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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Reflections from Cyclefree: Here We Go (Again)

There were not many dogs, hardy or otherwise, out this morning on the North West coast, understandably so in view of the overcast weather. Still, on a clear day from the top of Black Combe , a couple of miles away, it is possible to see Northern Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. Beyond lies Ireland and the great big wide world beyond. All those opportunities! Just behind the spot where this photo was taken is Silecroft station, one of the few stations where you have to hail the two-carriage train to make it stop. The train travels from Barrow-in Furness up the coast to Carlisle via Sellafield, Whitehaven and Maryport, a town originally settled by the Romans and later turned from fishing village into a coal port.  

Read the full story here

AlastairMeeks

To quote from something else inspired by a walk on the beach that seems apt:

“Now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar”

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43588/dover-beach

IanB2

Second?

kinabalu

Well, since 11 pm last night the answer to "who are we?" is perfectly clear.

We are (once more) a proud and independent Island Nation in charge of our own Fish.

tlg86

Was down the pub last night - and despite being in a 56:44 remain constituency - I suspect most of the clientele were leave voters. 23:00 passed with barely a murmur. Whilst leaving the EU is a big deal emotionally for some people - and I think it’s hurt remainers more than it’s cheered leavers - for most people it won’t make a difference to them. They’ll carry on being who’ve they’ve always been.

isam

Here we go (again)

On our own!

kinabalu

AlastairMeeks said:

To quote from something else inspired by a walk on the beach that seems apt:

“Now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar”

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43588/dover-beach

A great poem - and here is its starker/darker extrapolation.

https://lsoares.blogs.sapo.pt/587024.html

Jonathan

Poetry has no place in Brexit Britain. This is more like it.


https://twitter.com/AdamHickin/status/1223399270591713281?s=09

rottenborough

This. 1000x times this.

https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1223608035186266112

matt

I’m half way through the referred Sandbrook book so am loath to rush to early judgement. His earlier books (Seasons in the Sun etc) paint a vivid and accessible history of the period.

I agree with TLG86. There are a number of empty vessels making a lot of noise but most people haven’t and won’t change. For better or worse.

rottenborough

Jonathan said:

Poetry has no place in Brexit Britain. This is more like it.


https://twitter.com/AdamHickin/status/1223399270591713281?s=09

Looks like one of those guys who thinks he fought in the War but actually was just raised watching John Mills fight the War.

matt

Some top quality sneering early doors btw.

Cookie

Thanks for the article, Cyclefree.
Interestingly, when you have raised Cumbria in the past I have often vaguely wonderrd which bit of Cumbria you call home. I wouldn't have guessed Silecroft! Must be quite a cintrast to Hampstead.

kinabalu

isam said:

Here we go (again)

On our own!

It does appear that we've made up our mind.

RobD

Jonathan said:

Poetry has no place in Brexit Britain. This is more like it.


https://twitter.com/AdamHickin/status/1223399270591713281?s=09

I thought we had two referenda on the topic?

Stark_Dawning

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

HYUFD

Interesting article but Thatcher took the Tories into power in 1979, Boris has become PM and been re elected after 9 years of Tory rule and we are now in the 10th year.

2020 is the equivalent of 1989 therefore not 1979 and if the parallel continues the next general election will be the equivalent of 1992 not 1983 and a close run thing, however if Labour elect Starmer they will be trying to pitch for the centre earlier than they did at that time when they ran Kinnock again, even if Starmer is no Blair

DavidL

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

kinabalu

Can I respectfully request that people stop copying the picture of that vulgar looking reactionary type in their posts. The look & feel of the thread is going to be seriously lowered otherwise. It will become hard for me to stay.

Theuniondivvie

tlg86 said:

Was down the pub last night - and despite being in a 56:44 remain constituency - I suspect most of the clientele were leave voters. 23:00 passed with barely a murmur. Whilst leaving the EU is a big deal emotionally for some people - and I think it’s hurt remainers more than it’s cheered leavers - for most people it won’t make a difference to them. They’ll carry on being who’ve they’ve always been.

I won't link to the various vox pops of celebrating Leavers from yesterday (weirdly the media appear to be a lot tougher in their questioning now the deed is done) but there seemed to be common themes of uncertainty about what actual benefits would come to them and a yearning for the way things used to be, possibly for a time before some of them were born. I think many of them were distinctly unhappy with carrying on being who’ve they’ve been (recently anyway) and I can't but think they'll be disappointed that like all of us they're stuck with themselves. How big a proportion of Leavers let alone the general population they are I don't know.

Theuniondivvie

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night

Harsh on Byro...er...Sea...er...tbc.
I don't think he/they were on the eccies.

DavidL

Interesting perspective: https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/europe-can-t-afford-to-alienate-the-uk-after-brexit-a-6884d32f-d36d-40fa-bf1c-d74a7eb632f2

HYUFD

So even the DUP can go into Government with Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland but apparently not the leaders of Fine Gael or Fianna Fail in the Republic of Ireland.

Do as I say not as I do hey Leo?

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1223526810773852161?s=20

Fysics_Teacher

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

Theuniondivvie

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

Top PB pedanting!

Stark_Dawning

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

AlastairMeeks

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

Leavers are doing absolutely nothing to persuade Remainers to take a fresh look at Brexit.

To date, any Remainer who has sought to engage with the challenges of Brexit has been vilified and labelled a traitor. Your own post shows that sense of blinkered incomprehension of the perspectives of others.

The extreme version of Brexit that Leavers have retrospectively decided is the only true Brexit will cause much unnecessary damage. At some point they will start asking themselves what they themselves can do to start repairing the damage they caused instead of expecting others to suck it up. But that day remains a long way off and the country is continuing its spiral of decline.

alterego

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

Then you're myopic

DavidL

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

But they weren't. If they had been they would have voted for May's deal as they should have. Instead we had the second referendum nonsense or, in some cases, just an outright refusal to support any kind of Brexit.

The price that they have paid for that stupidity (apart from the careers of the Tiggers etc) is Boris's deal. May's was better in my view and certainly more conciliatory. I only hope that we end up with something pretty close to it by the end of this year.

Mysticrose

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

As a Remainer it pains me to say you are talking tosh.

That Parliament tried every single ruse going to obstruct Brexit. Everyone knows it.

I marked the event in A&E. Only one of the waiting 30 people paid any attention to the event showing on the screen.

We just need to get on with it now. It's done. Finished. Over.

DavidL

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

Leavers are doing absolutely nothing to persuade Remainers to take a fresh look at Brexit.

To date, any Remainer who has sought to engage with the challenges of Brexit has been vilified and labelled a traitor. Your own post shows that sense of blinkered incomprehension of the perspectives of others.

The extreme version of Brexit that Leavers have retrospectively decided is the only true Brexit will cause much unnecessary damage. At some point they will start asking themselves what they themselves can do to start repairing the damage they caused instead of expecting others to suck it up. But that day remains a long way off and the country is continuing its spiral of decline.

I agree May's deal was better. The damage is not necessarily irreparable.

Stark_Dawning

alterego said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

Then you're myopic

Please give me an example of parliament enacting any legislation that reversed the effects of referendum vote.

alterego

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

Leavers are doing absolutely nothing to persuade Remainers to take a fresh look at Brexit.

To date, any Remainer who has sought to engage with the challenges of Brexit has been vilified and labelled a traitor. Your own post shows that sense of blinkered incomprehension of the perspectives of others.

The extreme version of Brexit that Leavers have retrospectively decided is the only true Brexit will cause much unnecessary damage. At some point they will start asking themselves what they themselves can do to start repairing the damage they caused instead of expecting others to suck it up. But that day remains a long way off and the country is continuing its spiral of decline.

Those that voted against May's deal got this one instead. Credit where credit is due.

justin124

The Iowa caucuses appear to be a bit later this year. Do they not normally take place in January?

Stark_Dawning

DavidL said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

But they weren't. If they had been they would have voted for May's deal as they should have. Instead we had the second referendum nonsense or, in some cases, just an outright refusal to support any kind of Brexit.

The price that they have paid for that stupidity (apart from the careers of the Tiggers etc) is Boris's deal. May's was better in my view and certainly more conciliatory. I only hope that we end up with something pretty close to it by the end of this year.

Labour scented blood. They thought they could topple Theresa, seize power from the wreckage, negotiate their own WA and then take all the glory. Yes, it backfired spectacularly. So Jezza was stupid. What's new?

Stark_Dawning

Mysticrose said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

As a Remainer it pains me to say you are talking tosh.

That Parliament tried every single ruse going to obstruct Brexit. Everyone knows it.

I marked the event in A&E. Only one of the waiting 30 people paid any attention to the event showing on the screen.

We just need to get on with it now. It's done. Finished. Over.

Had it been so minded, Parliament could easily have passed a law forcing Boris to revoke Article 50, as it did with forcing him to get an extension. It didn't. The story endeth here.

justin124

CLP nominations so far today - Starmer 18 RLB 5 Nandy 1

Quincel

justin124 said:

The Iowa caucuses appear to be a bit later this year. Do they not normally take place in January?

2016: Feb 1st
2012: Jan 3rd
2008: Jan 3rd
2004: Jan 19th
2000: Jan 24th

If memory serves Iowa and other early states kept shuffling earlier and earlier for a long time until, after Jan 3rd twice in a row, it was agreed the early states (IA/NH) had to be allowed to be first but in return they had to wait a bit longer. There was a concern the primaries would trickle into the year before the election.

MarqueeMark

Liverpool could lose all their league matches until 11th April - and still be top of the league.....

YBarddCwsc

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

The temperature of a main sequence star is steady. As it turns off the main sequence and ascends the giant branch, the star cools.

Here is a cute website, "Star in a Box".

https://starinabox.lco.global

You can take it out of its box, set the dashboard to temperature and see what it happens.

Fysics_Teacher

Theuniondivvie said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

Top PB pedanting!

It’s the teacher in me.
😀

IanB2

Theuniondivvie said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night

Harsh on Byro...er...Sea...er...tbc.
I don't think he/they were on the eccies.

It was amusing how Byronic had to return as SeanT last night as, having declared his new persona a Remain voter, he was only able to gloat about Brexit and report his real feelings at attending the goings on in Parliament Square by logging back into his original account.

RobD

YBarddCwsc said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

The temperature of a main sequence star is steady. As it turns off the main sequence and ascends the giant branch, the star cools.

Here is a cute website, "Star in a Box".

https://starinabox.lco.global

You can take it out of its box, set the dashboard to temperature and see what it happens.

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

IanB2

RobD said:

Jonathan said:

Poetry has no place in Brexit Britain. This is more like it.


https://twitter.com/AdamHickin/status/1223399270591713281?s=09

I thought we had two referenda on the topic?

I don’t recall any referendum in the USA?

kinabalu

Stark_Dawning said:

Labour scented blood. They thought they could topple Theresa, seize power from the wreckage, negotiate their own WA and then take all the glory. Yes, it backfired spectacularly. So Jezza was stupid. What's new?

Turned out atrociously for Labour.

Could have had - (i) Brexit (ii) Backstop (iii) Minority Tory Govt (iv) Weak PM May.

Got - (i) Brexit (ii) No Backstop (iii) Landslide Tory Govt (iv) Strong PM Johnson.

But not because Corbyn was stupid on this issue. Quite the opposite. His instincts were sound. He wanted to let Brexit happen. To go for the 1st scenario above. But he was unable to resist the push for Ref2/Remain in his own party (MPs and membership) and from the rabidly anti-Corbynite "PV" mob. The Blairs. The Campbells. The Leslies. The Chukas. All of those people. Then the Benn Act, which only gave Johnson an alibi and the GE framing he needed. And the LDs duly giving him the GE timing he needed too. Perfect storm. They all got it far more wrong than Corbyn did. They are to blame not him. In fact they have a hell of a cheek seeking to lay any of this at his door. His "crime" was to fail to win an election that was unwinnable.

YBarddCwsc

RobD said:

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!

If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?

This is pb.com HyperPedantry though.

HYUFD

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1223609115135696899?s=20

YBarddCwsc

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1223609115135696899?s=20

Physics, not Farage, please.

Dura_Ace

Malmesbury said:

There was semi-serious interest in France building one or more copies of the Uk carriers. Their own design has essentially failed.

You can't say the CdG has failed because its prime objective is the same as the HMS QE class - the bolstering of national vanity for a post-imperial power. In that sense it is a success just by existing.

The main technical issue with her (apart from the fact there is only one of them) is that it's slow compared to a Nimitz (27kts vs 31kts) which payload limits the strike package. This stems from using a nuclear power plant based on a submarine design rather than designing a carrier specific variant.

Richard_Tyndall

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

Have to disagree with your first paragraph David. All the Leavers I know were delighted and actively celebrated the event with at least a toast to the occasion. There were also plenty of fireworks in my area and reports rom many other areas of the same.

Indeed it seems to me that the attempts by the Remoaners top thwart Brexit for the last 3 1/2 years made last night all the sweeter and all the more worthy of celebration.

RobD

.

YBarddCwsc said:

RobD said:

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!

If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?

This is pb.com HyperPedantry though.

I did say ever so slightly. Here's a better plot:

https://d2vlcm61l7u1fs.cloudfront.net/media/389/389509f3-f2ea-47ac-850c-54423ae2b1aa/phpBmKfNZ.png

viewcode

RobD said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

The temperature of a main sequence star is steady. As it turns off the main sequence and ascends the giant branch, the star cools.

Here is a cute website, "Star in a Box".

https://starinabox.lco.global

You can take it out of its box, set the dashboard to temperature and see what it happens.

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

If that graph is correct then:

i) the temperature t - the green line - is stable (or going up very, very slightly)
ii) the radius r - the blue line - is going up noticeably
iii) the surface area s (4pi*r^2) is going up quickly - since surface area = 4pi*r^2
iv) the temperature per square inch of sun (t/s) is going down
v) since the heat the earth receives is proportional to t/s, the heat the earth receives is going down.

Richard_Tyndall

Mysticrose said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

As a Remainer it pains me to say you are talking tosh.

That Parliament tried every single ruse going to obstruct Brexit. Everyone knows it.

I marked the event in A&E. Only one of the waiting 30 people paid any attention to the event showing on the screen.

We just need to get on with it now. It's done. Finished. Over.

Hope you are okay Mystic

Edit - referring to the A&E comment

RobD

viewcode said:

RobD said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

The temperature of a main sequence star is steady. As it turns off the main sequence and ascends the giant branch, the star cools.

Here is a cute website, "Star in a Box".

https://starinabox.lco.global

You can take it out of its box, set the dashboard to temperature and see what it happens.

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

If that graph is correct then:

i) the temperature t - the green line - is stable (or going up very, very slightly)
ii) the radius r - the blue line - is going up noticeably
iii) the surface area s (4pi*r^2) is going up quickly - since surface area = 4pi*r^2
iv) the temperature per square inch of sun (t/s) is going down
v) since the heat the earth receives is proportional to t/s, the heat the earth receives is going down.

Luminosity is going up faster though, so the net energy received by the Earth will be going up.

Richard_Tyndall

Stark_Dawning said:

Mysticrose said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

As a Remainer it pains me to say you are talking tosh.

That Parliament tried every single ruse going to obstruct Brexit. Everyone knows it.

I marked the event in A&E. Only one of the waiting 30 people paid any attention to the event showing on the screen.

We just need to get on with it now. It's done. Finished. Over.

Had it been so minded, Parliament could easily have passed a law forcing Boris to revoke Article 50, as it did with forcing him to get an extension. It didn't. The story endeth here.

They were too cowardly to do that. Which is why they tried to frustrate and prevent it in other ways. The trick was always to stop Brexit without having been seen to stop Brexit.

Thankfully they were just too stupid to achieve it.

viewcode

RobD said:

viewcode said:

RobD said:

YBarddCwsc said:

Fysics_Teacher said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Above them, expensive and lovely as a rich child's toy,
The aeroplanes fly in the new European air,
On the edge of that air that makes England of little importance,
And the tides warn bronzing bathers of a cooling star
With half its history done.

I wonder how they're looking at us in Europe today. Probably like that bloke who at school/university was such a star but whom the years have not been kind to. And everyone emits a sad but relieved sigh when he when finally leaves the party at midnight extremely worse for wear.

Just a small point, but the star is not cooling but warming.

The temperature of a main sequence star is steady. As it turns off the main sequence and ascends the giant branch, the star cools.

Here is a cute website, "Star in a Box".

https://starinabox.lco.global

You can take it out of its box, set the dashboard to temperature and see what it happens.

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

If that graph is correct then:

i) the temperature t - the green line - is stable (or going up very, very slightly)
ii) the radius r - the blue line - is going up noticeably
iii) the surface area s (4pi*r^2) is going up quickly - since surface area = 4pi*r^2
iv) the temperature per square inch of sun (t/s) is going down
v) since the heat the earth receives is proportional to t/s, the heat the earth receives is going down.

Luminosity is going up faster though, so the net energy received by the Earth will be going up.

Ah, thank you

YBarddCwsc

RobD said:

.

YBarddCwsc said:

RobD said:

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!

If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?

This is pb.com HyperPedantry though.

I did say ever so slightly. Here's a better plot:

https://d2vlcm61l7u1fs.cloudfront.net/media/389/389509f3-f2ea-47ac-850c-54423ae2b1aa/phpBmKfNZ.png

The dot-dashed line at 4.5 Gyr rises from ~ 5780 K to ~ 5792K and then falls again to ~ 5780 K by 8 Gyr.

This is Ultra-Mega-Super-Hyper-Pedantry ..... but there are no error bars on the modelling due to e.g., uncertainties in the solar composition which causes changes in the opacity, or uncertainties in the rates of the thermonuclear reactions with temperature.

So, put the error bars on your graph and then we will talk 😀

Stark_Dawning

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Mysticrose said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

As a Remainer it pains me to say you are talking tosh.

That Parliament tried every single ruse going to obstruct Brexit. Everyone knows it.

I marked the event in A&E. Only one of the waiting 30 people paid any attention to the event showing on the screen.

We just need to get on with it now. It's done. Finished. Over.

Had it been so minded, Parliament could easily have passed a law forcing Boris to revoke Article 50, as it did with forcing him to get an extension. It didn't. The story endeth here.

They were too cowardly to do that. Which is why they tried to frustrate and prevent it in other ways. The trick was always to stop Brexit without having been seen to stop Brexit.

Thankfully they were just too stupid to achieve it.

What did they have to be cowardly about? The whole point is it's supposed to be abundantly clear that parliament tried to thwart Brexit at every turn. If that's the case they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by simply reversing the decision through legislation.

YBarddCwsc

YBarddCwsc said:

The dot-dashed line at 4.5 Gyr rises from ~ 5780 K to ~ 5792K and then falls again to ~ 5780 K by 8 Gyr.

This is Ultra-Mega-Super-Hyper-Pedantry ..... but there are no error bars on the modelling due to e.g., uncertainties in the solar composition which causes changes in the opacity, or uncertainties in the rates of the thermonuclear reactions with temperature.

So, put the error bars on your graph and then we will talk 😀

Also, what book is that page 350 of?

TheGreenMachine

MarqueeMark said:

Liverpool could lose all their league matches until 11th April - and still be top of the league.....

They could but then again Prince Charles could be the next James Bond.

FF43

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

In a situation where the decision is controversial, the risks are essentially all downside and where the pathway to success is a narrow one, you might expect those in charge to limit the damage and mitigate the risks. Yet the Johnson regime shows absolutely no interest in doing that. And certainly not in its attitude towards Scotiand.

The prospects for a passably successful Brexit are poor, I would say.

Richard_Tyndall

FF43 said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

In a situation where the decision is controversial, the risks are essentially all downside and where the pathway to success is a narrow one, you might expect those in charge to limit the damage and mitigate the risks. Yet the Johnson regime shows absolutely no interest in doing that. And certainly not in its attitude towards Scotiand.

The prospects for a passably successful Brexit are poor, I would say.

Given that has been your position since before the referendum I am not sure anyone should be surprised you still maintain it.

Richard_Tyndall

Stark_Dawning said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Mysticrose said:

Stark_Dawning said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

'The Remain parliament tried to thwart the Will of The People' will sadly but probably go down as one of those enduring politic myths along with Foot's donkey jacket and Maggie closing all the coal mines. All I could see were MPs trying to secure a Brexit that was optimal for the country rather than merely optimal for the furtherance of Boris Johnson's career.

As a Remainer it pains me to say you are talking tosh.

That Parliament tried every single ruse going to obstruct Brexit. Everyone knows it.

I marked the event in A&E. Only one of the waiting 30 people paid any attention to the event showing on the screen.

We just need to get on with it now. It's done. Finished. Over.

Had it been so minded, Parliament could easily have passed a law forcing Boris to revoke Article 50, as it did with forcing him to get an extension. It didn't. The story endeth here.

They were too cowardly to do that. Which is why they tried to frustrate and prevent it in other ways. The trick was always to stop Brexit without having been seen to stop Brexit.

Thankfully they were just too stupid to achieve it.

What did they have to be cowardly about? The whole point is it's supposed to be abundantly clear that parliament tried to thwart Brexit at every turn. If that's the case they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by simply reversing the decision through legislation.

They were frightened of losing their seats. Their fear turned out to be well justified thankfully.

Sunil_Prasannan

YBarddCwsc said:

RobD said:

.

YBarddCwsc said:

RobD said:

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!

If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?

This is pb.com HyperPedantry though.

I did say ever so slightly. Here's a better plot:

https://d2vlcm61l7u1fs.cloudfront.net/media/389/389509f3-f2ea-47ac-850c-54423ae2b1aa/phpBmKfNZ.png

The dot-dashed line at 4.5 Gyr rises from ~ 5780 K to ~ 5792K and then falls again to ~ 5780 K by 8 Gyr.

This is Ultra-Mega-Super-Hyper-Pedantry ..... but there are no error bars on the modelling due to e.g., uncertainties in the solar composition which causes changes in the opacity, or uncertainties in the rates of the thermonuclear reactions with temperature.

So, put the error bars on your graph and then we will talk 😀

Red giants are cooler than main sequence yellow stars.

Stark_Dawning

----

CatMan

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/01/unionists-northern-ireland-brexit-backfired-uk-government-nationalists

"A century after the foundation of the Northern Irish state, unionism is demoralised. Brexit has backfired on them, and the English nationalists who drove it have not hidden their contempt for the most British of Britain’s subjects in this last fragment of the empire, now that they no longer need them."

Stark_Dawning

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

They were too cowardly to do that. Which is why they tried to frustrate and prevent it in other ways. The trick was always to stop Brexit without having been seen to stop Brexit.

Thankfully they were just too stupid to achieve it.

What did they have to be cowardly about? The whole point is it's supposed to be abundantly clear that parliament tried to thwart Brexit at every turn. If that's the case they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by simply reversing the decision through legislation.

They were frightened of losing their seats. Their fear turned out to be well justified thankfully.

As I said, nothing to lose and everything to gain then by simply legislating to cancel Brexit. That no such legislation was even mooted, let alone passed, rather belies that particular Leave claim to persecution. It matters because there were calls for riots on the streets to counter a mere conspiracy theory.

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1223529587625381888

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/NicolaRBartlett/status/1223573839034167299

The smears being when the press quote Jeremy presumably.

CatMan

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

FF43

Richard_Tyndall said:

FF43 said:

DavidL said:

Apart from those "ecstatic" prats in Parliament Square last night I would agree that the departure has had more impact on the remainers than the leavers. For me it was pretty much a non event and most leavers that I know felt the same.

What has happened is that the democratic decision of the British people has finally been honoured. It has not been easy or pleasant. The determination of the remainer Parliament to thwart that decision was remarkable and frankly disgraceful but most of the worst offenders ultimately paid with their jobs and careers which is only right. Good riddance.

Now we need to work together. I have no doubt that the scars from this episode will linger, no one who lives in Scotland could have any uncertainty about that, but as much as possible we need to work in the UK national interest again.

I think that this will take time but as a UK out of the EU becomes the status quo it should be possible. Here's hoping.

In a situation where the decision is controversial, the risks are essentially all downside and where the pathway to success is a narrow one, you might expect those in charge to limit the damage and mitigate the risks. Yet the Johnson regime shows absolutely no interest in doing that. And certainly not in its attitude towards Scotiand.

The prospects for a passably successful Brexit are poor, I would say.

Given that has been your position since before the referendum I am not sure anyone should be surprised you still maintain it.

Indeed. Brexit is a process that has only just begun, not a one day transition that occurred last night. Johnson may have his "Mission accomplished" moment, but it isn't accomplished, by a long way. Now is when it gets interesting.

RobD

YBarddCwsc said:

RobD said:

.

YBarddCwsc said:

RobD said:

In fact, the Sun is ever so slightly warming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#/media/File:Solar_evolution_(English).svg

You have excellent eyesight to detect the gradient in the green line! If there is one!

If a main sequence star heats up slightly, the temperature increases, the radiation pressure increases, the star expands and so it cools back down to its steady state temperature, no?

This is pb.com HyperPedantry though.

I did say ever so slightly. Here's a better plot:

https://d2vlcm61l7u1fs.cloudfront.net/media/389/389509f3-f2ea-47ac-850c-54423ae2b1aa/phpBmKfNZ.png

The dot-dashed line at 4.5 Gyr rises from ~ 5780 K to ~ 5792K and then falls again to ~ 5780 K by 8 Gyr.

This is Ultra-Mega-Super-Hyper-Pedantry ..... but there are no error bars on the modelling due to e.g., uncertainties in the solar composition which causes changes in the opacity, or uncertainties in the rates of the thermonuclear reactions with temperature.

So, put the error bars on your graph and then we will talk 😀

I think modeling of the Sun's interior is sufficiently advanced that we can take these plots as reliable. After all, it's mainly hydrogen and helium.

stodge

Late afternoon all

Thank you for the piece, Cyclefree. This is not 1979, nor is it even 1982. The circumstances were quite different.

As I said this morning, I'm far from certain where the country now goes. It's not Stunde Null - we haven't been militarily defeated or physically conquered as were Germany, Italy, France and much of the rest of Europe in WW2. Once the occupations were over or the liberators had come, the question everyone had to ask was "what's next" which was part looking at the future and part coming to terms with the recent past.

Membership of the EU was a million miles from occupation or conquest (despite what Farage and his ilk would claim) yet the fact remains we have not been in this position since 1972 and that, for most of us, is a lifetime.

Johnson naturally offers an unreconstructed positive version of the future - that's what the PM has to do at times like this and it chimes with his upbeat nature which makes him such a strong electoral asset - how do you beat happy?

Others are much less positive and are immediately criticised by fans of Johnson for the more insidious charge of "talking down Britain" which is the modern version of high treason.

I'm of the view if we can't be honest with ourselves we're going to find it difficult to be honest with each other. I've never expected the sky to fall in or to be eating rats within 24 hours of leaving the EU but that doesn't stop me having concerns about the future economic health of the country.

The nirvana we are promised of free trade with everyone is all well and good but it's not just about trade deals - I'd much rather be talking about the opportunity we now have to re-design or re-imagine the nation state for the 2020s and beyond.

Sometimes a blank piece of paper is intimidating but it's often a good place to start.

RobD

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Theuniondivvie

Dura_Ace said:

Malmesbury said:

There was semi-serious interest in France building one or more copies of the Uk carriers. Their own design has essentially failed.

You can't say the CdG has failed because its prime objective is the same as the HMS QE class - the bolstering of national vanity for a post-imperial power. In that sense it is a success just by existing.

The main technical issue with her (apart from the fact there is only one of them) is that it's slow compared to a Nimitz (27kts vs 31kts) which payload limits the strike package. This stems from using a nuclear power plant based on a submarine design rather than designing a carrier specific variant.

Does that mean our national vanity has double bolstering? Suck it up, crapauds.

Gardenwalker

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.

CatMan

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

RobD

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

For German criminals, surely? UK ones can still be extradited.

Philip_Thompson

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

So do the Germans not extradite criminals to their Swiss neighbours? Or to Norway or others?

Sounds like Germany should update their constitution but that's up to them.

Theuniondivvie

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

For German criminals, surely? UK ones can still be extradited.

Could Prince Andrew claim German citizenship?

RobD

Theuniondivvie said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

For German criminals, surely? UK ones can still be extradited.

Could Prince Andrew claim German citizenship?

Why ever would he need that?

*innocent face*



*banned*

RobD

Philip_Thompson said:

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

So do the Germans not extradite criminals to their Swiss neighbours? Or to Norway or others?

Sounds like Germany should update their constitution but that's up to them.

It isn't exactly a gotcha moment is it? If the Germans want to have convicted criminals roaming their country freely that is their problem.

Stark_Dawning

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

Excellent point. Parliament, rightly, only started to seize the reins when the ERG and co. popped up with the intention of hijacking Brexit and bringing about WTO madness and other assorted nasties. We should be grateful they succeeded (for now).

Richard_Tyndall

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

No. Brexit boost for German criminals. UK ones will still be able to be extradited from Germany.

Jonathan

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

RobD

Jonathan said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

Yeah, and I remember criticising them on here at the time.

CatMan

Richard_Tyndall said:

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

No. Brexit boost for German criminals. UK ones will still be able to be extradited from Germany.

Whoops. I've always said I talk crap on here

Gardenwalker

Jonathan said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.

Richard_Tyndall

CatMan said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CatMan said:

Brexit boost for UK criminals!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51194363

"It won't be possible for some suspected criminals to be brought back to the UK if they flee to Germany. Germany's constitution does not allow its citizens to be extradited, unless it's to another EU country. "This exception cannot apply any more after the UK has left EU," a spokesman from the German Federal Ministry of Justice told BBC News."

No. Brexit boost for German criminals. UK ones will still be able to be extradited from Germany.

Whoops. I've always said I talk crap on here

Nah I read it exactly the same way initially until I went and looked into it a bit more. Also the law in Slovenia and Austria. I wonder if it has something to do with the possible extradition of Nazi suspects in the past. If so it might well be time to update the law.

kinabalu

TheGreenMachine said:

They could but then again Prince Charles could be the next James Bond.

I would say - and this is a completely serious comment - that there is more chance of Prince Charles being cast as the next Bond than there is of Liverpool losing the title.

Richard_Tyndall

Gardenwalker said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.

Yet more utter BS from Mr Gardenwalker.

RobD

Gardenwalker said:

Jonathan said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.

I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.

Gardenwalker

Richard_Tyndall said:

Gardenwalker said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.

Yet more utter BS from Mr Gardenwalker.

You won, by joining hands with xenophobia.
Own it.

Richard_Tyndall

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

As I said they were too cowardly to do it directly - which is what refusing to invoke Article 50 would have been - so they tried to do it in other ways. But again they were too stupid to work out how to do it without getting the blame. And blamed they were which is why so many of them were kicked out.

Richard_Tyndall

Gardenwalker said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Gardenwalker said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.

Yet more utter BS from Mr Gardenwalker.

You won, by joining hands with xenophobia.
Own it.

No matter how often you claim it, it still doesn't make it true. It just shows what a bad loser you are. Unlike most decent Remain voters you and the rest of the unreconciled fanatics deserve all the self inflicted angst you have coming to you.

Richard_Tyndall

Gardenwalker said:

Jonathan said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.

Anyone advocating a second vote was doing exactly that.

Gardenwalker

Richard_Tyndall said:

Gardenwalker said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Gardenwalker said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

Brexit needs a central myth (the people against the elite) in order to mask the essential xenophobia of the movement.

Yet more utter BS from Mr Gardenwalker.

You won, by joining hands with xenophobia.
Own it.

No matter how often you claim it, it still doesn't make it true. It just shows what a bad loser you are. Unlike most decent Remain voters you and the rest of the unreconciled fanatics deserve all the self inflicted angst you have coming to you.

Well, it’s your country. You can do what you want with it. That you have decided - unwittingly to be sure - to consign it to material and moral decline is your lookout.

The rest of the world is moving on.

TheGreenMachine

kinabalu said:

TheGreenMachine said:

They could but then again Prince Charles could be the next James Bond.

I would say - and this is a completely serious comment - that there is more chance of Prince Charles being cast as the next Bond than there is of Liverpool losing the title.

Yes, without doubt but @MarqueeMark comments some ridiculous stuff, stupid comments will always get stupid replies.

Gardenwalker

Richard_Tyndall said:

Gardenwalker said:

Jonathan said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.

Anyone advocating a second vote was doing exactly that.

Laughable. You’ve won already. You should exercise yourself on figuring out the direction of those sunny uplands you’ve promised yourself.

TheGreenMachine

Why bet England 5-6 to win the title when they're 4-7 for one match?

Gardenwalker

RobD said:

Gardenwalker said:

Jonathan said:

RobD said:

CatMan said:

Article 50 was voted through 498 - 114. That's not parliament blocking Brexit.

That's awfully selective.

Indeed, let’s remember the Brexiteers blocking Brexit.

Perhaps also worth recalling we elect a parliament to represent 650 different communities across the UK. There never was a single and obvious outcome from the referendum, and nobody - until Swinson’s idiotic gambit - advocated to ignore the vote.

I don't know. You could argue that seeking a second go was an attempt at ignoring the first vote.

The Runciman article posted earlier was very good and describes the second referendum movement as always a delusion. Probably that’s right. But there were also serious issues with that first vote which has left a poison in the body politic.