politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Swinson’s successor may have only become an MP yesterday
Comments
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Really don't like Priti Patel though, find her deeply sinister0
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We will see if he is.Luckyguy1983 said:
No, that was Cameron. Boris won't be content without being a great PM.CorrectHorseBattery said:
This rather underlines my point though, Johnson is very good at winning things - but he's very poor at actually changing anything.BluestBlue said:
Things we've been told over the years:
Boris won't win in London...
Boris won't win in London twice...
Boris won't be in the Cabinet...
Boris won't be Prime Minister...
Boris won't get a Brexit Deal...
Boris won't win an election...
Boris won't win a landslide...
Betting against Boris has worked out not necessarily to his critics' advantage.
My view of him is that he's only interested in winning, he's not actually interested in changing the country. But we will see.0 -
I hope you stopped after "mo" 😉JBriskinindyref2 said:
I get confused with all the South American ones - but yeah I think they're having a bad time of it at the moment.ReggieCide said:
Like Venezuela you mean?JBriskinindyref2 said:
Thing about Blue Labour - is that it is not a parody - A Triangulation too far.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Become a tory !!!!!!!CorrectHorseBattery said:How does so-called "Blue Labour" (which is probably where Labour needs to go) bridge the gap between Labour communities in the North and London?
As for what labour should do... Well there are plenty of socialist governments across the world - they should copy whatever they did.
I probably shouldn't be giving Labour such good advice now I am officially a PB Tory (even if I did go eenie meenie mineee mo)0 -
Useless fact: she's the only Labour MP I've met in person, albeit only for about 20 seconds.CorrectHorseBattery said:Jess will stand
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Honestly it's two non-entities screeching into the wind. All of these are best left of ignored. It's the best advice I can give to Labour.The_Apocalypse said:
Ayesha - former Labour advisorAlphabet_Soup said:
Who on earth are these people?The_Apocalypse said:
Can’t really take Ayesha seriously when she was busy palling around with Sarkar, taking selfies with her etc. Ash Sarkar was a communist back then, but Ayesha was still happy to associate with her. Her retweet of Guido also screams ‘people I don’t like’ shouldn’t be given a platform.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Ash Sarkar - works with Novara media0 -
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Lisa Nandy would make an excellent leader IMO. She's a little lightweight at the moment, but that would improve over time.rottenborough said:Hmm. Important and key figure in the Jezza project, highlighting Nandy?
Something afoot?
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/12058579761097318410 -
Thank you. It was actually a rhetorical question, but I'll try and remember them in future.The_Apocalypse said:
Ayesha - former Labour advisorAlphabet_Soup said:
Who on earth are these people?The_Apocalypse said:
Can’t really take Ayesha seriously when she was busy palling around with Sarkar, taking selfies with her etc. Ash Sarkar was a communist back then, but Ayesha was still happy to associate with her. Her retweet of Guido also screams ‘people I don’t like’ shouldn’t be given a platform.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Ash Sarkar - works with Novara media
I'm also sloping off and concur with other comments about the pleasant atmosphere here this evening. As a parting gift here's a story I found quite uplifting and I hope others do so too:
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/man-22-ended-up-homeless-174155540 -
Doesn't seem to have a lot of baggage eitherAndy_JS said:
Lisa Nandy would make an excellent leader IMO. She's a little lightweight at the moment, but that would improve over time.rottenborough said:Hmm. Important and key figure in the Jezza project, highlighting Nandy?
Something afoot?
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/12058579761097318410 -
Any polls tonight?2
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Nandy seems like a potential uniter of the party - but I fear she's not ruthless enough to kick out some of the bad lot. Although perhaps with a strong SC she'll grow into the role.0
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I can't speak for all pragmatic lefties, but for this one it's the bloody principle. It simply works better at mediating political opinions and platforms. And yes, the fascists should get five seats and be exposed for what they are. And yes, there will be right wing governments. But they will be in place because a majority of voters supported them. Fair's fair.Gabs3 said:There have been several times over the last few years with Brexit Party + Tories on 50%+. I don't think PR is the panacea to right wing government some want it to be.
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I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.0 -
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*shakes head very slowly*LucyMorales said:Any polls tonight?
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Are you seriousLucyMorales said:Any polls tonight?
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Is this what you are after:squareroot2 said:Is there a graph of psbr from 2010 brown to now showing the decline under successive tory govts. My stepson does not believe me..
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/dzls/pusf
You can smooth it by selecting year near the top.0 -
I forgot her, of course. Easily done,CorrectHorseBattery said:Really don't like Priti Patel though, find her deeply sinister
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She was Ed Miliband adviser in 2015.ReggieCide said:
What do you mean? She didn't advise Corbyn so has no idea what he was up to or you would expect that someone who talks like she does couldn't possibly have advised Corbyn - too posh, too clever, too centrist?The_Apocalypse said:
That ‘someone’ should be an individual who isn’t a hypocrite though. It should also be someone who was actually involved in an election winning machine. Ayesha talks like she wasn’t an advisor to guy who also lost an election.rottenborough said:
Still, someone, indeed everyone who wants some kind of left of centre government before mid century, needs to tell these fools to fuck off and join the SWP where they belong.The_Apocalypse said:
Can’t really take Ayesha seriously when she was busy palling around with Sarkar, taking selfies with her etc. Ash Sarkar was a communist back then, but Ayesha was still happy to associate with her. Her retweet of Guido also screams ‘people I don’t like’ shouldn’t be given a platform.CorrectHorseBattery said:
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Andy_JS said:
Lisa Nandy would make an excellent leader IMO. She's a little lightweight at the moment, but that would improve over time.rottenborough said:Hmm. Important and key figure in the Jezza project, highlighting Nandy?
Something afoot?
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/1205857976109731841
She was always promising to vote for the withdrawal agreement until the last possible moment when she found an excuse not to.
If Labour need a can't make my mind up ditherer she would be perfect..
What Tony Benn would have called a weathercock.0 -
vehicle = space ship? Just askin'glw said:
I wasn't suggesting that they will grow up, but maybe they will get bored and find another vehicle for the inevitable proletarian revolution.ReggieCide said:
There is always the off chance that, if you wait long enough, the far-left will grow upglw said:
Yes, it's unlikely that the huge number of new members who joined for Corbyn are now going to turn around and say "we were wrong, what Labour needs is a new Blair". The only way you are going to counter that is either get an even huger number of moderates to join the party, or wait until successive failures see the far-left get bored and drift away.rottenborough said:
It seems likely Labour will waste the next five years by electing a younger Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:
On what basis do you think you can magic away Corbyn and momentum then suddenly all these voters will flock back in five, more likely 10 yearsCorrectHorseBattery said:
Corbyn again and again and again. But if Labour wakes up most of these voters seem like they could come back.squareroot2 said:My portillo moment
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50777371
Boris will not be sitting back, he will be very pro active in the north and of course Brexit will not feature in 5 years time
It is impossible for anyone to say where the UK will be in 5 years but the idea stale socialism will appeal once Corbyn has gone is for the birds. A new centre left party is needed that takes pride in the country and promotes business and itself
We have one example of this already and Boris has just now parked his tanks on that lawn.
Of course the other example is Nicola Sturgeon but she solely promotes Scotland0 -
I presume that means even more power in the hands of the new members.rottenborough said:0 -
According to the brainwashed multitude. Yes, he will succeed. And the country will go down the drain.Luckyguy1983 said:
No, that was Cameron. Boris won't be content without being a great PM.CorrectHorseBattery said:
This rather underlines my point though, Johnson is very good at winning things - but he's very poor at actually changing anything.BluestBlue said:
Things we've been told over the years:
Boris won't win in London...
Boris won't win in London twice...
Boris won't be in the Cabinet...
Boris won't be Prime Minister...
Boris won't get a Brexit Deal...
Boris won't win an election...
Boris won't win a landslide...
Betting against Boris has worked out not necessarily to his critics' advantage.
My view of him is that he's only interested in winning, he's not actually interested in changing the country. But we will see.0 -
Just watched "Bombshell", about bringing down the boss of FOX. Very well written and acted. Out here in January.0
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That'll be because social media before the election was full of stats about growth in the overall debt, not the annual borrowing requirement.squareroot2 said:Is there a graph of psbr from 2010 brown to now showing the decline under successive tory govts. My stepson does not believe me..
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He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.ReggieCide said:
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.0 -
Momentum need straws to grasp.....LucyMorales said:Any polls tonight?
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You're not really that surprised are you? Lansman's Loonies know that they're right and everyone else is not only wrong but so stupid that they think they're right ha ha harottenborough said:0 -
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizonCorrectHorseBattery said:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgefield_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
(You'll have to type the link in manually)
Sedgefield for instance.
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.0 -
The daughter of a Marxist about to emerge from years as a 'moderate' sleep agent?rottenborough said:Hmm. Important and key figure in the Jezza project, highlighting Nandy?
Something afoot?
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/12058579761097318410 -
This is what you're up against and they really do control most of the levers of power within the party. Corbyn has destroyed Labour from within and Boris from without.CorrectHorseBattery said:0 -
Old news I’m guessing, but I only just saw it
https://twitter.com/gavinshuker/status/1205335750650273799?s=210 -
Jeremy Corbyn's assessment of the election result:
"We won the argument, but I regret we didn’t convert that into a majority for change
Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change0 -
So she has nothing to do with this loser, just the last one?alex_ said:
She was Ed Miliband adviser in 2015.ReggieCide said:
What do you mean? She didn't advise Corbyn so has no idea what he was up to or you would expect that someone who talks like she does couldn't possibly have advised Corbyn - too posh, too clever, too centrist?The_Apocalypse said:
That ‘someone’ should be an individual who isn’t a hypocrite though. It should also be someone who was actually involved in an election winning machine. Ayesha talks like she wasn’t an advisor to guy who also lost an election.rottenborough said:
Still, someone, indeed everyone who wants some kind of left of centre government before mid century, needs to tell these fools to fuck off and join the SWP where they belong.The_Apocalypse said:
Can’t really take Ayesha seriously when she was busy palling around with Sarkar, taking selfies with her etc. Ash Sarkar was a communist back then, but Ayesha was still happy to associate with her. Her retweet of Guido also screams ‘people I don’t like’ shouldn’t be given a platform.CorrectHorseBattery said:0 -
I'm looking for the polling on which GE pledges cut through from each party, can someone do me a favour and point me in the right direction?0
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Well it’s possible. I seem to remember after previous elections there are usually follow up polls? Wasn’t Corbyn ahead of May days after he lost?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Are you seriousLucyMorales said:Any polls tonight?
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He definitely achieved a majority for changing Jeremy CorbynAndy_JS said:Jeremy Corbyn's assessment of the election result:
"We won the argument, but I regret we didn’t convert that into a majority for change
Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change0 -
By not doing enough to defrock Corbyn?CorrectHorseBattery said:
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.ReggieCide said:
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.0 -
Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.0 -
Labour were the frog in water slowly boiled to deathMaxPB said:
This is what you're up against and they really do control most of the levers of power within the party. Corbyn has destroyed Labour from within and Boris from without.CorrectHorseBattery said:
People told them and told them - now look at where they are1 -
By nominating him in the first place?ReggieCide said:
By not doing enough to defrock Corbyn?CorrectHorseBattery said:
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.ReggieCide said:
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.0 -
I presume you've bet the house on that then. Good odds I presume.OllyT said:
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizonCorrectHorseBattery said:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgefield_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
(You'll have to type the link in manually)
Sedgefield for instance.
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.0 -
https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1205914348885024768
There are good elements in here - but why do I sniff a sense of denial?0 -
Which - of course - is definitely a Christmas RemainerMango said:
I thought the accepted PB description was "diehard Remainer"?AlastairMeeks said:
This “ultra-Remainer” has for a very long time been stating that two things are required before this country can move on: Remainers to accept that they lost and Leavers to accept that Brexit is a shitshow. Remainers are showing signs of their bit. Leavers are showing none of theirs, despite precisely none of the touted benefits of a Leave vote having emerged and many vices having crept out of the woodwork.Byronic said:
And ultra-Remainers like you. Who lose all common sense, become hysterically upset over everything, see evil heretics everywhere, and believe in miracles like the Second Coming, sorry, Referendum.AlastairMeeks said:
The parallels with Leavers are obvious.Byronic said:
Yes, it's religiosity without God. A faith.algarkirk said:
Had the same experience. Perfectly nice decent people generally - the sort of generally would be horrified at being associated with Jew baiters - are just in denial about the reality of the polling figures, and the nature of the people who are the praetorian guard of the party. They seem too intelligent to be just 'useful idiots' but that is how they seem. Feels more like fundamentalist religion to me.Byronic said:fp for OLBoy
To be fair it's not all of my Labour friends, but it is a couple, and they are the most politically committed (they go on marches and demos). So they are the people who will elect the new leader.
It's grim for Labour.
One of them is a smart artist in her 50s. Very well read. Phd. Etc.
She was convinced that Corbyn would win, even though I spent 20 minutes over drinks, recently, trying to show her the plentiful evidence that he was likely to lose. She just kept shaking her head and saying things like "youthquake".
Now she tells me she is in "shock".
I mean, what can you do?!1 -
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.0 -
Now the election is over, perhaps we can have a serious discussion about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and people on the left can find their consciences that were buried beneath their tribal politics. For those who think it is over egged, here is a round-up.
In Britain, a formal complaint about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party from the Jewish Labour Movement was leaked last week. It makes for some sobering reading. Here are a few of the incidents these Jewish socialists have compiled: In March 2019, a Labour councilor made a joke about “Jew process”; she also rewrote the “First they came for the Jews …” trope to include “they came for the anti-Zionists”; one Jewish Labour member claims that at local Labour Party meetings, he was called “a Tory Jew,” “Zio-scum,” a “child killer,” and told “to shut the fuck up, Jew” and “Hitler was right.” One former Labour councilor was told to “go home and count your money”; one Labour member was told that the Jewish Labour Movement was “financed and controlled by the Israeli government.” Two Labour delegates at the annual party conference in 2018 averred that Jews are “subhuman” and that “they should be grateful we don’t force them to eat bacon at breakfast every day.” These are in reports from Labour Party officials.
Addressing this must be the first act of a new Labour leader. Keeping the pressure on will show Tories weren't just interested in it as an election issue.
In the broader Labour movement, it’s just as bad. In 2016, at the Oxford University Labour Club, Auschwitz was described as “a cash cow.” Online, Jews have been described as “bent-nosed manipulative liars”; there have been claims that Zionists ran the Nazi death camps; and former Labour MP Luciana Berger was subjected to horrifying abuse in 2018, such as “we shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on all of us.” Another Jewish Labour MP, Ruth Smeeth, was called a “yid cunt” and a “fucking traitor.” Margaret Hodge MP has been described on pro-Corbyn Facebook pages as “Zionist bitch,” a “zionist remedial cancer,” “under orders from her paymasters in Israel.” She has received abusively anti-Semitic emails, among which include the following: “Isn’t better [sic] that troublemakers like yourself return to where you and your religion comes from. If you think about it in detail, your are the ones who are racist, by telling us what we must do to please you. We are in our homeland.” And: “Your smear campaign in defense of a racist ethno-state would make Goebbels proud.”
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This is a pretty rubbish attack it must be saidmaaarsh said:
The daughter of a Marxist about to emerge from years as a 'moderate' sleep agent?rottenborough said:Hmm. Important and key figure in the Jezza project, highlighting Nandy?
Something afoot?
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/12058579761097318410 -
Do they? They want social democratic economics (welfare state etc) but a harder edge on social issues (e.g. crime).CorrectHorseBattery said:0 -
I thought you were a Corbynista - I apologiseCorrectHorseBattery said:0 -
Sounds as if Corbyn is refusing to go
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition0 -
That article by Andrew Sullivan referred to earlier is spot on.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/andrew-sullivan-boris-johnsons-winning-formula.html
It is more wide-ranging than the title suggests, with lessons for American politics and an assessment of the new anti-semitism.0 -
If they had caused more problems you would not be in this messCorrectHorseBattery said:
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.ReggieCide said:
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.0 -
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.0 -
If Labour had been prepared to listen, we would not be in this mess. I regret many of us were too arrogant to do so.Floater said:
If they had caused more problems you would not be in this messCorrectHorseBattery said:
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.ReggieCide said:
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.1 -
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/15/boris-johnson-bonkers-plan-for-15bn-pound-bridge-derided-by-engineersLuckyguy1983 said:
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones0 -
He says in the article Labour will soon have a new leader.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sounds as if Corbyn is refusing to go
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition
But I do agree he should go now.0 -
Any idea how much that might cost, what sort of toll could be charged?Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.0 -
What is their actual basis for this continued claim that they "won all the arguments"?CorrectHorseBattery said:0 -
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.0 -
As a Durhamite conservative leaver Darren Grimes must be one of the happiest people in Britain at the moment. His stuff is not usually my cup of tea but I did appreciate this one!
https://twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/12056215333323980810 -
Yes a Corbynista. As Theresa said 'nothing changes'CorrectHorseBattery said:
He says in the article Labour will soon have a new leader.Big_G_NorthWales said:Sounds as if Corbyn is refusing to go
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition
But I do agree he should go now.0 -
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.0 -
Telegraph: "Boris Johnson plans radical overhaul of civil service to guarantee 'people's Brexit'
So it begins. Cummings mad scheming set to destroy uk government.0 -
I can't see the bombs being a problem as much as the Irish sea being an incredibly deep trench.CorrectHorseBattery said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/15/boris-johnson-bonkers-plan-for-15bn-pound-bridge-derided-by-engineersLuckyguy1983 said:
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones0 -
When someone says "blah, blah, blah, blah, but we lost and of course i accept my responsibility for that..." you can guarantee that they don't hold themselves responsible at all.CorrectHorseBattery said:
1 -
You mean, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime? 🙂rottenborough said:
Do they? They want social democratic economics (welfare state etc) but a harder edge on social issues (e.g. crime).CorrectHorseBattery said:
If Johnson has any sense he'll turn the Tories into something resembling New Labour, minus the luvvies, Europhilia and foreign wars. Occupy the centre-left's territory and leave the sensible wing of Labour with nowhere left to go except to join him.0 -
Johnson vs civil service.
hmm.0 -
I wasn't commenting on whether he'll succeed or not - it is a statement on his character. Cameron 'I think I'd be rather good at it' just wanted the bragging rights of getting the top job. Boris' wants to get in because he has grand plans. Whether that thrills or terrifies you, it is clearly a fact. He's not just going to walk around Number 10 soaking up the atmosphere.ClippP said:
According to the brainwashed multitude. Yes, he will succeed. And the country will go down the drain.Luckyguy1983 said:
No, that was Cameron. Boris won't be content without being a great PM.CorrectHorseBattery said:
This rather underlines my point though, Johnson is very good at winning things - but he's very poor at actually changing anything.BluestBlue said:
Things we've been told over the years:
Boris won't win in London...
Boris won't win in London twice...
Boris won't be in the Cabinet...
Boris won't be Prime Minister...
Boris won't get a Brexit Deal...
Boris won't win an election...
Boris won't win a landslide...
Betting against Boris has worked out not necessarily to his critics' advantage.
My view of him is that he's only interested in winning, he's not actually interested in changing the country. But we will see.0 -
The moderates have a nigh on impossible task - at least in the short to medium term.handandmouse said:
They are out for years more1 -
https://twitter.com/HarryYorke1/status/1205973656863678465?s=20
Angela Rayner might get union support - which is somewhat surprising.0 -
You really need to invest in some atlases at Ulitsa Savushina. The Borders are on the other side of Scotland from where the bridge would be.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.3 -
Quite a lot of detail in this Wiki article. Costs in the region of £20 billion, if we apply the rule of "and you probably need to double the initial estimate when someone's trying to stoke up interest" then it's still not completely infeasible. Certainly the engineering is possible (will mean spending a lot of money cleaning up WW2 munitions!). May not make actual economic sense, but that's a different issue. The symbolism is important here.ReggieCide said:
Any idea how much that might cost, what sort of toll could be charged?Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
Interestingly it's something that the DUP and Sturgeon are in agreement on! And I do wonder if Boris is tempted.0 -
It would also be the longest bridge in the worldGabs3 said:
I can't see the bombs being a problem as much as the Irish sea being an incredibly deep trench.CorrectHorseBattery said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/15/boris-johnson-bonkers-plan-for-15bn-pound-bridge-derided-by-engineersLuckyguy1983 said:
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones0 -
I think you'll find social democracy can bridge those elements quite well.Black_Rook said:
You mean, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime? 🙂rottenborough said:
Do they? They want social democratic economics (welfare state etc) but a harder edge on social issues (e.g. crime).CorrectHorseBattery said:
If Johnson has any sense he'll turn the Tories into something resembling New Labour, minus the luvvies, Europhilia and foreign wars. Occupy the centre-left's territory and leave the sensible wing of Labour with nowhere left to go except to join him.0 -
I was at the confederation bridge connecting Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick in Canada in September. It was opened in 1997 and spans 8 miles and is the Worlds longest bridge over ice covered water.ReggieCide said:
Any idea how much that might cost, what sort of toll could be charged?Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
It cost 1.3 billion Canadian dollars and cost 47.75 dollars (£28) return0 -
Are we not allowed to think big any more?CorrectHorseBattery said:
It would also be the longest bridge in the worldGabs3 said:
I can't see the bombs being a problem as much as the Irish sea being an incredibly deep trench.CorrectHorseBattery said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/15/boris-johnson-bonkers-plan-for-15bn-pound-bridge-derided-by-engineersLuckyguy1983 said:
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones0 -
I think it's well worth a shot. As I say Labour polled 40% under Corbyn 2 years ago. By the next GE the Tories will have been in power 14 years, Corbyn's replacement is unlikely to have the same baggage and many of the seats the Tories gained on Thursday could easily switch back if Brexit hasn't delivered the goods for them.ReggieCide said:
I presume you've bet the house on that then. Good odds I presume.OllyT said:
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizonCorrectHorseBattery said:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgefield_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s
(You'll have to type the link in manually)
Sedgefield for instance.
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.
I didn't vote Labour by the way but disastrous as the result was for them they still polled over 10 million votes to the Tories 13m.
The electorate is fickle and volatile. You clearly can't see anything going right for Labour or anything going wrong for Johnson over the coming years. I can.0 -
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.Mysticrose said:I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.2 -
There's a guy in Shoreditch with a beard, who, in between forking avocado on toast into his mouth, says it is true.alex_ said:
What is their actual basis for this continued claim that they "won all the arguments"?CorrectHorseBattery said:2 -
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.Mysticrose said:The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.0 -
THIS!!! A thousand times.Casino_Royale said:
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.Mysticrose said:I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
1 -
Margaret Beckett and? Can't see any other obvious centrists but I can clearly recognise many of the names as very much on the left of the party. The cancer has obviously been present for some time. There was also much protestation from the right but the genie was out of the bottlerottenborough said:
By nominating him in the first place?ReggieCide said:
By not doing enough to defrock Corbyn?CorrectHorseBattery said:
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.ReggieCide said:
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.CorrectHorseBattery said:Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.0 -
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.Andy_JS said:Jeremy Corbyn's assessment of the election result:
"We won the argument, but I regret we didn’t convert that into a majority for change
Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change
I really wanted to taste that.0 -
How does that accept Brexit?Gabs3 said:
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.Mysticrose said:The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.0 -
Can somebody get Cummings to go and have his operation?rottenborough said:Telegraph: "Boris Johnson plans radical overhaul of civil service to guarantee 'people's Brexit'
So it begins. Cummings mad scheming set to destroy uk government.0 -
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.CorrectHorseBattery said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/15/boris-johnson-bonkers-plan-for-15bn-pound-bridge-derided-by-engineersLuckyguy1983 said:
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones0 -
And that wins back Northern seats how?Gabs3 said:
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.Mysticrose said:The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.0 -
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.Casino_Royale said:
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.Andy_JS said:Jeremy Corbyn's assessment of the election result:
"We won the argument, but I regret we didn’t convert that into a majority for change
Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change
I really wanted to taste that.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)0 -
It's a mistake to expect defeated Labour members and activists to come to terms with it immediately.
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.0 -
The desire and the ability are two separate things. Boris may have the ability. And he may not.Luckyguy1983 said:
No, that was Cameron. Boris won't be content without being a great PM.CorrectHorseBattery said:
This rather underlines my point though, Johnson is very good at winning things - but he's very poor at actually changing anything.BluestBlue said:
Things we've been told over the years:
Boris won't win in London...
Boris won't win in London twice...
Boris won't be in the Cabinet...
Boris won't be Prime Minister...
Boris won't get a Brexit Deal...
Boris won't win an election...
Boris won't win a landslide...
Betting against Boris has worked out not necessarily to his critics' advantage.
My view of him is that he's only interested in winning, he's not actually interested in changing the country. But we will see.0 -
How on earth can that work?Gabs3 said:
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.Mysticrose said:The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
I agree with Heseltine. I think Labour need to be a Leave party and move on with how best to make it work.0 -
Oh.rpjs said:
You really need to invest in some atlases at Ulitsa Savushina. The Borders are on the other side of Scotland from where the bridge would be.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
I don't get there very often to be fair. 0 -
Hangzhou Bay Bridge is 35.673 km (22 miles). Believe this is longer than the route under discussion. An alternative Mull of Kintyre to County Antrim route is even shorter (19 km / 12 miles) but doesn't seem to generate as much interest.RobD said:
Are we not allowed to think big any more?CorrectHorseBattery said:
It would also be the longest bridge in the worldGabs3 said:
I can't see the bombs being a problem as much as the Irish sea being an incredibly deep trench.CorrectHorseBattery said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/15/boris-johnson-bonkers-plan-for-15bn-pound-bridge-derided-by-engineersLuckyguy1983 said:
That's PR fluff. Clearly you'd get the all clear on bombs before work started.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's a terrible idea. The Irish Sea is fall of unexploded WW2 bombs.Luckyguy1983 said:Interesting someone above has mentioned the Northern Ireland bridge. It's something that isn't going away - here's the DUP bringing it up just now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/14/build-bridge-scotland-bolster-union-dup-urges-boris-johnson/amp/
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones0 -
Hold your horses. What we really need to be ready for, as left-liberal internationalists, is facing down fascism in 5 to 10 years, when this "Tories against Thatcherism" has been shown to be utter bollocks. When the betrayal sinks in, those Red Wall Tories are going to be looking for solutions. Someone will be peddling a simplistic fascist one. We'd better have an alternative ready that can get the support of business and at least some of the media.Mysticrose said:The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
All this was inevitable from 24/6/16...0
