politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With the Cummings lockdown saga now in its seventh day some bi
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I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.Alistair said:
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.eristdoof said:
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.edmundintokyo said:Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
Not that it matters now!0 -
Dawkins's theory is that all genes are selfish genes, so it doesn't fail a test there. And the other point he had to make for the rest of his life was that that does not imply that humans, or anything else, are or ought to be selfish.Carnyx said:
The virus is a selfish gene (or rather set of genes) in the classical Dawkinsian sense, self-propagating as best it can.Philip_Thompson said:
Taking care of a group can be entirely the right thing to do for selfish reasons. People interpret selfish as a bad thing, it isn't.Alistair said:
You've seen no zombie movies then.Philip_Thompson said:
There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.IanB2 said:
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.HYUFD said:
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.OnlyLivingBoy said:
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.HYUFD said:
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.StuartDickson said:
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.SouthamObserver said:Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
I said Anglosphere for a reason
So it is a good thing, is it?1 -
Plenty. For example in 2013 Andrew Neil accused Shakeel Begg, chief imam at Lewisham Islamic Centre, of promoting and encouraging religious violence by telling Muslims that violence in support of Islam would constitute a man’s greatest deed - an allegation of an offence - without using the word “allegedly”. A complaint had already been made to the police. Begg sued and lost. So let let Cummings sue and a court can finally determine whether or not what she said was true.Philip_Thompson said:
The BBC are not lawyers. The prosecution or defence of a case have a clearly understood bias that they are presenting their interpretation of the facts that suits their client.DougSeal said:
It is acceptable to make an assertion as to fact without the word “allegedly” and without a court agreeing. I do it all day every day. If lawyers chucked the word “allegedly” in every time they asserted a fact in a letter before claim to an opponent, or a pleading, it would actually be used against them to suggest they did not believe what they had asserted. Bad drafting. In the context of the message board, Mr Borough was either being truthful or giving an honest opinion, both of which clearly allow him to to make those assertions as to fact without this farcical HIGNFY inspired habit of putting “allegedly” in every sentence as some sort of magic anti-defamation spell.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"rottenborough said:
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"TGOHF666 said:
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.Morris_Dancer said:As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
That doesn't apply to the BBC. Who is the BBC's client? The BBC always uses the word allegedly normally ... I dare you to find any other case where a BBC journalist pronounces someone guilty of a pending Police investigation without using the word allegedly. Any at all would do.
Also this isn't about the linguistic stylings of Mr Borough but Maitlis on Newsnight.0 -
A useful primer on life in Johnson's second term when the culture wars will be at maximum intensity is Sorokin's Day of the Oprichnik. People will be dragged into the street, beaten and raped by tory oprichniki based on how many different types of vinegar they have in their kitchen.Mango said:
As has been inevitable since 24 June 2016.SouthamObserver said:My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
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The way it pans out as I see it is that Boris takes us out with no extended transition period, and probably no deal either though that wouldn't be entirely his fault. So by January 2021he can say 'I got Brexit done', I am resigning due to ongoing health issues. Cummings will admit to being a lying bastard and they both go in the first quarter of 2021.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We have not left as you well know. And many want another 2 years in transitionRochdalePioneers said:
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.Big_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
Cummings should resign but he does not care.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
July may will see the ultimate dead cat bounce as Boris walks out and the implications to the UK and Europe will be profound
Hope so anyway as I have a few quid on it.0 -
Cummings can’t be prosecuted anyway. How would he get a fair trial?Philip_Thompson said:
The BBC are not lawyers. The prosecution or defence of a case have a clearly understood bias that they are presenting their interpretation of the facts that suits their client.DougSeal said:
It is acceptable to make an assertion as to fact without the word “allegedly” and without a court agreeing. I do it all day every day. If lawyers chucked the word “allegedly” in every time they asserted a fact in a letter before claim to an opponent, or a pleading, it would actually be used against them to suggest they did not believe what they had asserted. Bad drafting. In the context of the message board, Mr Borough was either being truthful or giving an honest opinion, both of which clearly allow him to to make those assertions as to fact without this farcical HIGNFY inspired habit of putting “allegedly” in every sentence as some sort of magic anti-defamation spell.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"rottenborough said:
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"TGOHF666 said:
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.Morris_Dancer said:As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
That doesn't apply to the BBC. Who is the BBC's client? The BBC always uses the word allegedly normally ... I dare you to find any other case where a BBC journalist pronounces someone guilty of a pending Police investigation without using the word allegedly. Any at all would do.
Also this isn't about the linguistic stylings of Mr Borough but Maitlis on Newsnight.
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I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.0
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Boris says it's done. He claimed he 'did' Brexit at the end of January. Was he lying?Charles said:
It’s opponents of Brexit saying it’s done so they can undermine it in the backgroundBig_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
Cummings should resign but he does not care.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done0 -
Boris says it's done. He claimed he 'did' Brexit at the end of January. Was he lying?Charles said:
It’s opponents of Brexit saying it’s done so they can undermine it in the backgroundBig_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
Cummings should resign but he does not care.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done0 -
I await free movement with the Anglosphere with baited breath. (Spoiler alert: apart from Ireland, there is not a single English-speaking country who would sign up to reciprocal freedom of movement with the UK).HYUFD said:
Quite likely, the upper middle class voted Remain and the working class voted Leave after allSocky said:
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?NickPalmer said:I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?0 -
It's obviously a pack of lies, because Cumming's wife herself had written:Scott_xP said:
So they didn't need to travel at allCharles said:She was sick but not covid I thought?
That's the problem with this story. You can't parse it, because it's so obviously made up bullshit.
"I had thought that actually getting the coronavirus would bring clarity - that there would be some satisfaction in meeting the enemy, feeling its spectral hands around my lungs. No such luck. Uncertainty is the hallmark of Covid-19. Even its origins are murky: wet markets or the Wuhan Centre for Disease Control? Who knows, and who would ever believe the Chinese government anyway? When you've got it, the sense of medieval unknowing only deepens. Is this definitely it? Will it get worse? Will it come back?
My version of the virus began with a nasty headache and a grubby feeling of unease, after which I threw up on the bathroom floor." ...
Remarkable that anyone is still swallowing any of the self-serving stuff spouted by this duplicitous pair.0 -
Wouldn't be a jury trial, unless he wanted to game it that way, surely.Charles said:
Cummings can’t be prosecuted anyway. How would he get a fair trial?Philip_Thompson said:
The BBC are not lawyers. The prosecution or defence of a case have a clearly understood bias that they are presenting their interpretation of the facts that suits their client.DougSeal said:
It is acceptable to make an assertion as to fact without the word “allegedly” and without a court agreeing. I do it all day every day. If lawyers chucked the word “allegedly” in every time they asserted a fact in a letter before claim to an opponent, or a pleading, it would actually be used against them to suggest they did not believe what they had asserted. Bad drafting. In the context of the message board, Mr Borough was either being truthful or giving an honest opinion, both of which clearly allow him to to make those assertions as to fact without this farcical HIGNFY inspired habit of putting “allegedly” in every sentence as some sort of magic anti-defamation spell.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"rottenborough said:
"Dominic Cummings broke the rules"TGOHF666 said:
Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.Morris_Dancer said:As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
That doesn't apply to the BBC. Who is the BBC's client? The BBC always uses the word allegedly normally ... I dare you to find any other case where a BBC journalist pronounces someone guilty of a pending Police investigation without using the word allegedly. Any at all would do.
Also this isn't about the linguistic stylings of Mr Borough but Maitlis on Newsnight.0 -
HMG has published a summary of its scientific advice from February
Worth reading for clear explanations of the concepts involved but keep that date in mind.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887353/15-spi-m-o-consensus-statement-03022020.pdf0 -
Seems like doing what they wanted to do anyway under the guise of distancing.Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
Too many Councils hate cars. Considering cars are arguably the safest mode of transport relating to the pandemic (certainly better than public transport) continuing to wage war against cars in the name of the pandemic is insane.0 -
You seem strangely interested in my posting!Alistair said:
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.IshmaelZ said:
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.Charles said:
I don’t know if you’re married...Pro_Rata said:I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
My view
1. Cummings is an idiot
2. He made a poor decision in a panic
3. I have sympathy for that
4. He should be criticised
5. But it doesn’t rise to a sacking - fundamentally this was not “I want to go away for the weekend” or “I want to have a shag” it was “I’m worried about my kid”
6. This is a media witch hunt which is deeply unpleasant to watch5 -
Soon you'll be able to launch a private prosecution, with you as lead counsel, to get them to stop.Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
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I saw a survey a while back in which people from various countries were asked which country, except their own, they'd recommend to a young person to have a good life.noneoftheabove said:
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.NickPalmer said:
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?HYUFD said:
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
Brits backed Australia, and having been there a few times, I can see why, though I'd prefer California myself. Obviously Australia has its ugly side, like all countries, but for decent middle class life, it must be one of the best places in the world. People are mostly friendly and they speak (a corruption of) English. And it's warm and sunny. Sydney has a stunningly beautiful setting, though Melbourne is a lot drabber.1 -
It's the Barnard Castle thing that's really pissing people off.
The excuse that:
"Well, yes, we did go out of lockdown and drove 45 minutes along country roads to a local beauty spot as a family on my wife's birthday, including getting out of the car there and then stopping at some woods on the way back where we were seen playing together as a family during the time that people were being turned back in their cars if they were making 'non-essential journeys' and even fined, but I've got an excuse.
You see, I wanted to check if I was fit for a motorway drive because I had to get back to advise the Prime Minister. Who was, of course, not working at the time or for another fortnight, but that's by the by. There were concerns I wasn't safe to drive. I mean - what would we do if we got half way back and I felt unable to drive any more? Have my wife drive instead as she's been far less hit by this bug? That's madness.
That's why I had to put my entire family in the car and drive cross country on a one-and-a-half hour round trip on country roads to a beauty spot. Rather than, say, drive up and down on my father's estate on my own, or, if I was feeling brave, pop onto the motorway for one junction down and back.
And the reason we got out was that I was feeling too sick to drive. However, at no point did my wife drive despite this; I pressed on after we got seen and got back in. And we stopped off on the way back for a pee and thought that while we were outside of the car already, we may as well play together as a family for a while.
And that, your Honour, is why we were seen playing as a family on my wife's birthday at a beauty spot an hour and a half round trip away from where we were self-isolating while everyone else was being instructed that they should not drive somewhere to beauty spots. I think I have behaved with integrity and reasonably throughout and regret nothing."
I think only Philip believes him on here; even the Tory stalwarts are either aghast or saying that they simply don't care that he did wrong.
And on the weakness front: the thing that's cut through is that Boris is unable to sack this go no matter what he does or govern without him.5 -
I was only there for a couple of months, there are definitely large chunks of Britain in there, but I didnt get any sense of American metropolitan life in the cities. And a lot of the people who lived there didnt really like the sun, I guess it is both taken for granted, whereas I loved it.Philip_Thompson said:
I grew up there. Best way to describe it is as a blend of Britain being like America while enjoying the sunshine.noneoftheabove said:
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.NickPalmer said:
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?HYUFD said:
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
There are bigger divisions than in the UK, the left behind are even further left behind and it is hard to see their kids transitioning into mainstream society.
Once you hit average earnings or above your lifestyle is better than the UK apart from on foreign travel and to an extent food. However much you earn its hard to change the difficulty of foreign travel.0 -
This is government policy. Grant Shapps has given councils £2 billion to spend on making cycling easier and driving harder.Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
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The Daily Mail is a completely different newspaper with Geordie Greig in charge, it is no longer overtly right wing.Charles said:
The Daily Mail has had a particularly bad pandemic. They’ve been utterly irresponsiblelogical_song said:
The Daily Mail is pursuing an agenda to bring down the Tory government?Charles said:
Indeed. The media have decided to make it a trial of strength do the government can’t afford to lose.StuartDickson said:This is no longer about Dominic Cummings. It is about Boris Johnson.
But unless there is new information why would the government backdown?
So the media will get bored and move on at some point.
In the meantime none of the important stuff, like the new lockdown rules, gets air time. But apparently it’s not the media’s fault for not writing about them.
Really?
Which is a shame for Marcus Brigstocke and Andy Parsons as it means they no longer have a career.0 -
No, because you can think that religion is important to you and still live in a secular society. Just as you can think football is important to you and not live in a society governed by football.HYUFD said:
I was absolutely right.kamski said:
Good that you admit to cherry-picking as usual, at least it's a start.HYUFD said:
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.kamski said:
Usual cherry-picking from you.HYUFD said:
Oh yes I do.IanB2 said:
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.HYUFD said:
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.kamski said:
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.HYUFD said:
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.StuartDickson said:
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.SouthamObserver said:Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2002/12/19/among-wealthy-nations/
"Among Wealthy Nations
U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
There is tons more info out there if you are interested in reality, rather than just desperately trying to pretend to be right all the time.
I assume you don't know Italy well at all.
There may be more very religious people in the USA but there are also more secular people in the USA than in Italy, Poland, Greece or Portugal.
Nothing you posted refuted my claim at all
What you posted did nothing to refute my claim, nor show show that you know Italy very well.0 -
And March.DecrepiterJohnL said:HMG has published a summary of its scientific advice from February
Worth reading for clear explanations of the concepts involved but keep that date in mind.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887353/15-spi-m-o-consensus-statement-03022020.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/887541/01-spi-m-o-consensus-statement-on-2019-novel-coronavirus-_covid-19_.pdf0 -
A lot of council had long term pedestrianisation plans that they have rapidly deployed because they can.TOPPING said:
Soon you'll be able to launch a private prosecution, with you as lead counsel, to get them to stop.Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
Given that public transport isn't an option for travelling to and from the city centre I'm not sure how sane a plan it is.0 -
The Govt are now talking about allowing family members to meet up at social distance in a garden...but no more than two households.....
Are they fucking idiots? They are sticking up for a guy and a car full of Covid driving the length of the country.
Who cares what the Govt says anymore...they have become irrelevant. Why should anyone give a flying fuck about what they say?
Each for their own....0 -
That is not what happened historically. Remeber the nonsense over IDS. A complete fuck up, Tories angry with IDS and one Corbyn intervention later and every Tory to a the last one agreed IDS was a genius.NickPalmer said:
I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.Alistair said:
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.eristdoof said:
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.edmundintokyo said:Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
Not that it matters now!0 -
On yer bike...Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
Actually, if we shift a reasonable but small proportion of shorter car journeys - say 10-15% - to other active modes of travel, it would be a large benefit for both congestion and air quality.
We might even live a bit longer.2 -
Sure - chosen no doubt do they could make that argumentIanB2 said:
An amendment with wording identical to that one of the Tories had himself proposed just a while back.Charles said:
Be careful - that’s a push piece. Basically an amendment was rejected. That doesn’t mean that the government intends to lower standards. It just means they rejected the amendmentnorthern_monkey said:
Shame on them. Lying Bastards. They don’t give a damn for the normal people of this country.OnlyLivingBoy said:Meanwhile, government reneges on promises to maintain UK food standards and protect our farming industry. Crappy US food imports all round. No wonder so much US money was behind the Leave campaign. This is their Brexit dividend.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/full-list-of-mps-who-voted-to-lower-our-food-standards-during-the-covid-pandemic/26/05/
But I don’t know if the legislation has changed since the amendment was originally tabled
I don’t have a view one way or the other. It’s just necessary to be careful about reading what is clearly an agenda driven piece0 -
Most members of the working class either did not vote or voted Remain. Most EU emigration is undertaken by older Brits of all social classes, who largely voted Leave. Most non-EU emigration is undertaken by younger Brits of all social classes, most of whom voted Remain.HYUFD said:
Quite likely, the upper middle class voted Remain and the working class voted Leave after allSocky said:
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?NickPalmer said:I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?
0 -
I visited Australia some years back (Adelaide, Woomera, Sydney). What really struck me was that some of it seemed on the margin in terms of water supply, including big cities. It would worry me if I wanted to emigrate there.Fishing said:
I saw a survey a while back in which people from various countries were asked which country, except their own, they'd recommend to a young person to have a good life.noneoftheabove said:
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.NickPalmer said:
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?HYUFD said:
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
Brits backed Australia, and having been there a few times, I can see why, though I'd prefer California myself. Obviously Australia has its ugly side, like all countries, but for decent middle class life, it must be one of the best places in the world. People are mostly friendly and they speak (a corruption of) English. And it's warm and sunny. Sydney has a stunningly beautiful setting, though Melbourne is a lot drabber.0 -
Do you care that he is lying to you?Charles said:
You seem strangely interested in my posting!Alistair said:
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.IshmaelZ said:
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.Charles said:
I don’t know if you’re married...Pro_Rata said:I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
My view
1. Cummings is an idiot
2. He made a poor decision in a panic
3. I have sympathy for that
4. He should be criticised
5. But it doesn’t rise to a sacking - fundamentally this was not “I want to go away for the weekend” or “I want to have a shag” it was “I’m worried about my kid”
6. This is a media witch hunt which is deeply unpleasant to watch0 -
We have left. We no longer play any part in the EU decision-making process and have no say in what is decided, but we have agreed to be bound by all EU law for a further year and by some beyond that. It's a bit more complicated in Northern Ireland.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We have not left as you well know. And many want another 2 years in transitionRochdalePioneers said:
No no, GET BREXIT DONE was the slogan for the election. Vote Tory and we will GET BREXIT DONE. No more delays beyond the end of January. And there were no more delays - we left. We're now in the transition having departed. Thats what punters were told endlessly by this government. Thats why people voted for this government. People didn't know or care how it actually worked other than it was bad. Its done.Big_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
Cummings should resign but he does not care.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
As for WTO the Tories have a majority of 80 and have the mandate to do whatever they see fit. We've already had a warmup for what no deal will look like and people didn't like. Apparently many Brexiteer Tories insist GATT24 means we go WTO and can do what we like. Despite the outgoing head of the WTO pointing out this is bollocks and reaching for the popcorn.
No deal declared in July as some kind of triumph will be met largely with "so what" followed by anger when people realise the privations the government are now imposing on them. Already seen the start of that with the Mail reporting of US food demands. "Not the Brexit we voted for". Remember - people didn't vote for a destination after we left the EU - that is a political decision of the govenment. If they fuck it up the blame won't be put on the average Brexit voter, it'll be on the government for screwing up after we left.
"Not the Brexit we voted for". It'd better be good than what we had before...
July may will see the ultimate dead cat bounce as Boris walks out and the implications to the UK and Europe will be profound
1 -
In the alternate history Nick with Corbyn....Labour were irrelevant on everything and anything....NickPalmer said:
I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.Alistair said:
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.eristdoof said:
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.edmundintokyo said:Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
Not that it matters now!
Although quite bizarrely the Corbynites still like to claim credit for everything and anything.....
0 -
It is done. We are out and we are not rejoining. What is left is doing a trade deal, or not. The current absurdities make not much more likely as the governmet now has much less room for manouevre.Charles said:
It’s opponents of Brexit saying it’s done so they can undermine it in the backgroundBig_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
Cummings should resign but he does not care.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
1 -
It is not looking to calm us down, just make enough of us bored and it will work.Andy_Cooke said:
Far better than telling us we are confused which was Sunday and Mondays take.0 -
Oh I very much agree it's not American. Not at all. The idea Australia is like America is a myth, see for instance while I was there there was a gun massacre in Port Talbot (very similar timing to Dunblaine here) and like here the government introduced immediately very strict gun control. Not something you'd get in the States.noneoftheabove said:
I was only there for a couple of months, there are definitely large chunks of Britain in there, but I didnt get any sense of American metropolitan life in the cities. And a lot of the people who lived there didnt really like the sun, I guess it is both taken for granted, whereas I loved it.Philip_Thompson said:
I grew up there. Best way to describe it is as a blend of Britain being like America while enjoying the sunshine.noneoftheabove said:
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.NickPalmer said:
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?HYUFD said:
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
There are bigger divisions than in the UK, the left behind are even further left behind and it is hard to see their kids transitioning into mainstream society.
Once you hit average earnings or above your lifestyle is better than the UK apart from on foreign travel and to an extent food. However much you earn its hard to change the difficulty of foreign travel.
Hence I described it as Britain being like America. Ie it's like Britons pretending to be Americans, but it's a rough crude stereotype. The Americanisms of Australia are about as crude and as accurate as Dick Van Dyke's cockney accent!
Oh and I kick myself for not mentioning sport! The one thing that unites Australia and divides it from Britain is the absolute and total love of sport. People may call football a national religion here but we're total atheists compared to the Aussies religious love of all things sporting.1 -
Point 5. LolCharles said:
You seem strangely interested in my posting!Alistair said:
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.IshmaelZ said:
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.Charles said:
I don’t know if you’re married...Pro_Rata said:I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
My view
1. Cummings is an idiot
2. He made a poor decision in a panic
3. I have sympathy for that
4. He should be criticised
5. But it doesn’t rise to a sacking - fundamentally this was not “I want to go away for the weekend” or “I want to have a shag” it was “I’m worried about my kid”
6. This is a media witch hunt which is deeply unpleasant to watch
Point 6. Yes it is, but it one of which Cummings was the sole
architect, a situation he made substantially worse by contracting Alexander Johnson Cowboy Builders Ltd. to patch up some repairs.0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAP_SEAlistair said:Thought [SAP] were French.
0 -
Mr Charles,
There is a witch hunt going on, which is unpleasant, but he is a witch.0 -
How did the exam go?Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
0 -
Rather bored about this now. But then I don't have a bet on when he's out....
More concerning to me is the rumoured surge in new Covid cases at our local hospital over the weekend.0 -
MattW said:
On your bike...Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
You should see Brighton with their new huge waste of money on a redesigned sort of park sort of thingo down the centre of Steine coupled with width restrictions and a one way disaster area.. It is a out and out inhospitable place to come to I could imagine. So.last year and dull. 20mph all over the place designed to keep the motorist out.MattW said:
On your bike...Gallowgate said:I see that Newcastle City Council is spending god knows how much on further butchering the city centre with one way systems, cycle lanes, expanded pavements, and removal of parking to support “social distancing”... Just strikes me as completely reactionary and unnecessary.
If it wasn't for the poor beaches.. stones everywhere.... few would bother to come imho. Its got a lot worse since I left my job there in 2005.0 -
Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...0 -
Its complete nonsense, I will go to a socially distanced park a couple of times a week. There will be thousands of people in there.tyson said:The Govt are now talking about allowing family members to meet up at social distance in a garden...but no more than two households.....
Are they fucking idiots? They are sticking up for a guy and a car full of Covid driving the length of the country.
Who cares what the Govt says anymore...they have become irrelevant. Why should anyone give a flying fuck about what they say?
Each for their own....
The virus really does not care whether or not I know 0,1,5,10 or even all 1000 people in the park.
What matters is we are socially distanced. I see no problem meeting any number of people in the park, and wont follow govt rules that are backed by neither legislation or logic.0 -
One of the Tories' big challenges is that they still have not got their heads around Corbyn and the far-left no longer being in charge. Cummings drove to Durham when they were and he probably did not give the political implications of doing so a second thought. But the free pass ended at the start of April. It's not just Tory negatives that are climbing in that Mail poll. Labour negatives are falling, too.tyson said:
In the alternate history Nick with Corbyn....Labour were irrelevant on everything and anything....NickPalmer said:
I think Starmer is handling it pretty well, but in danger of overdoing the restraint. In your alternate hgistory, I disagree. Corbyn would be ignoring Cummings (he virtually never attacks individuals, even the obvious ones) but demanding a special session to examine the impact of easing lockdown on low-paid workers. Cummings would get away with it for that reason, rather than that Corbyn was zeroing in on him.Alistair said:
Let us imagine the alternate history version of this crisis but with Seamus and Corbyn in charge.eristdoof said:
You are not the first person to suggest this on this forum.edmundintokyo said:Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
morning of the story breaking Corbyn has demanded an emergency session of parliament to demand Dominic Cummings is sacked. We haven't had the Barnard Castle stuff revealed yet. Immediately every Tory MP rallies round the flag. This is a partisan hitjob. Twitter is filled with Right wing talking heads decrying the Labour party. The Barnard Castle stuff then comes out and is dismissed due to slight imperfections in the witnesses recollection of events. This is all over by Monday.
Starmer is following the Napoleonic maxim to perfection. Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake. Corbyn would be all over this like a cheap suit.
Also, Starmer has called for Cummnigs to be sacked - but only have a suitably long amount of time and in a low key way (saying he would have sacked him)
Not that it matters now!
Although quite bizarrely the Corbynites still like to claim credit for everything and anything.....
0 -
That's true and it worries many Aussies too. Though I think Sydney actually gets twice as much rainfall as London, doesn't it? (4 inches vs 1.5 inches/month)Carnyx said:
I visited Australia some years back (Adelaide, Woomera, Sydney). What really struck me was that some of it seemed on the margin in terms of water supply, including big cities. It would worry me if I wanted to emigrate there.Fishing said:
I saw a survey a while back in which people from various countries were asked which country, except their own, they'd recommend to a young person to have a good life.noneoftheabove said:
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.NickPalmer said:
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?HYUFD said:
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
Brits backed Australia, and having been there a few times, I can see why, though I'd prefer California myself. Obviously Australia has its ugly side, like all countries, but for decent middle class life, it must be one of the best places in the world. People are mostly friendly and they speak (a corruption of) English. And it's warm and sunny. Sydney has a stunningly beautiful setting, though Melbourne is a lot drabber.
Their skin cancer rates are horrific as well.
But many people, including me, find mild desert climates good to live in. I mean, you wake up every morning, you feel the warm sun on you and you feel good about yourself. I couldn't live in the humidity and mosquitoes of tropical Queensland (or Mississippi), but coastal southern California or dry Australia are my ideal climates.
And in the English language and friendly people and you have a winning combination, and one that many English people buy into.0 -
Weston ?Scrapheap_as_was said:Rather bored about this now. But then I don't have a bet on when he's out....
More concerning to me is the rumoured surge in new Covid cases at our local hospital over the weekend.0 -
Are you suggesting we should test his floating capability? Does Barnard Castle have a lake?CD13 said:Mr Charles,
There is a witch hunt going on, which is unpleasant, but he is a witch.0 -
I have lived and worked in both Oz and NZ, and have family in both. I love both countries, but prefer NZ. Auckland is pretending to be Sydney, pretending to be LA, but Melbourne is a much more liveable place, with a lot of charm but without the tourist appeal. Adelaide is my favourite Australian City, and Christchurch in NZ, but I haven't been back since the quake.noneoftheabove said:
I was only there for a couple of months, there are definitely large chunks of Britain in there, but I didnt get any sense of American metropolitan life in the cities. And a lot of the people who lived there didnt really like the sun, I guess it is both taken for granted, whereas I loved it.Philip_Thompson said:
I grew up there. Best way to describe it is as a blend of Britain being like America while enjoying the sunshine.noneoftheabove said:
+1 Unless you have been to Australia, you are very unlikely to know Australian culture, which is also completely different if metropolitan, rural or isolated on a scale far bigger than the divides we have seen exposed in the UK.NickPalmer said:
I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this? I've very little idea what Australian culture is like, apart from the random stereotype images of Waltzing Matilda and people drinking beer on beaches. You reckon that most people have studied it more closely?HYUFD said:
The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.
The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
There are bigger divisions than in the UK, the left behind are even further left behind and it is hard to see their kids transitioning into mainstream society.
Once you hit average earnings or above your lifestyle is better than the UK apart from on foreign travel and to an extent food. However much you earn its hard to change the difficulty of foreign travel.
Neither country is Britain in the South Seas though, and both see themselves as Pacific rim, and Asia centered economies. That is since the fall of Singapore. They see us as the old country, not the future.0 -
In any case, and away from Cummings - although I'm not on in the evenings (I've found that any social media late in the day makes it very difficult to get a good night's sleep), I noticed both @Cyclefree and @Anabobazina asking about pubs and restaurants being able to open outside venues.
I agree with both of them. I think it's foolish to be opening small shops again before this. The weight of evidence has been piling up that staying 2 metres (or even 1.5 or 1 metres) apart outside is, if not perfectly safe, amongst the lowest risk things that you can do.
I've been banging on for several weeks about finding the low-hanging fruit, and given that we're social creatures and pubs and restaurants are genuinely important parts of our culture, then trying this first would be a good idea. After all, restrictions and social distancing can only last when we all comply with them, and making things more pleasant during social distancing would improve acceptance and maximise the period that we can sustain it if necessary.
I'd suggest starting it at 2 metre gaps between people, requiring a system where people get their own drinks and food while bar staff stand back from them (wearing masks), and having household groups all separated by 2m or more at all times and a time limit of one hour maximum at the site for the household groups, and staying outside at all times (yes, even if it rains). And have it emphasised that this is a trial thing only that will be withdrawn if it looks like it's being abused or R spikes up.
I truly think it would help the mental health of loads of people and help the chances of the relaxed-lockdown-level being sustained as long as necessary, while giving the least chance of a spike in Covid-19 cases. It does look very much like one of those low hanging fruits I've been banging on about until everyone's bored of me.5 -
Cummings could have got a government car to bring down to London or caught a train. The Barnard Castle story is quite clearly a fib. And a ridiculous one at that.Andy_Cooke said:It's the Barnard Castle thing that's really pissing people off.
The excuse that:
"Well, yes, we did go out of lockdown and drove 45 minutes along country roads to a local beauty spot as a family on my wife's birthday, including getting out of the car there and then stopping at some woods on the way back where we were seen playing together as a family during the time that people were being turned back in their cars if they were making 'non-essential journeys' and even fined, but I've got an excuse.
You see, I wanted to check if I was fit for a motorway drive because I had to get back to advise the Prime Minister. Who was, of course, not working at the time or for another fortnight, but that's by the by. There were concerns I wasn't safe to drive. I mean - what would we do if we got half way back and I felt unable to drive any more? Have my wife drive instead as she's been far less hit by this bug? That's madness.
That's why I had to put my entire family in the car and drive cross country on a one-and-a-half hour round trip on country roads to a beauty spot. Rather than, say, drive up and down on my father's estate on my own, or, if I was feeling brave, pop onto the motorway for one junction down and back.
And the reason we got out was that I was feeling too sick to drive. However, at no point did my wife drive despite this; I pressed on after we got seen and got back in. And we stopped off on the way back for a pee and thought that while we were outside of the car already, we may as well play together as a family for a while.
And that, your Honour, is why we were seen playing as a family on my wife's birthday at a beauty spot an hour and a half round trip away from where we were self-isolating while everyone else was being instructed that they should not drive somewhere to beauty spots. I think I have behaved with integrity and reasonably throughout and regret nothing."
I think only Philip believes him on here; even the Tory stalwarts are either aghast or saying that they simply don't care that he did wrong.
And on the weakness front: the thing that's cut through is that Boris is unable to sack this go no matter what he does or govern without him.
2 -
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...0 -
The battle for Cummings is essentially a question over do we want Trumpian politics in the UK?
Are we ok for leaders to lie, divide and rule and create social media bubbles for their supporters to live in outrage.
Or does the truth and playing by the rules still matter.2 -
Was Cummings seen checking his eye sight nearby?Scrapheap_as_was said:Rather bored about this now. But then I don't have a bet on when he's out....
More concerning to me is the rumoured surge in new Covid cases at our local hospital over the weekend.0 -
1. Cummings is a liar.Charles said:
You seem strangely interested in my posting!Alistair said:
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.IshmaelZ said:
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.Charles said:
I don’t know if you’re married...Pro_Rata said:I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
My view
1. Cummings is an idiot
2. He made a poor decision in a panic
3. I have sympathy for that
4. He should be criticised
5. But it doesn’t rise to a sacking - fundamentally this was not “I want to go away for the weekend” or “I want to have a shag” it was “I’m worried about my kid”
6. This is a media witch hunt which is deeply unpleasant to watch
2. He made a lot of poor decisions, indicative of arrogance rather than panic.
3. I have sympathy for that.
4. He should be criticised.
5. If he had apologised and fronted up, he'd have got away with it. Using the kid as an excuse is poor form.
6. Media witch hunts are always deeply unpleasant to watch, even when directed at an odious individual like Cummings, whose mistreatment of others is legendary.3 -
No, because your point was that Italy was less religious than the US.kamski said:
No, because you can think that religion is important to you and still live in a secular society. Just as you can think football is important to you and not live in a society governed by football.HYUFD said:
I was absolutely right.kamski said:
Good that you admit to cherry-picking as usual, at least it's a start.HYUFD said:
You just cherry picked one poll too based on very important, not just important.kamski said:
Usual cherry-picking from you.HYUFD said:
Oh yes I do.IanB2 said:
Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.HYUFD said:
So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.kamski said:
Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.HYUFD said:
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.StuartDickson said:
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.SouthamObserver said:Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2002/12/19/among-wealthy-nations/
"Among Wealthy Nations
U.S. Stands Alone In Its Embrace of Religion"
"Six-in-ten (59%) people in the U.S. say religion plays a very important role in their lives.....Secularism is particularly prevalent throughout Europe. Even in heavily Catholic Italy fewer than three-in-ten (27%) people say religion is very important personally, a lack of intensity in belief that is consistent with opinion in other Western European nations. "
Do you really know Italy very well? Because being able to link to a wikipedia page isn't really good evidence.
As I said Poland, Greece, Portugal and Italy overall have more saying religion is important to them than the USA
There is tons more info out there if you are interested in reality, rather than just desperately trying to pretend to be right all the time.
I assume you don't know Italy well at all.
There may be more very religious people in the USA but there are also more secular people in the USA than in Italy, Poland, Greece or Portugal.
Nothing you posted refuted my claim at all
What you posted did nothing to refute my claim, nor show show that you know Italy very well.
The UK is a secular society because only a minority of us think religion is important, Italy is not as a majority of Italians think religion is important, indeed more Italians think religion is important than Americans.
The fact America has more who think religion is very important does not change that
0 -
Fear not, it is a mere illusion. Carefully selected statistics say everything is fine.Scrapheap_as_was said:Rather bored about this now. But then I don't have a bet on when he's out....
More concerning to me is the rumoured surge in new Covid cases at our local hospital over the weekend.1 -
Was there any polling on the Grenfell tragedy?0
-
Worked for BlairJonathan said:The battle for Cummings is essentially a question over do we want Trumpian politics in the UK?
Are we ok for leaders to lie, divide and rule and create social media bubbles for their supporters to live in outrage.
Or does the truth and playing by the rules still matter.0 -
There is a difference between where people are allowed to emigrate and have the skills to emigrate and where they would emigrate if they were allowed, on every measure Australia is the favoured choice for most Britains to emigrateSouthamObserver said:
Most members of the working class either did not vote or voted Remain. Most EU emigration is undertaken by older Brits of all social classes, who largely voted Leave. Most non-EU emigration is undertaken by younger Brits of all social classes, most of whom voted Remain.HYUFD said:
Quite likely, the upper middle class voted Remain and the working class voted Leave after allSocky said:
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?NickPalmer said:I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?0 -
Quick trip to pets at home this morning. Eyesight all good.1
-
I think if you substitute selfish for poor in 2 you have summed it up perfectly.Peter_the_Punter said:
1. Cummings is a liar.Charles said:
You seem strangely interested in my posting!Alistair said:
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.IshmaelZ said:
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.Charles said:
I don’t know if you’re married...Pro_Rata said:I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
My view
1. Cummings is an idiot
2. He made a poor decision in a panic
3. I have sympathy for that
4. He should be criticised
5. But it doesn’t rise to a sacking - fundamentally this was not “I want to go away for the weekend” or “I want to have a shag” it was “I’m worried about my kid”
6. This is a media witch hunt which is deeply unpleasant to watch
2. He made a lot of poor decisions, indicative of arrogance rather than panic.
3. I have sympathy for that.
4. He should be criticised.
5. If he had apologised and fronted up, he'd have got away with it. Using the kid as an excuse is poor form.
6. Media witch hunts are always deeply unpleasant to watch, even when directed at an odious individual like Cummings, whose mistreatment of others is legendary.3 -
-
You're far from alone in your view:Morris_Dancer said:As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1265557666128150529?s=20
It could have been so much better to start "Did Dominic Cummings break the rules? The public seem to think so....(plenty of polling evidence to back that up).0 -
Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
Doesn't matter what they go with; they've lost the public now.Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
You can't implement restrictive measures on this scale without huge public support. How they going to implement them when any jerk can turn round and say '...Following my intuition, Guv.'?0 -
Hopefully the surgeons dont check their eye sight by cutting into someone randomly for a shorter time the day before.Alistair said:
Was Cummings seen checking his eye sight nearby?Scrapheap_as_was said:Rather bored about this now. But then I don't have a bet on when he's out....
More concerning to me is the rumoured surge in new Covid cases at our local hospital over the weekend.0 -
Are we adding Stephen Pollard to the list of remoaners and FBPEers now ?
I mean he disagrees with Maitlis but still thinks Cummings should go..0 -
Most beer gardens use wooden tables which is a plus. Enforcing two meters is the challenge But it’s working here in Spain my local can only fit 10 people on the terrace and the landlady won’t let people sit outside their household group. It’s not making much money but better than nothing and provides a route map out of total lockdownAndy_Cooke said:In any case, and away from Cummings - although I'm not on in the evenings (I've found that any social media late in the day makes it very difficult to get a good night's sleep), I noticed both @Cyclefree and @Anabobazina asking about pubs and restaurants being able to open outside venues.
I agree with both of them. I think it's foolish to be opening small shops again before this. The weight of evidence has been piling up that staying 2 metres (or even 1.5 or 1 metres) apart outside is, if not perfectly safe, amongst the lowest risk things that you can do.
I've been banging on for several weeks about finding the low-hanging fruit, and given that we're social creatures and pubs and restaurants are genuinely important parts of our culture, then trying this first would be a good idea. After all, restrictions and social distancing can only last when we all comply with them, and making things more pleasant during social distancing would improve acceptance and maximise the period that we can sustain it if necessary.
I'd suggest starting it at 2 metre gaps between people, requiring a system where people get their own drinks and food while bar staff stand back from them (wearing masks), and having household groups all separated by 2m or more at all times and a time limit of one hour maximum at the site for the household groups, and staying outside at all times (yes, even if it rains). And have it emphasised that this is a trial thing only that will be withdrawn if it looks like it's being abused or R spikes up.
I truly think it would help the mental health of loads of people and help the chances of the relaxed-lockdown-level being sustained as long as necessary, while giving the least chance of a spike in Covid-19 cases. It does look very much like one of those low hanging fruits I've been banging on about until everyone's bored of me.0 -
QUARANTINE WITH THE VIRUS IS NOT THE SAME AS LOCKDOWNTGOHF666 said:
Then Starmer is a liar as at least 2 Labour MPs have been identified as breaking the lockdown.LostPassword said:
Keir Starmer said very clearly that in Boris Johnson's position he would have sacked Cummings. This leaves him zero wriggle room if someone important on his side was travelling while infected.edmundintokyo said:Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.
It was particularly clever because, rather than directly call for Cummings to resign, it turns the focus onto Johnson's judgement not to fire him and his complicity.
Starmer can't credibly criticise Johnson's lack of leadership and then fail to act in a similar situation. If any of his senior team have broken self-isolation rules then we can expect that they will be instantly told to go.
3 or 4 of you keep trying to pretend the 2 are the same and loads of people keep calling you out on it. You are either thick (which I on't believe you are) or deliberately trying to mislead people.
Fortunately, as the Mail poll showed last night, the public aren't buying your pathetic attempts to justify Cummings actions leaving home when he and his family had Covid-19.
2 -
If someone denies something, and has yet to be convicted in a court of law are there any circumstances where a newscaster should be able to say someone has broken the rule?CarlottaVance said:
You're far from alone in your view:Morris_Dancer said:As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1265557666128150529?s=20
It could have been so much better to start "Did Dominic Cummings break the rules? The public seem to think so....(plenty of polling evidence to back that up).
If not, that is quite a strange position.
If there are, it would be surprising if everyone had the same view on the combination of the threshold and where a particular case fits on that spectrum.
In summary, its complicated and I think you have to give newscasters some space to do as they see fit.0 -
Your best post since FridayTGOHF666 said:.
.1 -
Then: Brexit is done, suck it up remoaner, libtard losers.Charles said:
It’s opponents of Brexit saying it’s done so they can undermine it in the backgroundBig_G_NorthWales said:Good morning
Cummings should resign but he does not care.
Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished
However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.
I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO
Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome
Brexit is not done
Now: Stop saying Brexit is done remoaner, libtard losers, you're just trying to undermine it.
1 -
I see that we are still focused on the absolute trivia of Cummings travel plans rather than the scandal that several thousand more jobs will be lost today (and tomorrow, and the next day) because of a lockdown that can safely be lifted in at least the vast bulk of the country with social distancing and adequate precautions.
As it happens I gave an online talk on this yesterday. The government has (and has had since 11th May) excellent advice covering 8 sectors of the economy designed to mitigate risk. It is well written, clear and helpful. It can be found here for those interested: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19
This is more than enough for most of our economy to get back to work now and I have no doubt similar guidance could be produced for restaurants and cafes. Pubs without outdoor gardens may be a bit more challenging.
We need to move on from this. I can't help feeling that a public sector who have been cossetted from the pain is so risk adverse that they would rather burn endless businesses than have anyone asking a question of them.0 -
Doesn't matter what happens now. He's likely to stay, though, allowing the Opposition tack the phrase "...that continues to employ Dominic Cummings" onto any statement about the Government for as long as it is effective. Which is a win for SKS.0
-
The government have been letting it slip that track and trace outcomes will not be compulsory - Hancock talking about "civic duty".
An admission that the police cannot possibly expect to enforce this - thankfully.
The frothiteers of the Daily Mail etc will have a field day of outrage in the weeks ahead as some people choose to ignore "civic duty" or track n trace doesn't catch every case to the umpteenth degree.
" MP went to a garden centre just days after being on a train where there was a known outbreak near the drivers uncles village !"
"Track n tracers fail to inform man who ate sandwich near spot where outbreak victim passed on bicycle ! "
0 -
In other words, he has to go because of populism. The will of the people is that he goes. A significant chunk of the population won't accept the restrictions to come because of what they believe the Cummings family has done.Peter_the_Punter said:Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
Doesn't matter what they go with; they've lost the public now.Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
You can't implement restrictive measures on this scale without huge public support. How they going to implement them when any jerk can turn round and say '...Following my intuition, Guv.'?
It was always going to end like this. Being a hardcore popular politician is like riding a tiger. Great until you want to get off.1 -
I'm astonished they've only found two....so far....
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1265568428187881472?s=201 -
That is true.Peter_the_Punter said:Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
Doesn't matter what they go with; they've lost the public now.Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
You can't implement restrictive measures on this scale without huge public support. How they going to implement them when any jerk can turn round and say '...Following my intuition, Guv.'?
My fear is the super quick easing in England has helped mitigate Cummings explain away his misdeeds. The government knew the Cummings affair was coming down the line weeks ago so unlocking quickly, with families partying on beaches as the story broke has taken some of the sting out of it.
Now, were the government always intent on unlocking weeks before Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland or was there something more sinister afoot?0 -
Apart from anything else, are others not struck by how inept Cummings has proved himself? He's always portrayed as this fantastically intellegint master-strategist, yet he's come up with a plan which your average kid-with-hand-in-cookie jar could have bettered.
The fairy story involving the Castle wouldn't impose on a bunch of four year olds.
Do you reckon the kid could be persuaded to talk?
1 -
Id have thought it would be two that were okay!CarlottaVance said:I'm astonished they've only found two....so far....
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1265568428187881472?s=200 -
If people can meet in gardens why can’t cafe/pub/restaurant gardens be open? There is no difference.TGOHF666 said:0 -
I thought NI was leading the unlockdown with groups of 10 allowed for a while now?Mexicanpete said:
That is true.Peter_the_Punter said:Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
Doesn't matter what they go with; they've lost the public now.Mexicanpete said:
'We are following the science, unless it comprises Dominic Cummings' alibi'.Scott_xP said:Government messaging continues to dissolve
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1265562685527281665
Govt has rejected the SAGE models
We are following the science, except when we're not...
You can't implement restrictive measures on this scale without huge public support. How they going to implement them when any jerk can turn round and say '...Following my intuition, Guv.'?
My fear is the super quick easing in England has helped mitigate Cummings explain away his misdeeds. The government knew the Cummings affair was coming down the line weeks ago so unlocking quickly, with families partying on beaches as the story broke has taken some of the sting out of it.
Now, were the government always intent on unlocking weeks before Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland or was there something more sinister afoot?0 -
https://twitter.com/jackbern23/status/1265212205605310464?s=19Charles said:
You seem strangely interested in my posting!Alistair said:
Charles is running a perfect interference pattern for Dom here. It is textbook classic. All while saying he never defended Cummings.IshmaelZ said:
*Tunes smallest violin for performance of world's most cheesily sentimental tune* I am guessing you would pay some attention to its being lethally dangerous to others, illegal, potentially career destroying and not in her or her child's own best interest.Charles said:
I don’t know if you’re married...Pro_Rata said:I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.
Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.
But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
My view
1. Cummings is an idiot
2. He made a poor decision in a panic
3. I have sympathy for that
4. He should be criticised
5. But it doesn’t rise to a sacking - fundamentally this was not “I want to go away for the weekend” or “I want to have a shag” it was “I’m worried about my kid”
6. This is a media witch hunt which is deeply unpleasant to watch
2 -
Masterful inactivity from Starmer.DougSeal said:Doesn't matter what happens now. He's likely to stay, though, allowing the Opposition tack the phrase "...that continues to employ Dominic Cummings" onto any statement about the Government for as long as it is effective. Which is a win for SKS.
0 -
Surely southern Spain is the top working class emigration destination.Socky said:
I wonder if there is more working class emigration to (and therefore contact with) Aus/NZ/USA?NickPalmer said:I wouldn't have thought that most people have given much thought to whether they are closer culturally to Australia or somewhere else. Have you ever actually heard even one working-class voter express a view on this?
Whereas the middle classes head for France/Algarve/Tuscany?0 -
Lets face it, without a working app it is no more than a sticking plaster that will, at best, encourage those most at risk such as members of the family to self isolate for a period. In February I linked to what SK were doing then in terms of putting the journeys of those found to have been infected onine so people could check their own exposure with the data coming from their phones. February. Its frustrating because it allows our politicians to be even more pathetic about doing what needs to be done.TGOHF666 said:The government have been letting it slip that track and trace outcomes will not be compulsory - Hancock talking about "civic duty".
An admission that the police cannot possibly expect to enforce this - thankfully.
The frothiteers of the Daily Mail etc will have a field day of outrage in the weeks ahead as some people choose to ignore "civic duty" or track n trace doesn't catch every case to the umpteenth degree.
" MP went to a garden centre just days after being on a train where there was a known outbreak near the drivers uncles village !"
"Track n tracers fail to inform man who ate sandwich near spot where outbreak victim passed on bicycle ! "0 -
Correct !Cyclefree said:
If people can meet in gardens why can’t cafe/pub/restaurant gardens be open? There is no difference.TGOHF666 said:
And the government needs to pass judgements back onto the now informed public - Raab waffling on about enforcement on barbeques is telling.
Let the people choose - the curve was flattened and the NHS was not overwhelmed.
0 -
.
No, I enjoy reading your posts. And even agree with many of them.Andy_Cooke said:In any case, and away from Cummings - although I'm not on in the evenings (I've found that any social media late in the day makes it very difficult to get a good night's sleep), I noticed both @Cyclefree and @Anabobazina asking about pubs and restaurants being able to open outside venues.
I agree with both of them. I think it's foolish to be opening small shops again before this. The weight of evidence has been piling up that staying 2 metres (or even 1.5 or 1 metres) apart outside is, if not perfectly safe, amongst the lowest risk things that you can do.
I've been banging on for several weeks about finding the low-hanging fruit, and given that we're social creatures and pubs and restaurants are genuinely important parts of our culture, then trying this first would be a good idea. After all, restrictions and social distancing can only last when we all comply with them, and making things more pleasant during social distancing would improve acceptance and maximise the period that we can sustain it if necessary.
I'd suggest starting it at 2 metre gaps between people, requiring a system where people get their own drinks and food while bar staff stand back from them (wearing masks), and having household groups all separated by 2m or more at all times and a time limit of one hour maximum at the site for the household groups, and staying outside at all times (yes, even if it rains). And have it emphasised that this is a trial thing only that will be withdrawn if it looks like it's being abused or R spikes up.
I truly think it would help the mental health of loads of people and help the chances of the relaxed-lockdown-level being sustained as long as necessary, while giving the least chance of a spike in Covid-19 cases. It does look very much like one of those low hanging fruits I've been banging on about until everyone's bored of me. 3 -
It is - but I tend to agree that this stepped over the mark, even if I understand the motivation.noneoftheabove said:
If someone denies something, and has yet to be convicted in a court of law are there any circumstances where a newscaster should be able to say someone has broken the rule?CarlottaVance said:
You're far from alone in your view:Morris_Dancer said:As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.
However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1265557666128150529?s=20
It could have been so much better to start "Did Dominic Cummings break the rules? The public seem to think so....(plenty of polling evidence to back that up).
If not, that is quite a strange position.
If there are, it would be surprising if everyone had the same view on the combination of the threshold and where a particular case fits on that spectrum.
In summary, its complicated and I think you have to give newscasters some space to do as they see fit.
It would have been easy to express all of those points in a more nuanced manner. And one should expect that of an experienced journalist.0 -
It beats any of the disgusting smears you post day after day.bigjohnowls said:
Your best post since FridayTGOHF666 said:.
.0 -
https://twitter.com/FORDHAM68/status/1265521668413444099/photo/1
Be interesting to see what Starmer has to say about this0 -
Regarding the USA,I've always felt the UK readily absorbs the worst bits but fails to successfully adopt the best bits.SouthamObserver said:
I always think of Australians as Brits trying to be American and not quite managing it. The countries we are closest to understand that English does not equate to British. I’d say that outside the UK that’s Australia, NZ, Ireland and white South Africa.IanB2 said:
Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.HYUFD said:
We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.OnlyLivingBoy said:
The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.HYUFD said:
Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.StuartDickson said:
The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.SouthamObserver said:Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.
Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
I said Anglosphere for a reason0 -
Can we not dunk him to see if you are right?CD13 said:Mr Charles,
There is a witch hunt going on, which is unpleasant, but he is a witch.0
