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We have accurate stats from which we can extrapolate. The excess deaths figure, and while it doesn't tell the whole story, tells a decent one. It is a figure that illustrates trends and can be accurately compared across the world. Government has preferred to use a variety of fatality figures based on deaths in hospital, then deaths in care homes then deaths in the community. That measurement has been an unnecessary dogs dinner, but as it implies fewer people have succumbed it is preferred.squareroot2 said:
Typically we play by the rules ..other countries have no such scruples.Mexicanpete said:
For the most part they are conveniently inacurate, as it would seem are ours.squareroot2 said:
No it doesnt make it alright but i question the veracity of other countries figures...Mexicanpete said:
Well that must make it alright then.squareroot2 said:
We dont know that we have been the worst. I think there has been a lot of duplicity about the figures. Look at Russia for starters.Pulpstar said:
The temerity to ask difficult questions of the government in a pandemic where we've been one of the worst performing nations on earth.squareroot2 said:It wasn't me. I am a Tory remainer and i would not give Starmer a positive vote. He is a shit of the first order. ..playing politics over people dying... Revolting.
The horror !0 -
truly bizarre, an article clearly written to turn people off XR, composed with a tone of almost religious fervour.FrancisUrquhart said:
It isn't everybody, but the organizers. You don't have to look that hard to find that the eco-fascists lot have a very long history of far left extremism. What they have found is a cause that have wider public support and can use that agenda to promote their wider vision.kle4 said:
It's a bit like being green - why is it necessary to come with so much anti capitalist stuff? It isn't in other countries.FrancisUrquhart said:We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
Marxism...
And shock horror, you read an article by one of the founders and it is again all British Empire, white-supremacy, patriacrchy, class stuff.
Extinction Rebellion isn’t about the Climate
https://medium.com/extinction-rebellion/extinction-rebellion-isnt-about-the-climate-42a0a73d9d490 -
So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?0 -
Reported casesMalmesbury said:England case numbers out - by specimen date we have -
England
22 May to 28 May 3561
29 May to 4 June 2873
R = 2873/3561 = 0.81
London R=170/188 = 0.90
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Steir Karmer.Malmesbury said:
We collectively apologise to you and Lord Keith, the LOTOAnabobazina said:
K E I RLuckyguy1983 said:
Very hard to do without it looking like a creepy masonic initiation of some kind isn't it? Not wholly successful, but decent attempt to look human doing it by Kier and Angela. The democrats in the scarves and masks looked truly horrifying.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
K – E – I - R
Why can't PBers spell the Loto's name FFS?0 -
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
???MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
PLEASE reflect on this post.
You're projecting exactly what you have been so eloquently bemoaning.0 -
Thread on the JK Rowling TERF (sic) argument:
https://twitter.com/Lachlan_Edi/status/1270274248754507776?s=201 -
Starting to feel like this group is the new '2010 LDs' that Ed M was going to secure....0
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Yes they will be on 0pc Christmas.eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
As much as apartheid did but we were right to join the fight against apartheid.DavidL said:So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?0 -
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
FT has an interesting report that Shaun Bailey is set to be ditched as tory mayoral candidate.
He didn;t even kneel. He merely praised policemen who did.
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The Castrated Bull Whisperer, Steer Calmer?IshmaelZ said:
Steir Karmer.Malmesbury said:
We collectively apologise to you and Lord Keith, the LOTOAnabobazina said:
K E I RLuckyguy1983 said:
Very hard to do without it looking like a creepy masonic initiation of some kind isn't it? Not wholly successful, but decent attempt to look human doing it by Kier and Angela. The democrats in the scarves and masks looked truly horrifying.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
K – E – I - R
Why can't PBers spell the Loto's name FFS?0 -
But here's the funny thing (and I despise the anti-progress Green Party every bit as much as I despise Jeremy Corbyn), without the eco-fascists, would electric cars have had the same level of government support? Or, without the IRA, would there have been any reform of Northern Ireland?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
Just as maybe you need an occasional Donald Trump to drag politicians back to caring more about their own populations.
Maybe we need the crazies on the edge sometimes.0 -
You didn't get the memo, we must kneel to protest our disgust at the imperialist, capitalist, white-supremacist, patriarchy that run the countries institutions.DavidL said:So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?0 -
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
Why can my mother's cleaner see her in her house but I can't?rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
usw0 -
Taking the knee is a non inclusive gesture as anyone over 50 and with creaking bones will testify. I might get all in a rage about this non non inclusivity and contact SAGA . Seriously if we have to do virtue signallling gestures lets make our own up not import from the USA (where their society is the casue of all this aggro with its over emotional and identity driven culture)0
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That would be a very odd reason to drop him.contrarian said:FT has an interesting report that Shaun Bailey is set to be ditched as tory mayoral candidate.
He didn;t even kneel. He merely praised policemen who did.0 -
I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high motive, viz, to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human system it fail victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. So I think Bellamy is right in seeing the gradual decline of capitalism.FrancisUrquhart said:We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
Marxism...0 -
It's a meme which has evolved. It at least works as a visual message of support for any cause one might choose. Its better than overdoing the attempt to impose a sense of global unanimity onto very different national situations as is happening.DavidL said:So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?0 -
No scientists again.
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Yup, it's not just me that's noticed. Messages from a friend of mine who was in the JLM and he's mad as hell that this qualification was made on racism.0
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Ah, right.FrancisUrquhart said:
You didn't get the memo, we must kneel to protest our disgust at the imperialist, capitalist, white-supremacist, patriarchy that run the countries institutions.DavidL said:So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?
Are we sure that they are bothered? And was anyone brave enough to ask the Home Secretary her views after yesterday?0 -
Cant really understand this school business. Different places cannot be directly compared but if others are not struggling so much it provokes many questions why we are.0
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Germany has fewer daily cases and deaths right now.rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
The part I bolded makes me think you already understand the answer.DavidL said:So this kneeing thing. Started off in the NFL as a way of not standing to attention when the US National Anthem was played because the US's record on treating black people was really nothing to be proud of.
What's it got to do with us exactly?0 -
Is there a book on what date they will abandon 2m distance?
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Kids don't spread it.Pulpstar said:
Germany has fewer daily cases and deaths right now.rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
On the edge being the key phrase. Very bad things happened when they control things rather than provoke a reaction.rcs1000 said:
But here's the funny thing (and I despise the anti-progress Green Party every bit as much as I despise Jeremy Corbyn), without the eco-fascists, would electric cars have had the same level of government support? Or, without the IRA, would there have been any reform of Northern Ireland?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
Just as maybe you need an occasional Donald Trump to drag politicians back to caring more about their own populations.
Maybe we need the crazies on the edge sometimes.0 -
Just went into town centre and there are now arrows painted on the pavement to indicate which side of the road you can walk on and in which direction. This country has gone collectively mental. When are these absurdities going to be called out??0
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Why is Starmer equivocating about racism? Is racism against black people somehow worse than racism against Asians or Jews? Why make that qualification, why not stand/kneel against all racism. Being called a "paki" is every bit as demoralising you might imagine, has that not registered with the Labour leader?!kinabalu said:
???MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
PLEASE reflect on this post.
You're projecting exactly what you have been so eloquently bemoaning.0 -
Based upon what? It's highly unlikely he would.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what the Right's reaction will be when Boris 'takes the knee' (as I reckon he will).BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/12703743884881674280 -
No point politically to it (and its all virtue signalling anyway ) , the kneelers wont suddenly vote for a capitalist pig like a tory and it will put off a lot of tories who may vote UKIP and therefore promote even more right wing views. Boris should just be sensible and get on with it and get on with leading a country away from damaging identity politicsDura_Ace said:
They'll love it. Tories are right into identity politics these days.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what the Right's reaction will be when Boris 'takes the knee' (as I reckon he will).BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/12703743884881674281 -
I hope than far more people than Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this - skin colour is irrelevant (as always) - and I think they will - Starmer is a poseur. He`s reminding me of that prize bell-end Trudeau.MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.1 -
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.TheScreamingEagles said:
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.1 -
What makes you think that's happening?rcs1000 said:Just as maybe you need an occasional Donald Trump to drag politicians back to caring more about their own populations.
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I see the journalists have switched to attacking the government for not removing restrictions in the name of businesses.0
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This ITV guy is good. Not letting them off the hook.0
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But a problem like this would go beyond political failures and speak to far deeper issues. Competent administration happens around crap leaders all the time .(yes the reverse happens too but I'd guess less frequently)TheScreamingEagles said:
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn0 -
Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.0
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I think schools should be open for parents on a voluntary basis, just pointing out the comparison with Germany is fatuous as they've handled the pandemic better than us. Older kids and teachers can definitely catch/spread it too. So that's a factor.rottenborough said:
Kids don't spread it.Pulpstar said:
Germany has fewer daily cases and deaths right now.rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
Anyway where's the phone app...0 -
apparently 'Sir Keir' means 'bell end' in farsi....Stocky said:
I hope than far more people than Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this - skin colour is irrelevant (as always) - and I think they will - Starmer is a poseur. He`s reminding me of that prize bell-end Trudeau.MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.0 -
If Boris were to 'take the knee', personally I wouldn't trouble him to get back up. Healthy contempt for (and from) the tsars of political correctness is one of the few things he has going for him at the minute.Brom said:
Based upon what? It's highly unlikely he would.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what the Right's reaction will be when Boris 'takes the knee' (as I reckon he will).BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/12703743884881674280 -
We have many things we could learn from the USA but race relations and identity politics isn't one of them . So its a shame that Keir Starmer expresses himself this way . He is over 50 and usually sensible and sincere .He just looks false and american1
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As with Churchill and his V-sign, Boris loves a good gesture. Remember how he came out to clap the NHS even when he was ill will Covid? I bet he can't wait to get down there.Brom said:
Based upon what? It's highly unlikely he would.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what the Right's reaction will be when Boris 'takes the knee' (as I reckon he will).BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/12703743884881674280 -
The thing that is killing the revival in all sectors is the two metre rule.
There's no need for it, few other countries have it, and the scientists can't even provide a medical justification for it. They just 'feel its right'
But Johnson is so frightened of his own shadow he won't make a decision and get rid of it.
What a coward.1 -
I do think that, for all the police are clearly out of control in the US, there is a deeper problem in that country than just the police. Robert Smithson pointed out yesterday that the US police killed 5 time more people in one year than our police have in their history.FrancisUrquhart said:
In the UK? There are thankfully very few instances of the police killing people full stop, and since the case of Stephen Lawrence 27 years ago, the police have undergone a lot of reform. Jean Charles de Menezes is obviously the one where the police actions are seriously questionable.logical_song said:
Maybe some don't like being killed by policemen?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
We aren't the US, gunning down a 1000 members of the public a year.
But it is also worth noting that since 1900, 253 British police officers have been murdered whilst doing their duty. That is in 120 years (though it does exclude NI with the Troubles) and averages just over 2 a year
In 2019 89 US police officers were killed whilst on duty. That was actually a massive fall from the previous year when 144 were killed.
More shocking still, between 1980 and 2015, 260,000 black men died violently in the US. Overall, murders in the US - black and white, male and female - are running at 14,000 a year, almost half of those being people between the ages of 17 and 30.
The issue in the US appears to me to be the acceptance of casual violence on all sides. Until that is solved I am not sure there will be any solution to one specific part of it.
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On the other hand, my (primary) kid's place have announced that they are re-opening on a 2 day a week rota from Monday. Which, assuming no gremlins appear, I can imagine extending to all year groups before the summer holidays. Not perfect for freeing up working parents, but it ticks the boxes of safeguarding, education and socialisation. And whether we like it or not, there's enough virus still out there that business as usual isn't a prudent move yet.eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
The trouble with the government's original plan (everyone in years R, 1 and 6 every day from June 1) was that it didn't work, wasn't particularly fair and was announced too close to the target date for schools to implement.
I do hope the government don't have any other difficult plans they want to put into practice without giving time for people to work out the nitty-gritty.0 -
How could anyone feel positive about Starmer?1
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The unshuttering of the schools has also been pretty limited in other countries.kle4 said:Cant really understand this school business. Different places cannot be directly compared but if others are not struggling so much it provokes many questions why we are.
Fact is, unless the virus fades away to almost nothing then the schools are sunk and so, by extension, are the children and their parents. The better schools will try to keep the kids engaged and learning properly with a mixture 1-2 days per week in classroom and inferior online courses the rest of the time, but childrens' education will be crippled and a huge number of working parents will be sacked as this drags on through the Autumn, and the Winter, and into 2021, and quite possibly 2022 and 2023.
A whole generation is on its way to the scrapheap.1 -
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You having a senior moment? That was Casino Royale.kinabalu said:
???MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
PLEASE reflect on this post.
You're projecting exactly what you have been so eloquently bemoaning.0 -
How many children do you have (just curious)?eadric said:
YesTOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
And in the meantime we can all watch these fucking hipster revolutionaries crowding together to protest about awful white people, with no redress, indeed with government praise and encouragement
And my fucking kids can't get an education. Can't grow up normally
Beyond angry0 -
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.kle4 said:Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
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It's pathetic performative nonsense for Starmer to kneel, just like when the US cops and politicians do it. If he wants to stand with black people he should propose a policy program that will actually help them. Using the right hashtags when it becomes politically expedient to do so helps nobodystate_go_away said:We have many things we could learn from the USA but race relations and identity politics isn't one of them . So its a shame that Keir Starmer expresses himself this way . He is over 50 and usually sensible and sincere .He just looks false and american
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Our holiday (On hold) won't even break the 2 metre rule yet it's banned by fiat still...0
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My worry is that people driving this would accept the removal of images of intellectual heroes they admire so long as they can get a lot more taken down.rottenborough said:0 -
Who was Mr Angry? If he wants a formal, published review the answer will be 2m. They coukd probably reduce it outside, but then we will have two standards and everyone will say it's too complicatedtlg86 said:I see the journalists have switched to attacking the government for not removing restrictions in the name of businesses.
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Thank goodness, they were to be my competitors in a few years.Black_Rook said:
The unshuttering of the schools has also been pretty limited in other countries.kle4 said:Cant really understand this school business. Different places cannot be directly compared but if others are not struggling so much it provokes many questions why we are.
Fact is, unless the virus fades away to almost nothing then the schools are sunk and so, by extension, are the children and their parents. The better schools will try to keep the kids engaged and learning properly with a mixture 1-2 days per week in classroom and inferior online courses the rest of the time, but childrens' education will be crippled and a huge number of working parents will be sacked as this drags on through the Autumn, and the Winter, and into 2021, and quite possibly 2022 and 2023.
A whole generation is on its way to the scrapheap.0 -
Yes the last thing we need is damaging identity politics, and the man who fronted the Vote Leave campaign is certainly the man to save us from it.state_go_away said:
No point politically to it (and its all virtue signalling anyway ) , the kneelers wont suddenly vote for a capitalist pig like a tory and it will put off a lot of tories who may vote UKIP and therefore promote even more right wing views. Boris should just be sensible and get on with it and get on with leading a country away from damaging identity politicsDura_Ace said:
They'll love it. Tories are right into identity politics these days.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what the Right's reaction will be when Boris 'takes the knee' (as I reckon he will).BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
PB Tories, please never change.1 -
Yes, but it`s not intending to actually help anyone it is. It`s all about signalling isn`t it.Stereotomy said:
It's pathetic performative nonsense for Starmer to kneel, just like when the US cops and politicians do it. If he wants to stand with black people he should propose a policy program that will actually help them. Using the right hashtags when it becomes politically expedient to do so helps nobodystate_go_away said:We have many things we could learn from the USA but race relations and identity politics isn't one of them . So its a shame that Keir Starmer expresses himself this way . He is over 50 and usually sensible and sincere .He just looks false and american
0 -
The irony is that Corbyn, keen as he was not to make it all about the Jews, was at pains always to include "and other instances..." on Holocaust Memorial Day when making speeches.MaxPB said:
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.kle4 said:Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
How easy would it have been for SKS to do the same on this. I think it is a mis-step and I wouldn't be surprised if there is an addendum/clarification shortly. At least I hope there will be.
That said I want to put it down to cock-up not conspiracy but that's his last life.0 -
Says the man who was so desperate to shut down the whole country at the start of this crisis.eadric said:
YesTOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
And in the meantime we can all watch these fucking hipster revolutionaries crowding together to protest about awful white people, with no redress, indeed with government praise and encouragement
And my fucking kids can't get an education. Can't grow up normally
Beyond angry
You are reaping what you sowed.3 -
Ironic that a populist shit is running to.replace a populist shit.contrarian said:
apparently 'Sir Keir' means 'bell end' in farsi....Stocky said:
I hope than far more people than Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this - skin colour is irrelevant (as always) - and I think they will - Starmer is a poseur. He`s reminding me of that prize bell-end Trudeau.MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.0 -
Whilst getting children back to school is clearly an important aim, doing so in such a way as to avoid a second lockdown, in conjunction with other easings, is just as important for these children and society.Black_Rook said:
The unshuttering of the schools has also been pretty limited in other countries.kle4 said:Cant really understand this school business. Different places cannot be directly compared but if others are not struggling so much it provokes many questions why we are.
Fact is, unless the virus fades away to almost nothing then the schools are sunk and so, by extension, are the children and their parents. The better schools will try to keep the kids engaged and learning properly with a mixture 1-2 days per week in classroom and inferior online courses the rest of the time, but childrens' education will be crippled and a huge number of working parents will be sacked as this drags on through the Autumn, and the Winter, and into 2021, and quite possibly 2022 and 2023.
A whole generation is on its way to the scrapheap.
You're tending towards hyperbole with that last sentence. I missed a big chunk of primary education through regular (6 x a year for a few years) tonsillitis and a spell of anxiety related depression, too - probably 6 months all in all. Didn't stop me passing the 11+ and getting a good degree.1 -
When the public have widespread access to guns, so do the criminals, so the police have them. And in some parts of the US, the sort of weaponry you can purchase are just insane and of course "open carry" laws.Richard_Tyndall said:
I do think that, for all the police are clearly out of control in the US, there is a deeper problem in that country than just the police. Robert Smithson pointed out yesterday that the US police killed 5 time more people in one year than our police have in their history.FrancisUrquhart said:
In the UK? There are thankfully very few instances of the police killing people full stop, and since the case of Stephen Lawrence 27 years ago, the police have undergone a lot of reform. Jean Charles de Menezes is obviously the one where the police actions are seriously questionable.logical_song said:
Maybe some don't like being killed by policemen?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
We aren't the US, gunning down a 1000 members of the public a year.
But it is also worth noting that since 1900, 253 British police officers have been murdered whilst doing their duty. That is in 120 years (though it does exclude NI with the Troubles) and averages just over 2 a year
In 2019 89 US police officers were killed whilst on duty. That was actually a massive fall from the previous year when 144 were killed.
More shocking still, between 1980 and 2015, 260,000 black men died violently in the US. Overall, murders in the US - black and white, male and female - are running at 14,000 a year, almost half of those being people between the ages of 17 and 30.
The issue in the US appears to me to be the acceptance of casual violence on all sides. Until that is solved I am not sure there will be any solution to one specific part of it.
The stark contrast between US, is Canada. Very similar in many ways, but they have much stricter rules on guns.1 -
A friend likes to remind me that whilst the Germans have a scientist in charge we have a classicist.TOPPING said:
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
That's got to be reason why our numbers are so bad and the German figures are so good.0 -
I'm not saying it cannot be criticised, I just think it's a bit early to write him off entirely.MaxPB said:
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.kle4 said:Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
0 -
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.rcs1000 said:
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.2 -
It is worth pointing out that the US police deaths at the hands of criminals (which is a subset of the number above) are incredibly rare.Richard_Tyndall said:
I do think that, for all the police are clearly out of control in the US, there is a deeper problem in that country than just the police. Robert Smithson pointed out yesterday that the US police killed 5 time more people in one year than our police have in their history.FrancisUrquhart said:
In the UK? There are thankfully very few instances of the police killing people full stop, and since the case of Stephen Lawrence 27 years ago, the police have undergone a lot of reform. Jean Charles de Menezes is obviously the one where the police actions are seriously questionable.logical_song said:
Maybe some don't like being killed by policemen?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
We aren't the US, gunning down a 1000 members of the public a year.
But it is also worth noting that since 1900, 253 British police officers have been murdered whilst doing their duty. That is in 120 years (though it does exclude NI with the Troubles) and averages just over 2 a year
In 2019 89 US police officers were killed whilst on duty. That was actually a massive fall from the previous year when 144 were killed.
More shocking still, between 1980 and 2015, 260,000 black men died violently in the US. Overall, murders in the US - black and white, male and female - are running at 14,000 a year, almost half of those being people between the ages of 17 and 30.
The issue in the US appears to me to be the acceptance of casual violence on all sides. Until that is solved I am not sure there will be any solution to one specific part of it.
https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/
0 -
Don't "we" regularly deface Marx's grave in Highgate Cemetery anyway.rottenborough said:0 -
Making gestures can be an important part of something. But it must be a part, not the whole obviously.Stocky said:
Yes, but it`s not intending to actually help anyone it is. It`s all about signalling isn`t it.Stereotomy said:
It's pathetic performative nonsense for Starmer to kneel, just like when the US cops and politicians do it. If he wants to stand with black people he should propose a policy program that will actually help them. Using the right hashtags when it becomes politically expedient to do so helps nobodystate_go_away said:We have many things we could learn from the USA but race relations and identity politics isn't one of them . So its a shame that Keir Starmer expresses himself this way . He is over 50 and usually sensible and sincere .He just looks false and american
0 -
Solipsistic classicist twat, you mean. I don't think Angela is any of those things.TheScreamingEagles said:
A friend likes to remind that whilst the Germans have a scientist in charge we have a classicist.TOPPING said:
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
That's got to be reason why our numbers are so bad and the German figures are so good.0 -
If you believe in Laloux's understanding of the evolution of forms of human organization, capitalism will subsist alongside the organizational forms which preceded it, even while other, better forms of self-organizing emerge and become dominant.Stereotomy said:
I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high motive, viz, to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human system it fail victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. So I think Bellamy is right in seeing the gradual decline of capitalism.FrancisUrquhart said:We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
Marxism...
I am hopeful that we are seeing the end of rampant capitalism, which has denuded and polluted the planet, and are moving on to a more sustainable relationship between materialistic economics and personal fulfillment on the one hand, and the earth's resources and habitats on the other.1 -
I also want to see the author of "picaninnies" and "watermelon smiles" challenge the Labour leader over racism at PMQs...OnlyLivingBoy said:Yes the last thing we need is damaging identity politics, and the man who fronted the Vote Leave campaign is certainly the man to save us from it.
PB Tories, please never change.0 -
Still plenty of the economy to unlock before the 2 metre rule needs ditching. Caravan/self stay stays overnight wanted by myself, colleague and fiancees parents.JohnLilburne said:
Who was Mr Angry? If he wants a formal, published review the answer will be 2m. They coukd probably reduce it outside, but then we will have two standards and everyone will say it's too complicatedtlg86 said:I see the journalists have switched to attacking the government for not removing restrictions in the name of businesses.
0 -
I am bemused by this. I thought that primary schools opening was to be the start and expected the vast majority of primary schools to follow suite but there is very little report of this happening.eadric said:
YesTOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
And in the meantime we can all watch these fucking hipster revolutionaries crowding together to protest about awful white people, with no redress, indeed with government praise and encouragement
And my fucking kids can't get an education. Can't grow up normally
Beyond angry
Secondary schools, where kids have to crowd through quite narrow corridors to a different class every 40 minutes, are clearly more of a challenge but it is essential that this challenge is met. In Edinburgh some schools are experimenting with the kids staying put and the teachers moving around but how that works for science and different subject choices I am not sure. Meantime no walk is complete without seeing ever larger groups of unsupervised young teens meeting up for a laugh, a chat and some canoodling.
Many disengaged or semi-disengaged pupils will have had no teaching for more than 6 months by September. I very much doubt that their education will ever recover.1 -
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.MaxPB said:
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.kle4 said:Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
3 -
Should the response then not be to remove it, rebury him in an unmarked grave? I mean if it's been vandalised, then surely 'the people have spoken'.Mexicanpete said:
Don't "we" regularly deface Marx's grave in Highgate Cemetery anyway.rottenborough said:0 -
The only way I could see it happening is if Cummings decided it would wind up the protesters and remove all the sexiness from their cause. Clapping for the NHS is pretty mainstream in Britain, adopting an American race protest gesture has a long way to go before it is deemed normal behaviour in the UK.Stark_Dawning said:
As with Churchill and his V-sign, Boris loves a good gesture. Remember how he came out to clap the NHS even when he was ill will Covid? I bet he can't wait to get down there.Brom said:
Based upon what? It's highly unlikely he would.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what the Right's reaction will be when Boris 'takes the knee' (as I reckon he will).BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/12703743884881674281 -
There is an Engels hidden away in some back street corner near Deansgate in Manchester, so I believe. Purchased from the collapsing Soviet Union in the early 90s. Hunting it out has been a little lunch project I've been meaning to do for a while - now on hold of course.rottenborough said:0 -
Thats very funny though I prefer judicial humour to be a little less topical myselfScott_xP said:0 -
Absolutely.Stocky said:
Yes, but it`s not intending to actually help anyone it is. It`s all about signalling isn`t it.Stereotomy said:
It's pathetic performative nonsense for Starmer to kneel, just like when the US cops and politicians do it. If he wants to stand with black people he should propose a policy program that will actually help them. Using the right hashtags when it becomes politically expedient to do so helps nobodystate_go_away said:We have many things we could learn from the USA but race relations and identity politics isn't one of them . So its a shame that Keir Starmer expresses himself this way . He is over 50 and usually sensible and sincere .He just looks false and american
By the way, I don't extend that to everyone- or even most people- kneeling. The fact is that most of us, rightly or wrongly, feel like helpless observers in politics. Sometimes signalling is all we know how to do- not to make ourselves look good (well, not always), but as a plea to the established powers for change, or in the hope that somebody will find the show of solidarity comforting.
But those with real power or status aren't observers, they're participants, and for them to do nothing while it requires any real courage or self-sacrifice, then to jump on the bandwagon to try to score kudos or admiration, is cowardly and pathetic.0 -
The weaponry in question is nearly never used against the police in the US.FrancisUrquhart said:
When the public have widespread access to guns, so do the criminals, so the police have them. And in some parts of the US, the sort of weaponry you can purchase are just insane and of course "open carry" laws.Richard_Tyndall said:
I do think that, for all the police are clearly out of control in the US, there is a deeper problem in that country than just the police. Robert Smithson pointed out yesterday that the US police killed 5 time more people in one year than our police have in their history.FrancisUrquhart said:
In the UK? There are thankfully very few instances of the police killing people full stop, and since the case of Stephen Lawrence 27 years ago, the police have undergone a lot of reform. Jean Charles de Menezes is obviously the one where the police actions are seriously questionable.logical_song said:
Maybe some don't like being killed by policemen?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
We aren't the US, gunning down a 1000 members of the public a year.
But it is also worth noting that since 1900, 253 British police officers have been murdered whilst doing their duty. That is in 120 years (though it does exclude NI with the Troubles) and averages just over 2 a year
In 2019 89 US police officers were killed whilst on duty. That was actually a massive fall from the previous year when 144 were killed.
More shocking still, between 1980 and 2015, 260,000 black men died violently in the US. Overall, murders in the US - black and white, male and female - are running at 14,000 a year, almost half of those being people between the ages of 17 and 30.
The issue in the US appears to me to be the acceptance of casual violence on all sides. Until that is solved I am not sure there will be any solution to one specific part of it.
The stark contrast between US, is Canada. Very similar in many ways, but they have much stricter rules on guns.
Most gun crime is with handguns, and often junk revolvers....0 -
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.kinabalu said:
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.rcs1000 said:
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?0 -
(In case you didn't realise, my comment was a quote from MLK Jr, intended to show that the link between socialism and anti-racism is nothing new.)TimT said:
If you believe in Laloux's understanding of the evolution of forms of human organization, capitalism will subsist alongside the organizational forms which preceded it, even while other, better forms of self-organizing emerge and become dominant.Stereotomy said:
I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high motive, viz, to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human system it fail victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has outlived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. So I think Bellamy is right in seeing the gradual decline of capitalism.FrancisUrquhart said:We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund
Marxism...
I am hopeful that we are seeing the end of rampant capitalism, which has denuded and polluted the planet, and are moving on to a more sustainable relationship between materialistic economics and personal fulfillment on the one hand, and the earth's resources and habitats on the other.0 -
They should go after violent videogames and movies, no one else has those.Richard_Tyndall said:
I do think that, for all the police are clearly out of control in the US, there is a deeper problem in that country than just the police. Robert Smithson pointed out yesterday that the US police killed 5 time more people in one year than our police have in their history.FrancisUrquhart said:
In the UK? There are thankfully very few instances of the police killing people full stop, and since the case of Stephen Lawrence 27 years ago, the police have undergone a lot of reform. Jean Charles de Menezes is obviously the one where the police actions are seriously questionable.logical_song said:
Maybe some don't like being killed by policemen?FrancisUrquhart said:Like the eco-fascists organizers, the BLM movement organizers are about much more than having some statues removed and raising awareness of racism. They are very clear this is about overthrowing the capitalist system. No amount of extra electric cars, planting some trees and relocating some statues in museums will be anywhere near enough.
We aren't the US, gunning down a 1000 members of the public a year.
But it is also worth noting that since 1900, 253 British police officers have been murdered whilst doing their duty. That is in 120 years (though it does exclude NI with the Troubles) and averages just over 2 a year
In 2019 89 US police officers were killed whilst on duty. That was actually a massive fall from the previous year when 144 were killed.
More shocking still, between 1980 and 2015, 260,000 black men died violently in the US. Overall, murders in the US - black and white, male and female - are running at 14,000 a year, almost half of those being people between the ages of 17 and 30.
The issue in the US appears to me to be the acceptance of casual violence on all sides. Until that is solved I am not sure there will be any solution to one specific part of it.1 -
Yes because Jez was an anti-Semite. When asked questions of "do you hate Jews" ge equivocated. No one is asking Starmer the question about black people, this is a statement he's made voluntarily that marks out racism against black people specifically as an ill (which it is) and ignores racism against Asians and Jews among other minorities. Why do this?!rkrkrk said:
As I recall, Corbyn was heavily criticized for stating he was opposed to all forms of racism, without singling out racism against Jewish people. Imagine that is why Starmer chose those words.MaxPB said:
It's a typical Labour method of dividing minorities into those who are worthy and those who aren't. Look at the abuse they have poured on Patel, Sunak and Javid previously and Corbyn vs Jews. As I said earlier in the day Indians are clearly becoming a problem minority for Labour just like Jews. This kind of phraseology as equivocation is not reassuring that Labour are moving on from their struggles with being a racist party under Corbyn.kle4 said:Starmer struck a sensible line yesterday apparently and has no history to presume the worst over phrasing.
0 -
You mean like Jimmy Saville? Hmmm. Comparable in their own ways I suppose.Luckyguy1983 said:
Should the response then not be to remove it, rebury him in an unmarked grave? I mean if it's been vandalised, then surely 'the people have spoken'.Mexicanpete said:
Don't "we" regularly deface Marx's grave in Highgate Cemetery anyway.rottenborough said:0 -
Just in case not mentioned I see Trump has gone off on one again, suggesting the 75 year old man pushed over by police was in fact a set up. Didn't actually fall badly according to Trump and was Antifa anyway.
Obviously had a blood bag attached to the back of his head!0 -
Without doubt this will affect different children to varying degrees. A seven year old living in a big house with a very well educated stay-at-home parent to sub in as a classroom assistant and good access to IT is likely to find this easier to recover from than a fifteen year old with a battery of exams approaching on the horizon, who gets lumbered with looking after younger siblings so their desperate Mum can go out to work and has nothing but a mobile phone to help with their distance learning.Mortimer said:
Whilst getting children back to school is clearly an important aim, doing so in such a way as to avoid a second lockdown, in conjunction with other easings, is just as important for these children and society.Black_Rook said:
The unshuttering of the schools has also been pretty limited in other countries.kle4 said:Cant really understand this school business. Different places cannot be directly compared but if others are not struggling so much it provokes many questions why we are.
Fact is, unless the virus fades away to almost nothing then the schools are sunk and so, by extension, are the children and their parents. The better schools will try to keep the kids engaged and learning properly with a mixture 1-2 days per week in classroom and inferior online courses the rest of the time, but childrens' education will be crippled and a huge number of working parents will be sacked as this drags on through the Autumn, and the Winter, and into 2021, and quite possibly 2022 and 2023.
A whole generation is on its way to the scrapheap.
You're tending towards hyperbole with that last sentence. I missed a big chunk of primary education through regular (6 x a year for a few years) tonsillitis and a spell of anxiety related depression, too - probably 6 months all in all. Didn't stop me passing the 11+ and getting a good degree.
Unless one adopts the view that schools are overrated and that spending most of every week sat on their backsides at home is, therefore, what's best for children, then one can only conclude that the consequences of the pandemic are likely to prove very damaging for the life prospects of the young.1 -
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.TOPPING said:
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.TheScreamingEagles said:
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?0 -
Well, I won't go away until I can at least sit in a pub garden, and visit museums and other attractions. Some friends have a second home in Cornwall and I am hoping to sneak in a visit before the school holidays start. Not that that will make much of a difference this year it seems. A proper holiday will probably have to wait until September, later if Manchester Marathon actually happens. I may go and camp somewhere overnight when I can, just for a change of scenery.Pulpstar said:
Still plenty of the economy to unlock before the 2 metre rule needs ditching. Caravan/self stay stays overnight wanted by myself, colleague and fiancees parents.JohnLilburne said:
Who was Mr Angry? If he wants a formal, published review the answer will be 2m. They coukd probably reduce it outside, but then we will have two standards and everyone will say it's too complicatedtlg86 said:I see the journalists have switched to attacking the government for not removing restrictions in the name of businesses.
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What's Charlie Mullins on about
https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1292875/Pimlico-Plumbers-boss-charlie-mullins-furlough-row-philip-schofield-this-morning-itv-vide?fbclid=IwAR1IWoHKYaeaqshWCtd5XVbB6e4nM9Xf2pwgDm7oFg9fwPjXmX4bqhaR6oQ
It's his decision to furlough (or not) his employees..0 -
We have been used to thinking we kick everyone's arse. And even when we haven't, it's been in a land far away and no one really understands the dynamics of, say, the Mahdi Army or whether we would or would not have been better off in the Euro (we naturally assume we did the right thing and who's to say we didn't).Stuartinromford said:
I wonder how much the Great British Public have taken on board how bad things have been in the UK compared with elsewhere, and how slowly things are improving compared with other countries.TOPPING said:
Chatting to a v insightful friend about this just now.TheScreamingEagles said:
They are led by competent people, we are led by Boris Johnson and a disgraced national security risk?rottenborough said:
@eadric is right. It is an absolute shambles. Why can German schools open, and ours can't?TOPPING said:
It's worse than that. They are saying that if (primary) schools are able, they can admit more pupils. So which schools do we think will be more able? Walthamstow Bog Standard Primary or Shires Prep?eadric said:The government has completely fucked up the reopening of the schools in England. Now they are saying September or later?!
Childrens' lives are being damaged.
This alone will generate intense anger. I can see the Tories polling down in the 20s by Autumn
In no particular order it looks like us locking down two weeks later than Germany might have been the cause of our high death rate; the germans' track and trace was in place from Day 1 and ours still isn't; we would have binned all our PPE had it not been for the expectation of a bio bomb from Islamic terrorists; and oh yes the FT's Covid coverage is free right now.
My observation is that this is the first occasion perhaps in living memory (Suez maybe but that was "abroad") when it looks, death rate-wise, that the UK has fucked up vs most every other nation. There are generations which haven't experienced that. On home soil. British exceptionalism, whether a good or bad thing, will therefore be examined. Equally, although it will be some time before the analysis is performed, people will look to blame the government. If people are disaffected then as we are seeing there is now a tangible object which can be blamed and acted against, either politically or on the streets.
As other countries start to report zero deaths and zero cases on a regular basis, what will happen to the government's reputation?
This has two elements which I think will promote awareness. The first as you say, we can see people in Paris in cafes and hear other countries with no death toll and opening up; and as with the Cummings case, everyone is stuck inside watching this stuff. There is nothing to take peoples' mind or attention away. No soaps, no sports, to watch or play, so nothing. It's a perfect climate for people to pay attention to what the government is up to.2 -
This is just another variant of the "all lives matter" nonsense. I think you're just being obtuse.MaxPB said:
But no one thinks that Starmer is racist towards black people specifically. There was no need for equivocation here. Labour and Starmer are either against racism or they aren't. Right now I know that he is against racism aimed at black people, nothing wrong there, but he's equivocated on other forms of racism by singling out racism against black people.kinabalu said:
I disagree. The B in BAME is perfectly valid on its own.rcs1000 said:
What a stupid thing for Starmer to say. He could just have gone with "We kneel with all those opposing racism."MaxPB said:
"Anti-Black racism" Starmer shows that Asians are no longer considered worthy.BluestBlue said:Kneel before Zod!
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1270374388488167428
I'm now of the belief that if you gave Starmer enough wine he'd start explaining how racism against Asians isn't as bad as racism against black people.
It's actually quite a shocking statement for all Asians in the UK that we're not considered worth protesting for by the Labour leader. I hope Patel, Javid and Sunak pick up on this.
Remember when people were wanting Corbyn to condemn antisemitism and would get irritated (imo rightly) by his refusal to budge from the generic "I oppose ALL forms of racism"?
Same point applies here. It's a specific "BLM" moment we are in. The choice is to associate like this or not. Perhaps he shouldn't - I can see the argument against - but if you're going to do it, do it.
Black Lives Matter - "I oppose all form of anti BLACK racism".
It works.
To impute a snub to other ethnic minorities is bad faith and - at a push - is @MaxPB succumbing to what he has so forcefully told us he has no time for. Seeking out offence and making a considerable effort to perceive it.
Sorry. Guess that will not be a popular view but imo it has to be said.
Is Starmer against all forms of racism or just racism against black people?0
