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  • TresTres Posts: 2,785
    When I was a kid Scouts was for the normal kids and the Boys Brigades for the religious/sectarian mob.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    Videos from around March 12th by Halpern, Vallance and Harries looked to have aged appallingly.
    The most deadly groupthink in years.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Mango said:

    It is a thing, but I reckon the best label of that thing would be "crime". Now crime is a complex issue, and we could fill many a socially undistanced lecture theatre with academics with a multitude of views in how to address it, but I think one thing they would all agree on would that the police should on balance try to stop crime, and not commit more of it.

    In the meantime, keep digging.
    You're right, the US police must be rubbish, given the incredible numbers of black people slaughtering other black people in their cities.

    They must be sitting around in their cars all day, eating donuts.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    Videos from around March 12th by Halpern, Vallance and Harries looked to have aged appallingly.
    The most deadly groupthink in years.

    No one seems to have asked them the most basic questions, such as:

    1) what are the points of greatest uncertainty in your analysis?
    2) what if you're wrong about any/all of those?
    3) why do you think everyone else is following a different approach?

    This was a brand new disease, poorly understood (it still is) and they seem to have proceeded with blithe certainty about everything.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Actually JRM resigning with the others would be a very good thing for the party
    I'd have no objections to seeing them gone either!
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    No one seems to have asked them the most basic questions, such as:

    1) what are the points of greatest uncertainty in your analysis?
    2) what if you're wrong about any/all of those?
    3) why do you think everyone else is following a different approach?

    This was a brand new disease, poorly understood (it still is) and they seem to have proceeded with blithe certainty about everything.
    almost as if putting science correspondents on the daily briefings may have actually been a wiser move.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I do take @YBarddCwsc's point that a huge weight of responsibility lay on the scientists' shoulders. They should be allowed a lot of leeway for that.

    That said, they appear to have elected for a narrow path through the pandemic when others were looking at taking a broader path. The chances of falling off it were that much greater as a result.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,422

    'Wink 5 times if you're being held against your will'

    https://twitter.com/devisridhar/status/1271447120881606657?s=20

    Ooops!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    almost as if putting science correspondents on the daily briefings may have actually been a wiser move.
    This was a job for the politicians to undertake. They didn't.

    And of course, Boris Johnson didn't even turn up for the meetings to quiz them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550

    Triggeredtown - population you.
    I am merely offering to ease your "struggles" with various concepts and terms.

    But not to worry - it's not mandatory.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    LOL you ain't half in for a shock when you come out of your fantasy world.
    We have for the past two decades despite all the warnings about what would happen if we don't join the Euro and having half of the last decade been debating our EU membership and/or after the referendum.

    I don't see any reason for things to change. The UK is adept at adapting to the world. The EU is a sclerotic behemoth. Agile and nimble beats brute, lumbering monstrosities.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873

    almost as if putting science correspondents on the daily briefings may have actually been a wiser move.
    Question the wisdom of senior journalists (only generalists can be senior) being the journalists in the daily briefings is An Attack On Democracy And Freedom Of The Press.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    This was a job for the politicians to undertake. They didn't.

    And of course, Boris Johnson didn't even turn up for the meetings to quiz them.
    Except of course if its true as we discussed yesterday that if the SAGE scientists wanted to continue to continue down the Swedish route at least a week more and if its true that questioning from Cummings saw them change to lockdown, then Cumming and the governments questioning probably saved 50,000 lives from being lost. We'd probably be at over a hundred thousand dead now otherwise.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,766

    I'd have no objections to seeing them gone either!
    I hope they are told that if they rebel they will have the whip removed permanently, but I expect they will be given a Cummings-like set of excuses and excused by the bullshitter-in-chief.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    malcolmg said:

    Ha Ha Ha , I would not like you as a fortune teller
    I'm borderline spooky, Malcolm, all know that.

    Bet you all my wordly goods against a sausage roll that there is no WTO Brexit.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Except of course if its true as we discussed yesterday that if the SAGE scientists wanted to continue to continue down the Swedish route at least a week more and if its true that questioning from Cummings saw them change to lockdown, then Cumming and the governments questioning probably saved 50,000 lives from being lost. We'd probably be at over a hundred thousand dead now otherwise.
    I have no interest in ever engaging with you. Please desist.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,149

    This was a job for the politicians to undertake. They didn't.

    And of course, Boris Johnson didn't even turn up for the meetings to quiz them.
    It certainly would have been much better in holding the government.to account, rather than Prof Peston getting everything wrong as soon as it came to sciencey and mathsy stuff. Instead we just got 3 months of booyah stuff from these press conferences.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,010
    So George Osborne is to be replaced as Evening Standard editor by the sister of Samantha Cameron. Another shining example of how the elite has been laid low by the Brexit vote!!!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,272

    We have for the past two decades despite all the warnings about what would happen if we don't join the Euro and having half of the last decade been debating our EU membership and/or after the referendum.

    I don't see any reason for things to change. The UK is adept at adapting to the world. The EU is a sclerotic behemoth. Agile and nimble beats brute, lumbering monstrosities.
    "Big fucks small, always". Alfie, in Peaky Blinders.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    Wagner doesn't understand it seems that the legislation these regulations are being put through under was passed before Tony Blair even became Prime Minister.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,018

    I think Gutman is a Jewish name, no?

    Chandler is certainly teetering on the borderline here.
    I think the evidence supports Chandler on this point -
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/28/usa.biography
    ...he refused to join a La Jolla country club that kept out Jews....

    - but his views were very much of the time, with the treatment of Hispanic characters particularly derogatory.

    Having reread (after several decades) a couple of the novels fairly recently, I was surprised to recognise just how unpleasant some of it was.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    Scott_xP said:
    Seat of pants legislation? Is that the new name for statutory instruments?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,670

    So George Osborne is to be replaced as Evening Standard editor by the sister of Samantha Cameron. Another shining example of how the elite has been laid low by the Brexit vote!!!

    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1271449928628416514

    https://twitter.com/JeremyCliffe/status/1271452971067473926
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Maybe my cynicism is approaching Penarth levels but are elements of the Hard Left, bitter at the loss of Corbyn, driving this to undermine Starmer indirectly?
    Look at this cultist, believing that every problem the Dear Leader has is because of shadowy forces undermining him.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,983

    Actually JRM resigning with the others would be a very good thing for the party
    JRM, along with Francois, Cash, Baker, Redwood, IDS, Chope, Davis and Bridgen serve as a helpful reminder not to vote Conservative.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    It certainly would have been much better in holding the government.to account, rather than Prof Peston getting everything wrong as soon as it came to sciencey and mathsy stuff. Instead we just got 3 months of booyah stuff from these press conferences.
    3 months - and counting.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I have no interest in ever engaging with you. Please desist.
    No thanks.

    Its a public forum. If you have no interest in having your views challenged then you can either ignore viewpoints that differ to yours, or talk to a mirror.

    When you're ready to apologise for swearing earlier you can. I'm being the bigger person despite your swearing at me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,162

    So George Osborne is to be replaced as Evening Standard editor by the sister of Samantha Cameron. Another shining example of how the elite has been laid low by the Brexit vote!!!

    +1
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,149
    Why so many techty people on here today?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    Seat of pants legislation? Is that the new name for statutory instruments?
    The relevant legislation was passed in 1984, so perhaps some new newspeak terminology is appropriate.

    I think what Scott and Wagner are trying to say is that Johnson is doubleplusungood.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,996
    Any relation to Davina Sheffield who was a one time girlfriend of Prince Charles
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    No thanks.

    Its a public forum. If you have no interest in having your views challenged then you can either ignore viewpoints that differ to yours, or talk to a mirror.

    When you're ready to apologise for swearing earlier you can. I'm being the bigger person despite your swearing at me.
    I have no interest in engaging with a simpering cretin who is callous to the risks of pain and suffering that his prejudice leads to. So, and in full awareness of Mike's warning earlier, fuck off.

    If I am banned as a consequence, so be it. I won't be a moral vacuum, which is what you evidently are.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020

    I hope they are told that if they rebel they will have the whip removed permanently, but I expect they will be given a Cummings-like set of excuses and excused by the bullshitter-in-chief.
    If they rebel against an agreed deal that absolutely should be the response, following the precedence first set by John Major.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,149
    edited June 2020
    Andrew said:

    twitter.com/nigel0061/status/1271457188654059520

    Glad i got my reusable respirator mask before people really do start to cotton on to this mask thing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317

    Why so many techty people on here today?

    You got a problem with that?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,396
    F1: Azerbaijan, Japan, and Singapore are off:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1271454737553076224
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    Stocky said:

    Regarding the first para, wouldn`t it have been good if the EU had agreed an emergency brake on free movement for nations with high density already when Cameron tried for consessions pre-referendum. Could have avoided all of this.
    Yep. The land of lost content.

    As it is - oh dear.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098

    Glad i got my reusable respirator mask before people really do start to cotton on to this mask thing.
    My FFP2s for going to the supermarket and chinese are coming in handy.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited June 2020
    Nigelb said:

    I think the evidence supports Chandler on this point -
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/28/usa.biography
    ...he refused to join a La Jolla country club that kept out Jews....

    - but his views were very much of the time, with the treatment of Hispanic characters particularly derogatory.

    Having reread (after several decades) a couple of the novels fairly recently, I was surprised to recognise just how unpleasant some of it was.
    Oh, I don't think Chandler was personally antisemitic. He put up with Lillian Hellman as his girlf after all! (And she was genuinely obnoxious IMO)

    I was interested in whether Gutman veers into racial stereotyping.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,149
    RobD said:

    You got a problem with that?
    https://youtu.be/STIvNjWobzA
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656

    Wagner doesn't understand it seems that the legislation these regulations are being put through under was passed before Tony Blair even became Prime Minister.
    Incorrect. This statutory instrument is made under section 45R of the 1984 Act, which allows the SoS to introduce one without any form of resolution before the House in an emergency, but that section was only inserted into the 1984 Act by the Health and Social Care Act 2008.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Stocky said:

    "Big fucks small, always". Alfie, in Peaky Blinders.
    Its not true though.

    Without wanting to trigger @kinabalu the Prime Minister is apparently 40% bigger than Amir Khan, but if they got into a boxing ring my money would certainly be on the smaller and more nimble Khan over the weightier, stodgier unfit Prime Minister.

    Fit, nimble, strong and agile beats big, slow and unhealthy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873
    England regional case data out - following is by specimen date

    image
    image
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    eadric said:

    202 deaths in the UK today. Not brilliant

    Also: Sweden. Their case numbers are growing fast, another worrying sign



    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

    I've ben trying to find out if Sweden has simply expanded it's testing criteria. Previously they have been quite parsimonious in handing out tests.

    With such a surge in numbers you'd expect a rise in ICU cases and that hasn't a happened so I suspect it is just wider testing
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Oh, I don't think Chandler was personally antisemitic.
    I doubt he was, he married Monica.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,172

    F1: Azerbaijan, Japan, and Singapore are off:
    https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1271454737553076224

    Would be interesting if they do go to Portugal, and the Ferarri test track is also being considered!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    edited June 2020

    Its not true though.

    Without wanting to trigger @kinabalu the Prime Minister is apparently 40% bigger than Amir Khan, but if they got into a boxing ring my money would certainly be on the smaller and more nimble Khan over the weightier, stodgier unfit Prime Minister.

    Fit, nimble, strong and agile beats big, slow and unhealthy.
    More like 70% bigger.

    Our dreadful response to the 'rona ought to disabuse anyone of the notion that we're somehow a top rank welterweight anyway.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,031



    I don't see any reason for things to change. The UK is adept at adapting to the world. The EU is a sclerotic behemoth. Agile and nimble beats brute, lumbering monstrosities.

    Which is why Taiwan would kick China's arse if it came to it...
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656

    Why so many techty people on here today?

    I hadn’t noticed a preponderance of IT people personally.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:


    I've ben trying to find out if Sweden has simply expanded it's testing criteria. Previously they have been quite parsimonious in handing out tests.

    Tripled in last two months, currently about 7k/day. That's now a fairly decent number, about 50% more per capita than Italy for example.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550

    You're right, the US police must be rubbish, given the incredible numbers of black people slaughtering other black people in their cities.

    They must be sitting around in their cars all day, eating donuts.
    Sounds like black people oppressing and killing other black people is something you think should be an integral part of any discussion on racism. For context, I suppose. Would that be fair?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,272

    Its not true though.

    Without wanting to trigger @kinabalu the Prime Minister is apparently 40% bigger than Amir Khan, but if they got into a boxing ring my money would certainly be on the smaller and more nimble Khan over the weightier, stodgier unfit Prime Minister.

    Fit, nimble, strong and agile beats big, slow and unhealthy.
    Sorry Robert, I`m going to have to side with Peaky Blinders over you on this one.

    The full exchange:

    Alfie Solomons : Big fucks small always, actually. There is a fight going on out there between big and small. Big will fuck small.

    Thomas Shelby : Stay and watch the fight, Alfie.

    Alfie Solomons : No, you're all right. I already know who wins, don't I?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Andrew said:

    Tripled in last two months, currently about 7k/day.
    Positive tests started surging at the beginning of the month. Do you know if that correlates with increased testing?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,162

    Why so many techty people on here today?

    People have been tetchy since 2016 or thereabouts.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Andy_JS said:

    Reported today, not taking place today or yesterday. The real number for today is likely to be around 50 according to David Paton's figures.
    Today's NHS England Covid death count is 70 (that's total new deaths reported of course, not an absolute number for today or yesterday.)

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    That makes the reporting trend on consecutive Fridays, from the first available date in the series (April 3rd) onwards: 604, 866, 738, 587, 352, 332, 186, 121, 149, 123 and now 70.

    The numbers fluctuate but the general direction of travel is still downwards, and today's count is only about one-twelfth of the worst Friday figure, from April 10th. Progress continues, for now at least.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656

    Its not true though.

    Without wanting to trigger @kinabalu the Prime Minister is apparently 40% bigger than Amir Khan, but if they got into a boxing ring my money would certainly be on the smaller and more nimble Khan over the weightier, stodgier unfit Prime Minister.

    Fit, nimble, strong and agile beats big, slow and unhealthy.
    A better analogy would be Mark Francois v Johnny Vegas. I wouldn’t put money on either but, if pushed, the odds have to be on Vegas winning just be just sitting on Francois.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Mango said:

    Which is why Taiwan would kick China's arse if it came to it...
    Taiwan GDP per capita by PPP $57,214
    China GDP per capita by PPP $20,984

    Absolutely Taiwan kicks China's arse massively.

    Which would you rather us be like there - Taiwan or China? I have stated my preference, I'd rather be like Taiwan than China. Which would you prefer?
  • So, what? Its going to be a disaster but everyone should pretend its down to the stars?

    How about injecting some reality into the body politic instead of the white red and blue fantasy we currently have? Because pretending doesn't help solve the problem either and the problem is the wilful blindess to the country's actual problems and the continued game of blaming the EU for them rather than solving them.

    On that score I welcome Brexit (for the reasons Boris Johnson set out in his remain article), because it takes the scapegoat out of British Politics. I wonder who the new scapegoats will be?

    Once that blood-letting is over the country can retake its place as a functioning European nation.

    Until then the delusion and the behaviour it generates continues.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656
    It’s been a stupid message from the start that lost the referendum and held our side a hostage to fortune, it may be correct but people haven’t listened and are not going to start now. Time to change the record.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The great Sweden Mystery

    Skane County: Population 1,340,415, Deaths 205
    Västra Götaland County: Population 1,725,881, Deaths 647
    Stockholm County: Population 2,377,081, Deaths 2,185

    Skane has Malmo, Västra Götaland has Gothenburg, Stockholm has... er Stockholm.

    The death rate difference between Skane and Stockholm is staggering.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Alistair said:


    Positive tests started surging at the beginning of the month. Do you know if that correlates with increased testing?

    Looks like it:



  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873

    Today's NHS England Covid death count is 70 (that's total new deaths reported of course, not an absolute number for today or yesterday.)

    https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

    That makes the reporting trend on consecutive Fridays, from the first available date in the series (April 3rd) onwards: 604, 866, 738, 587, 352, 332, 186, 121, 149, 123 and now 70.

    The numbers fluctuate but the general direction of travel is still downwards, and today's count is only about one-twelfth of the worst Friday figure, from April 10th. Progress continues, for now at least.
    To put the numbers in graphical context -

    image
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    Positive tests started surging at the beginning of the month. Do you know if that correlates with increased testing?
    Answered my own question. Yes they did. You can stop panicking @eadric
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Stocky said:

    Sorry Robert, I`m going to have to side with Peaky Blinders over you on this one.

    The full exchange:

    Alfie Solomons : Big fucks small always, actually. There is a fight going on out there between big and small. Big will fuck small.

    Thomas Shelby : Stay and watch the fight, Alfie.

    Alfie Solomons : No, you're all right. I already know who wins, don't I?
    Is it wrong to admit I've never actually watched Peaky Blinders?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,983
    edited June 2020

    I have no interest in engaging with a simpering cretin who is callous to the risks of pain and suffering that his prejudice leads to. So, and in full awareness of Mike's warning earlier, fuck off.

    If I am banned as a consequence, so be it. I won't be a moral vacuum, which is what you evidently are.
    Off Topic

    There seems to have been something resembling bullying by some posters in response, especially to Alistair's views on Brexit. Unparliamentary language aside I for one can understand Alistair's frustration.

    My late father was a North Midlands RFU referee decades ago. His view after a player had thrown a punch was what provoked the punch in the first place.

    If people are to be shown red cards for their reaction, perhaps a review of what provoked that reaction could be looked at too.

    I have made comments, which I would normally avoid making, but some of the commentary by posters who would claim to be supportive of certain actions, are perhaps sometimes written to antagonise those with a more liberal viewpoint. Sometimes they do touch a nerve.

    Some posts regarding George Floyd, slavery and Black Lives Matter have been dreadful over the last week or so.

    PB is a wonderful resource. Many posters from all political persuasions can inspire and impress. It is not so inspirational or impressive when it is used by some posters as an alternative to ConHome or Labourlist.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Andrew said:

    Looks like it:



    Thanks. Interesting that detected cases stayed basically constant throughout May even though testing number increased.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873
    Alistair said:

    Thanks. Interesting that detected cases stayed basically constant throughout May even though testing number increased.
    Which suggested that either :

    - all the increased testing was on people who didn't have COVID19

    or

    - the cases were falling faster than the increase in tests.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2020
    Alistair said:


    Thanks. Interesting that detected cases stayed basically constant throughout May even though testing number increased.

    Possible policy change for who is getting tested might have had an impact:

    "Sweden said Tuesday it would make coronavirus testing available to people with milder symptoms as well as those working in critical services to avoid keeping them needlessly at home."
    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-sweden-ramp-coronavirus.html


    They've had quite a bit of trouble with getting testing numbers up to decent levels (sounds familiar!) - there was a promise of 14k/day a couple of months back but they're still a good way off.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Sounds like black people oppressing and killing other black people is something you think should be an integral part of any discussion on racism. For context, I suppose. Would that be fair?
    I don't know, it might contextualise things somewhat.

    If far more black people are being killed by black people than are being killed by white people, then which is the bigger problem? The evisceration of a community by itself, or police racism against that community?

    I'd argue its the former, but for Black Lives Matter its a subset of the latter.

    Who speaks for the very large numbers of victims of black on black crime?

    Who speaks for George Floyd's victims? does anybody think about they must have felt as their tormentor was lionised as a hero by world leaders?

    Personally, I think its pretty much nobody. It certainly isn't black lives matter.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873

    Off Topic

    There seems to have been something resembling bullying by some posters in response, especially to Alistair's views on Brexit. Unparliamentary language aside I for one can understand Alistair's frustration.

    My late father was a North Midlands RFU referee decades ago. His view after a player had thrown a punch was what provoked the punch in the first place.

    If people are to be shown red cards for their reaction, perhaps a review of what provoked that reaction could be looked at too.

    I have made comments, which I would normally avoid making, but some of the commentary by posters who would claim to be supportive of actions which perhaps are written to antagonise those with a more liberal viewpoint do sometimes touch a nerve.

    Some posts regarding George Floyd, slavery and Black Lives Matter have been dreadful.

    PB is a wonderful resource. Many posters from all political persuasions can inspire and impress. It is not so inspirational or impressive when it is used by some posters as an alternative to ConHome or Labourlist.
    Irregular verbs again, I think.

    I* am perfectly reasonable
    You are irrational
    He is a {insert insults here}

    *Personally, I am biased, aggressive, irrational and generally unhinged. And proud of that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,550
    edited June 2020

    Its not true though.

    Without wanting to trigger @kinabalu the Prime Minister is apparently 40% bigger than Amir Khan, but if they got into a boxing ring my money would certainly be on the smaller and more nimble Khan over the weightier, stodgier unfit Prime Minister.

    Fit, nimble, strong and agile beats big, slow and unhealthy.
    lol

    "Muscles" Johnson would wipe the floor with titchy little Khan surely.

    Can't believe you're dissing your man.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Most of Asia rolling its eyes at this point.


    https://twitter.com/HirokoTabuchi/status/1271418269573021696
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    edited June 2020

    I don't know, it might contextualise things somewhat.

    If far more black people are being killed by black people than are being killed by white people, then which is the bigger problem? The evisceration of a community by itself, or police racism against that community?

    I'd argue its the former, but for Black Lives Matter its a subset of the latter.

    Who speaks for the very large numbers of victims of black on black crime?

    Who speaks for George Floyd's victims? does anybody think about they must have felt as their tormentor was lionised as a hero by world leaders?

    Personally, I think its pretty much nobody. It certainly isn't black lives matter.
    One think is for certain, an 18 year old black man is 100 times more likely to be killed by another 18 year old black man than by a white policeman.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,983
    edited June 2020

    Irregular verbs again, I think.

    I* am perfectly reasonable
    You are irrational
    He is a {insert insults here}

    *Personally, I am biased, aggressive, irrational and generally unhinged. And proud of that.
    Your last statement is why most of us partake. However it is not unreasonable for you to expect me to be respectful towards someone who holds an alternative view.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I don't know, it might contextualise things somewhat.

    If far more black people are being killed by black people than are being killed by white people, then which is the bigger problem? The evisceration of a community by itself, or police racism against that community?

    I'd argue its the former, but for Black Lives Matter its a subset of the latter.

    Who speaks for the very large numbers of victims of black on black crime?

    Who speaks for George Floyd's victims? does anybody think about they must have felt as their tormentor was lionised as a hero by world leaders?

    Personally, I think its pretty much nobody. It certainly isn't black lives matter.
    Could you give a list of the people who lionised him and in what way they lionised him?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647
    DougSeal said:

    A better analogy would be Mark Francois v Johnny Vegas. I wouldn’t put money on either but, if pushed, the odds have to be on Vegas winning just be just sitting on Francois.
    Yeah there's a reason there are weight classes in combat sports. Amir Khan vs BoJo BojO would get sparked out. Amir Khan vs Joe Joyce Amir is in some kind of trouble.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873

    Your last statement is why most of us partake. It is not unreasonable for you to expect me to be respectful towards someone who holds an alternative view.
    It's more that every time I have met someone who proclaims "I am above the fray - my noble soul allows me to be the unbiased judge of all"*, I find I am dealing with crazed partisan.

    An American relative who does pro bono civil rights work, says that in a deposition, the moment he starts hearing about how unbiased someone is, he starts multiplying the damages.

    *Or equivalent statements
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    edited June 2020
    It's had many ripples outward but the problem at the heart of the recent unrest was the fact that Derek Chauvin knelt on a subdued suspect (FLoyd)'s neck for 8 minutes and 34 seconds.
    That's not some split second fight or flight response, he had plenty of time to cuff Floyd.
    It's one of the most disgusting killings I've seen in years.
    It's completely indefensible, and my instinct is always to defend the police having never known an uncle who was murdered whilst on active duty.
    And if I'm appalled by it, just imagine a black person's view in Minneapolis.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,272
    edited June 2020
    Edit - block quotes are buggered today
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,983

    It's more that every time I have met someone who proclaims "I am above the fray - my noble soul allows me to be the unbiased judge of all"*, I find I am dealing with crazed partisan.

    An American relative who does pro bono civil rights work, says that in a deposition, the moment he starts hearing about how unbiased someone is, he starts multiplying the damages.

    *Or equivalent statements
    I am not claiming to be above the fray, quite the opposite if you read what I wrote.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,794
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656
    edited June 2020

    I don't know, it might contextualise things somewhat.

    If far more black people are being killed by black people than are being killed by white people, then which is the bigger problem? The evisceration of a community by itself, or police racism against that community?

    I'd argue its the former, but for Black Lives Matter its a subset of the latter.

    Who speaks for the very large numbers of victims of black on black crime?

    Who speaks for George Floyd's victims? does anybody think about they must have felt as their tormentor was lionised as a hero by world leaders?

    Personally, I think its pretty much nobody. It certainly isn't black lives matter.
    He did his time for armed robbery, got out, moved to Minneapolis to start over, largely kept his nose clean, found God, even filmed an anti–gun violence video. He wasn’t a model person by any means but he was a model ex-con who paid his debt to his victims and to society by spending five years in prison. He did everything a criminal is supposed to do to rehabilitate himself afterwards. He was an example to ex-cons. But you are suggesting that, rather than be applauded for turning his life around, he should not be grieved after being tortured to death by an agent of the State? Really?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    Maybe, but they still aren't testing many. On the list of countries by tests per million population, Sweden is down at number 59, behind countries like Chile and Kazakhstan.

    Interestingly, on that same list, the UK is now the third best big country in the world (for tests per M) - behind only Russia and Spain, and ahead of Germany, Singapore and Australia, for example

    There isn't much to be cheerful about, but maybe that is worth a tiny yay
    I do wish we knew how many people we've tested though ^^;;;;;

    We ought to be able to split to "positive test", "negative test", "test not yet returned", "test returned, not yet analysed", "inconclusive test"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,670
    Pulpstar said:

    It's had many ripples outward but the problem at the heart of the recent unrest was the fact that Derek Chauvin knelt on a subdued suspect (FLoyd)'s neck for 8 minutes and 34 seconds.
    That's not some split second fight or flight response, he had plenty of time to cuff Floyd.
    It's one of the most disgusting killings I've seen in years.
    It's completely indefensible, and my instinct is always to defend the police having never known an uncle who was murdered whilst on active duty.
    And if I'm appalled by it, just imagine a black person's view in Minneapolis.

    https://twitter.com/journodave/status/1271468683437789184
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,647

    I don't know, it might contextualise things somewhat.

    If far more black people are being killed by black people than are being killed by white people, then which is the bigger problem? The evisceration of a community by itself, or police racism against that community?

    I'd argue its the former, but for Black Lives Matter its a subset of the latter.

    Who speaks for the very large numbers of victims of black on black crime?

    Who speaks for George Floyd's victims? does anybody think about they must have felt as their tormentor was lionised as a hero by world leaders?

    Personally, I think its pretty much nobody. It certainly isn't black lives matter.
    It comes back to Cummings, I'm afraid.

    Joe Public breaking lockdown rules = bad.
    Someone who devised the lockdown rules breaking the lockdown rules = far, far worse.

    Joe Public (black or white) killing Joe Public (black or white) = bad
    Someone charged with upholding the law and keeping the peace killing Joe Public = far, far worse.
    Someone charged with upholding the law and keeping the peace killing Joe Public when it appears that Joe Public had his rights violated and was discriminated against = worse yet.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    eadric said:

    Have the police offered ANY explanation why he knelt on a clearly subdued, unresisting, unarmed man for such a hideously long time?

    I've not seen any attempt to rationalise it. So it does look like grotesque and cold-blooded murder.
    If past events are anything to go by, he'll be retiring on a full pension. The whole police system in the US is corrupt.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,963
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    Er, I think it's the protestors who've been playing with fire as they are the ones attacking the Churchill statue, defacing it, and trying to get murals of Churchill pulled down.

    https://twitter.com/habibi_uk/status/1271091977518546949?s=20

    Or calling Churchill a c*nt

    https://twitter.com/s711art/status/1271155615126167552?s=20
    Trying to think where that is. Is it on the City Churches?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,098
    RobD said:

    If past events are anything to go by, he'll be retiring on a full pension. The whole police system in the US is corrupt.
    I don't think he will be. Not this time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,873

    I am not claiming to be above the fray, quite the opposite if you read what I wrote.
    I know - I was responding to the idea that all the insults having been flowing one way...

    Fun story - the American relative I mention is part of a family of lawyers going back to before WWII. They did Pro Bono civil rights work then, as well.

    Since lawyers were a target, they took bodyguards along. Since the threat often was local cops, the bodyguards were.... interesting guys from the neighbourhood (Jewish).

    Yes, the way it worked was that the guys they hired spoke to (or worked for) Jewish mob. Who asked their friends in the Italian Mob to speak to Chicago. Who spoke to the Dixie Mafia. Who made it clear to the local yokels that nothing was to happen....

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,317
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't think he will be. Not this time.
    We can hope. You are right though, utterly senseless.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,963
    I expect a deal will be done because Bozo knows the right wing press will big up anything with his name attached to it and he can just rebrand another capitulation as the best deal ever.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656
    Pulpstar said:

    It's had many ripples outward but the problem at the heart of the recent unrest was the fact that Derek Chauvin knelt on a subdued suspect (FLoyd)'s neck for 8 minutes and 34 seconds.
    That's not some split second fight or flight response, he had plenty of time to cuff Floyd.
    It's one of the most disgusting killings I've seen in years.
    It's completely indefensible, and my instinct is always to defend the police having never known an uncle who was murdered whilst on active duty.
    And if I'm appalled by it, just imagine a black person's view in Minneapolis.

    And it came hot on the heels of this, a young EMT working double shifts during the COVID19 outbreak shot by cops who came to the wrong apartment as she slept. Her boyfriend, who returned fire, not knowing they were police, has been charged with attempted murder. These protests have not happened just as a result of George Floyds murder.

    https://twitter.com/emarvelous/status/1260030673521270787
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Off Topic

    There seems to have been something resembling bullying by some posters in response, especially to Alistair's views on Brexit. Unparliamentary language aside I for one can understand Alistair's frustration.

    My late father was a North Midlands RFU referee decades ago. His view after a player had thrown a punch was what provoked the punch in the first place.

    If people are to be shown red cards for their reaction, perhaps a review of what provoked that reaction could be looked at too.

    I have made comments, which I would normally avoid making, but some of the commentary by posters who would claim to be supportive of certain actions, are perhaps sometimes written to antagonise those with a more liberal viewpoint. Sometimes they do touch a nerve.

    Some posts regarding George Floyd, slavery and Black Lives Matter have been dreadful over the last week or so.

    PB is a wonderful resource. Many posters from all political persuasions can inspire and impress. It is not so inspirational or impressive when it is used by some posters as an alternative to ConHome or Labourlist.
    A transparent attempt to win the war by lofty generalisation after a week of bruising defeat in each and every individual battle. Nobody has claimed that black lives matter more or less than other lives, not by so much as .001%. They certainly matter more to the average PBer than to that appalling POS George Floyd, because I don't suppose any of us have ever pointed a loaded weapon at a black woman (unless you have something to share?) It's not as if anyone is advocating a change of government policy to a "black lives matter about 30% as much as other sorts" approach, or that we should be complacent about an epidemic of killings of black people by white policemen that disfigures UK society.

    And I don't think anyone - and I mean anyone - disputes the incomprehensible evil of the European Atlantic slave trade. You may have misunderstood some crucial parts of the argument.

    tldr: why don'y you move to Minnesota?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,027

    Maybe my cynicism is approaching Penarth levels but are elements of the Hard Left, bitter at the loss of Corbyn, driving this to undermine Starmer indirectly?
    Lots of people came into the Labour Party on Corbyn's watch who should never been there. It shamed the party, ex SWP members, anti-semites etc etc. Lots of decent people left.

    Those people are not going to disappear overnight and I reckon Starmer has 1 to 2 years at most to clear out those that bring the party into disrepute. He has started on the right track getting rid of the likes of Formby, Milne etc. He must carry on and he must be ruthless. He must do what KInnock did to Militant Tendancy.

    A year from now any Labour MP demanding that a statue of Churchill be torn down should politely be told that the Labour Party isn't the place for them.

    The right wing media will publicise and magnify every incident. Starmer has to ensure that there is very little for them to go on.

This discussion has been closed.