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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,369
    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,909
    edited May 2020
    Cummings is BoJo's duck house. You can keep on defending it, but it's falling on deaf ears'

    Oh, and the MSM have always thought they rule the country. It used to be the Church and the Army. but now for the thickos of posh families, it's the MSM.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    Not really. Britain, unlike the US but like the rest of Europe is basically a secular society.
    So what, Trump was not elected on a religious agenda, he was elected on an anti globalisation, pro sovereignty agenda, just like Boris and Brexit. It was a similar story when Abbott and Morrison won in Australia.

    Some European countries like Italy, Poland and Greece are just as religious as the US if not more so
    Poland, perhaps, but you don’t know Italy very well.
    Oh yes I do.

    72% of Italians say religion is important to them, even higher than the 69% of Americans who say that

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,095

    TGOHF666 said:

    Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.

    Keir Starmer said very clearly that in Boris Johnson's position he would have sacked Cummings. This leaves him zero wriggle room if someone important on his side was travelling while infected.

    It was particularly clever because, rather than directly call for Cummings to resign, it turns the focus onto Johnson's judgement not to fire him and his complicity.

    Starmer can't credibly criticise Johnson's lack of leadership and then fail to act in a similar situation. If any of his senior team have broken self-isolation rules then we can expect that they will be instantly told to go.
    Then Starmer is a liar as at least 2 Labour MPs have been identified as breaking the lockdown.
    Which Labour MPs have left home while infectious with the Coronavirus?
    Which Labour MPs were the senior government advisor who went to the SAGE group and helped write the STAY HOME SAVE LIVES instruction?
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    Foxy said:

    Once again PB Tories unable to tell the difference between lockdown (of the clinically well) and Self Isolation (of the clinically unwell).

    I don't think it stupidity, more an example of mendacity.

    You think the public in general know or care?

    One rule for "tories", no rules for lefties.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,460
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Sorry, when people say Anglosphere they usually include the largest English-speaking country in the world. Australia is gradually becoming more American and less British, I think. The most British country I have ever spent time in, incidentally, is Barbados. Elsewhere in the Caribbean it's known as Little England and you can see why.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,592

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    "At some stage, surely, Cummings himself is going to realise the damage his stand is doing to the party and the PM."

    He doesn't care

    How can Cummings possibly damage the government? He is the government.

    Deep thought: People are talking like Kier Starmer not calling for Cummings to resign is a sign of cunning tactical genius, but maybe it means Kier Starmer knows that someone important on the Labour side broke the lockdown.

    Keir Starmer said very clearly that in Boris Johnson's position he would have sacked Cummings. This leaves him zero wriggle room if someone important on his side was travelling while infected.

    It was particularly clever because, rather than directly call for Cummings to resign, it turns the focus onto Johnson's judgement not to fire him and his complicity.

    Starmer can't credibly criticise Johnson's lack of leadership and then fail to act in a similar situation. If any of his senior team have broken self-isolation rules then we can expect that they will be instantly told to go.
    Starmer may be dull, but he is totally in charge and clearly has no-one he depends upon as much as the PM depends upon Cummings.

    I've been very surprised by him. He's shown a determined even ruthless streak. Iron fist inside the velvet glove?
    Yes indeed. His backroom clear out has been masterfully and swiftly done. Not only a minimum of objections, but a palpable relief that professionalism and preparation is back.

    The Labour Party has finished its Cultural Revolution, the Gang of Four are on their way out, and Deng Xiaoping in charge.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,095
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Rose, I suspect they will let him hang around.

    They shouldn't. Thatcher won a landslide in her last election. Didn't stop them axing her.

    The PM isn't up to the job.

    Thatcher was only toppled when the Tories fell over 10% behind Kinnock's Labour and Major and Heseltine polled ahead of Labour.

    The Tories still have a poll lead under Boris
    For now. I know that you can see the almost vertical trajectory of all the metrics. The headline who would you vote for. The confidence in the PM. How he is rated. All collapsing. A poll is a snapshot in time. The driver behind the metrics didn't stop at the point that snapshot was taken. The velocity of the change is so clear that even you can see it.

    Yet you still post Comical Ali everything is fine posts and make the rest if us roll our eyes. I take it that it's a deliberate tactic for some reason as surely someone as erudite as yourself can't be that dumb as to actually believe what you are writing
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,540
    edited May 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not Canada. We share ties, but it’s a very different country. Australia and New Zealand, for sure, and Ireland, of course.

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,783

    There is a lingering identity with Johnson's Tories with leave voters especially in the red wall. He got Brexit done for them, they respect that. But Brexit was done before all this Coronavirus broke out now their focus is on work and family. There are some obsessives insisting the Brexit war isn't over but to normals out there it is. That was the whole point behind the her Brexit done slogan and political conditioning. There was a date we left and everything - its on the past.

    The only mention that Brexit gets now it's done is in relation to the post Brexit developments like us being tied to shitty US imports. "That's not the Brexit we voted for" was a clear theme of popular comments on the Mail. If the likes of HYUFD keep fighting the "we need to get Brexit done" war when most normals know it is already done whilst they're not happy about what's been done since, that lingering identity with Johnson's Tories already under massive pressure from Cumgate will fall away.

    They identified with Johnson's Tories to get Brexit done. He delivered. We left. It's done. Having changed identity once what makes you so insistent they won't change back if their Brexit turns to shit and the prosperous future they wanted is what away by an arrogant fool breaking the rules and taking their jobs and their lives away?

    Decision time on trade deal progress is soon. Is the crunch soon enough that, if they can tough out this week, their dead cat could be concocting a furious row and walk out from those talks and confirming WTO?

    If the voters have moved on, it'd then be interesting to see the reaction in the polls. A few months ago that'd be a sure fire way of firming up the Tory share. Does that still apply?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Rose, I suspect they will let him hang around.

    They shouldn't. Thatcher won a landslide in her last election. Didn't stop them axing her.

    The PM isn't up to the job.

    Thatcher was only toppled when the Tories fell over 10% behind Kinnock's Labour and Major and Heseltine polled ahead of Labour.

    The Tories still have a poll lead under Boris
    But they do now have a poll saviour in Rishi Sunak so Boris no longer looks indispensible as a vote-winner.
    The Tories still are ahead in the polls, they do not need a poll saviour
    The point wasn't, as I read it, that they needed a saviour, but that TINA is no longer supporting Johnson.

    A problem for Johnson is that he has never been widely trusted or liked by colleagues. The approach is "he's a sh1t, but he's our sh1t, and all the duplicity, preening vanity and laziness are worth it because he is a winner and others aren't - he has cut through to the public".

    That was never really an issue for the likes of May, Cameron, Thatcher and Major. There was a pretty widespread and genuine affection among colleagues for these people. That meant a lot of MPs would stand with them through tough times (though even then there were limits).

    With Johnson, for a very large number of Tory MPs, the moment Johnson is no longer the best person for the Tory Party's electoral prospects, why bother?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Rose, I suspect they will let him hang around.

    They shouldn't. Thatcher won a landslide in her last election. Didn't stop them axing her.

    The PM isn't up to the job.

    Thatcher was only toppled when the Tories fell over 10% behind Kinnock's Labour and Major and Heseltine polled ahead of Labour.

    The Tories still have a poll lead under Boris
    For now. I know that you can see the almost vertical trajectory of all the metrics. The headline who would you vote for. The confidence in the PM. How he is rated. All collapsing. A poll is a snapshot in time. The driver behind the metrics didn't stop at the point that snapshot was taken. The velocity of the change is so clear that even you can see it.

    Yet you still post Comical Ali everything is fine posts and make the rest if us roll our eyes. I take it that it's a deliberate tactic for some reason as surely someone as erudite as yourself can't be that dumb as to actually believe what you are writing
    All the main movement from last night's Yougov since GE19 was LD to Labour, rather like you, there was near zero movement from Tory to Labour amongst 2019 Tory voters.

    The Tories voteshare of 44% was also identical to GE19
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,369
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), should've been axed after the McAlpine disgrace.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    TGOHF666 said:
    This is a joke. We were told the science directed a very carefully staged unlocking which would be controlled by a kind of traffic light system that would constantly check on R.

    To save Cummings by diverting the public they are now rushing out every possible unlocking idea they can think of.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    Did her monologue end there ?

    Change it’s name to Viewsnight and put it on PPV. Wouldn’t last a week.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    Pro_Rata said:

    There is a lingering identity with Johnson's Tories with leave voters especially in the red wall. He got Brexit done for them, they respect that. But Brexit was done before all this Coronavirus broke out now their focus is on work and family. There are some obsessives insisting the Brexit war isn't over but to normals out there it is. That was the whole point behind the her Brexit done slogan and political conditioning. There was a date we left and everything - its on the past.

    The only mention that Brexit gets now it's done is in relation to the post Brexit developments like us being tied to shitty US imports. "That's not the Brexit we voted for" was a clear theme of popular comments on the Mail. If the likes of HYUFD keep fighting the "we need to get Brexit done" war when most normals know it is already done whilst they're not happy about what's been done since, that lingering identity with Johnson's Tories already under massive pressure from Cumgate will fall away.

    They identified with Johnson's Tories to get Brexit done. He delivered. We left. It's done. Having changed identity once what makes you so insistent they won't change back if their Brexit turns to shit and the prosperous future they wanted is what away by an arrogant fool breaking the rules and taking their jobs and their lives away?

    Decision time on trade deal progress is soon. Is the crunch soon enough that, if they can tough out this week, their dead cat could be concocting a furious row and walk out from those talks and confirming WTO?

    If the voters have moved on, it'd then be interesting to see the reaction in the polls. A few months ago that'd be a sure fire way of firming up the Tory share. Does that still apply?
    63% of Tory voters oppose extending the transition period

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1261323480903147521?s=20
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,244
    Scott_xP said:
    Cummings has pretensions that go way beyond being a spin doctor. The defenestration of Sajid Javid shows that he is central to the direction of government policy.

    This is why he can't be easily discarded like any other adviser. As he himself said, he's a decision-maker. He's in charge.

    The government as we've known it since Johnson became PM would be over if Cummings leaves.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    I always think of Australians as Brits trying to be American and not quite managing it. The countries we are closest to understand that English does not equate to British. I’d say that outside the UK that’s Australia, NZ, Ireland and white South Africa.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,043
    Scott_xP said:
    Perhaps he will learn something from all this, after all.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    edited May 2020
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.

    The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,205
    edited May 2020
    In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:

    The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.

    That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/plan-now-for-summer-drought-livestock-farmers-told
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
    Nigelb said:

    Perhaps he will learn something from all this, after all.

    I doubt it
  • The fines stuff seems like another total own goal.

    What is happening in HMG?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924
    What comes next? The Tories will double down:
    1. No trade deal with the EU much more likely.
    2. The culture wars go nuclear.
    3. Further anti-immigrant measures.
    4. Moves to curtail Parliamentary and judicial scrutiny of the government.
    5. The BBC licence fee scrapped.
    But whether it will now be as effective remains to be seen.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
    No ministerial resignations so far today.

    Maybe the peak is past...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,540
    edited May 2020
    ydoethur said:

    In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:

    The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.

    That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/plan-now-for-summer-drought-livestock-farmers-told

    Aren't you a few days early?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Cummings has pretensions that go way beyond being a spin doctor. The defenestration of Sajid Javid shows that he is central to the direction of government policy.

    This is why he can't be easily discarded like any other adviser. As he himself said, he's a decision-maker. He's in charge.

    The government as we've known it since Johnson became PM would be over if Cummings leaves.
    The pretensions are quite absurd though.

    He's an effective spin doctor. I see scant evidence that he's a wise policy advisor, and certainly not an indispensable one (although plainly he has such a high opinion of his abilities that he thinks he is, and Johnson has bought that).
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Buy a map?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,540
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    The upper middle class in the UK may have more in common with Europe, hence they voted Remain.

    The working class and lower middle classes here would certainly say they are closer culturally to Australia and New Zealand than continental Europe, hence they voted Leave
    The mere fact that you describe and ascribe British society in such terms makes my point.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    ydoethur said:

    In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:

    The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.

    That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/plan-now-for-summer-drought-livestock-farmers-told

    Well done for posting this. I do think the dry conditions are not being commented on as much as they should be. Feels like we are headed into a really really hot summer. Climate change will be back on the agenda in that case, especially if the plague does successfully down die for a few months.

    My garden is certainly starting to get parched.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404
    TGOHF666 said:

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    For the BBC this is existential - they need Starmer in ASAP or it's good bye to those well paid comfy secure jobs.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
  • Labour are not yet winning on competence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498

    It's not a fact.

    He admitted it

    On live TV
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450

    TGOHF666 said:
    This is a joke. We were told the science directed a very carefully staged unlocking which would be controlled by a kind of traffic light system that would constantly check on R.

    To save Cummings by diverting the public they are now rushing out every possible unlocking idea they can think of.
    Of course, whatever they might have been planning to do, there is inevitably going to be the suspicion now that every decision on relaxation is politically influenced. Particularly ones that concern family reunions ...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
    Do they make you start work at 8, by the way?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,477
    The Government might as well hold on to him at this point, he's got a competent plan for government I suspect - something I reckon Johnson lacks. If you were going to ditch him, yesterday was really the latest it could have been done and look credible.
    Otherwise you're doing what ? Saying re-editing a blog post is a more egregious sin than breaking quarantine ?! (The only new detail to emerge)
    All the reaction was perfectly forseeable too so better to stick with competent hypocrites else we're into a government of incompetent hypocrisy and a weak one that shows it is more concerned with how it's perceived in the press rather than actually doing the right thing if Cummings goes now.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    Chris said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
    Do they make you start work at 8, by the way?
    I don't do this for work any more than you do.
  • Socky said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    For the BBC this is existential - they need Starmer in ASAP or it's good bye to those well paid comfy secure jobs.

    They don't need Starmer in. They merely need Cummings/Johnson to not have sufficient political capital to burn on a very controversial fight over a national broadcaster that retains a lot of public support.

    They also benefit from the fact the current BBC Charter runs to 2026, so the time this really comes into play is mid-term in the next Parliament.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924
    ydoethur said:

    In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:

    The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.

    That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/plan-now-for-summer-drought-livestock-farmers-told

    I noticed it! Our poor water management means we’ll get to serious shortages way before we should. Very little sign of any rain in the forecast.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,481
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Buy a map?
    Culturally not geographically
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    Scott_xP said:

    It's not a fact.

    He admitted it

    On live TV
    No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules. On live TV. Get your facts straight.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450

    Chris said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
    Do they make you start work at 8, by the way?
    I don't do this for work any more than you do.
    Well I thought you must consider it more than just a job, considering the effort you put into it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,244
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:

    The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.

    That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/plan-now-for-summer-drought-livestock-farmers-told

    Aren't you a few days early?
    The weather forecast for the rest of May is dry enough, with sufficient confidence, that we can draw those conclusions now.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,818

    Scott_xP said:

    It's not a fact.

    He admitted it

    On live TV
    No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules. On live TV. Get your facts straight.
    He said he didn't think he had broken any rules. Others, including Jeremy Hunt differ in their opinion.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,540

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
    Of course, but the debate was a contrast and compare, not a value judgement.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498

    No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.

    The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.

    It broke the rules

    He admitted to it

    On live TV
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,460

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
    Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
    I see another cabinet minister has totally managed to kill the story and not generate another day of bad headlines.

    Oh, wait...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,095
    Pro_Rata said:

    There is a lingering identity with Johnson's Tories with leave voters especially in the red wall. He got Brexit done for them, they respect that. But Brexit was done before all this Coronavirus broke out now their focus is on work and family. There are some obsessives insisting the Brexit war isn't over but to normals out there it is. That was the whole point behind the her Brexit done slogan and political conditioning. There was a date we left and everything - its on the past.

    The only mention that Brexit gets now it's done is in relation to the post Brexit developments like us being tied to shitty US imports. "That's not the Brexit we voted for" was a clear theme of popular comments on the Mail. If the likes of HYUFD keep fighting the "we need to get Brexit done" war when most normals know it is already done whilst they're not happy about what's been done since, that lingering identity with Johnson's Tories already under massive pressure from Cumgate will fall away.

    They identified with Johnson's Tories to get Brexit done. He delivered. We left. It's done. Having changed identity once what makes you so insistent they won't change back if their Brexit turns to shit and the prosperous future they wanted is what away by an arrogant fool breaking the rules and taking their jobs and their lives away?

    Decision time on trade deal progress is soon. Is the crunch soon enough that, if they can tough out this week, their dead cat could be concocting a furious row and walk out from those talks and confirming WTO?

    If the voters have moved on, it'd then be interesting to see the reaction in the polls. A few months ago that'd be a sure fire way of firming up the Tory share. Does that still apply?
    What does WTO even mean? So many Tory Brexiteer MPs don't know what it means never mind the man or woman on the street. They wanted away from Europe. They didn't know how Europe worked just that it was a Bad Thing. They didn't have a clue or frankly care what we did after we left the EU. So "come back, we've delivered you WTO here's some shitey food imposed by Trump" isn't going to be the triumph some Tories might consider. Again, most popular comments on the Mail Here Comes Shitey Food story was "This isn't the Brexit I voted for".

    Brexit was supposed to make things better. Not worse. Now that Brexit is done the Tories better hope things are better.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,095
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Rose, I suspect they will let him hang around.

    They shouldn't. Thatcher won a landslide in her last election. Didn't stop them axing her.

    The PM isn't up to the job.

    Thatcher was only toppled when the Tories fell over 10% behind Kinnock's Labour and Major and Heseltine polled ahead of Labour.

    The Tories still have a poll lead under Boris
    For now. I know that you can see the almost vertical trajectory of all the metrics. The headline who would you vote for. The confidence in the PM. How he is rated. All collapsing. A poll is a snapshot in time. The driver behind the metrics didn't stop at the point that snapshot was taken. The velocity of the change is so clear that even you can see it.

    Yet you still post Comical Ali everything is fine posts and make the rest if us roll our eyes. I take it that it's a deliberate tactic for some reason as surely someone as erudite as yourself can't be that dumb as to actually believe what you are writing
    All the main movement from last night's Yougov since GE19 was LD to Labour, rather like you, there was near zero movement from Tory to Labour amongst 2019 Tory voters.

    The Tories voteshare of 44% was also identical to GE19
    Apparently you are that dumb.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    Scott_xP said:

    No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.

    The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.

    It broke the rules

    He admitted to it

    On live TV
    Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it. He's not been convicted of anything so it's alleged he broke the rules not shown he has. Your being on a witch-hunt doesn't make it right.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498

    Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it.

    Driving because you think you can't see is not safe.

    It may also be illegal
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,769
    Government still on the ropes, tangled up in lies and spin.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406
    Scott_xP said:
    People always had to make personal judgements. Only a moron would think otherwise.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Scott_xP said:
    The jackboot compulsion part of lockdown is over.

    Thank god.

    Now open the pubs.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 9,460
    Morning all. Good piece in Poitico about why Cummings won't go.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/26/britain-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings-282633

    Unusual for a US site to cover a local UK issue so prominently.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,095

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
    Its prima facie. Even the majority of Tory voters can see that. The court of public opinion has sat and looked at the evidence and looked at his various testimonies written and spoken and judged him to be lying through his teeth.

    Those of you insisting he remains innocent - how long will you keep this up? I hope for a long long time - his presence in the government is a marvellous boost to the Labour Party.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,406

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
    Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
    There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498

    There's nothing wrong with selfishness.

    In a pandemic, it's deadly
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450
    Scott_xP said:
    Really what we're being told in Cummings's defence is that anyone who thinks they're at risk of harm can reasonable travel if they think it's appropriate. Including people with COVID-19 symptoms.

    And we're being told that just at the time when the isolation of people with symptoms is about to become most important.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    edited May 2020

    TGOHF666 said:

    As has been clear, I think Cummings should go and the PM erred greatly in this.

    However, just seen a Newsnight clip and I think this openly opinionated approach to presenting current affairs coverage is pretty wretched, especially when coming from a state broadcaster funded via taxation. It doesn't alter my view of Cummings/Johnson whatsoever, of course, but it does reinforce my decision to stop watching current affairs coverage as much. I don't need a presenter to tell me what my opinion is, or should be, and I don't need to know what their views are either.

    https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1265406013961842691

    Newsnight is a joke of a program these days - and viewing figures reflect that.

    "Dominic Cummings broke the rules"

    is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact. No jury in the land would say he didn't.
    It's not a fact. No jury nor anyone else has convicted him. The word to use with allegations is "allegedly"
    It is acceptable to make an assertion as to fact without the word “allegedly” and without a court agreeing. I do it all day every day. If lawyers chucked the word “allegedly” in every time they asserted a fact in a letter before claim to an opponent, or a pleading, it would actually be used against them to suggest they did not believe what they had asserted. Bad drafting. In the context of the message board, Mr Borough was either being truthful or giving an honest opinion, both of which clearly allow him to to make those assertions as to fact without this farcical HIGNFY inspired habit of putting “allegedly” in every sentence as some sort of magic anti-defamation spell.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    Scott_xP said:
    People always had to make personal judgements. Only a moron would think otherwise.
    I think the FBPE mob were hoping the cops would be enforcing track and trace. As per in Scotland.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594
    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Really what we're being told in Cummings's defence is that anyone who thinks they're at risk of harm can reasonable travel if they think it's appropriate. Including people with COVID-19 symptoms.

    And we're being told that just at the time when the isolation of people with symptoms is about to become most important.
    Track and trace is dead. Let's hope Prof Gupta is right about the virus.
  • SockySocky Posts: 404

    They don't need Starmer in. They merely need Cummings/Johnson to not have sufficient political capital to burn on a very controversial fight over a national broadcaster that retains a lot of public support.

    I largely agree (I was aiming for pithy and overshot). Not sure about the scale of public support bit though.

    They also benefit from the fact the current BBC Charter runs to 2026, so the time this really comes into play is mid-term in the next Parliament.

    If we can ban IC cars in 2035 then we can legislate now to reform the BBC in 2026.

    Would Sir K. really expend his political capital reversing that?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,244

    ydoethur said:

    In key news that is being missed due to Covid 19 and Dominic Cummings’ novel method of testing his eyes:

    The UK has just had its driest May for 124 years, its driest spring since 2011, and its fifth driest spring of all time.

    That doesn’t mean we’re facing immediate prolonged water shortages as the winter was of course very wet. That said, rivers are dropping steadily. It has unfortunate implications for food prices.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/plan-now-for-summer-drought-livestock-farmers-told

    I noticed it! Our poor water management means we’ll get to serious shortages way before we should. Very little sign of any rain in the forecast.
    The seasonal forecast for rainfall is much less useful than for temperature, but it's interesting that for the summer it currently forecasts that each extreme, of wet and dry, is more likely than normal.

    Only slightly more likely, but it's an unusual change in the distribution. The forecast for June alone is drier than for the summer as a whole though.
  • Scott_xP said:

    No he did not. He said he met an exception which means no broken rules.

    The Barnard Castle trip met no exceptions.

    It broke the rules

    He admitted to it

    On live TV
    Safety is an exemption. It made sense to do it. He's not been convicted of anything so it's alleged he broke the rules not shown he has. Your being on a witch-hunt doesn't make it right.
    I don't think that's his stated justification.

    I think his argument was that it was essential for work purposes that he physically return to work (his old blog posts won't doctor themselves, and there's famously no internet in Durham). It was therefore necessary to give himself an eye test by driving to a beauty spot with his family on his wife's birthday. When there, he had to leave the car for slightly unclear reasons. It was entirely impossible to return to London with someone else driving, again for unspecified reasons.

    I hope this clears it up.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    Scott_xP said:
    The issue isn't whether Cummings should stay or go now, the biggest concern is the government have completely crashed their own Coronavirus strategy to mitigate Cummings.

    If the second wave doesn't come very soon, well I'm a Dutchman!
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
    Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
    There's nothing wrong with selfishness. Individual and taking responsibility for yourself is a good thing.
    How did I miss you were an Ayn Rand groupie?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    Good morning

    Cummings should resign but he does not care.

    Boris is beholding to him and is prepared to take the flak and they are both diminished

    However, I read on here that some posters say Brexit is done.

    I do not understand why they are so dismissive as it is not done and in the next few weeks, and in the midst of this pandemic, Boris may just walk out of the talks and declare WTO

    Can I assume those saying Brexit is done will just accept a no deal outcome

    Brexit is not done
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Scott_xP said:

    There's nothing wrong with selfishness.

    In a pandemic, it's deadly
    Was a pandemic- and no longer breaking out. It’s fading out.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    TGOHF666 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    People always had to make personal judgements. Only a moron would think otherwise.
    I think the FBPE mob were hoping the cops would be enforcing track and trace. As per in Scotland.

    Care to name some of the ‘FBPE’ mob and what objectives they are pursuing?
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    Scott_xP said:

    If the second wave doesn't come very soon, well I'm a Dutchman!
    There is no second wave.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
    TGOHF666 said:

    Was a pandemic

    At the time Cummings was being selfish.

    Yes, glad we agree
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,460

    Pro_Rata said:

    There is a lingering identity with Johnson's Tories with leave voters especially in the red wall. He got Brexit done for them, they respect that. But Brexit was done before all this Coronavirus broke out now their focus is on work and family. There are some obsessives insisting the Brexit war isn't over but to normals out there it is. That was the whole point behind the her Brexit done slogan and political conditioning. There was a date we left and everything - its on the past.

    The only mention that Brexit gets now it's done is in relation to the post Brexit developments like us being tied to shitty US imports. "That's not the Brexit we voted for" was a clear theme of popular comments on the Mail. If the likes of HYUFD keep fighting the "we need to get Brexit done" war when most normals know it is already done whilst they're not happy about what's been done since, that lingering identity with Johnson's Tories already under massive pressure from Cumgate will fall away.

    They identified with Johnson's Tories to get Brexit done. He delivered. We left. It's done. Having changed identity once what makes you so insistent they won't change back if their Brexit turns to shit and the prosperous future they wanted is what away by an arrogant fool breaking the rules and taking their jobs and their lives away?

    Decision time on trade deal progress is soon. Is the crunch soon enough that, if they can tough out this week, their dead cat could be concocting a furious row and walk out from those talks and confirming WTO?

    If the voters have moved on, it'd then be interesting to see the reaction in the polls. A few months ago that'd be a sure fire way of firming up the Tory share. Does that still apply?
    What does WTO even mean? So many Tory Brexiteer MPs don't know what it means never mind the man or woman on the street. They wanted away from Europe. They didn't know how Europe worked just that it was a Bad Thing. They didn't have a clue or frankly care what we did after we left the EU. So "come back, we've delivered you WTO here's some shitey food imposed by Trump" isn't going to be the triumph some Tories might consider. Again, most popular comments on the Mail Here Comes Shitey Food story was "This isn't the Brexit I voted for".

    Brexit was supposed to make things better. Not worse. Now that Brexit is done the Tories better hope things are better.
    It's the classic Tory playbook: lie about your real motivation for doing something so the public vote for you. Then reveal your true motivation, ignore the public's anger and hope they've forgotten about it four years later. Right now they have a majority of 80 so they can do whatever the hell they want.
    Plenty of people warned the public what the real motivation behind Brexit was. I am not going to shed many tears over Daily Mail readers whining that this wasn't the Brexit they wanted. They should understand that their role in this ended in June 2016. They will get the Brexit that the international donor class want, delivered by their proxies, Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927

    This is no longer about Dominic Cummings. It is about Boris Johnson.

    Indeed. The media have decided to make it a trial of strength do the government can’t afford to lose.

    But unless there is new information why would the government backdown?

    So the media will get bored and move on at some point.

    In the meantime none of the important stuff, like the new lockdown rules, gets air time. But apparently it’s not the media’s fault for not writing about them.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,148

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sadly, I think Cummings is now likely to go. What got us here are those perennial Tory sins: hubris and arrogance. They thought they could do whatever they liked. And until the start of April they probably could. Now, though, a credible alternative is beginning to emerge. What’s notable about that Mail polling is not just that Tory negatives are rising but that Labour ones are falling. The Tories need a new playbook. And they have to find it against the backdrop of a worsening economy in which incomes are stagnant, job losses are mounting and, in the case of a no deal with the EU, prices are likely to be rising. It’s going to be fascinating. My guess is that the culture wars will go nuclear.

    Of course they will. The Tories have become the US Republicans: a party in hock to billionaires and special interests, whose only appeal to the average voter is a platform of barely-concealed racism and resentment of the liberal middle class. The Brexit vote demonstrated that it works here too. Welcome to America.
    The Americanisation of Europe is almost total. It’ll be over within a century.
    Britain is not Europe, otherwise it would not have voted for Brexit.

    Geographically it maybe separated only by the English channel, culturally it is closer to the Anglosphere
    The Anglosphere is a meaningless term. I lived in the US for five years and I have absolutely no doubt that we are closer culturally to other Northern European countries like the Netherlands or Sweden, even Germany and France, than we are to the US. We share a language with the US but in most other respects our attitudes and culture are more like other European countries, hardly surprising when you consider the small matters of history and geography. We are closer to Australia, NZ and Canada than we are to the US. If you look at things like attitudes to religion, guns and the role of government, we are nothing like the US, thank God. Even the leave campaign said we were leaving the EU but not Europe, so don't start rewriting history on that too.
    We are closer to Australia, Canada and New Zealand than Europe or the USA.

    I said Anglosphere for a reason
    Not really. There are aspects of those societies, such as the pioneering spirit, the sense of recent generations having created what they have out of the wilderness, that we don’t have in Europe with our history and surrounded by an environment that has been shaped over long centuries. They also have a culture of greater individualism and pragmatism, with less of the baggage of social class and less intellectualism. Outdoor activities, farming, fishing, hunting, play a more prominent cultural role (notwithstanding nowadays they are mostly city dwellers) than in Europe, and they share with Americans a greater willingness to engage with strangers than do we more introverted Europeans. The superficial politeness that you notice in the US is also a feature of Oz and NZ.
    Individualism, pragmatism, politeness etc are good things.
    Pragmatism and politeness are ok, in moderation. Individualism quite quickly degenerates into its ugly sister, selfishness. In my experience selfishness is the defining feature of US society. I am very nervous about us going the same way, especially post Brexit.
    In the US it gives rise to a paradoxical phenomenon: mass rallies of die-hard individualists who all think the same way about everything.
  • Socky said:

    They don't need Starmer in. They merely need Cummings/Johnson to not have sufficient political capital to burn on a very controversial fight over a national broadcaster that retains a lot of public support.

    I largely agree (I was aiming for pithy and overshot). Not sure about the scale of public support bit though.

    They also benefit from the fact the current BBC Charter runs to 2026, so the time this really comes into play is mid-term in the next Parliament.

    If we can ban IC cars in 2035 then we can legislate now to reform the BBC in 2026.

    Would Sir K. really expend his political capital reversing that?
    There is a Royal Charter which applies until 2026. This isn't, in fact, like an Act of Parliament.

    If you and I have a contract until 2026, and it's rather favourable to you, how would you respond if I said "shall we renegotiate this?" I suspect you'd say, "sure, Sir Norfolk, let's set up a meeting in 2025 to discuss that."

    In a sense, nothing is impossible - there are ways to put pressure on, and Cummings/Johnson have shown a willingness to ignore the constitutional norms. But it does make it a hell of a lot more difficult than if Charter renewal was imminent - we're just not at that point in the cycle.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,594

    Scott_xP said:
    The issue isn't whether Cummings should stay or go now, the biggest concern is the government have completely crashed their own Coronavirus strategy to mitigate Cummings.

    If the second wave doesn't come very soon, well I'm a Dutchman!
    "This is not a request, this is an instruction."

    We all heard those rather chilling words.

    Now, it was all up for interpretation and instinct.

    What kind of banana republic do we now live in?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,477
    TGOHF666 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    There's nothing wrong with selfishness.

    In a pandemic, it's deadly
    Was a pandemic- and no longer breaking out. It’s fading out.
    If a second wave hits will you head back to "Just have to live with it" ?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,450
    TGOHF666 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If the second wave doesn't come very soon, well I'm a Dutchman!
    There is no second wave.
    The big problem is that people like you are simply too stupid to understand how these things work.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,927
    Pro_Rata said:

    I've been fairly sympathetic to Cummings, in that a kid was involved and Ive been willing to give him a hearing. But both the London reasoning (why were you more threatened quarantined in the house than going about your business?) and the Barnard Castle reasoning leave me deeply unconvinced.

    Even if there is truth in his story, the narrative by which Cummings contorted himself into those situations reveals him as either (a) some kind of Gordon Brittas type sitcom fool or (b) chronically henpecked by an inveterate option rejecter. Neither is a great look for a senior government adviser.

    I don’t know if you’re married...

    But if my wife was sick and was insisting on something I might well do it regardless of whether it was a good idea or not.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,498
    Charles said:

    But unless there is new information why would the government backdown?

    Because the information already in the public domain is utterly damning, and their attempts to pretend otherwise will cost lives.

    Apart from that...
This discussion has been closed.