does keep switching tack after the fact rather than being consistent.
    Secondly because it is a dig that sends a message, whenever Starmer attacks something after the fact again that same dig can be taken out to reply to it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
    You say that like its a bad thing.

    If the Tories had been infiltrated by the far right racist BNP like Labour have by the far left racist SWP then I would want a split!

    I say it neutrally. I was a partial, not total, critic of Corbyn, generally being closer to Ed Miliband's views. He can't go through with a promise like that, wherever one might stand on him, however - it would just destroy the party.
    It wouldn't destroy the party, it would make the party fit for governance. It would show the party was serious, willing to learn and move on.

    Every voter that switches from Tory to Labour is worth 2 votes compared to a voter that switches from Labour to SWP. And if the SWP voters think better the Red Tories than the actual Tories then its pure win for Starmer.
    Labour, with the Tories' very successful culture war being waged, is still an equally very long journey away from regaining red wall votes, and expelling Corbyn would mainly only help in marginal English seats, in the short-term. The current makeup of the party simply means it would be self-damaging, or even suicide.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020

    If there is enough evidence for Corbyn to have the Whip removed - and seems like there is - then Starmer should do it but he's going to torch his leadership credentials with a decent minority of the membership.

    Luckily for Keir, the only people that can start a leadership challenge are MPs

    If the antisemite members take themselves out of the party too that's a win for Labour too.

    "Don't expel antisemites or you might piss off antisemite voters/members" is no way to run a mainstream party.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    IMO there is no chance whatsoever of Jeremy Corbyn being ejected from the Labour Party. That is silly season.
  • https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1285902449866399744

    Aha and how many Tory MPs appear on RT on a reasonably regular basis?
  • kinabalu said:

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    IMO there is no chance whatsoever of Jeremy Corbyn being ejected from the Labour Party. That is silly season.
    There's a decent chance he is to be honest. Not sure it will be today but if EHRC is damaging he has a good chance of being kicked out.

    Frankly if he's been anti-Semitic and there is evidence he's behaved in an appalling way it's what is deserved, however much I used to support him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    kjh said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    I thought Boris was awful at PMQs today. Boris's style of rambling, all over the place stuff is often very effective, but this did just come over as, well, rambling and all over the place.

    And the joke! Again normally excellent, but it was so telegraphed, so set up, you could see it coming from miles away, which meant a potentially corny but funny joke fell completely flat.
    I thought he did well initially to get Starmer on the back foot when he was the one trying to explain why a report that should have been published 9 months ago was not. He really didn't have an answer about why alleged gaps in our security had not been addressed to date and pointing to future legislation really highlighted the point.

    But the line that told was that the Labour party was "under new management". Words were put into action this morning by the settlement of the defamation case. Further steps to show how far away he is from Corbyn really should follow and if it does Boris's attacks on the Corbyn era will be permanently neutered.

    Not a bad day's work from his perspective.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    If there is enough evidence for Corbyn to have the Whip removed - and seems like there is - then Starmer should do it but he's going to torch his leadership credentials with a decent minority of the membership.

    Luckily for Keir, the only people that can start a leadership challenge are MPs

    If the antisemite members take themselves out of the party too that's a win for Labour too.

    "Don't expel antisemites or you might piss off antisemite voters/members" is no way to run a mainstream party.
    Neil Kinnock, for all of his faults, rebuilt the Labour Party in a constructive fashion.

    Nuking it from orbit is not the only way. to be sure.

    With apologies to Corp. Hudson.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    I think Starmer probably won today just although I'm biased so likely a tie in that case.

    Not particularly convincing from either side.

    Johnson is going on Starmer flip flopping but I'm not convinced attacks on Corbyn are really relevant

    If the rumours are true that Starmer is about to throw Corbyn and his other supportive mps out of labour then that is a huge moment

    I remember Kinnock doing it all those years ago, a real moment in politics
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1285866756305833984
    Unsurprising - that would shatter the party in two. Maybe this is "get tough' centrist-style mood music for the papers.
    You say that like its a bad thing.

    If the Tories had been infiltrated by the far right racist BNP like Labour have by the far left racist SWP then I would want a split!
    It’s something that, despite what else might be said of him, Nigel Farage was very quick to deal with when it happened in his parties.

    It’s easier when it’s activists and a few councillors though, as opposed to a few dozen MPs and local party leaders that Starmer might have to expel.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited July 2020

    kinabalu said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    Keir "low energy" Starmer if he wants to go full Trumpian and demean our politics a bit more. And why the devil not. People don't seem to give a shit these days.
    Because of course the left has never come up with stupid names and smears for conservative politicians, noooo...
    You misunderstand me (as is not unknown). I'm postulating - although I hope I'm wrong - that the PM himself might start indulging in this sort of puerile nicknaming stuff. So, no, a Labour PM has never sunk to that level AFAICR.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    kinabalu said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    Keir "low energy" Starmer if he wants to go full Trumpian and demean our politics a bit more. And why the devil not. People don't seem to give a shit these days.
    Because of course the left has never come up with stupid names and smears for conservative politicians, noooo...
    Nothing wrong with a good insult. But Johnson accusing Starmer of flip-flops doesn't really work. Because it doesn't tap into visceral knowledge of the man, and everyone knows what Johnson is like.
    I think it works for two reasons.

    Firstly because Starmer does keep switching tack after the fact rather than being consistent.
    Secondly because it is a dig that sends a message, whenever Starmer attacks something after the fact again that same dig can be taken out to reply to it.
    Yes, "Captain Hindsight" is a much more fruitful line, though it needs careful fact-checking. Though if Brexit turns out to be a disaster (and that is the main question which will determine the 2024 result), that may turn out to blow up in Johnson's face as well.
  • isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    I think Starmer has to expel Corbyn now. Anything less will look weak.

    I reckon there is a big chance of a Green Party surge if Corbyn gets the old Spanish Archer. Left wing martyrdom secured, the kids who voted for him in 2017 will not back Starmer Labour. That might be compensated for by the arrival of the Cameroons from the right of the left though.
    The thing with the Corbyn surge in 2017 was that a large part of it was racking up additional votes in already safe seats. The Tories' safest seat is Castle Point with around 75% of the vote. Labour's is Liverpool Walton with around 85% of the vote despite being 11 points behind nationally. If the Momentum types decant to the Greens it might cost Lab a few points off the national vote share but is unlikely to lose them any actual seats. If Lab can then pick up some swing voters, it could lead to a much more efficient distribution of the Labour vote and seat gains on the same national vote share
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Nothing wrong with a good insult.

    For someone who made his living as a creative writer, BoZo is surprisingly shit at coming up with good insults though.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Firstly because Starmer does keep switching tack after the fact rather than being consistent.

    That's bollocks though.

    Starmer has been entirely consistent on Russia.

    Unlike BoZo, who has only ever been consistent on helping himself
  • Starmer will gain a couple of points from the LD side if he clears out the deadwood.

    Let's be a proper social democratic party
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:


    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
    My memory is that irrespective of that the 'answer choice' was vetted and agreed by the Electoral Commission, which also changed the question to achieve neutrality anyway.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/scottish-independence-referendum/our-advice-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-question

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Referendum-on-independence-for-Scotland-our-advice-on-referendum-question.pdf

    Edit: seems as if SLAB wante3d 'remain' as one choice. Obviously rejected.
    Yes, the difference was that for the Scottish referendum the EC commented on a proposed question and answers (and, as you note, amended the question slightly), whereas for the EU referendum they were instructed to write the question and answers themselves.

    Their research indicated that Remain and Leave, when asked about membership of an organisation, is the most impartial way of phrasing the answers - but were happy to proceed with the Yes/No answers in Scotland.

    The hypothetical for a future referendum would be, do those in favor of the change want the same question and answer that was rejected previously, or something slightly different?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Brexitlandia.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:


    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
    My memory is that irrespective of that the 'answer choice' was vetted and agreed by the Electoral Commission, which also changed the question to achieve neutrality anyway.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/scottish-independence-referendum/our-advice-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-question

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Referendum-on-independence-for-Scotland-our-advice-on-referendum-question.pdf

    Edit: seems as if SLAB wante3d 'remain' as one choice. Obviously rejected.
    Yes, the difference was that for the Scottish referendum the EC commented on a proposed question and answers (and, as you note, amended the question slightly), whereas for the EU referendum they were instructed to write the question and answers themselves.

    Their research indicated that Remain and Leave, when asked about membership of an organisation, is the most impartial way of phrasing the answers - but were happy to proceed with the Yes/No answers in Scotland.

    The hypothetical for a future referendum would be, do those in favor of the change want the same question and answer that was rejected previously, or something slightly different?
    I was thinking:

    We told you the last time and we are fed up with being asked again and

    It's no fair, we want another shot.

    Seems pretty impartial to me.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:


    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
    My memory is that irrespective of that the 'answer choice' was vetted and agreed by the Electoral Commission, which also changed the question to achieve neutrality anyway.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/scottish-independence-referendum/our-advice-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-question

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Referendum-on-independence-for-Scotland-our-advice-on-referendum-question.pdf

    Edit: seems as if SLAB wante3d 'remain' as one choice. Obviously rejected.
    Yes, the difference was that for the Scottish referendum the EC commented on a proposed question and answers (and, as you note, amended the question slightly), whereas for the EU referendum they were instructed to write the question and answers themselves.

    Their research indicated that Remain and Leave, when asked about membership of an organisation, is the most impartial way of phrasing the answers - but were happy to proceed with the Yes/No answers in Scotland.

    The hypothetical for a future referendum would be, do those in favor of the change want the same question and answer that was rejected previously, or something slightly different?
    A suspicion must arise that those in favour of the change to leave/remain are trying to wreck the validity of any referendum result, for their own reasons.

    Yes/No cannot have been bad as both sides and the EC were happy with the resulting question and answer. It is very well understood in Scotland - and continues to be, not least thanks to the Scottish Tories' rebranding themselves de facto until very recently as the R. Davidson No to Independence party, certainly on all their electoral literature.

    There is a real risk of confusion with Brexit if the other wording is adopted, because Leave/Remain is and continues to be highly prominent in the Brexit context - just see any day on PB.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707
    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:


    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
    My memory is that irrespective of that the 'answer choice' was vetted and agreed by the Electoral Commission, which also changed the question to achieve neutrality anyway.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/scottish-independence-referendum/our-advice-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-question

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Referendum-on-independence-for-Scotland-our-advice-on-referendum-question.pdf

    Edit: seems as if SLAB wante3d 'remain' as one choice. Obviously rejected.
    Yes, the difference was that for the Scottish referendum the EC commented on a proposed question and answers (and, as you note, amended the question slightly), whereas for the EU referendum they were instructed to write the question and answers themselves.

    Their research indicated that Remain and Leave, when asked about membership of an organisation, is the most impartial way of phrasing the answers - but were happy to proceed with the Yes/No answers in Scotland.

    The hypothetical for a future referendum would be, do those in favor of the change want the same question and answer that was rejected previously, or something slightly different?
    The UK isn't a membership organisation, so Remain/Leave wouldn't be appropriate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Sandpit said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:


    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Interesting question.

    Leave/Remain were the question answers written by the Electoral Commission to be as impartial as possible for the 2016 referendum.

    The Yes/No answers used in 2014 were written by Alex Salmond and agreed by David Cameron.
    My memory is that irrespective of that the 'answer choice' was vetted and agreed by the Electoral Commission, which also changed the question to achieve neutrality anyway.

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/scottish-independence-referendum/our-advice-proposed-scottish-independence-referendum-question

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/Referendum-on-independence-for-Scotland-our-advice-on-referendum-question.pdf

    Edit: seems as if SLAB wante3d 'remain' as one choice. Obviously rejected.
    Yes, the difference was that for the Scottish referendum the EC commented on a proposed question and answers (and, as you note, amended the question slightly), whereas for the EU referendum they were instructed to write the question and answers themselves.

    Their research indicated that Remain and Leave, when asked about membership of an organisation, is the most impartial way of phrasing the answers - but were happy to proceed with the Yes/No answers in Scotland.

    The hypothetical for a future referendum would be, do those in favor of the change want the same question and answer that was rejected previously, or something slightly different?
    The UK isn't a membership organisation, so Remain/Leave wouldn't be appropriate.
    The other point is that Yes/No refer to a clear end point - independence. Mewrely 'leaving' the UK does not make this clear.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    DavidL said:

    kjh said:

    If Starmer keeps going on the line that Johnson is an opportunist who doesn't really believe in anything except Boris Johnson, he is really on to something.

    The best attack lines are the ones which everyone, deep down, believes to be true. Such as Johnson being an opportunist.

    Makes the Starter flip-flops line odd. I get that Johnson enjoys the gags, but do they match public perception? Dull seems closer to the mark.
    I thought Boris was awful at PMQs today. Boris's style of rambling, all over the place stuff is often very effective, but this did just come over as, well, rambling and all over the place.

    And the joke! Again normally excellent, but it was so telegraphed, so set up, you could see it coming from miles away, which meant a potentially corny but funny joke fell completely flat.
    I thought he did well initially to get Starmer on the back foot when he was the one trying to explain why a report that should have been published 9 months ago was not. He really didn't have an answer about why alleged gaps in our security had not been addressed to date and pointing to future legislation really highlighted the point.

    But the line that told was that the Labour party was "under new management". Words were put into action this morning by the settlement of the defamation case. Further steps to show how far away he is from Corbyn really should follow and if it does Boris's attacks on the Corbyn era will be permanently neutered.

    Not a bad day's work from his perspective.
    I definitely agree with your 2nd para and I suspect I agree with your 1st para as well, because I thought Starmer did not exploit Boris's weakness on the delay enough. It was an opportunity missed.

    Boris was also flummoxed by the delayed last question (I assume Starmer only got 6 questions and not a bonus one!) and he is also thrown by the speaker not liking him speaking to the end of the chamber.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    On Corbyn, I may be old-fashioned, but wouldn't it be wise to await the publication of the EHRC report before deciding what, if any, sanctions may be applied?

    On a related matter, it's lovely to see so many PB Tories, and one Lib Dem (recent joiner), being so concerned about the welfare of the Labour Party. Especially as not one of them, as far as I can tell, would ever contemplate voting for a left-of-centre party. Your concerns are really appreciated.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Ewni? Niew?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    On Corbyn, I may be old-fashioned, but wouldn't it be wise to await the publication of the EHRC report before deciding what, if any, sanctions may be applied?

    On a related matter, it's lovely to see so many PB Tories, and one Lib Dem (recent joiner), being so concerned about the welfare of the Labour Party. Especially as not one of them, as far as I can tell, would ever contemplate voting for a left-of-centre party. Your concerns are really appreciated.

    Does party allegiance really stop anyone from commenting on the internal machinations of other parties?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Ewni? Niew?
    fUK and rUK were mooted back in 2013-14 here and elsewhere as working descriptive shorthand when discussingf the implications of a Yes success in 2014; f = former, r = rump. But it was generally felt that whatever-one-calls-it would be anxious to retain the name of UK for prestige and legal reasons - e.g. UN Security Council seat, etc.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    I am interested to see how the attacks on Corbyn as attacks on Starmer work going forward.

    Surely there is a simple means to fix all the pressing issues. The stench of anti-semitism. The absurd black-is-whiteism. The party within a party that is Momentum. Simply remove the whip from Corbyn and then from Sultana, Webbe and all the others who will spontaneously combust in fury. Yes he loses perhaps a dozen MPs. But (a) the Tories have a big majority (b) the sacked MPs won't back the Tories and (c) it draws a mega line between old and new.
    How easily can he do that? Does he have to have a specific thing in the rules he can point to, or is there an all encompassing “bringing the party into disrepute” clause he can employ?
    Literally that. The clause is the ultimate catch-all, and the General Secretary has the power of God to deploy it as they see fit.
    That could get very interesting.

    We need a sensible Labour Party, an opposition with a realistic chance of becoming a government. Starmer is off to a good start and thinning the ranks of the far left can only help him.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I am interested to see how the attacks on Corbyn as attacks on Starmer work going forward.

    Surely there is a simple means to fix all the pressing issues. The stench of anti-semitism. The absurd black-is-whiteism. The party within a party that is Momentum. Simply remove the whip from Corbyn and then from Sultana, Webbe and all the others who will spontaneously combust in fury. Yes he loses perhaps a dozen MPs. But (a) the Tories have a big majority (b) the sacked MPs won't back the Tories and (c) it draws a mega line between old and new.
    How easily can he do that? Does he have to have a specific thing in the rules he can point to, or is there an all encompassing “bringing the party into disrepute” clause he can employ?
    Literally that. The clause is the ultimate catch-all, and the General Secretary has the power of God to deploy it as they see fit.
    That could get very interesting.

    We need a sensible Labour Party, an opposition with a realistic chance of becoming a government. Starmer is off to a good start and thinning the ranks of the far left can only help him.
    You would have thought that having total lunatics like Corbyn, Burgon, Sultana, Russell Moyle and Long Bailey in a new Party slagging him off morning, noon and night would actually be very helpful to him with swing voters.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    RobD said:

    On Corbyn, I may be old-fashioned, but wouldn't it be wise to await the publication of the EHRC report before deciding what, if any, sanctions may be applied?

    On a related matter, it's lovely to see so many PB Tories, and one Lib Dem (recent joiner), being so concerned about the welfare of the Labour Party. Especially as not one of them, as far as I can tell, would ever contemplate voting for a left-of-centre party. Your concerns are really appreciated.

    Does party allegiance really stop anyone from commenting on the internal machinations of other parties?
    No. Don't be daft, that wasn't what I meant at all. All are welcome to comment. But equally, I'm allowed to ask "whose interest does this serve?" in response to comments from political opponents.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Nigelb said:

    A very good thread on a shockingly bad seroprevalence study by the CDC.
    Sets out very well the problems in estimating the numbers of those who have already been infected:
    https://twitter.com/DiseaseEcology/status/1285696432478052355

    That thread by Florian Krammer is an absolute pearl
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Ewni? Niew?
    fUK and rUK were mooted back in 2013-14 here and elsewhere as working descriptive shorthand when discussingf the implications of a Yes success in 2014; f = former, r = rump. But it was generally felt that whatever-one-calls-it would be anxious to retain the name of UK for prestige and legal reasons - e.g. UN Security Council seat, etc.
    I think Northern Ireland still counts as a Kingdom, but perhaps the Act of Union with Ireland was repealed at some point.

    So, minus Scotland, you'd have the United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland.

    Wales would be a bit awkward because it's technically part of the Kingdom of England, but it won't help to make it obvious.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    On Corbyn, I may be old-fashioned, but wouldn't it be wise to await the publication of the EHRC report before deciding what, if any, sanctions may be applied?

    On a related matter, it's lovely to see so many PB Tories, and one Lib Dem (recent joiner), being so concerned about the welfare of the Labour Party. Especially as not one of them, as far as I can tell, would ever contemplate voting for a left-of-centre party. Your concerns are really appreciated.

    I have voted Labour in every election I have ever voted in since coming of age in 1994. I would prefer a Labour government to a Tory government. I would vote Labour if there was no LD candidate and the Labour candidate wasn't bonkers.

    You were saying?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    ydoethur said:

    I am interested to see how the attacks on Corbyn as attacks on Starmer work going forward.

    Surely there is a simple means to fix all the pressing issues. The stench of anti-semitism. The absurd black-is-whiteism. The party within a party that is Momentum. Simply remove the whip from Corbyn and then from Sultana, Webbe and all the others who will spontaneously combust in fury. Yes he loses perhaps a dozen MPs. But (a) the Tories have a big majority (b) the sacked MPs won't back the Tories and (c) it draws a mega line between old and new.
    How easily can he do that? Does he have to have a specific thing in the rules he can point to, or is there an all encompassing “bringing the party into disrepute” clause he can employ?
    Literally that. The clause is the ultimate catch-all, and the General Secretary has the power of God to deploy it as they see fit.
    That could get very interesting.

    We need a sensible Labour Party, an opposition with a realistic chance of becoming a government. Starmer is off to a good start and thinning the ranks of the far left can only help him.
    You would have thought that having total lunatics like Corbyn, Burgon, Sultana, Russell Moyle and Long Bailey in a new Party slagging him off morning, noon and night would actually be very helpful to him with swing voters.
    Exactly. And when push comes to shove in a key vote are these Momentum / Tribune Party MPs going to back the Tories out of spite?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Ewni? Niew?
    United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

    UKEWN
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    More letter writing sophistry. Expect the Tory poll lead to go up.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    MaxPB said:

    More letter writing sophistry. Expect the Tory poll lead to go up.
    I'm not making any claims about polling moves. But it is not sophistry.
    PM says not going back to austerity.
    Chancellor says we're going back to austerity.
    One of them is lying / not in possession of the facts
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    Pulpstar said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Ewni? Niew?
    United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

    UKEWN
    Surely United Kingdom of Northern Ireland, England and Wales

    UKNEW
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    Can't very well be 'leave the UK' as it's a matter of dissolving the Treaty of Union, and there is no other kingdom for England to be united to ...

    Edit: disolution of the ToU would be de facto even if the result went through some other legal mechanism.
    The Union between Scotland and England created Great Britain. The UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    And Wales must fit in there too?
    Wales was a part of the Kingdom of England.
    But not now, I guess. So if Scotland leave we are left with -

    Kingdom of England.
    Principality of Wales.
    Province of Northern Ireland.

    What will we call that? Greater England? The UK? Something brand new?
    Ewni? Niew?
    fUK and rUK were mooted back in 2013-14 here and elsewhere as working descriptive shorthand when discussingf the implications of a Yes success in 2014; f = former, r = rump. But it was generally felt that whatever-one-calls-it would be anxious to retain the name of UK for prestige and legal reasons - e.g. UN Security Council seat, etc.
    I think Northern Ireland still counts as a Kingdom, but perhaps the Act of Union with Ireland was repealed at some point.

    So, minus Scotland, you'd have the United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland.

    Wales would be a bit awkward because it's technically part of the Kingdom of England, but it won't help to make it obvious.
    The abolition of the independent Kingdom of Ireland to create a new United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was rather the point of the Act of Union. Whether the result of repealing the Act of Union would create a Kingdom of Ireland,a Kingdom of Northern Ireland, or something else, is I suspect moot and would be overtaken by the particular circumstances very quickly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    MaxPB said:

    More letter writing sophistry. Expect the Tory poll lead to go up.
    I'm not making any claims about polling moves. But it is not sophistry.
    PM says not going back to austerity.
    Chancellor says we're going back to austerity.
    One of them is lying / not in possession of the facts
    Are the cuts the same as in 2010? Because that's the disputed claim.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    This FT opinion piece has received more than 1000 comments. Must be something of a record in recent times. This is a topic that clearly engages an important demographic, and they are not happy bunnies. Johnson is pretty much universally considered to be making a total cluster**** of this issue.

    ‘Scotland may be the price of Boris Johnson’s place in history’
    - UK prime minister will have to fight to save the Union from himself

    ...Mr Johnson helped cause the problem. The 2014 independence referendum should have killed the issue for a generation. But Brexit, which Scotland voted against, revived it. Scots then saw Mr Johnson topple Theresa May, because her approach prioritised saving the Union...

    ...He is now discussing a Scottish tour but this might go down as well as a royal progress by the conquering knights of Edward I. Mr Johnson is, in the words of one Unionist, “irredeemably toxic to Scots”.

    ...One leading unionist observes: “I am very pessimistic. The only real grounds for optimism is that people in London are now very worried and that the cabinet office is getting engaged.” Another adds: “London has now seen what they are dealing with. The SNP are not the Liberal Democrats.”

    ...UK dealings with the devolved administrations are characterised by an almost colonial mindset and need a rethink. One former Downing Street staffer said: “This is not just about politicians. Whitehall also too often treats the first ministers of Scotland and Wales like regional mayors rather than the leaders of countries.” 

    ...This will only get worse as the US trade talks reach a head. With vocal Scottish opposition to weakening food standards, Mr Johnson may be forced to choose between shoring up the Union and the prize of a US trade deal.

    That Unionists are waking up to the danger does not mean they are any closer to finding solutions. Most agree that they must find “an emotional argument” for the union. One also argues for small signals like changing the name of the Bank of England to the UK Central Bank.

    ...Generationally and politically the tide appears to be flowing towards independence. Mr Johnson’s temptation will be to smother Scotland with cash, and hope to prevent an SNP majority next year...

    ...Mr Johnson is drawn to such brinkmanship and sets great store in his political charm, but he knows his Brexit vision has powered the nationalist surge. If Scotland goes, it will be a calamity he has largely visited upon himself. And history will not be kind.

    https://www.ft.com/content/6929f1ca-69e7-419e-90b5-ca08a423004c

    45% of Scots voted Yes to independence in 2014, on the latest polling this year 43 to 50% of Scots would vote Yes including Don't Knows.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

    So really Brexit has not made that much difference and we know Boris respects the fact 2014 was a 'once in a generation referendum' anyway
    45% of Scots did not vote Yes - 45% of those voting did. Which means that your figures are not comparable as you are including DKs. And that Wiki page is out of date, it doesn't include recent polling.
    It does include recent polling, no poll this year has had Yes over 50% including don't knows and that goes right up to polling from the last month.

    As Quebec showed in 1995 don't knows tend to go No
    throw in the dead as NO next no doubt
    Do you think yes/no will be replaced with leave/remain next time?
    @kinabalu Been busy at work so late reply. I hope they change it though for me they should do it outside S30 , make it an election vote and then get on with the negotiations. No way they should be waiting on Boris agreeing, but beginning to think a lot of those at top of SNP are very happy coining it in and issuing crap bills etc in Scotland, seem to be doing everything but going for independence. I think SNP will get landslide next year and if they do not get themselves cracking that will be their last chance.
  • DjayMDjayM Posts: 21
    The big thing that could impede the vaccine programme is that side-effects emerge which have not come up in the trials....... No shit sherlock
This discussion has been closed.