politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Mawkish nursery games. It’s time to leave the Second World War
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Mawkish nursery games. It’s time to leave the Second World War in the history books
The Mail thinks that "VE Day" stands for "victory *over* Europe". A potent mixture of profound ignorance and jingoism, from a paper which had published antisemitic ? about Jewish refugees from Hitler a few years beforehand Ht @CeitidhD pic.twitter.com/1JZzqaMLHD
Comments
-
First, as in out the door like Neil Ferguson this evening...0
-
Wow that is remarkably stupid, even for the Daily Mail. This country really is turning into a pathetic joke.0
-
I suspect the governmet will be destroyed by this situation whether or not they deserve it. But there's no reasonably prospect of being destroyed ahead of time, so 14 years it may be. But it remains tricky even with coronavirus. Partisanship at election time won't disappear.eadric said:A Tory government that loses control of the borders is a Tory government that needs to die. This lot has managed it twice over: illegal immigrants and failed quarantine
Labour should destroy them on this0 -
I assume Morris Dancer has started working for the Mail, that can be the only explanation for such a shocking lack of historical knowledge.0
-
It's much too early to celebrate Victory over Epidemic Day, in my opinion.0
-
Hooray, at last the real thing.0
-
Possibly the best explanation of the NHS app issues, for non-technical people:
https://twitter.com/Psythor/status/12576926388594032660 -
Most of the time talk of wartime nostalgia or reflection is overblown and a stereotype, but it cannot be denied it does happen, and as much as I love history I do agree certain views on certain periods of history can be unhelpful.
I don't quite see following that through to commentary on VE day. This year is, I think, the first time I really recall much of a meal being made of it. That's no doubt not the case, but I honestly don't recall it being mentioned as much in past years.
So while I take a lot of the main thrust of this piece I think it's not the strongest from Mr Meeks, who has some truly hard hitting ones in the catalogue. It feels like it is pushing its theme a bit too hard for the point. It's outrage seems a little bit theatrical and manufactured. Not that it is not there, but not as convincingly so.1 -
What a pointless and fatuous thread header.
And the ultimate irony, using the actions of a newspaper 80 years ago to attack its (admittedly very stupid and ignorant) coverage today.
Exactly the same thing Meeks is railing against.2 -
History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
It is not just us who celebrate VE Day, the Dutch for example call May 4th Liberation Day. As long as veterans are still alive I think it is important to celebrate their efforts in liberating Europe, once the last one passes then may be the time to leave commemorations to Remembrance Sunday.
I think the idea of Vera Lynn singing 'we'll meet again' on Friday at 9pm has great poignancy both for the current situation as well as remembering the War and we will still clap for the NHS on Thursday evening too.
Overall 67% of voters think it is right to celebrate VE Day. 85% of Tories and 80% of Leavers think so but still 60% of Labour voters and 61% of Remainers thinks so too
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1255528727838175238?s=202 -
Right wing political correctness.2
-
You'd think after the Scottish CMO and the NZ Health Minister examples that other high-profile folk in the COVID fight might have learned something from it, but clearly not...
1 -
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?1 -
This is a document comparing European care homes by a variety of different measures. I have barely skimmed through it, and haven’t noticed anything obvious as regards why one country, or one half of the continent, should do better than another in dealing with covid-19, but maybe someone here can and will..
https://www.alzheimer-europe.org/var/plain_site/storage/original/application/f5253c2c572b6e0c28b45922149d2289.pdf0 -
This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter0 -
Given Demis from Deepmind is on SAGE, i can't believe he won't have either been asked about this or raised these issues. It seems on the surface a crazy decision.Sandpit said:Possibly the best explanation of the NHS app issues, for non-technical people:
twitter.com/Psythor/status/1257692638859403266
Even if as suggested the spooks haven given up an exploit, still seems mad.1 -
World War 2 ended when Germany re-unified. Discuss!TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?1 -
There was a lot made of the 75th anniversary of D-Day last year, I think the same may have been true of the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Britain, so there may have been a few years of more WWII remembrance than normal as the 75th anniversary worked its way through the timeline.kle4 said:Most of the time talk of wartime nostalgia or reflection is overblown and a stereotype, but it cannot be denied it does happen, and as much as I love history I do agree certain views on certain periods of history can be unhelpful.
I don't quite see following that through to commentary on VE day. This year is, I think, the first time I really recall much of a meal being made of it. That's no doubt not the case, but I honestly don't recall it being mentioned as much in past years.
So while I take a lot of the main thrust of this piece I think it's not the strongest from Mr Meeks, who has some truly hard hitting ones in the catalogue. It feels like it is pushing its theme a bit too hard for the point.
The main justification for this has been that it's probably the last major milestone that any of the surviving combatants will live to see, and that seems reasonable.
I do worry, though, that the grip of the War on the national psyche has only tightened and that there might be a general tendency to more celebration of past victories, rather than less.1 -
Tick. Meeks spent ages playing the wounded from Brexit game. I had a degree of sympathy. I have none now.Richard_Tyndall said:What a pointless and fatuous thread header.
And the ultimate irony, using the actions of a newspaper 80 years ago to attack its (admittedly very stupid and ignorant) coverage today.
Exactly the same thing Meeks is railing against.2 -
When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
What is wrong with commemorating that? What on earth is wrong with Mr Meeks that he continually wants to put us "in our place", to borrow from the Nick Clegg quote in his post.
We should be celebrating this moment in our history as well as honouring the sacrifices made by those who fought for our freedoms.
Mr Meeks does them, and us, a great disservice. I'm proud of my country and our history. And I won't be made to feel shame for it.2 -
Was there still a state of war at that point? I thought it was wrapped up earlier than that (but well after 45).Sunil_Prasannan said:
World War 2 ended when Germany re-unified. Discuss!TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
My mother lived through the Second World War. She says there was no Blitz spirit. People were depressed because of the death and because nothing worked and at times, when the bombs came, they were frightened,0
-
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter1 -
dup.
0 -
TSE....maybe a little remedial primary school course on Nazism might help you with your dilemma...TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
1 -
We really didn't stand alone.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
What is wrong with commemorating that? What on earth is wrong with Mr Meeks that he continually wants to put us "in our place", to borrow from the Nick Clegg quote in his post.
We should be celebrating this moment in our history as well as honouring the sacrifices made by those who fought for our freedoms.
Mr Meeks does them, and us, a great disservice. I'm proud of my country and our history. And I won't be made to feel shame for it.
All those Empire forces get airbrushed out.5 -
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.0 -
What an odd report by the BBC, ignoring the reason for his resignation.
BBC News - Coronavirus: Prof Neil Ferguson quits government role after 'undermining' lockdown
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-525532290 -
You do know how many died under Stalin's watch?tyson said:
TSE....maybe a little remedial primary school course on Nazism might help you with your dilemma...TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
We should celebrate the Napoleonic wars too. Back then we could manage to bribe half of europe, truly a sign of strength.0
-
Good thread header, thanks.0
-
That moment is gone....we had a window at the beginning of March.....Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Now we are fubared...every which way orifice looks particularly shitty....
0 -
R Delenda Est should be our motto, our classicist PM will appreciate the sentiment.Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter1 -
That communism is seen by quite a lot of people as cuddly or a worthwhile experiment, and even Stalin is not reviled by all, is pretty remarkable.TheScreamingEagles said:
You do know how many died under Stalin's watch?tyson said:
TSE....maybe a little remedial primary school course on Nazism might help you with your dilemma...TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
No, you can keep R down at any point. Just because we fucked up before doesn't mean we need to keep fucking up now.tyson said:
That moment is gone....we had a window at the beginning of March.....Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Now we are fubared...every which way orifice looks particularly shitty....
Most deaths in Europe headlines should keep people indoors for a while longer also.0 -
I understand your point, though, on a technicality, wasn't Churchill's finest hour speech referring to the finest hour in our empire in a thousand years or words to that effect? It is not exactly a PC way of looking at things in 2020, but I think Churchill explicitly meant to praise to the forces of the British Empire in his speech.TheScreamingEagles said:
We really didn't stand alone.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
What is wrong with commemorating that? What on earth is wrong with Mr Meeks that he continually wants to put us "in our place", to borrow from the Nick Clegg quote in his post.
We should be celebrating this moment in our history as well as honouring the sacrifices made by those who fought for our freedoms.
Mr Meeks does them, and us, a great disservice. I'm proud of my country and our history. And I won't be made to feel shame for it.
All those Empire forces get airbrushed out.1 -
Absolutely, the anniversaries of Waterloo, Agincourt, and Mers-el-Kébir should all be national holidays.kle4 said:We should celebrate the Napoleonic wars too. Back then we could manage to bribe half of europe, truly a sign of strength.
All London mainline stations should be renamed after such battles.0 -
Most nation's have myths about their histories which, even where rooted in some level of fact, are to some degree a nonsense. And they can be unhelpful. I have often talked with disdain for those politically living on myths of the 70s and 80s. Though I think many don't have a problem with mythmaking and its imapct, but on which myths to follow.1
-
It didn't end then.Sunil_Prasannan said:
World War 2 ended when Germany re-unified. Discuss!TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
Most of the nineties was consumed by trying to put Mother Russia and all of Eastern Europe under the yoke of the west, only the accession to the throne of Czar Vladimir thwarted that attempt.
After an interlude around oil and religious extremism in the Middle East, the next phase of WWII now revolves around the confrontation with 'Djinah'.
Discuss.
0 -
The first successful Soviet nuclear test was on 29th August 1949. A lot had happened in Eastern Europe before then.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
-
Yes, but WW2 in general only became a national moment in retrospect when we needed to reinterpret it to deal with the loss of empire and global power. Even the union was not seen in the same way before WW2.kyf_100 said:
I understand your point, though, on a technicality, wasn't Churchill's finest hour speech referring to the finest hour in our empire in a thousand years or words to that effect? It is not exactly a PC way of looking at things in 2020, but I think Churchill explicitly meant to praise to the forces of the British Empire in his speech.TheScreamingEagles said:
We really didn't stand alone.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
What is wrong with commemorating that? What on earth is wrong with Mr Meeks that he continually wants to put us "in our place", to borrow from the Nick Clegg quote in his post.
We should be celebrating this moment in our history as well as honouring the sacrifices made by those who fought for our freedoms.
Mr Meeks does them, and us, a great disservice. I'm proud of my country and our history. And I won't be made to feel shame for it.
All those Empire forces get airbrushed out.1 -
They didn’t have them until 1949, by which time Eastern Europe had already been firmly annexed to the Soviet sphere - indeed, off-hand I think the DDR was the last country to have a Communist government of its own imposed, in 1949.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
But actually TSE was quoting Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, A victory for Democracy:
‘All we achieved after six years of war was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. At a cost of millions of lives and the ruination of this country.’1 -
Thinking of bellends like Laurence Fox who have no grasp about our history.kyf_100 said:
I understand your point, though, on a technicality, wasn't Churchill's finest hour speech referring to the finest hour in our empire in a thousand years or words to that effect? It is not exactly a PC way of looking at things in 2020, but I think Churchill explicitly meant to praise to the forces of the British Empire in his speech.TheScreamingEagles said:
We really didn't stand alone.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
What is wrong with commemorating that? What on earth is wrong with Mr Meeks that he continually wants to put us "in our place", to borrow from the Nick Clegg quote in his post.
We should be celebrating this moment in our history as well as honouring the sacrifices made by those who fought for our freedoms.
Mr Meeks does them, and us, a great disservice. I'm proud of my country and our history. And I won't be made to feel shame for it.
All those Empire forces get airbrushed out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51233734
There's a real history of blackwashing.
Papers unearthed by the BBC reveal that British and American commanders ensured that the liberation of Paris on 25 August 1944 was seen as a "whites only" victory.
Many who fought Nazi Germany during World War II did so to defeat the vicious racism that left millions of Jews dead.
Yet the BBC's Document programme has seen evidence that black colonial soldiers - who made up around two-thirds of Free French forces - were deliberately removed from the unit that led the Allied advance into the French capital.
By the time France fell in June 1940, 17,000 of its black, mainly West African colonial troops, known as the Tirailleurs Senegalais, lay dead.
Many of them were simply shot where they stood soon after surrendering to German troops who often regarded them as sub-human savages.
Their chance for revenge came in August 1944 as Allied troops prepared to retake Paris. But despite their overwhelming numbers, they were not to get it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7984436.stm
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/liberation-of-paris-the-hidden-truth-434403.html0 -
Had the Nazis won the Battle of Britain and successfully invaded the UK though the British Empire would have technically become the Nazi Germany Empire though dominions and colonies may have tried to resist thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.0 -
You know when the idiots were twittering on about the behavioural science saying it was too early to lockdown- like early March......Pulpstar said:
No, you can keep R down at any point. Just because we fucked up before doesn't mean we need to keep fucking up now.tyson said:
That moment is gone....we had a window at the beginning of March.....Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Now we are fubared...every which way orifice looks particularly shitty....
Most deaths in Europe headlines should keep people indoors for a while longer also.
Now...it is just too late...that ship has sailed...we had a moment in time to get on top of it and create a fortress UK....
We have this virus...we have to just carry on now....at great cost to human lives and the economy....people are just not going to stand to trying to push down R
0 -
Well, our problem with Mr Hitler wasn't driven by any concern for democracy or human rights.TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?0 -
That was war though too. Better to bribe and not fight than pay the same cost and fight.kle4 said:We should celebrate the Napoleonic wars too. Back then we could manage to bribe half of europe, truly a sign of strength.
The UK perhaps even wanted the war, as it was a bulwark against republican sentiment. (Or so it seeems)
Whatever it takes, and at the least cost. Surely that is war?
0 -
The speech recognises thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
.However matters may go in France or with the French Government or with another French Government, we in this island and in the British Empire will never lose our sense of comradeship with the French people. If we are now called upon to endure what they have been suffering, we shall emulate their courage, and if final victory rewards our toils they shall share the gains, aye. And freedom shall be restored to all. We abate nothing of our just demands—Czechs, Poles, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, all who have joined their causes to our own shall be restored.
What General Weygand has called the Battle of France is over... the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilisation. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be freed and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands.
But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves, that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour."3 -
Of course. A more interesting one and without (for us at least it seems, strangely considering the impact of us winning) the worry of mythologising it too much in our present discourse.Omnium said:
That was war though too. Better to bribe and not fight than pay the same cost and fight.kle4 said:We should celebrate the Napoleonic wars too. Back then we could manage to bribe half of europe, truly a sign of strength.
The UK perhaps even wanted the war, as it was a bulwark against republican sentiment. (Or so it seeems)
Whatever it takes, and at the least cost. Surely that is war?0 -
-
I mean people in India talk about the Holocaust they suffered during WWII thanks to the British when was the last time anyone in the media mentioned that?1
-
There was the little matter of them being our allies and just having won the war for us.TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
It would have looked a tad ungrateful.2 -
France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations and Austria were liberated from Fascism and did not become Communist eitherydoethur said:
They didn’t have them until 1949, by which time Eastern Europe had already been firmly annexed to the Soviet sphere - indeed, off-hand I think the DDR was the last country to have a Communist government of its own imposed, in 1949.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
But actually TSE was quoting Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, A victory for Democracy:
‘All we achieved after six years of war was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. At a cost of millions of lives and the ruination of this country.’0 -
The French Empire didn't fall to the Nazis just because they were occupying Paris.HYUFD said:
Had the Nazis won the Battle of Britain and successfully invaded the UK though the British Empire would have technically become the Nazi Germany Empire though dominions and colonies may have tried to resist thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.0 -
Plenty can be re-opened that won't push up R, fishing lakes spring to mind.. even horse racing without spectators. Manufacturing has always been allowed. Or are you talking about being thirsty for the pub ?tyson said:
You know when the idiots were twittering on about the behavioural science saying it was too early to lockdown- like early March......Pulpstar said:
No, you can keep R down at any point. Just because we fucked up before doesn't mean we need to keep fucking up now.tyson said:
That moment is gone....we had a window at the beginning of March.....Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Now we are fubared...every which way orifice looks particularly shitty....
Most deaths in Europe headlines should keep people indoors for a while longer also.
Now...it is just too late...that ship has sailed...we had a moment in time to get on top of it and create a fortress UK....
We have this virus...we have to just carry on now....at great cost to human lives and the economy....people are just not going to stand to trying to push down R0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_in_the_Seven_Years'_War#Annus_Mirabilis_(1759)TheScreamingEagles said:
Absolutely, the anniversaries of Waterloo, Agincourt, and Mers-el-Kébir should all be national holidays.kle4 said:We should celebrate the Napoleonic wars too. Back then we could manage to bribe half of europe, truly a sign of strength.
All London mainline stations should be renamed after such battles.0 -
There have been evil regimes...and there have been EVIL regimes.....and then there has been the Nazis, a regime that invented the gas chambers to mass murder children because it was thought too inhumane for Germans to shoot them (not for the children, but for the poor souls who had to shoot them)....TheScreamingEagles said:
You do know how many died under Stalin's watch?tyson said:
TSE....maybe a little remedial primary school course on Nazism might help you with your dilemma...TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
Equivocating Nazism to totalitarian communism is quite frankly the kind of kind of masturbatory bullshit that only people of a right wing kind of persuasion like to articulate.....
-1 -
And kyf_100's comment doesn't.IshmaelZ said:
The speech recognises thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.0 -
All very well and good, but I am struggling to see how your point relates to mine in any way at all.TheScreamingEagles said:
Thinking of bellends like Laurence Fox who have no grasp about our history.kyf_100 said:
I understand your point, though, on a technicality, wasn't Churchill's finest hour speech referring to the finest hour in our empire in a thousand years or words to that effect? It is not exactly a PC way of looking at things in 2020, but I think Churchill explicitly meant to praise to the forces of the British Empire in his speech.TheScreamingEagles said:
We really didn't stand alone.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
What is wrong with commemorating that? What on earth is wrong with Mr Meeks that he continually wants to put us "in our place", to borrow from the Nick Clegg quote in his post.
We should be celebrating this moment in our history as well as honouring the sacrifices made by those who fought for our freedoms.
Mr Meeks does them, and us, a great disservice. I'm proud of my country and our history. And I won't be made to feel shame for it.
All those Empire forces get airbrushed out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51233734
There's a real history of blackwashing.
Papers unearthed by the BBC reveal that British and American commanders ensured that the liberation of Paris on 25 August 1944 was seen as a "whites only" victory.
Many who fought Nazi Germany during World War II did so to defeat the vicious racism that left millions of Jews dead.
Yet the BBC's Document programme has seen evidence that black colonial soldiers - who made up around two-thirds of Free French forces - were deliberately removed from the unit that led the Allied advance into the French capital.
By the time France fell in June 1940, 17,000 of its black, mainly West African colonial troops, known as the Tirailleurs Senegalais, lay dead.
Many of them were simply shot where they stood soon after surrendering to German troops who often regarded them as sub-human savages.
Their chance for revenge came in August 1944 as Allied troops prepared to retake Paris. But despite their overwhelming numbers, they were not to get it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7984436.stm
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/liberation-of-paris-the-hidden-truth-434403.html
It seems like you're interested in proving a tangential point because you don't have an answer to mine.
There is a lot we shouldn't be proud of in our history. Including parts of WWII - Dresden to use an obvious example.
My point was that there is nothing wrong with celebrating our defiance of Nazism.
It is a cornerstone of our national psyche and is not something we should be made to feel shame for, as Mr Meeks apparently wants us to do.0 -
Yes it did, the French colonies in North Africa came under the control of Nazi Germany and Vichy France as did Vietnamwilliamglenn said:
The French Empire didn't fall to the Nazis just because they were occupying Paris.HYUFD said:
Had the Nazis won the Battle of Britain and successfully invaded the UK though the British Empire would have technically become the Nazi Germany Empire though dominions and colonies may have tried to resist thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.0 -
Have you any sources for that opinion or are you just asking us to accept the claims of FT journalists over EU and WHO backed researchers?MaxPB said:
That z-score measures variability in mortality. It means that a nation with a stable average death rate (like the UK) scores very poorly, and one with a highly variable one (France) scores well. It's not a good measure at all. The best analysis is by the FT who are compiling excess death data from national statistical releases. Even those depend on accurate data but it's still the best measure. The reason it looks bad here is because our data is very fast to release, other countries take weeks or months to do it while the ONS run just a couple of weeks behind.eadric said:
Stupid peopleWulfrun_Phil said:
You may have missed this from a couple of days back.eek said:
Why do you suspect the UK will not do particularly well. I suspect except for Germany we will have done reasonably when we start comparisons with the actual excess death figures of other EU countries (France, Spain, Italy).tlg86 said:
For me there is a lack of appreciation between the difference between statistics and management information. Right now, most of those worldometer figures are the latter. There will be plenty of time for a forensic statistical assessment of how different countries responded to this, and I suspect the UK will not do particularly well. Right now the focus should be on "what are the government doing to get us out of this mess?"Stocky said:
Sunil, tlg86 is referring to BBC`s misrepresentation of statistics.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Whose fault is it, then?tlg86 said:
Umm, not sure how you took that from my post.Sunil_Prasannan said:
It's the BBC's fault 30,000 people have died?tlg86 said:Week after week the BBC’s mantra has been “all deaths are tragedies” when talking about the virus. Yet tonight they couldn’t wait to pile into misleading statistical comparisons.
They are an utter disgrace.
"England's excess death rate among highest in Europe
An analysis of official figures from 24 European countries shows that England has had the highest excess death rate and it is not dropping"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/englands-excess-death-rate-among-highest-europe/
"Stephen Powis, National Medical Director of NHS England, told the daily Downing Street press conference that excess deaths is the “key measure” in assessing the impact of Covid-19 but argued it will be “some time” before that comparison can be done between countries. However, figures from EuroMOMO which monitors official data including from all parts of the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy and Switzerland, show that England has had the highest level of excess deaths for the past four weeks. The researchers, who are supported by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the World Health Organization (WHO), provide a “z-score” which takes into account factors such as population size and mortality patterns. The higher the z-score, the higher the number of excess deaths and the countries with the biggest peaks are Belgium, Spain, Italy and England. However, England is the only country which recorded a z-score over 40 and it has now been at this level for three weeks."
Fat people
BAME with vit D problems
Etc
England was a plague waiting to happen.
If you are right though and time lags have distorted the data, it's worth also remembering that the UK is lagging well behind the timeline to recovery of Italy, Spain and France such that the UK is now typically reporting daily deaths in official counts far in excess of theirs going forward. So there are going to be a lot more deaths down the road to add to our figures compared to theirs. A delay in reporting excess deaths elsewhere would serve to bring our timeline into line with theirs, so they the stats would still be comparable. If there's not a delay elsewhere then our excess death stats are comparatively even worse.0 -
It is not like a computer game where taking the capital changes the colours of the territories.HYUFD said:
Had the Nazis won the Battle of Britain and successfully invaded the UK though the British Empire would have technically become the Nazi Germany Empire though dominions and colonies may have tried to resist thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.0 -
And a tad inconsistent, considering that the British Empire declared war only to the country that occupied the western half of Poland, not to the country that occupied the eastern half of Poland at the same time, as agreed in the Molotow-Ribbentrop pact.Richard_Tyndall said:
There was the little matter of them being our allies and just having won the war for us.TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
It would have looked a tad ungrateful.1 -
Austria was a special case. It was under four power occupation which ended in 1955 (without checking) on the understanding it would not take sides in the Cold War.HYUFD said:
France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations and Austria were liberated from Fascism and did not become Communist eitherydoethur said:
They didn’t have them until 1949, by which time Eastern Europe had already been firmly annexed to the Soviet sphere - indeed, off-hand I think the DDR was the last country to have a Communist government of its own imposed, in 1949.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
But actually TSE was quoting Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, A victory for Democracy:
‘All we achieved after six years of war was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. At a cost of millions of lives and the ruination of this country.’
As for Italy and France, there is every chance they would have elected Communist governments in 1946-47 but for American intervention in their elections, backed up by the Catholic Church. Stalin didn’t object to that, possibly because he appears to have divided Europe in his own mind into spheres of influence, and decided France and Italy were American sphere.0 -
Anyone got any popcorn left?... Anyone?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
It's schools (and public transport)...once they open up we have to accept the virus living with us and killing us....Pulpstar said:
Plenty can be re-opened that won't push up R, fishing lakes spring to mind.. even horse racing without spectators. Manufacturing has always been allowed. Or are you talking about being thirsty for the pub ?tyson said:
You know when the idiots were twittering on about the behavioural science saying it was too early to lockdown- like early March......Pulpstar said:
No, you can keep R down at any point. Just because we fucked up before doesn't mean we need to keep fucking up now.tyson said:
That moment is gone....we had a window at the beginning of March.....Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Now we are fubared...every which way orifice looks particularly shitty....
Most deaths in Europe headlines should keep people indoors for a while longer also.
Now...it is just too late...that ship has sailed...we had a moment in time to get on top of it and create a fortress UK....
We have this virus...we have to just carry on now....at great cost to human lives and the economy....people are just not going to stand to trying to push down R
And although I was for locking down earlier and tighter....now I'm of the view that we have to open up and manage it.....and just face the crapness of it all really...
0 -
Johnson's Churchill delusions are preposterous. I probably wouldn't care about them too much, but I think they get in the way of dealing with the virus. You don't defeat the virus except by a vaccine, which is an international cooperation exercise anyway. Far less, wrestle it to the floor or engage in national battle. You live with the thing. You manage it. That requires a lot of discipline and good organisation.0
-
I think you will find French Indo-China was controlled by Japan for most of the Second World War.HYUFD said:
Yes it did, the French colonies in North Africa came under the control of Nazi Germany and Vichy France as did Vietnamwilliamglenn said:
The French Empire didn't fall to the Nazis just because they were occupying Paris.HYUFD said:
Had the Nazis won the Battle of Britain and successfully invaded the UK though the British Empire would have technically become the Nazi Germany Empire though dominions and colonies may have tried to resist thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
Edit - the point about Vichy France is that from 1940-43 it was not under the control of Nazi Germany, and it controlled the French colonies in Africa as well as the French Navy. Of course, in practice it was a convenient front for the Nazis, but by the time it was got rid of Germany and Italy had pretty well lost the war in Africa anyway.0 -
The ONS is definitely a world leader at compiling this type of informationWulfrun_Phil said:
Have you any sources for that opinion or are you just asking us to accept the claims of FT journalists over EU and WHO backed researchers?MaxPB said:
That z-score measures variability in mortality. It means that a nation with a stable average death rate (like the UK) scores very poorly, and one with a highly variable one (France) scores well. It's not a good measure at all. The best analysis is by the FT who are compiling excess death data from national statistical releases. Even those depend on accurate data but it's still the best measure. The reason it looks bad here is because our data is very fast to release, other countries take weeks or months to do it while the ONS run just a couple of weeks behind.eadric said:
Stupid peopleWulfrun_Phil said:
You may have missed this from a couple of days back.eek said:
Why do you suspect the UK will not do particularly well. I suspect except for Germany we will have done reasonably when we start comparisons with the actual excess death figures of other EU countries (France, Spain, Italy).tlg86 said:
For me there is a lack of appreciation between the difference between statistics and management information. Right now, most of those worldometer figures are the latter. There will be plenty of time for a forensic statistical assessment of how different countries responded to this, and I suspect the UK will not do particularly well. Right now the focus should be on "what are the government doing to get us out of this mess?"Stocky said:
Sunil, tlg86 is referring to BBC`s misrepresentation of statistics.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Whose fault is it, then?tlg86 said:
Umm, not sure how you took that from my post.Sunil_Prasannan said:
It's the BBC's fault 30,000 people have died?tlg86 said:Week after week the BBC’s mantra has been “all deaths are tragedies” when talking about the virus. Yet tonight they couldn’t wait to pile into misleading statistical comparisons.
They are an utter disgrace.
"England's excess death rate among highest in Europe
An analysis of official figures from 24 European countries shows that England has had the highest excess death rate and it is not dropping"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/03/englands-excess-death-rate-among-highest-europe/
"Stephen Powis, National Medical Director of NHS England, told the daily Downing Street press conference that excess deaths is the “key measure” in assessing the impact of Covid-19 but argued it will be “some time” before that comparison can be done between countries. However, figures from EuroMOMO which monitors official data including from all parts of the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy and Switzerland, show that England has had the highest level of excess deaths for the past four weeks. The researchers, who are supported by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the World Health Organization (WHO), provide a “z-score” which takes into account factors such as population size and mortality patterns. The higher the z-score, the higher the number of excess deaths and the countries with the biggest peaks are Belgium, Spain, Italy and England. However, England is the only country which recorded a z-score over 40 and it has now been at this level for three weeks."
Fat people
BAME with vit D problems
Etc
England was a plague waiting to happen.
If you are right though and time lags have distorted the data, it's worth also remembering that the UK is lagging well behind the timeline to recovery of Italy, Spain and France such that the UK is now typically reporting daily deaths in official counts far in excess of theirs going forward. So there are going to be a lot more deaths down the road to add to our figures compared to theirs. A delay in reporting excess deaths elsewhere would serve to bring our timeline into line with theirs, so they the stats would still be comparable. If there's not a delay elsewhere then our excess death stats are comparatively even worse.0 -
Yawn. Pathetic.williamglenn said:
And kyf_100's comment doesn't.IshmaelZ said:
The speech recognises thatwilliamglenn said:
It's a myth. We were an empire.kyf_100 said:When we stood alone in WWII, it was our finest hour as a nation.
It is part of our national character, etched on our psyche, one of defiance, resiliance - it is a history to be proud of.
If I'd said "the finest hour in our empire's history" you would have accused me of being a fascist, racist, imperialist for mere mention of the word "empire".
I used the words part of our national character because that is what it is.
I think your problem is that you think it's disgusting to be proud of your country so you want to use semantics to justify your hatred. Fair enough, but that's hardly my problem.0 -
Sounds sensible, I like the idea of a lower amount but allowing people to work part time. Sunak seems to be a pragmatic tory so wont last long. A big lay for the top job on that basis.HYUFD said:0 -
Did the division of Europe only happen in Stalin's own mind, or was that something the allied powers agreed at the Teheran conference?ydoethur said:
Austria was a special case. It was under four power occupation which ended in 1955 (without checking) on the understanding it would not take sides in the Cold War.HYUFD said:
France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations and Austria were liberated from Fascism and did not become Communist eitherydoethur said:
They didn’t have them until 1949, by which time Eastern Europe had already been firmly annexed to the Soviet sphere - indeed, off-hand I think the DDR was the last country to have a Communist government of its own imposed, in 1949.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
But actually TSE was quoting Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, A victory for Democracy:
‘All we achieved after six years of war was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. At a cost of millions of lives and the ruination of this country.’
As for Italy and France, there is every chance they would have elected Communist governments in 1946-47 but for American intervention in their elections, backed up by the Catholic Church. Stalin didn’t object to that, possibly because he appears to have divided Europe in his own mind into spheres of influence, and decided France and Italy were American sphere.0 -
There was no Holocaust in India. There may have been terrible things, but not on that scale. British rule wasn't very far worse or very far better than India was used to.TheScreamingEagles said:I mean people in India talk about the Holocaust they suffered during WWII thanks to the British when was the last time anyone in the media mentioned that?
Horror and gratitude is roughly the legacy. No Holocaust though.1 -
Stability and consistency of approach in these trying times, very comforting. We had a Tory act like a sh*t yesterday too (or revealed at least), so now we just need some kind of misleading inforgraphic from a LD.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The alarming thing about that report for tax payers isn;t how much Sunak is going to wind down but how littleHYUFD said:
The government is so desperate to prevent the repercussions of lockdown being felt by the population that they are prepared to keep the country's credit card running well into the future.
1 -
Good to see adulterers get their comeuppance.At least no bastards involved this time!FrancisUrquhart said:First, as in out the door like Neil Ferguson this evening...
0 -
It was agreed that the Soviets would have a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe because Stalin insisted on it and Roosevelt did not think it worth another war.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Did the division of Europe only happen in Stalin's own mind, or was that something the allied powers agreed at the Teheran conference?ydoethur said:
Austria was a special case. It was under four power occupation which ended in 1955 (without checking) on the understanding it would not take sides in the Cold War.HYUFD said:
France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations and Austria were liberated from Fascism and did not become Communist eitherydoethur said:
They didn’t have them until 1949, by which time Eastern Europe had already been firmly annexed to the Soviet sphere - indeed, off-hand I think the DDR was the last country to have a Communist government of its own imposed, in 1949.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
But actually TSE was quoting Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, A victory for Democracy:
‘All we achieved after six years of war was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. At a cost of millions of lives and the ruination of this country.’
As for Italy and France, there is every chance they would have elected Communist governments in 1946-47 but for American intervention in their elections, backed up by the Catholic Church. Stalin didn’t object to that, possibly because he appears to have divided Europe in his own mind into spheres of influence, and decided France and Italy were American sphere.
As far as I can remember there was nothing particular said about Western Europe other than Germany and Austria where three, later four power occupation was agreed.0 -
Stalin was the lesser of two evils, in the moment. But he, and the regime that came before and after him in its various guises, gets far far too much of a pass from far far too many people.tyson said:
There have been evil regimes...and there have been EVIL regimes.....and then there has been the Nazis, a regime that invented the gas chambers to mass murder children because it was thought too inhumane for Germans to shoot them (not for the children, but for the poor souls who had to shoot them)....TheScreamingEagles said:
You do know how many died under Stalin's watch?tyson said:
TSE....maybe a little remedial primary school course on Nazism might help you with your dilemma...TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
Equivocating Nazism to totalitarian communism is quite frankly the kind of kind of masturbatory bullshit that only people of a right wing kind of persuasion like to articulate.....1 -
Re the war, I think its fairly simple.
There is nothing wrong with remembering it or even celebrating winning it.
The way some people like to mix the celebration with their own personal politics and prejudices can be offensive.
Most people get the balance right even if they dont know the details. A minority are idiots and quite a few politicians and journalists take advantage.2 -
Is he married?justin124 said:
Good to see adulterers get their comeuppance.At least no bastards involved this time!FrancisUrquhart said:First, as in out the door like Neil Ferguson this evening...
0 -
Not sure - believe he has a child.RobD said:
Is he married?justin124 said:
Good to see adulterers get their comeuppance.At least no bastards involved this time!FrancisUrquhart said:First, as in out the door like Neil Ferguson this evening...
0 -
I expect KS wants this so he can face them down.RobD said:
Anyone got any popcorn left?... Anyone?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Indeed. This feeds into my perennial point about poor old Finland. Started the war fighting against German allies (Russia) and only because of German backstabbing in 1941 ended the war as a nominal Axis power and suffered accordingly in the peace agreements.matthiasfromhamburg said:
And a tad inconsistent, considering that the British Empire declared war only to the country that occupied the western half of Poland, not to the country that occupied the eastern half of Poland at the same time, as agreed in the Molotow-Ribbentrop pact.Richard_Tyndall said:
There was the little matter of them being our allies and just having won the war for us.TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
It would have looked a tad ungrateful.1 -
So it was agreed because of things that went on in the minds of Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin.ydoethur said:
It was agreed that the Soviets would have a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe because Stalin insisted on it and Roosevelt did not think it worth another war.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Did the division of Europe only happen in Stalin's own mind, or was that something the allied powers agreed at the Teheran conference?ydoethur said:
Austria was a special case. It was under four power occupation which ended in 1955 (without checking) on the understanding it would not take sides in the Cold War.HYUFD said:
France, West Germany, Italy and the Benelux nations and Austria were liberated from Fascism and did not become Communist eitherydoethur said:
They didn’t have them until 1949, by which time Eastern Europe had already been firmly annexed to the Soviet sphere - indeed, off-hand I think the DDR was the last country to have a Communist government of its own imposed, in 1949.HYUFD said:
By then the USSR had nuclear weapons so it was not quite the sameTheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
But actually TSE was quoting Sir Humphrey in Yes Prime Minister, A victory for Democracy:
‘All we achieved after six years of war was to leave Eastern Europe under a Communist dictatorship instead of a Fascist dictatorship. At a cost of millions of lives and the ruination of this country.’
As for Italy and France, there is every chance they would have elected Communist governments in 1946-47 but for American intervention in their elections, backed up by the Catholic Church. Stalin didn’t object to that, possibly because he appears to have divided Europe in his own mind into spheres of influence, and decided France and Italy were American sphere.
As far as I can remember there was nothing particular said about Western Europe other than Germany and Austria where three, later four power occupation was agreed.0 -
Bengal will be pleased to know their 2million+ dead due to British rule in '43 was not technically a Holocaust.Omnium said:
There was no Holocaust in India. There may have been terrible things, but not on that scale. British rule wasn't very far worse or very far better than India was used to.TheScreamingEagles said:I mean people in India talk about the Holocaust they suffered during WWII thanks to the British when was the last time anyone in the media mentioned that?
Horror and gratitude is roughly the legacy. No Holocaust though.3 -
There's just one tiny flaw in the government's policynoneoftheabove said:
Sounds sensible, I like the idea of a lower amount but allowing people to work part time. Sunak seems to be a pragmatic tory so wont last long. A big lay for the top job on that basis.HYUFD said:
They need a quick and powerful recovery from the private sector to prevent a total catastrophe
Trouble is, its a private sector they have smashed to pieces with their lockdown, frightened with their propaganda, and are saddling with 'new normal' nanny state rules on social distancing.
All of which makes that recovery a mirage.1 -
Indeed. No other nation has as much reason to hold its head up high and be proud of what it achieved.Richard_Tyndall said:
Indeed. This feeds into my perennial point about poor old Finland. Started the war fighting against German allies (Russia) and only because of German backstabbing in 1941 ended the war as a nominal Axis power and suffered accordingly in the peace agreements.matthiasfromhamburg said:
And a tad inconsistent, considering that the British Empire declared war only to the country that occupied the western half of Poland, not to the country that occupied the eastern half of Poland at the same time, as agreed in the Molotow-Ribbentrop pact.Richard_Tyndall said:
There was the little matter of them being our allies and just having won the war for us.TheScreamingEagles said:
I upset someone a few years ago on another forum when I said that for me at times WWII was pointless if we were prepared to go to war when a lot of Europe was occupied by fascism but prepared to do nothing when Eastern Europe was occupied after WWII by a similarly evil ideology.dr_spyn said:History is misused by politicians and journalists shock.
Should the Second World War be seen in Britain as a Pyrrhic victory, which ushered in austerity, greater state activity and a significant shift in the world's political and economic compass?
It would have looked a tad ungrateful.1 -
You git, you've made the point I was planning on making.Alistair said:
Bengal will be pleased to know their 2million+ dead due to British rule in '43 was not technically a Holocaust.Omnium said:
There was no Holocaust in India. There may have been terrible things, but not on that scale. British rule wasn't very far worse or very far better than India was used to.TheScreamingEagles said:I mean people in India talk about the Holocaust they suffered during WWII thanks to the British when was the last time anyone in the media mentioned that?
Horror and gratitude is roughly the legacy. No Holocaust though.
Although some it was over 3 million dead due to Bengal Famine.1 -
As you are well known as an expert on bastards, are there bastard purists out there who count bastards from the moment of bastard conception, or is the general view bastardry can be avoided so long as marriage is acquired prior to the birth?justin124 said:
Good to see adulterers get their comeuppance.At least no bastards involved this time!FrancisUrquhart said:First, as in out the door like Neil Ferguson this evening...
0 -
The catastrophe was created back in December. Everything since then is about mitigation. We are not aiming for a quick and powerful recovery, if we can get around 70-80% of the private sector operating by the end of the summer we will have done well.contrarian said:
There's just one tiny flaw in the government's policynoneoftheabove said:
Sounds sensible, I like the idea of a lower amount but allowing people to work part time. Sunak seems to be a pragmatic tory so wont last long. A big lay for the top job on that basis.HYUFD said:
They need a quick and powerful recovery from the private sector to prevent a total catastrophe
Trouble is, its a private sector they have smashed to pieces with their lockdown, frightened with their propaganda, and are saddling with 'new normal' nanny state rules on social distancing.
All of which makes that recovery a mirage.0 -
Julie Andrews was on BBC radio news today saying there was a Blitz spirit, so I guess it depends on who you ask.FF43 said:My mother lived through the Second World War. She says there was no Blitz spirit. People were depressed because of the death and because nothing worked and at times, when the bombs came, they were frightened,
0 -
How can he be an adulterer if he's not married?justin124 said:
Not sure - believe he has a child.RobD said:
Is he married?justin124 said:
Good to see adulterers get their comeuppance.At least no bastards involved this time!FrancisUrquhart said:First, as in out the door like Neil Ferguson this evening...
0 -
If you have 20% of people determined to go out and about to support the economy and 80% who want to stay in and stay safe you're going to end up with both a smashed economy and a sick population........tyson said:
It's schools (and public transport)...once they open up we have to accept the virus living with us and killing us....Pulpstar said:
Plenty can be re-opened that won't push up R, fishing lakes spring to mind.. even horse racing without spectators. Manufacturing has always been allowed. Or are you talking about being thirsty for the pub ?tyson said:
You know when the idiots were twittering on about the behavioural science saying it was too early to lockdown- like early March......Pulpstar said:
No, you can keep R down at any point. Just because we fucked up before doesn't mean we need to keep fucking up now.tyson said:
That moment is gone....we had a window at the beginning of March.....Pulpstar said:
Means we should redouble our efforts to crush R.TheScreamingEagles said:This explains a lot and is a little worrying.
Scientists say they have identified a mutation in coronavirus which they believe means a more contagious strain has been sweeping Europe and the US - and could even reinfect those who already have antibodies.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Now we are fubared...every which way orifice looks particularly shitty....
Most deaths in Europe headlines should keep people indoors for a while longer also.
Now...it is just too late...that ship has sailed...we had a moment in time to get on top of it and create a fortress UK....
We have this virus...we have to just carry on now....at great cost to human lives and the economy....people are just not going to stand to trying to push down R
And although I was for locking down earlier and tighter....now I'm of the view that we have to open up and manage it.....and just face the crapness of it all really...3 -
There are two schools of thought about the famine...Alistair said:
Bengal will be pleased to know their 2million+ dead due to British rule in '43 was not technically a Holocaust.Omnium said:
There was no Holocaust in India. There may have been terrible things, but not on that scale. British rule wasn't very far worse or very far better than India was used to.TheScreamingEagles said:I mean people in India talk about the Holocaust they suffered during WWII thanks to the British when was the last time anyone in the media mentioned that?
Horror and gratitude is roughly the legacy. No Holocaust though.0
