Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.
I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.
The Runciman article posted earlier was very good and describes the second referendum movement as always a delusion. Probably that’s right. But there were also serious issues with that first vote which has left a poison in the body politic.
I don't doubt that a lot of those campaigning for a second vote thought were doing it for honorable reasons (confirming the deal etc), but I suspect a fair few wanted one simply as a way to scupper the entire thing because they thought the first vote should simply be ignored.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.
I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.
The Runciman article posted earlier was very good and describes the second referendum movement as always a delusion. Probably that’s right. But there were also serious issues with that first vote which has left a poison in the body politic.
I don't doubt that a lot of those campaigning for a second vote thought were doing it for honorable reasons (confirming the deal etc), but I suspect a fair few wanted one simply as a way to scupper the entire thing because they thought the first vote should simply be ignored.
Scupper, sure. Ignore was a much more extremist position. Never saw much support in the polling for that.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.
I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.
The Runciman article posted earlier was very good and describes the second referendum movement as always a delusion. Probably that’s right. But there were also serious issues with that first vote which has left a poison in the body politic.
I don't doubt that a lot of those campaigning for a second vote thought were doing it for honorable reasons (confirming the deal etc), but I suspect a fair few wanted one simply as a way to scupper the entire thing because they thought the first vote should simply be ignored.
Scupper, sure. Ignore was a much more extremist position. Never saw much support in the polling for that.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.
Yet more utter BS from Mr Gardenwalker.
You won, by joining hands with xenophobia. Own it.
No matter how often you claim it, it still doesn't make it true. It just shows what a bad loser you are. Unlike most decent Remain voters you and the rest of the unreconciled fanatics deserve all the self inflicted angst you have coming to you.
Well, it’s your country. You can do what you want with it. That you have decided - unwittingly to be sure - to consign it to material and moral decline is your lookout.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
Thanks for the article, Cyclefree. Interestingly, when you have raised Cumbria in the past I have often vaguely wonderrd which bit of Cumbria you call home. I wouldn't have guessed Silecroft! Must be quite a cintrast to Hampstead.
It’s actually a village a few miles away - between Millom and Broughton-in-Furness. But the in-laws had a caravan at Silecroft where the children played on the beach and roundabouts. Reminds me in part of the bits I know well in Ireland. The photo is of the sand dunes at Haverigg.
It is a contrast but I like being near the sea and having mountains nearby. And it’s not far from Coniston Water and Ulverston.
I spent most of my early life divided between Naples and rural county Limerick so feel pretty much at home in either type of location.
But increasingly I need the great outdoors rather than being hemmed into rooms with small windows. I’ve had a lifetime of that. For two years I and a colleague had to share a room which literally stared out onto a brick wall and which got about 15 minutes of natural light per day. By the end of that case we both had Vitamin D deficiency. So give me sky and space and horizons and room to breathe, in every sense.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.
Yet more utter BS from Mr Gardenwalker.
You won, by joining hands with xenophobia. Own it.
No matter how often you claim it, it still doesn't make it true. It just shows what a bad loser you are. Unlike most decent Remain voters you and the rest of the unreconciled fanatics deserve all the self inflicted angst you have coming to you.
Well, it’s your country. You can do what you want with it. That you have decided - unwittingly to be sure - to consign it to material and moral decline is your lookout.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
See, you could have just said that instead.
I could have but decided not to ! Lol . By the way as Leavers go I’ve always found you to be a good ambassador for them .
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.
I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.
The Runciman article posted earlier was very good and describes the second referendum movement as always a delusion. Probably that’s right. But there were also serious issues with that first vote which has left a poison in the body politic.
I don't doubt that a lot of those campaigning for a second vote thought were doing it for honorable reasons (confirming the deal etc), but I suspect a fair few wanted one simply as a way to scupper the entire thing because they thought the first vote should simply be ignored.
Scupper, sure. Ignore was a much more extremist position. Never saw much support in the polling for that.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
See, you could have just said that instead.
I could have but decided not to ! Lol . By the way as Leavers go I’ve always found you to be a good ambassador for them .
Too kind - i just find that kind of language unnecessary. I'm like a younger Big_G.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.
I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.
The Runciman article posted earlier was very good and describes the second referendum movement as always a delusion. Probably that’s right. But there were also serious issues with that first vote which has left a poison in the body politic.
I don't doubt that a lot of those campaigning for a second vote thought were doing it for honorable reasons (confirming the deal etc), but I suspect a fair few wanted one simply as a way to scupper the entire thing because they thought the first vote should simply be ignored.
Scupper, sure. Ignore was a much more extremist position. Never saw much support in the polling for that.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
See, you could have just said that instead.
I could have but decided not to ! Lol . By the way as Leavers go I’ve always found you to be a good ambassador for them .
Too kind - i just find that kind of language unnecessary. I'm like a younger Big_G.
Okay fair enough . I’ll refrain from that sort of diatribe in future.
You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!
If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?
The dot-dashed line at 4.5 Gyr rises from ~ 5780 K to ~ 5792K and then falls again to ~ 5780 K by 8 Gyr.
This is Ultra-Mega-Super-Hyper-Pedantry ..... but there are no error bars on the modelling due to e.g., uncertainties in the solar composition which causes changes in the opacity, or uncertainties in the rates of the thermonuclear reactions with temperature.
So, put the error bars on your graph and then we will talk 😀
I think modeling of the Sun's interior is sufficiently advanced that we can take these plots as reliable. After all, it's mainly hydrogen and helium.
The rise is a 0.2 per cent effect.
We don't know the chemistry & physics of the interior of the Sun to that accuracy !!
You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!
If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?
The dot-dashed line at 4.5 Gyr rises from ~ 5780 K to ~ 5792K and then falls again to ~ 5780 K by 8 Gyr.
This is Ultra-Mega-Super-Hyper-Pedantry ..... but there are no error bars on the modelling due to e.g., uncertainties in the solar composition which causes changes in the opacity, or uncertainties in the rates of the thermonuclear reactions with temperature.
So, put the error bars on your graph and then we will talk 😀
I think modeling of the Sun's interior is sufficiently advanced that we can take these plots as reliable. After all, it's mainly hydrogen and helium.
The rise is a 0.2 per cent effect.
We don't know the chemistry & physics of the interior of the Sun to that accuracy !!
Perhaps not in an absolute sense, but we know the direction of travel. I haven't seen a model predicting the sun's temperature would decrease with time, for example.
Thanks for the calmly reflective piece, Cyclefree - reflects the current mood for many. I hope you're starting to feel better.
Johnson so far has followed the pattern of when he was Mayor - big on inspiring speeches and grand ideas, decisions largely avoided. It was easier as Mayor since in truth that role is indeed mostly declamatory scene-setting. Not so easy as PM, but I think he'll have a honeymoon at least until the Opposition parties get round to choosing leaders.
As for our sense of national identity, most people outside the chattering classes don't really give it much thought, and certainly don't demand that the Government provides a precise meaning. It's an atmosphere rather than a concrete thing, which suits Johnson's style rather well.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
That was a potential argument at the time but it has proven to be wrong by events. Brexiters against May's deal both genuinely wanted Brexit and achieved a harder one via their tactics. What they said would be the case and what turned out to be the case was the same.
Historians seeking to understand Brexit can do worse than read the full PB archive from, say, Cameron’s abortive “renegotiation”.
You're right, but I can't see it happening. Historians aren't known for their work ethic.
I thought the PB archives had been lost in the mists of time?
I'm sure we all hope so. (I think there is likely to be a record kept by others - governments etc). OGH's obviously lost his own name down the back of a sofa a few times, so this is a different thing.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.
Anyone advocating a second vote was doing exactly that.
Laughable. You’ve won already. You should exercise yourself on figuring out the direction of those sunny uplands you’ve promised yourself.
Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.
That's awfully selective.
Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.
That was a potential argument at the time but it has proven to be wrong by events. Brexiters against May's deal both genuinely wanted Brexit and achieved a harder one via their tactics. What they said would be the case and what turned out to be the case was the same.
What's funny about that though is initially the ERG voted *against* parliament having a vote on the final deal. If they had won, May's deal would have gone through without a vote!
Excellent article, from God's own country. One of the excellences of Dominic Sandbrook is that he tells a story and controls a narrative. His audience will be huge compared with many other historians of a more analytical bent. This, I think, is a clue to the questions implicit in the article.
Among the many reasons Leave won is that the campaign told and related to a story with a past present and future in it. You may think it all false, but stories count. The Remain campaign suffered from the overwhelming difficulty that in nearly 50 years no story with a long past, present and future has developed and there was no idealistic story, as opposed to abstract principle, to relate and be presented to our attention.
Thatcher (until she started believing her own rhetoric) and Blair (ditto) successfully dealt in narrative and story with a quality which overwhelmed the alternatives. Boris has done exactly the same.
Watch the space. Attlee dispatched Churchill - master of narrative - with a better story for his time, Building A Land Fit For Heroes, Cradle to Grave, and all that. Boris can be replaced by a dull leader (Major, Brown) if and when he fails, or like Churchill can be replaced by a more powerful narrative master. At the moment the latter is not in sight, and in particular at best the Labour alternatives are pedestrian journeymen.
The other one with a decent story having a past, present and future is based in Scotland and will have a tricky few months ahead.
Just had a look at the forthcoming fixtures for Liverpool and Manchester City and I think Liverpool will win the title officially by the end of March.
If Man City win their game in hand tomorrow and then the two clubs get the same number of points between now and the end of March then I believe Liverpool will need to avoid defeat away to Manchester City on 4 April to officially lift the title.
However look at the forthcoming fixtures.
Between now and the end of March: Liverpool go Away to: Norwich City, Watford, Everton Liverpool at Home host: West Ham, Bournemouth, Crystal Palace
Man City go Away to: Tottenham, Leicester, Manchester United, Chelsea Man City at Home host: West Ham, Burnley
Looking at those fixtures City seem more likely to drop points before the end of March than Liverpool do.
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
The media are right f##king me off again about this quarantine thing. CH4 News Cathy Newman interviewing the Irish guy this evening.
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
Thatcher (until she started believing her own rhetoric) and Blair (ditto) successfully dealt in narrative and story with a quality which overwhelmed the alternatives. Boris has done exactly the same.
Watch the space. Attlee dispatched Churchill - master of narrative - with a better story for his time, Building A Land Fit For Heroes, Cradle to Grave, and all that. Boris can be replaced by a dull leader (Major, Brown) if and when he fails, or like Churchill can be replaced by a more powerful narrative master. At the moment the latter is not in sight, and in particular at best the Labour alternatives are pedestrian journeymen.
The other one with a decent story having a past, present and future is based in Scotland and will have a tricky few months ahead.
Interesting and fair reflections. I agree that Starmer appears to be a journeyman rather than the author of a compelling new narrative, though these things can appear in time. I'm still making up my mind about Nandy, whose campaign seems simultaneously quite a fresh wind and rather insubstantial. Long-Bailey seems to be pressing a series of buttons (reselection, nationalisation...) to try to open up the race, but I don't see a clear theme except vague continuity leftism, which (as we've just seen) needs more focus to be appealing.
The media are right f##king me off again about this quarantine thing. CH4 News Cathy Newman interviewing the Irish guy this evening.
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Yes but....
Because they want to set the narrative, not report on it?
For Labour I think the first reshuffle after the leadership election will be telling.
If Starmer wins then will the likes of Burgon and Long Bailey be kept around? Or will he shuffle substantially back to a pre-Corbyn style Shadow Cabinet.
If Labour wants to be electable then not only should Long Bailey and Burgon not be Leader or Deputy Leader, they shouldn't be anywhere near the Shadow Cabinet either.
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
Here's the thing, though.
As far as product standards, particularly in things like autos, but also in things like electronics, we basically will. So there isn't going to be separate vehicle emissions regime for the UK.
We can and will have different standards in things like health and safety, and labour force regulation. But in product standards... I doubt it.
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
Not likely no, they're massive net recipients of transfers.
We'll see how massive those net receipts are once the UK's contributions cease. Who is going to fill that UK-shaped hole? Germany? France? Or will they all get scaled back?
Thatcher (until she started believing her own rhetoric) and Blair (ditto) successfully dealt in narrative and story with a quality which overwhelmed the alternatives. Boris has done exactly the same.
Watch the space. Attlee dispatched Churchill - master of narrative - with a better story for his time, Building A Land Fit For Heroes, Cradle to Grave, and all that. Boris can be replaced by a dull leader (Major, Brown) if and when he fails, or like Churchill can be replaced by a more powerful narrative master. At the moment the latter is not in sight, and in particular at best the Labour alternatives are pedestrian journeymen.
The other one with a decent story having a past, present and future is based in Scotland and will have a tricky few months ahead.
Interesting and fair reflections. I agree that Starmer appears to be a journeyman rather than the author of a compelling new narrative, though these things can appear in time. I'm still making up my mind about Nandy, whose campaign seems simultaneously quite a fresh wind and rather insubstantial. Long-Bailey seems to be pressing a series of buttons (reselection, nationalisation...) to try to open up the race, but I don't see a clear theme except vague continuity leftism, which (as we've just seen) needs more focus to be appealing.
Agree by and large. You never quite know where the next Special One is coming from - think Mrs T and Princess Diana, both of whose genius arose in non obvious ways. We can hope anyway. Countries, regions, nations, need stories, and good ones (Hitler and Stalin had stories!) in order to find confidence and purpose, and common identity.
Agree about Starmer and Nandy. She is the Liz Kendall candidate, very good but somehow slightly too close to an old style washing powder advert. I am sorry Jess Phillips is out of it; she is different.
RLB sets a puzzle of Dickensian proportions. On the face of it she is just a standard issue left make weight of no interest at all intellectually or in terms of leadership and heft - almost as bad as Corbyn. A candidate of despair. But I sense a deeper individual hidden behind all that blank and space occupying talk. Or am I just being too hopeful of the mechanical and robotic left?
Isn't Poland considered one of the potential crumbling bricks in the EU wall by the 'bring the whole temple down' Brexiteers? (don't @ me, I know that's not all or even most leavers).
Not likely no, they're massive net recipients of transfers.
The assumption has been that Poland might be thrown out the EU for misbehaving, never that it would leave of its own accord.
As long as Hungary remains guilty of the same abuses as Poland, the chances of either being forced out are approximately zero (since it would require a unanimous vote).
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
Here's the thing, though.
As far as product standards, particularly in things like autos, but also in things like electronics, we basically will. So there isn't going to be separate vehicle emissions regime for the UK.
We can and will have different standards in things like health and safety, and labour force regulation. But in product standards... I doubt it.
Yes, it would be completely stupid, but that's what the article talks about. Labour and environmental standards, plus services recognition rather than this idiotic idea of equivalence. On the latter it's better for us not to bother with equivalence if mutual recognition isn't on the table, it's a massive and unnecessary trap.
Thanks for the calmly reflective piece, Cyclefree - reflects the current mood for many. I hope you're starting to feel better.
Johnson so far has followed the pattern of when he was Mayor - big on inspiring speeches and grand ideas, decisions largely avoided. It was easier as Mayor since in truth that role is indeed mostly declamatory scene-setting. Not so easy as PM, but I think he'll have a honeymoon at least until the Opposition parties get round to choosing leaders.
As for our sense of national identity, most people outside the chattering classes don't really give it much thought, and certainly don't demand that the Government provides a precise meaning. It's an atmosphere rather than a concrete thing, which suits Johnson's style rather well.
Decisions largely avoided?
Since the election what, seven weeks ago, we have had the decision on Huawei. And the saving of Flybe. And the decision has been taken by Cabinet on HS2 and will shortly be announced.
And no doubt a mass of Coronavirus related decisions on contingency planning that we may never hear.
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
That article sounds interesting. Is there a non paywall version?
I had to look this up the other day when I saw some scary stuff. I concluded it was “one world Gvt” nutters.
In January 2020, John Mappin (also affiliated to Turning Point UK), began to fly a Q flag at the Camelot Castle hotel near to Tintagel Castle in England.[133][134] Advocacy group Hope not Hate said, "Mappin is an eccentric figure, considered outlandish even by his fringe rightwing peers. This childish ploy is a weak attempt at getting attention for himself and his marginal Turning Point UK organisation, and is better off being ignored."[135]
The media are right f##king me off again about this quarantine thing. CH4 News Cathy Newman interviewing the Irish guy this evening.
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Yes but....
Well that's what you get for watching the drivel that is Channel 4 News.
RLB sets a puzzle of Dickensian proportions. On the face of it she is just a standard issue left make weight of no interest at all intellectually or in terms of leadership and heft - almost as bad as Corbyn. A candidate of despair. But I sense a deeper individual hidden behind all that blank and space occupying talk. Or am I just being too hopeful of the mechanical and robotic left?
I like her better than I did at first and think she's intelligent and not robotic, but she needs to define herself quickly in terms that go beyond the obvious left agenda. She absolutely doesn't need to sell herself as the most left-wing candidate, that box is ticked.
O/T: no longer our business, but we'll be tackling similar challenges:
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
That article sounds interesting. Is there a non paywall version?
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
Rough translation: there are going to be taxis on imports (aka tariffs), restrictions on imports (aka quotas), delay in imports (aka customs borders), and greater expenses imposed on imports (aka greater inventory).
Thatcher (until she started believing her own rhetoric) and Blair (ditto) successfully dealt in narrative and story with a quality which overwhelmed the alternatives. Boris has done exactly the same.
Watch the space. Attlee dispatched Churchill - master of narrative - with a better story for his time, Building A Land Fit For Heroes, Cradle to Grave, and all that. Boris can be replaced by a dull leader (Major, Brown) if and when he fails, or like Churchill can be replaced by a more powerful narrative master. At the moment the latter is not in sight, and in particular at best the Labour alternatives are pedestrian journeymen.
The other one with a decent story having a past, present and future is based in Scotland and will have a tricky few months ahead.
Interesting and fair reflections. I agree that Starmer appears to be a journeyman rather than the author of a compelling new narrative, though these things can appear in time. I'm still making up my mind about Nandy, whose campaign seems simultaneously quite a fresh wind and rather insubstantial. Long-Bailey seems to be pressing a series of buttons (reselection, nationalisation...) to try to open up the race, but I don't see a clear theme except vague continuity leftism, which (as we've just seen) needs more focus to be appealing.
Agree by and large. You never quite know where the next Special One is coming from - think Mrs T and Princess Diana, both of whose genius arose in non obvious ways. We can hope anyway. Countries, regions, nations, need stories, and good ones (Hitler and Stalin had stories!) in order to find confidence and purpose, and common identity.
Agree about Starmer and Nandy. She is the Liz Kendall candidate, very good but somehow slightly too close to an old style washing powder advert. I am sorry Jess Phillips is out of it; she is different.
RLB sets a puzzle of Dickensian proportions. On the face of it she is just a standard issue left make weight of no interest at all intellectually or in terms of leadership and heft - almost as bad as Corbyn. A candidate of despair. But I sense a deeper individual hidden behind all that blank and space occupying talk. Or am I just being too hopeful of the mechanical and robotic left?
Sometimes blank and space occupying talk is all that is there and there are no hidden depths. No great reveal of the inner Aristotle. Sometimes superficial speak your weight lack of depth is it. Disappoint looms,
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
That article sounds interesting. Is there a non paywall version?
I think you get 2 a month with the free account.
Bloody hell I've just looked up the cost of the subscription, apparently it's £26 per month now! I'm not sure I'd renew at that price. I think I did £99 for the year last time.
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
If you don’t play by the rules you shouldn’t get the funding . If they don’t like the responsibilities and obligations that come with EU membership then they should clear off .
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
If you don’t play by the rules you shouldn’t get the funding . If they don’t like the responsibilities and obligations that come with EU membership then they should clear off .
Sorry, I was referring to the support for the EU in that poll. I suspect it would be different if they were net contributors!
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
If you don’t play by the rules you shouldn’t get the funding . If they don’t like the responsibilities and obligations that come with EU membership then they should clear off .
Sorry, I was referring to the support for the EU in that poll. I suspect it would be different if they were net contributors!
The EU has rules on that. They're not enforcing them and it's not our issue anymore but I'm glad you can see one of the flaws of their system. Perhaps easier to see from afar.
Others not following the rules while we did was a long running grudge sceptics had while we were members. A club where some follow the rules and others don't with impunity is problematic.
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
If you don’t play by the rules you shouldn’t get the funding . If they don’t like the responsibilities and obligations that come with EU membership then they should clear off .
Sorry, I was referring to the support for the EU in that poll. I suspect it would be different if they were net contributors!
Funny how they don't furiously tweet French polling on the issue...
"In the late 1970s, a small group of art students at Leeds University created a pivotal hotbed of radical post-punk. Gang of Four’s jerky-punky-funky music would influence bands as diverse as the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Massive Attack."
The media are right f##king me off again about this quarantine thing. CH4 News Cathy Newman interviewing the Irish guy this evening.
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Yes but....
Well that's what you get for watching the drivel that is Channel 4 News.
Cathy Newman is hilariously over rated. Her attempts to take down Jordan Peterson are a joy to behold.
How long will businesses have to update their systems and get ready for changes . Surely they need time to prepare. Javid saying they’ve had 3 years is nonsense because they’ve not known what the exact trade relationship would be .
I’m wondering whether we might see a fudge . When is an extra transition period renamed something else !
The problem is any agreement if it’s classed as a mixed one needs ratification by every single EU country aswell as some regional parliaments aswell.
If it’s an agreement that falls within just EU legal competency then it doesn’t but that then narrows the scope .
Surely there’s a creative way to give businesses a smooth transition and the extra transition has some bells and whistles on it to stop some major Tory implosion and would the public really care in any place , an extra few months . There’s no election to worry about and I doubt the public would punish the Tories in 2024 for that .
Thanks for the calmly reflective piece, Cyclefree - reflects the current mood for many. I hope you're starting to feel better.
Johnson so far has followed the pattern of when he was Mayor - big on inspiring speeches and grand ideas, decisions largely avoided. It was easier as Mayor since in truth that role is indeed mostly declamatory scene-setting. Not so easy as PM, but I think he'll have a honeymoon at least until the Opposition parties get round to choosing leaders.
As for our sense of national identity, most people outside the chattering classes don't really give it much thought, and certainly don't demand that the Government provides a precise meaning. It's an atmosphere rather than a concrete thing, which suits Johnson's style rather well.
Decisions largely avoided?
Since the election what, seven weeks ago, we have had the decision on Huawei. And the saving of Flybe. And the decision has been taken by Cabinet on HS2 and will shortly be announced.
And no doubt a mass of Coronavirus related decisions on contingency planning that we may never hear.
Decisions largely avoided?
And the small matter of getting Brexit done.. pretty good so far.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
Some tantrum buddy. Maybe there is an ointment you can apply ?
In the meantime - is Sir Keir really a sub 1.4 shot ?
How long will businesses have to update their systems and get ready for changes . Surely they need time to prepare. Javid saying they’ve had 3 years is nonsense because they’ve not known what the exact trade relationship would be .
I’m wondering whether we might see a fudge . When is an extra transition period renamed something else !
The problem is any agreement if it’s classed as a mixed one needs ratification by every single EU country aswell as some regional parliaments aswell.
If it’s an agreement that falls within just EU legal competency then it doesn’t but that then narrows the scope .
Surely there’s a creative way to give businesses a smooth transition and the extra transition has some bells and whistles on it to stop some major Tory implosion and would the public really care in any place , an extra few months . There’s no election to worry about and I doubt the public would punish the Tories in 2024 for that .
I think there's a sizeable risk, the UK government decides the EU isn't offering enough to take on the obligations it also demanding. Time though is on the EU's side. Unless the UK is prepared to not to have an agreement with the EU on anything, ever, it will sooner or later have to meet EU demands. There will be a lot of interests pushing for this in the UK.
And if you going to accept those demands eventually anyway, you might as well take them sooner.
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
Some tantrum buddy. Maybe there is an ointment you can apply ?
In the meantime - is Sir Keir really a sub 1.4 shot ?
Call that a tantrum ! I can do better if you like ! Regarding KS , he’s a shoe in .
Unless he does something really stupid . I say this because I know a few Labour supporting friends who are to the left of me , have signed up as members and are voting for KS .
And if he’s getting the more hard left and more moderate then I can’t see him losing . The attitude amongst them is one of realism . They realize that RLB would mean a complete implosion in the party and the Tories celebrating .
KS might be dull to some but he will at least put up a decent opposition . Importantly he might attract more older voters . Labour need to stop chasing younger voters , there’s simply not enough of them to overcome the huge lead the Tories have in the over 50’s .
The media are right f##king me off again about this quarantine thing. CH4 News Cathy Newman interviewing the Irish guy this evening.
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Yes but....
Well that's what you get for watching the drivel that is Channel 4 News.
Cathy Newman is hilariously over rated. Her attempts to take down Jordan Peterson are a joy to behold.
So what you are saying is....that Cathy is actually a top notch presenter...right?
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
So it's all about the cash for you guys? Glad that we cleared that up.
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
So it's all about the cash for you guys? Glad that we cleared that up.
It's a nice sweetener. You think that receiving 10bn euros a year makes the EU less popular?
How long will businesses have to update their systems and get ready for changes . Surely they need time to prepare. Javid saying they’ve had 3 years is nonsense because they’ve not known what the exact trade relationship would be .
I’m wondering whether we might see a fudge . When is an extra transition period renamed something else !
The problem is any agreement if it’s classed as a mixed one needs ratification by every single EU country aswell as some regional parliaments aswell.
If it’s an agreement that falls within just EU legal competency then it doesn’t but that then narrows the scope .
Surely there’s a creative way to give businesses a smooth transition and the extra transition has some bells and whistles on it to stop some major Tory implosion and would the public really care in any place , an extra few months . There’s no election to worry about and I doubt the public would punish the Tories in 2024 for that .
Yet more delays!
The symbolism of the UK officially leaving the EU can’t be underestimated . I expect the public are going to tune out of the intricacies surrounding the trade talks and if Johnson says we need a few months to implement the new trade deal I can’t see much of a problem . He has the right wing press onside . How else could he have gotten away with his deal considering it puts a border in the Irish Sea .
The media are right f##king me off again about this quarantine thing. CH4 News Cathy Newman interviewing the Irish guy this evening.
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Yes but....
Well that's what you get for watching the drivel that is Channel 4 News.
Cathy Newman is hilariously over rated. Her attempts to take down Jordan Peterson are a joy to behold.
So what you are saying is....that Cathy is actually a top notch presenter...right?
How long will businesses have to update their systems and get ready for changes . Surely they need time to prepare. Javid saying they’ve had 3 years is nonsense because they’ve not known what the exact trade relationship would be .
I’m wondering whether we might see a fudge . When is an extra transition period renamed something else !
The problem is any agreement if it’s classed as a mixed one needs ratification by every single EU country aswell as some regional parliaments aswell.
If it’s an agreement that falls within just EU legal competency then it doesn’t but that then narrows the scope .
Surely there’s a creative way to give businesses a smooth transition and the extra transition has some bells and whistles on it to stop some major Tory implosion and would the public really care in any place , an extra few months . There’s no election to worry about and I doubt the public would punish the Tories in 2024 for that .
Yet more delays!
The symbolism of the UK officially leaving the EU can’t be underestimated . I expect the public are going to tune out of the intricacies surrounding the trade talks and if Johnson says we need a few months to implement the new trade deal I can’t see much of a problem . He has the right wing press onside . How else could he have gotten away with his deal considering it puts a border in the Irish Sea .
It doesn't put a border in the Irish sea. The border between the UK customs union and the EU one remains in Ireland. This is why Northern Ireland will benefit from tariff cuts in UK trade deals.
"In the late 1970s, a small group of art students at Leeds University created a pivotal hotbed of radical post-punk. Gang of Four’s jerky-punky-funky music would influence bands as diverse as the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Massive Attack."
I went to the Carnival Against The Nazis in Potternewton Park in 1981 referenced in that article. Misty In Roots had about 17 band members on the stage. The Au Pairs were there. Aswad too. The headliners were The Specials, the week Ghost Town was number one and Britain was rioting and burning. Went there with my mate Martin, in his green MG Midget. He was worried it would get torched.
I think there's a sizeable risk, the UK government decides the EU isn't offering enough to take on the obligations it also demanding. Time though is on the EU's side. Unless the UK is prepared to not to have an agreement with the EU on anything, ever, it will sooner or later have to meet EU demands. There will be a lot of interests pushing for this in the UK.
And if you going to accept those demands eventually anyway, you might as well take them sooner.
I think there's a sizeable risk, the UK government decides the EU isn't offering enough to take on the obligations it also demanding. Time though is on the EU's side. Unless the UK is prepared to not to have an agreement with the EU on anything, ever, it will sooner or later have to meet EU demands. There will be a lot of interests pushing for this in the UK.
And if you going to accept those demands eventually anyway, you might as well take them sooner.
We will end up in a mess if the commentariat in the UK accepts the exact linking of benefits and obligations the EU proposes. The problem for the whole negotiation so far is that the media only discussed the internal politics of the UK side, accepting the EU position as written in stone.
For example, it seems perfectly reasonable that mutual recognition of professional qualifications can be done without free movement of labour. The EU will insist they are linked, but if that is accepted as a necessary linkage, we will not get either. Equally, while a degree of level playing field provisions are usually required in FTAs, what the EU is demanding is unprecedented. If Remainer activists and reporters accept the EU's framing of LPF hoping the UK is bounced into all of it, we will end up with a much harder Brexit.
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
So it's all about the cash for you guys? Glad that we cleared that up.
It's a nice sweetener. You think that receiving 10bn euros a year makes the EU less popular?
It helps to know that the taking back control and regaining sovereignty was just bullshit icing on the £350m a week for the NHS. Knowing how attached your political opponents are to actual principles is always useful
The same old tosh doing the rounds about evil Remainers allegedly thwarting the will of the people ! Zzzzzzz
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
Was that last sentence really necessary?
Yes ! Bozo is a fraud , unprincipled and the worst type of politician. Other Leave politicians don’t annoy me as much because they’ve had a view and stuck to it . I disagree with them but they at least have had some principles .
Some tantrum buddy. Maybe there is an ointment you can apply ?
In the meantime - is Sir Keir really a sub 1.4 shot ?
Better, imho. He has a huge CLP lead, and CLP votes are all party members voting. In both of Corbyn's wins the CLPs were fairly accurate for the wider membership, even getting the 1-2-3-4 order perfect in 2015 (not bad on the gaps between each candidate too). Starmer has big leads in YouGov polls even when Phillips was on 10%+ of the vote which is pretty likely to go mostly to him now.
Personally I think his price is only as long as it is thanks to the sparse polling and people not trusting the CLPs as an indicator. I suspect another poll will come out around the time the final ballot is decided (so roughly a fortnight from now) and show his lead similar or larger than before and his price will collapse. I also suspect it will show Nandy still well back in 3rd.
I’m a bit dubious of that Polish poll even though as a Remainer I should welcome it . That’s an astonishing result . I’d expect a big majority for Remain but 94%.
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
I don't think it's surprising. They are huge net beneficiaries - why would you turn down 10 billion a year?
So it's all about the cash for you guys? Glad that we cleared that up.
It's a nice sweetener. You think that receiving 10bn euros a year makes the EU less popular?
It helps to know that the taking back control and regaining sovereignty was just bullshit icing on the £350m a week for the NHS. Knowing how attached your political opponents are to actual principles is always useful
I think there's a sizeable risk, the UK government decides the EU isn't offering enough to take on the obligations it also demanding. Time though is on the EU's side. Unless the UK is prepared to not to have an agreement with the EU on anything, ever, it will sooner or later have to meet EU demands. There will be a lot of interests pushing for this in the UK.
And if you going to accept those demands eventually anyway, you might as well take them sooner.
We will end up in a mess if the commentariat in the UK accepts the exact linking of benefits and obligations the EU proposes. The problem for the whole negotiation so far is that the media only discussed the internal politics of the UK side, accepting the EU position as written in stone.
For example, it seems perfectly reasonable that mutual recognition of professional qualifications can be done without free movement of labour. The EU will insist they are linked, but if that is accepted as a necessary linkage, we will not get either. Equally, while a degree of level playing field provisions are usually required in FTAs, what the EU is demanding is unprecedented. If Remainer activists and reporters accept the EU's framing of LPF hoping the UK is bounced into all of it, we will end up with a much harder Brexit.
Indeed, we literally went through this process with the May government and then we got Boris brexit which makes no provision for customs or ongoing trade after 2020. Remainers like FF43 are deluding themselves that the UK will blindly accept whatever the EU is selling. We didn't accept the May prison, and it's highly likely that Boris will go for deal de minimis than accept a changeable level playing field on the whim of the commission or the trade deal being arbitrated by the ECJ.
Comments
The main point of contention was to stop a no deal which any sane individual would think was a good idea .
And the court cases in the SC were to make sure a future PM couldn’t act like a dictator but the right wing press just peddled lies that it was a plot to steal Brexit .
For 3 and a half years any debate or questioning of what type of Brexit MPs should push for has been met by cries of traitor any questioning of Brexit seemed like heresy .
Bozo calling for unity after all the division he’s sown makes me want to vomit . Some Leave politicians have been a lot more conciliatory in their tone and at least were consistent in wanting to leave the EU before it became fashionable or in the blond oafs case his ticket to no 10!
Bozo can go fuck himself and stick his unity talk where the sun doesn’t shine .
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/is-your-stance-on-brexit-to-pass-the-currently-agreed-brexit-deal-delay-brexit-until-we-can-negotiate-a-new-deal-which-can-then-be-put-to-another-referendum-or-cancel-brexit-and-decide-to-remain-in/
It is a contrast but I like being near the sea and having mountains nearby. And it’s not far from Coniston Water and Ulverston.
I spent most of my early life divided between Naples and rural county Limerick so feel pretty much at home in either type of location.
But increasingly I need the great outdoors rather than being hemmed into rooms with small windows. I’ve had a lifetime of that. For two years I and a colleague had to share a room which literally stared out onto a brick wall and which got about 15 minutes of natural light per day. By the end of that case we both had Vitamin D deficiency. So give me sky and space and horizons and room to breathe, in every sense.
Don’t like those questions though, wouldn’t personally put too much faith in them.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/to-what-extent-do-you-support-or-oppose-cancelling-britains-departure-from-the-eu-without-a-referendum/
We don't know the chemistry & physics of the interior of the Sun to that accuracy !!
Like a Mass Observation...of political nerds.
Johnson so far has followed the pattern of when he was Mayor - big on inspiring speeches and grand ideas, decisions largely avoided. It was easier as Mayor since in truth that role is indeed mostly declamatory scene-setting. Not so easy as PM, but I think he'll have a honeymoon at least until the Opposition parties get round to choosing leaders.
As for our sense of national identity, most people outside the chattering classes don't really give it much thought, and certainly don't demand that the Government provides a precise meaning. It's an atmosphere rather than a concrete thing, which suits Johnson's style rather well.
If I want to feel a sense of crushing disappointment I load up a certain day in 2017.
Among the many reasons Leave won is that the campaign told and related to a story with a past present and future in it. You may think it all false, but stories count. The Remain campaign suffered from the overwhelming difficulty that in nearly 50 years no story with a long past, present and future has developed and there was no idealistic story, as opposed to abstract principle, to relate and be presented to our attention.
Thatcher (until she started believing her own rhetoric) and Blair (ditto) successfully dealt in narrative and story with a quality which overwhelmed the alternatives. Boris has done exactly the same.
Watch the space. Attlee dispatched Churchill - master of narrative - with a better story for his time, Building A Land Fit For Heroes, Cradle to Grave, and all that. Boris can be replaced by a dull leader (Major, Brown) if and when he fails, or like Churchill can be replaced by a more powerful narrative master. At the moment the latter is not in sight, and in particular at best the Labour alternatives are pedestrian journeymen.
The other one with a decent story having a past, present and future is based in Scotland and will have a tricky few months ahead.
If Man City win their game in hand tomorrow and then the two clubs get the same number of points between now and the end of March then I believe Liverpool will need to avoid defeat away to Manchester City on 4 April to officially lift the title.
However look at the forthcoming fixtures.
Between now and the end of March:
Liverpool go Away to: Norwich City, Watford, Everton
Liverpool at Home host: West Ham, Bournemouth, Crystal Palace
Man City go Away to: Tottenham, Leicester, Manchester United, Chelsea
Man City at Home host: West Ham, Burnley
Looking at those fixtures City seem more likely to drop points before the end of March than Liverpool do.
https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/1223682935716532230?s=20
There have been reports its like Colditz - No, its student accommodation and better than my flat in China.
But what if you wanted to leave - Well you can't, we are in quarantine.
But yes if you wanted to leave though, what if you tried to escape - Well you can't, we signed a waiver to say we wouldn't. And why would we, we don't want to spread the disease.
But yes, what if you had a mental breakdown and tried to escape - We aren't in Colditz, we have our rooms, our flats, games / tv room and a courtyard outside to walk around in.
Yes but....
If Starmer wins then will the likes of Burgon and Long Bailey be kept around? Or will he shuffle substantially back to a pre-Corbyn style Shadow Cabinet.
If Labour wants to be electable then not only should Long Bailey and Burgon not be Leader or Deputy Leader, they shouldn't be anywhere near the Shadow Cabinet either.
I mean the Queens (sic) English!
Neighbours' Horror As Racist 'Happy Brexit Day' Posters Put Up In Norwich Tower Block.
The anonymous note has been reported to the council as a hate crime.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/norwich-tower-block-norfolk-brexit-racism_uk_5e3573bcc5b611ac94d541f5
On a somewhat serious point for a moment. There are many people here on both sides who fought hard. I know TSE and Casino_Royale, and many others, have given up their time and have canvassed and campaigned, and that effort should be recognised.
By 6am tomorrow somebody will have lost. I won't patronise you: I hope REMAIN will win. But regardless of who wins, I would like to thank all those here on both sides, REMAIN and LEAVE, who took the time and effort to voice their thoughts and experiences. It would not have been the same without you, and even if you lose, I hope you all go on to greater success in life.
viewcode 9:15pm, June 23 2016
Pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject. With the government no longer pursuing the idea of "frictionless" trade with the EU, the EU will need to realise that we won't be bound by their regulations. The relationship will only work with mutual recognition and upholding of defined minimum standards on both sides.
I think the EU are going to find Boris and Dom much tougher this time around, especially now that parliament basically has no power to force the executive to do anything anymore, the remainer useful idiots they used last time are either gone or have no voice.
In the end, I think the government will be much closer to being ready for WTO rules by January of next year than now, there are going to be serious resources put into the planning of tariffs and quotas, and help for businesses who will need to adapt to holding more inventory and a customs border that will need to handle 80% more volume.
https://twitter.com/KeejayOV2/status/1223367857695875075
As far as product standards, particularly in things like autos, but also in things like electronics, we basically will. So there isn't going to be separate vehicle emissions regime for the UK.
We can and will have different standards in things like health and safety, and labour force regulation. But in product standards... I doubt it.
Agree about Starmer and Nandy. She is the Liz Kendall candidate, very good but somehow slightly too close to an old style washing powder advert. I am sorry Jess Phillips is out of it; she is different.
RLB sets a puzzle of Dickensian proportions. On the face of it she is just a standard issue left make weight of no interest at all intellectually or in terms of leadership and heft - almost as bad as Corbyn. A candidate of despair. But I sense a deeper individual hidden behind all that blank and space occupying talk. Or am I just being too hopeful of the mechanical and robotic left?
As long as Hungary remains guilty of the same abuses as Poland, the chances of either being forced out are approximately zero (since it would require a unanimous vote).
Since the election what, seven weeks ago, we have had the decision on Huawei. And the saving of Flybe. And the decision has been taken by Cabinet on HS2 and will shortly be announced.
And no doubt a mass of Coronavirus related decisions on contingency planning that we may never hear.
Decisions largely avoided?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon
O/T: no longer our business, but we'll be tackling similar challenges:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/leak-eu-charts-6g-future-in-ambitious-industrial-plan/?utm_source=EURACTIV&utm_campaign=579feda1c4-RSS_EMAIL_EN_WeeklyRoundUp&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c59e2fd7a9-579feda1c4-114478043
I do have criticisms of the EU in the inability to sanction countries who sign up for membership then fail to adhere to their agreements . Orban is happy to have had the benefits by way of EU structural funds , an improving economy and then goes round trashing the EU and moving Hungary backwards democratically . And then when the EU criticize his actions he then shouts interference.
Although the UK has sadly left and was a bit awkward at times during its membership it did generally play by the rules .
Another hole in the Festive Fifty.
Others not following the rules while we did was a long running grudge sceptics had while we were members. A club where some follow the rules and others don't with impunity is problematic.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/apr/19/pubs-disco-and-fighting-nazis-how-leeds-nurtured-british-post-punk
How long will businesses have to update their systems and get ready for changes . Surely they need time to prepare. Javid saying they’ve had 3 years is nonsense because they’ve not known what the exact trade relationship would be .
I’m wondering whether we might see a fudge . When is an extra transition period renamed something else !
The problem is any agreement if it’s classed as a mixed one needs ratification by every single EU country aswell as some regional parliaments aswell.
If it’s an agreement that falls within just EU legal competency then it doesn’t but that then narrows the scope .
Surely there’s a creative way to give businesses a smooth transition and the extra transition has some bells and whistles on it to stop some major Tory implosion and would the public really care in any place , an extra few months . There’s no election to worry about and I doubt the public would punish the Tories in 2024 for that .
In the meantime - is Sir Keir really a sub 1.4 shot ?
Today she was nominated by Stoke Central, Lancaster and Fleetwood, Windsor , Mid Worcestershire and Wirral West.
She has 32 CLPs. The threshold is 33
Ian Murray picked the 3 Aberdeen CLPs, Sunderland Central, Caithness and Renfrewshire North/West. He is at 23
Rosena Allin-Khan picked Buckingham, Brecon and Radnorshire and Daventry to reach 11 CLPs.
https://twitter.com/CLPNominations/status/1223712955449122816?s=20
Keir Starmer got 22 CLPs today
Long-Bailey was nominated by 7 new CLPs
Nandy got 1
and Thornberry is still at 9
https://twitter.com/CLPNominations/status/1223709807149973506?s=20
And if you going to accept those demands eventually anyway, you might as well take them sooner.
Unless he does something really stupid . I say this because I know a few Labour supporting friends who are to the left of me , have signed up as members and are voting for KS .
And if he’s getting the more hard left and more moderate then I can’t see him losing . The attitude amongst them is one of realism . They realize that RLB would mean a complete implosion in the party and the Tories celebrating .
KS might be dull to some but he will at least put up a decent opposition . Importantly he might attract more older voters . Labour need to stop chasing younger voters , there’s simply not enough of them to overcome the huge lead the Tories have in the over 50’s .
Memories.
For example, it seems perfectly reasonable that mutual recognition of professional qualifications can be done without free movement of labour. The EU will insist they are linked, but if that is accepted as a necessary linkage, we will not get either. Equally, while a degree of level playing field provisions are usually required in FTAs, what the EU is demanding is unprecedented. If Remainer activists and reporters accept the EU's framing of LPF hoping the UK is bounced into all of it, we will end up with a much harder Brexit.
Bloke behind presenter shaved head pint of lager and a t shirt with slogan 2 world wars and 1 Referendum.
If you wanted to prove an offensive stereotype ffs
Personally I think his price is only as long as it is thanks to the sparse polling and people not trusting the CLPs as an indicator. I suspect another poll will come out around the time the final ballot is decided (so roughly a fortnight from now) and show his lead similar or larger than before and his price will collapse. I also suspect it will show Nandy still well back in 3rd.