A random O/T thought. How much has the decline in the local press contributed to what we see today, with newspapers/media dominated by 'journalists' who spend most of their time spouting opinions which have very little grounding in real evidence or reality? And particularly has contributed to an almost total failure to understand and analyse the real thoughts of the electorate as a whole.
Where once the background of a huge of journalists was grounded in knowledge of local communities, something people took with them when they moved to the national press (or in many cases never moved) now journalists are almost all entering the media straight out of university and where ability to "make an argument" is recognised, but not to actually make an argument that fits the reality. And where they think nothing of saying one thing in November, and saying completely the opposite in December. Usually without any need to admit that this means that they may have been wrong.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.
What I find really extraordinary is that on September 25th they would almost certainly have succeeded in a VONC with an installation of an alternative PM. Instead they bickered. And lost.
With the benefit of hindsight, I wonder if Swinson regrets not giving in on her "never Corbyn" red line?
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
You're a centrist?
Could have fooled me.
Don't you mean you just wish the centre of public opinion is where you're at?
At some point your bitterness will hopefully evaporate and you will turn your energy to rebuilding this country and helping to bring people together. It's going to be needed because Brexit is going to be a (very) tough project to deliver successfully. That's where your focus should now be.
Yes I am. I just have a few ideas which might appear 'radical' like the public ownership of railways. Something which the majority of us agree with.
There's plenty about the Corbyn agenda that was bonkers.
No bitterness at all; you're reflecting your own feelings onto me.
Your posts on here are far from centrist, and at the same time are highly emotional: your responses dependent upon whether people agree with you or not.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.
What I find really extraordinary is that on September 25th they would almost certainly have succeeded in a VONC with an installation of an alternative PM. Instead they bickered. And lost.
With the benefit of hindsight, I wonder if Swinson regrets not giving in on her "never Corbyn" red line?
I would hope not. And good for her if so.
Yep. Plague on both their houses. Corbyn needed to swallow his, and Momentum's, fanatical zeal.
If they had installed Ken Clarke the country would look very different right now.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.
How on earth can that work?
I agree with Heseltine. I think Labour need to be a Leave party and move on with how best to make it work.
How can you be a progressive party if you don't care about international unity or the poor in other countries?
So the way to win back the Northern working class is to tell them that some of their taxes are going to help the poor in other countries, rather than helping improve their lot back home?
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.
What I find really extraordinary is that on September 25th they would almost certainly have succeeded in a VONC with an installation of an alternative PM. Instead they bickered. And lost.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.
How on earth can that work?
I agree with Heseltine. I think Labour need to be a Leave party and move on with how best to make it work.
How can you be a progressive party if you don't care about international unity or the poor in other countries?
That I agree with but I do think that's it for Britain in the EU. We're about to come out and trying to campaign to rejoin would be a sad, sad, sight. We need to move on and make Brexit Britain work.
(The fact that I think we're going to end up impoverished doesn't mean we shouldn't all try and make it work)
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
A random O/T thought. How much has the decline in the local press contributed to what we see today, with newspapers/media dominated by 'journalists' who spend most of their time spouting opinions which have very little grounding in real evidence or reality? And particularly has contributed to an almost total failure to understand and analyse the real thoughts of the electorate as a whole.
Where once the background of a huge of journalists was grounded in knowledge of local communities, something people took with them when they moved to the national press (or in many cases never moved) now journalists are almost all entering the media straight out of university and where ability to "make an argument" is recognised, but not to actually make an argument that fits the reality. And where they think nothing of saying one thing in November, and saying completely the opposite in December. Usually without any need to admit that this means that they may have been wrong.
The good thing is that local papers still exist in most of the country. In the United States they are apparently disappearing altogether from a lot of places, even towns with pretty large populations.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
You're a centrist?
Could have fooled me.
Don't you mean you just wish the centre of public opinion is where you're at?
At some point your bitterness will hopefully evaporate and you will turn your energy to rebuilding this country and helping to bring people together. It's going to be needed because Brexit is going to be a (very) tough project to deliver successfully. That's where your focus should now be.
Yes I am. I just have a few ideas which might appear 'radical' like the public ownership of railways. Something which the majority of us agree with.
There's plenty about the Corbyn agenda that was bonkers.
No bitterness at all; you're reflecting your own feelings onto me.
Your posts on here are far from centrist, and at the same time are highly emotional: your responses dependent upon whether people agree with you or not.
It's a mistake to expect defeated Labour members and activists to come to terms with it immediately.
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.
Interesting point - but if Corbyn hangs around longer, is that going to be "productive reflection time" or is it going to be "scheming, plotting and organising time"?
We were discussing rail earlier. Someone wondered what date you reckoned Crossrail might be up and running by. I wondered what the prospects were for the northern end of HS2 - if Boris is going to go Plus-Quam-George-Osborne with Northern Powerhouse Blue Wall infrastructure spending, is there any realistic way he can (a) build HS2 from north-to-south in parallel with south-to-north rather than the northern end not getting done for decades, and/or (b) build the HS3 Liverpool to Hull in parallel with HS2 rather than afterwards? (Believe this is far from shovel-ready but could work be started before the next election, perhaps?) I wondered what the practical limitations were eg do we simply not have the railway building capacity to take on so much work at once, are the plans insufficiently advanced etc? Wondered if you might be able to clue us up a bit.
The best thing would be for Corbyn to stand down for an interim leader over Christmas, who then runs a long campaign. Failing that, he can't stay longer than about 12 weeks. Labour activists need to come back in the NY and think fast.
On your second question, building HS2 from the north is a non-starter. The capacity constraints are into London, so it would just be a white elephant: the trains couldn't decant anywhere.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
On the contrary, I am all for engineering experts when it comes to engineering projects, and since this project has already been examined and costed more than once over a period of decades, it is clear that engineering experts more experienced than you, me, or @Ishmael_Z, do not consider the WW2 bombs to be a sufficient blocker to make this a no go.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
I'm not sure that will stop Johnson. He wanted the estuary airport don't forget.
It will definitely not stop him if he does a quick Google and finds it's not true.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
You're a centrist?
Could have fooled me.
Don't you mean you just wish the centre of public opinion is where you're at?
At some point your bitterness will hopefully evaporate and you will turn your energy to rebuilding this country and helping to bring people together. It's going to be needed because Brexit is going to be a (very) tough project to deliver successfully. That's where your focus should now be.
Yes I am. I just have a few ideas which might appear 'radical' like the public ownership of railways. Something which the majority of us agree with.
There's plenty about the Corbyn agenda that was bonkers.
No bitterness at all; you're reflecting your own feelings onto me.
Your posts on here are far from centrist, and at the same time are highly emotional: your responses dependent upon whether people agree with you or not.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
CHB - didn't they mock that people like us would be gone from this site by now?
They did. But I think you and I have had similar realisations in the last few days.
I genuinely think I'm a pragmatist, what underlines me is getting the Conservative Party out - and I think therefore you can see where I come from with my views.
I genuinely thought Labour could do that with Corbyn and his policies - but I was wrong. Some of them aren't bad in isolation - but it's caught up in the anti-business, anti-media, anti-aspiration, really anti-Britain sphere that makes him so toxic. I am embarrassed I could not see it.
A random O/T thought. How much has the decline in the local press contributed to what we see today, with newspapers/media dominated by 'journalists' who spend most of their time spouting opinions which have very little grounding in real evidence or reality? And particularly has contributed to an almost total failure to understand and analyse the real thoughts of the electorate as a whole.
Where once the background of a huge of journalists was grounded in knowledge of local communities, something people took with them when they moved to the national press (or in many cases never moved) now journalists are almost all entering the media straight out of university and where ability to "make an argument" is recognised, but not to actually make an argument that fits the reality. And where they think nothing of saying one thing in November, and saying completely the opposite in December. Usually without any need to admit that this means that they may have been wrong.
The good thing is that local papers still exist in most of the country. In the United States they are apparently disappearing altogether from a lot of places, even towns with pretty large populations.
They exist but they don't contain much journalism. From my reading a lot of their content comes direct from local council (or sometimes opposition) press releases.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Someone else has linked the wiki page for a far longer bridge....
Wouldn't surprise me if the Boris Bridge is far more technically challenging mind you, and I Am Not An Expert but could well be "largest bridge of type X" for quite a painfully wide range of values of "X".
I doubt that bridge will be seriously considered, let alone built. Why invest money in places that offer you few or no votes, and which might sod off in a few years' time?
The cash would, from the point of view of political expediency, best be lavished on England and Wales. Now, a tidal power barrage across the Bristol Channel, with a road running along the top to join Glamorgan and Somerset - that would be a project... 😁
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
It separatist versus unionist - and us Scots have been well used to it since 2012
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Were're currently struggling with high speed rail, something for which the technology exists and examples can be seen in across the world. But no Boris will fix everything.
You cannot slogan your way out of building the most technologically challenging bridge in the world, in a fucking shipping lane over a giant munitions dump. Run all the Facebook campaigns you want. Plaster it over the Sun and the Mail, it changes nothing. Look at the expected cost over runs of Crossrail, HS2 and the latest super-subsidised nuclear power stations and then honestly say you think Boris, the man of 'the airport on the Thames' can feasibly build a bridge across the Irish sea.
We all know every time Johnson needed a little publicity he'd whip out one of these spaff covered monstrosities and then ignore the backlash like the mother of his last illegitimate child. For the cost of the fucking thing you could run a free ferry service for eternity.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
That's good - it was quite unbecoming for a party leader!
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
Thanks.
It was evidently celebration at Jo's decapitation.
I guess sometime that's going to come back and bite her but who knows.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.
And that wins back Northern seats how?
You seem to be assuming that WWC leavers will be as happy with Brexit once it has happened as they are now. They could be but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brexit does b*gger all for them and they come to believe that they were conned.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
I can't see the bombs being a problem as much as the Irish sea being an incredibly deep trench.
It would also be the longest bridge in the world
Are we not allowed to think big any more?
Hangzhou Bay Bridge is 35.673 km (22 miles). Believe this is longer than the route under discussion. An alternative Mull of Kintyre to County Antrim route is even shorter (19 km / 12 miles) but doesn't seem to generate as much interest.
You could always build two more bridges East and West of Arran to reduce the journey time.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.
How on earth can that work?
I agree with Heseltine. I think Labour need to be a Leave party and move on with how best to make it work.
How can you be a progressive party if you don't care about international unity or the poor in other countries?
That I agree with but I do think that's it for Britain in the EU. We're about to come out and trying to campaign to rejoin would be a sad, sad, sight. We need to move on and make Brexit Britain work.
(The fact that I think we're going to end up impoverished doesn't mean we shouldn't all try and make it work)
On the FPTP vs PR argument, I think there are clearly arguments for both. There are successful countries with PR (like Germany, Israel or Switzerland) and successful ones with FPTP (like the US or Australia). I don't think either is some panacea that brings good governance.
Australia uses AV for the lower house and STV for the upper house. And has proper federalisation. It is way more democratic than the UK.
Link to a biased pro-PR article, but with useful references of studies examining the large body of evidence for the superiority of consensual systems over winner-take-all systems:
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
Thanks.
It was evidently celebration at Jo's decapitation.
I guess sometime that's going to come back and bite her but who knows.
Right off for some breakfast. The sun is up.
One day the SNP won't be dominant in Scotland. It just might take independence for it to happen!
Wasn't she planning on quitting/retiring as leader early next year, or have I just totally made that up?
It's a mistake to expect defeated Labour members and activists to come to terms with it immediately.
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.
‘Weeks or months’? These are people who make up a large percentage of, and have the same entitled world view as, those who haven’t reached stage 2 of grief over 2016s referendum
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.
And that wins back Northern seats how?
You seem to be assuming that WWC leavers will be as happy with Brexit once it has happened as they are now. They could be but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brexit does b*gger all for them and they come to believe that they were conned.
And so the prospect of handing over money to the EU each week is supposed to be attractive?
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
That's good - it was quite unbecoming for a party leader!
Lol sturgeon. When Boris tells her to fuck off next week he can do the fists in the air!
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Someone else has linked the wiki page for a far longer bridge....
Wouldn't surprise me if the Boris Bridge is far more technically challenging mind you, and I Am Not An Expert but could well be "largest bridge of type X" for quite a painfully wide range of values of "X".
I doubt that bridge will be seriously considered, let alone built. Why invest money in places that offer you few or no votes, and which might sod off in a few years' time?
The cash would, from the point of view of political expediency, best be lavished on England and Wales. Now, a tidal power barrage across the Bristol Channel, with a road running along the top to join Glamorgan and Somerset - that would be a project... 😁
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Good news LAB losers taking it well. Next LAB government 2050 or next time Watford win two premier league games in a row!
In the year 2525 etc 😊😊
The trouble is it's all very fine and dandy saying LOL Labour are going to double down and appoint an even loonier version of Corbyn, that's them unelectable for the foreseeable, but the reality is we are all going to be reduced to SeanT levels of gibbering terror whenever GE time come around thinking Fuck, how confident are we about unelectable?
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Someone else has linked the wiki page for a far longer bridge....
Wouldn't surprise me if the Boris Bridge is far more technically challenging mind you, and I Am Not An Expert but could well be "largest bridge of type X" for quite a painfully wide range of values of "X".
I doubt that bridge will be seriously considered, let alone built. Why invest money in places that offer you few or no votes, and which might sod off in a few years' time?
The cash would, from the point of view of political expediency, best be lavished on England and Wales. Now, a tidal power barrage across the Bristol Channel, with a road running along the top to join Glamorgan and Somerset - that would be a project... 😁
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
The SLD have been wining like fuck about it no one else gives a shit.
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
The Borders? How the fuck does it help the Borders?
It'd be a link from Belfast to Glasgow and Carlisle.
It'll do fuck all for the Borders.
Yes, someone already pointed out my mistake - it was Dumfries and Galloway not the Borders. You'll have to forgive me, I'm very unfamiliar with the location. I've driven to England and back a couple of times but never stopped.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Were're currently struggling with high speed rail, something for which the technology exists and examples can be seen in across the world. But no Boris will fix everything.
You cannot slogan your way out of building the most technologically challenging bridge in the world, in a fucking shipping lane over a giant munitions dump. Run all the Facebook campaigns you want. Plaster it over the Sun and the Mail, it changes nothing. Look at the expected cost over runs of Crossrail, HS2 and the latest super-subsidised nuclear power stations and then honestly say you think Boris, the man of 'the airport on the Thames' can feasibly build a bridge across the Irish sea.
We all know every time Johnson needed a little publicity he'd whip out one of these spaff covered monstrosities and then ignore the backlash like the mother of his last illegitimate child. For the cost of the fucking thing you could run a free ferry service for eternity.
In 2017 someone here suggested May sweeten the deal with the DUP by offering them "a laser big enough to write Fuck the Pope on the moon." Might be a cheaper alternative to the bridge.
It's a mistake to expect defeated Labour members and activists to come to terms with it immediately.
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.
‘Weeks or months’? These are people who make up a large percentage of, and have the same entitled world view as, those who haven’t reached stage 2 of grief over 2016s referendum
I think i saw the new LibDem interim leader (Baroness someone) complaining that the LibDem "revoke" policy was unfairly abridged, and pointing out that the LibDems had been consistent advocates for a "people's vote"... from the day after the referendum result was announced.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
The new Labour leader should accept Brexit but commit to Rejoin ASAP.
And that wins back Northern seats how?
You seem to be assuming that WWC leavers will be as happy with Brexit once it has happened as they are now. They could be but it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Brexit does b*gger all for them and they come to believe that they were conned.
And so the prospect of handing over money to the EU each week is supposed to be attractive?
The money will all be in euros, that'll be the clincher. Who wants to see Charlie on their banknotes?
On a serious note, once we're out the EU becomes a Foreign Land. Once we're out for a bit longer, and as the EU changes, it becomes Even More Foreign Land. This makes the argument to rejoin harder. Even if plenty of us feel European, that might be in a similar sense to how Norwegians and Swiss do, rather than as EUians in Exile.
Switzerland and Norway have very close EU relationships, that I would personally be happy with as a Remainer. So far the Brexit policy of the Tories has been to take us more to a USA-style relationship, i.e. no relationship at all really
Let's scrap HS2 now. Let's use the money to improve existing rail network including new North link and reverse rail closures which LAB made 1964-1970.
Including Dumfries- Stranraer link closed by LAB 1965
I ve always liked HS2 - but since it s getting late I say it should go all the way from London to Aberdeen (via Birmingham etc). It would look ineffient on a map but it makes sense to me
A random O/T thought. How much has the decline in the local press contributed to what we see today, with newspapers/media dominated by 'journalists' who spend most of their time spouting opinions which have very little grounding in real evidence or reality? And particularly has contributed to an almost total failure to understand and analyse the real thoughts of the electorate as a whole.
Where once the background of a huge of journalists was grounded in knowledge of local communities, something people took with them when they moved to the national press (or in many cases never moved) now journalists are almost all entering the media straight out of university and where ability to "make an argument" is recognised, but not to actually make an argument that fits the reality. And where they think nothing of saying one thing in November, and saying completely the opposite in December. Usually without any need to admit that this means that they may have been wrong.
Local press is part of this disconnection with the "real world", but a related issue is the way 24-hour news has generated an apparently insatiable demand for "commentators" and the recent wave of talking heads has been particularly poor. The success of the Corbyn Project within the Labour party rendered a lot of the previous "go-to" Labour-related commentators pretty useless, as their personal ties or experience wonking for New Labour/EdM left them out of tune and largely devoid of insight on the inner workings of the new machine. Their replacements were essentially activists rather than journalists - that's the pool you have to fish to get people who've hung out and cultivated connections with the far-left. The flip side of this is gobby offence-merchants on the Right who make their living spouting controversial views. Need something to make the news channels more "entertaining"/provocative and grab viewing share I guess. @MediaGuido points out the left-wing issue but not the right-wing one!
Labour are fucked for the locals. If the Con managed to convince people to vote for them because Labour aren't investing in the NHS or doing enough about homelessness then Labour are going to get destroyed at the locals.
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Why?
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
In 2017 someone here suggested May sweeten the deal with the DUP by offering them "a laser big enough to write Fuck the Pope on the moon." Might be a cheaper alternative to the bridge.
IMO the bright side of a large majority is I don't have to hear Arlene or Dodds rationalising their latest extortion racket outside of #10.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
I'm not sure which measurement is being used to assert Sturgeon was 'made a bit uncomfortable', and if you think a young candidate with an impressive back story knocking out the leader of an opposition party isn't worth celebrating, perhaps you've never been part of a GE campaign (even at the low level that I've been).
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
In 2017 someone here suggested May sweeten the deal with the DUP by offering them "a laser big enough to write Fuck the Pope on the moon." Might be a cheaper alternative to the bridge.
IMO the bright side of a large majority is I don't have to hear Arlene or Dodds rationalising their latest extortion racket outside of #10.
+1 I should add that to my 'reasons to be cheerful" list.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
Johnson’s going to occupy it
Get Brexit done (TM) then park his tanks firmly on the centre right/soft left.
Moderately high spending socially liberal.
I hope that proves correct. But how will the neoliberals in the Tory party - Rees-Mogg and the like - react?
Yes indeed, how does the pro free market ERG Tory Party now link together with the new Cameronite style Johnson party, when the latter they had comprehensively rejected just a few months ago?
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
Thanks.
It was evidently celebration at Jo's decapitation.
I guess sometime that's going to come back and bite her but who knows.
Right off for some breakfast. The sun is up.
One day the SNP won't be dominant in Scotland. It just might take independence for it to happen!
Wasn't she planning on quitting/retiring as leader early next year, or have I just totally made that up?
As a LD and Plymouth Argyle supporter, I am used to disappointment but I am very optimistic of a LD revival in Devon and Cornwall. 'Horlicks to Brexit!' and 'Revoke Article 50!' went down like a cup of cold sick here as Andrew George, struggling and failing to retake St. Ives, pointedly noted. Michael Heseltine (one time MP for Tavistock) conceded this morning that the 'war is lost and Brexit will happen'. Providing LD HQ are not stupid (not to be discounted) and campaign for an immediate rejoin, we should be able to resume our traditional 'anti-Tory' role in the South West. Layla Moran would be my choice as leader, having no coalition baggage, albeit with a slight worry that her 'chic geeky' style might not be to everyone's taste.
After Brexit, then the organic matter hits the Vent-Axia for Devon and Cornwall. Farmers and fishermen will become uncompetitive, manufacturers in Plymouth will struggle to export and the national economy will go into recession. Infrastructure spending, such as it is, will go to the North and we will be still stuck with a railway line that closes every time there is a high-tide at Dawlish. No branch-lines will reopen, and the A38 between |Exeter and Plymouth will still remain a death-trap. Still, looking on the bright side there might be a few extra low-paid jobs in the tourist industry as 'staycations' become more popular due to the hassle of passport and border controls on the continent.
At the May local elections the Tories lost control of every district council in Devon, bar West Devon and South Hams which just clung on by one councillor each. Tory Devon County Council is approaching Northamptonshire levels of incompetence, so the 2021 election is going to be very interesting.
Labour are fucked for the locals. If the Con managed to convince people to vote for them because Labour aren't investing in the NHS or doing enough about homelessness then Labour are going to get destroyed at the locals.
Not necessarily. If people are feeling badly about having felt obliged to vote Not-Labour in the GE, they may well compensate by turning out in large numbers to vote for their Labour candidate in the locals.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
Thanks.
It was evidently celebration at Jo's decapitation.
I guess sometime that's going to come back and bite her but who knows.
Right off for some breakfast. The sun is up.
One day the SNP won't be dominant in Scotland. It just might take independence for it to happen!
Wasn't she planning on quitting/retiring as leader early next year, or have I just totally made that up?
You've made it up.
Thanks - I thought it sounded weird. Not sure why I thought that.
I would go with 600 + 50 (partly because we already have 600 seat boundaries set up, and also because it wouldn't change the mathematics of majorities meaningfully). I'd also use the FPTP elections as the source of the top up, to avoid the situation in Scotland where the SNP encourages its voters to go Green for the list vote. I'd also simply make the 50 proportional, so it wouldn't seek to compensate for some parties getting too few FPTP seats, it would simply be a case of one seat per 2% share gained. (Or more likely 1.91%)
I think the AM system manages to combine two of the worst aspects of FPTP and PR: safe seats and party lists.
STV is a much better basis to tinker from. You can vote for the platform you want, but don't get railroaded into a particular candidate, and party patronage counts for a lot less.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
The SLD have been wining like fuck about it no one else gives a shit.
I've got an SNP supporting friend who has been very vocally defending Sturgeon on Twitter. He wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't coming under fire. It is at the very least going to be endlessly repeated as an annoying Sturgeon clip on everything. 'More Scottish kids leave school without being able to read than ever before' [Nicola guffaws and punches the air] etc.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
Johnson’s going to occupy it
Get Brexit done (TM) then park his tanks firmly on the centre right/soft left.
Moderately high spending socially liberal.
I hope that proves correct. But how will the neoliberals in the Tory party - Rees-Mogg and the like - react?
Toe the line like the Labour centrists did with Corbyn, I'd imagine.
I guess Johnson's comprehensive victory means the Tory right have no choice. If Boris (sensibly imo) decides to take them down the higher spending / socially liberal path the ERG etc will just have to swallow it - for a while at least.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
Johnson’s going to occupy it
Get Brexit done (TM) then park his tanks firmly on the centre right/soft left.
Moderately high spending socially liberal.
And if/when the next recession comes under his watch, even deeper austerity?
The astonishing thing is that even three years ago this kind of spending would have been ripped to shreds by the current Tory Party.
Whilst correct, to be fair part of the problem with our political debate around economic policy these days is there is little acknowledgement that tax and spend (and borrowing) ratios should adjust over time. It should be perfectly possible to argue consistently that austerity was the right policy for 2010 and the wrong policy now. Just as Keynesianism advocated increasing spending/borrowing during a recession, and paying back during the recovery.
Arguing that taxes should always be lower, or spending should always be higher, is the default position of our political parties and, backed up by ludicrous pledges every Chancellor for 20 years has been constrained (politically) in using the full economic levers at their disposal to run the economy well.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
I'm not sure which measurement is being used to assert Sturgeon was 'made a bit uncomfortable',
Nicola Sturgeon apologises for wildly celebrating SNP win over Jo Swinson
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
Johnson’s going to occupy it
Get Brexit done (TM) then park his tanks firmly on the centre right/soft left.
Moderately high spending socially liberal.
And if/when the next recession comes under his watch, even deeper austerity?
The astonishing thing is that even three years ago this kind of spending would have been ripped to shreds by the current Tory Party.
Whilst correct, to be fair part of the problem with our political debate around economic policy these days is there is little acknowledgement that tax and spend (and borrowing) ratios should adjust over time. It should be perfectly possible to argue consistently that austerity was the right policy for 2010 and the wrong policy now. Just as Keynesianism advocated increasing spending/borrowing during a recession, and paying back during the recovery.
Arguing that taxes should always be lower, or spending should always be higher, is the default position of our political parties and, backed up by ludicrous pledges every Chancellor for 20 years has been constrained (politically) in using the full economic levers at their disposal to run the economy well.
My underlying point is that if/when the next recession hits, the Tories are going to have even more problems than the last Labour Government. It might be Black Wednesday all over again
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Why?
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
I don't wish the Union gone per se, but one has to confront reality. Nearly half the population in Scotland and Northern Ireland has reached a settled opinion that they want to go, and a substantial fraction of them regard the English as colonisers and loathe us for it. That's no basis on which to construct a lasting political settlement.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
I'm not sure which measurement is being used to assert Sturgeon was 'made a bit uncomfortable', and if you think a young candidate with an impressive back story knocking out the leader of an opposition party isn't worth celebrating, perhaps you've never been part of a GE campaign (even at the low level that I've been).
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Were're currently struggling with high speed rail, something for which the technology exists and examples can be seen in across the world. But no Boris will fix everything.
You cannot slogan your way out of building the most technologically challenging bridge in the world, in a fucking shipping lane over a giant munitions dump. Run all the Facebook campaigns you want. Plaster it over the Sun and the Mail, it changes nothing. Look at the expected cost over runs of Crossrail, HS2 and the latest super-subsidised nuclear power stations and then honestly say you think Boris, the man of 'the airport on the Thames' can feasibly build a bridge across the Irish sea.
We all know every time Johnson needed a little publicity he'd whip out one of these spaff covered monstrosities and then ignore the backlash like the mother of his last illegitimate child. For the cost of the fucking thing you could run a free ferry service for eternity.
I don't think the plan is for Boris himself to actually build it. Thanks for your contribution though, there's a dire shortage of verbose, crudely partisan, foul mouthed wankers around here - you're just what we've been looking for.
Someone else has linked the wiki page for a far longer bridge....
Wouldn't surprise me if the Boris Bridge is far more technically challenging mind you, and I Am Not An Expert but could well be "largest bridge of type X" for quite a painfully wide range of values of "X".
I doubt that bridge will be seriously considered, let alone built. Why invest money in places that offer you few or no votes, and which might sod off in a few years' time?
The cash would, from the point of view of political expediency, best be lavished on England and Wales. Now, a tidal power barrage across the Bristol Channel, with a road running along the top to join Glamorgan and Somerset - that would be a project... 😁
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
I reckon the bridge would economically be a white elephant even if physically feasible. Might even be too late for any purported union-saving. I'm not ramping it up as a great idea. Just saying, if you try entering into the mind of Boris, this does feel like the kind of big boy's toy symbolic legacy thing that might just trigger some excitation in his neural pathways. He's talked a lot about the North of England, the Bridge lets him say he's "One Nation" in the Union-wide sense too. Wouldn't be surprised if the plans come out again. Would be surprised if it all gets rubber-stamped and any work starts on it.
It will never get built, he just likes the idea of a "Boris bridge" and talking it up bolsters the current narrative that he gives a shit about the North of England. In the end there will be some expensive feasibility studies and a load of money spaffed up the wall like with the stupid Garden Bridge in London (after he cancelled plans for a genuinely useful crossing in East London, where we continue to suffer from a dearth of crossings and suffer gridlock every time there's an accident in the Blackwall Tunnel).
About that bridge over the Irish sea, it might be good politics and generate lots of jobs to spite both Irish and Scotish nationalists.
An extra bit is power generation, you could use the bridge to generate power from the strong sea current and the wind, that would generate some extra money flow to pay for the construction costs.
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Why?
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
I don't wish the Union gone per se, but one has to confront reality. Nearly half the population in Scotland and Northern Ireland has reached a settled opinion that they want to go, and a substantial fraction of them regard the English as colonisers and loathe us for it. That's no basis on which to construct a lasting political settlement.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
Doesn't this undermine your previous comment? It's only worth spending money on the idea if doing so might actually change minds and reverse the 'inevitability' of their departure?
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Why?
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
I don't wish the Union gone per se, but one has to confront reality. Nearly half the population in Scotland and Northern Ireland has reached a settled opinion that they want to go, and a substantial fraction of them regard the English as colonisers and loathe us for it. That's no basis on which to construct a lasting political settlement.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
God forbid the SNP ever get back to 2015 polling levels, then we really might see some defeatism set in...
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
The SLD have been wining like fuck about it no one else gives a shit.
I've got an SNP supporting friend who has been very vocally defending Sturgeon on Twitter. He wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't coming under fire. It is at the very least going to be endlessly repeated as an annoying Sturgeon clip on everything. 'More Scottish kids leave school without being able to read than ever before' [Nicola guffaws and punches the air] etc.
Yeah, the 'defending someone against bullshit means that someone did bad' is where we're at. I'm applying that to the relentless BJ apologias on here from now on.
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Why?
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
I don't wish the Union gone per se, but one has to confront reality. Nearly half the population in Scotland and Northern Ireland has reached a settled opinion that they want to go, and a substantial fraction of them regard the English as colonisers and loathe us for it. That's no basis on which to construct a lasting political settlement.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
Briskin Says -
Federal States of Britain is the simple and obvious solution.
That's not going to happen though because Scots like their high public service expending at the expense of fellow Brits. It's a little bit canny but it will be South Sudan Mk 2 if they're stupid enough to vote en masse (well over 50pc) to be "an independent country"
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
On the contrary, I am all for engineering experts when it comes to engineering projects, and since this project has already been examined and costed more than once over a period of decades, it is clear that engineering experts more experienced than you, me, or @Ishmael_Z, do not consider the WW2 bombs to be a sufficient blocker to make this a no go.
Any similar expert costing/examination I have ever seen would have a brief section saying BOMBS: They say there's a shitload of bombs down there. I am only an engineer advising on the engineering aspects of the proposal, and I therefore haven't a Scooby about the implications of this. Best ask an expert.
Also, it was only in 2005 the MOD came clean as to the extent of the problem so decades old studies are irrelevant anyway.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
They keep showing it on tv - definitely the election moment - I don t think politicos give a shit, can t speak for the proles
So no one thought it was inappropriate? I have to confess (look away now Scots) that I've never quite got the visceral hatred between SNP and SLD?
She was made a bit uncomfortable about it and had to apologise/claim it was celebrating her 'friend' being elected, not Swinson being defeated.
I'm not sure which measurement is being used to assert Sturgeon was 'made a bit uncomfortable', and if you think a young candidate with an impressive back story knocking out the leader of an opposition party isn't worth celebrating, perhaps you've never been part of a GE campaign (even at the low level that I've been).
My fear with Johnson is that he makes a lot of big pledges on paper that sound good and generate good headlines but they take years to get built (if at all), whilst people continue to suffer with foodbanks and rough sleeping and homelessness get worse.
I really hope I am wrong - but I must say Johnson's history does not inspire confidence.
I'm all for tidal barrages too. But it's worth investing so they don't sod off.
Why?
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
I don't wish the Union gone per se, but one has to confront reality. Nearly half the population in Scotland and Northern Ireland has reached a settled opinion that they want to go, and a substantial fraction of them regard the English as colonisers and loathe us for it. That's no basis on which to construct a lasting political settlement.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
Doesn't this undermine your previous comment? It's only worth spending money on the idea if doing so might actually change minds and reverse the 'inevitability' of their departure?
I think something's gone a bit to pot with the nested comments on this one! The point I've been trying to make is that there is indeed no point in trying to bribe the restive components of the Union into staying put. After all, that was the whole point of the Barnett formula and its predecessors - and they didn't work.
Comments
Where once the background of a huge of journalists was grounded in knowledge of local communities, something people took with them when they moved to the national press (or in many cases never moved) now journalists are almost all entering the media straight out of university and where ability to "make an argument" is recognised, but not to actually make an argument that fits the reality. And where they think nothing of saying one thing in November, and saying completely the opposite in December. Usually without any need to admit that this means that they may have been wrong.
https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1205978208484700161?s=20
I would hope not. And good for her if so.
Your posts on here are far from centrist, and at the same time are highly emotional: your responses dependent upon whether people agree with you or not.
You'd do well to reflect on that.
If they had installed Ken Clarke the country would look very different right now.
And I'd have £1300 in the bank
Good luck.
https://twitter.com/MichaelDugher/status/1205977532006326272
(The fact that I think we're going to end up impoverished doesn't mean we shouldn't all try and make it work)
On your second question, building HS2 from the north is a non-starter. The capacity constraints are into London, so it would just be a white elephant: the trains couldn't decant anywhere.
I genuinely think I'm a pragmatist, what underlines me is getting the Conservative Party out - and I think therefore you can see where I come from with my views.
I genuinely thought Labour could do that with Corbyn and his policies - but I was wrong. Some of them aren't bad in isolation - but it's caught up in the anti-business, anti-media, anti-aspiration, really anti-Britain sphere that makes him so toxic. I am embarrassed I could not see it.
The cash would, from the point of view of political expediency, best be lavished on England and Wales. Now, a tidal power barrage across the Bristol Channel, with a road running along the top to join Glamorgan and Somerset - that would be a project... 😁
And it's only a matter of time before Priti Patel does something unconscionably stupid. Goldsmith is obviously dead in the water already.
In the year 2525 etc 😊😊
You cannot slogan your way out of building the most technologically challenging bridge in the world, in a fucking shipping lane over a giant munitions dump. Run all the Facebook campaigns you want. Plaster it over the Sun and the Mail, it changes nothing. Look at the expected cost over runs of Crossrail, HS2 and the latest super-subsidised nuclear power stations and then honestly say you think Boris, the man of 'the airport on the Thames' can feasibly build a bridge across the Irish sea.
We all know every time Johnson needed a little publicity he'd whip out one of these spaff covered monstrosities and then ignore the backlash like the mother of
his last illegitimate child. For the cost of the fucking thing you could run a free ferry service for eternity.
Thanks.
It was evidently celebration at Jo's decapitation.
I guess sometime that's going to come back and bite her but who knows.
Right off for some breakfast. The sun is up.
Link to a biased pro-PR article, but with useful references of studies examining the large body of evidence for the superiority of consensual systems over winner-take-all systems:
https://www.fairvote.ca/2018/10/24/evidence/
Wasn't she planning on quitting/retiring as leader early next year, or have I just totally made that up?
It'd be a link from Belfast to Glasgow and Carlisle.
It'll do fuck all for the Borders.
Including Dumfries- Stranraer link closed by LAB 1965
Liverpool are a tough place to go.
Get Brexit done (TM) then park his tanks firmly on the centre right/soft left.
Moderately high spending socially liberal.
The astonishing thing is that even three years ago this kind of spending would have been ripped to shreds by the current Tory Party.
Because we belong to the most successful political union in modern history. I've always loved Scotland and coming to live here has been wonderful - it's given me so much. It troubles me that people feel so alienated from Britain, and I hope that one day all of us will feel ownership and pride in every square mile. And even if you're firmly in the Little England camp, if we have no successful formula for uniting the four nations of the UK, do we also wave goodbye to Cornwall? Yorkshire? Where does it stop?
If we're on gracious SLD responses in victory..
https://twitter.com/KAlmsivi/status/1205387070748925954?s=20
https://twitter.com/sblack505/status/1205795928764026881?s=20
After Brexit, then the organic matter hits the Vent-Axia for Devon and Cornwall. Farmers and fishermen will become uncompetitive, manufacturers in Plymouth will struggle to export and the national economy will go into recession. Infrastructure spending, such as it is, will go to the North and we will be still stuck with a railway line that closes every time there is a high-tide at Dawlish. No branch-lines will reopen, and the A38 between |Exeter and Plymouth will still remain a death-trap. Still, looking on the bright side there might be a few extra low-paid jobs in the tourist industry as 'staycations' become more popular due to the hassle of passport and border controls on the continent.
At the May local elections the Tories lost control of every district council in Devon, bar West Devon and South Hams which just clung on by one councillor each. Tory Devon County Council is approaching Northamptonshire levels of incompetence, so the 2021 election is going to be very interesting.
STV is a much better basis to tinker from. You can vote for the platform you want, but don't get railroaded into a particular candidate, and party patronage counts for a lot less.
Arguing that taxes should always be lower, or spending should always be higher, is the default position of our political parties and, backed up by ludicrous pledges every Chancellor for 20 years has been constrained (politically) in using the full economic levers at their disposal to run the economy well.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nicola-sturgeon-apologises-for-wildly-celebrating-snp-win-over-jo-swinson/ar-AAK7qLU?li=BBoPWjQ
More chance of SNP bring listened to 😀
I don't wish the Union gone per se, but one has to confront reality. Nearly half the population in Scotland and Northern Ireland has reached a settled opinion that they want to go, and a substantial fraction of them regard the English as colonisers and loathe us for it. That's no basis on which to construct a lasting political settlement.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
An extra bit is power generation, you could use the bridge to generate power from the strong sea current and the wind, that would generate some extra money flow to pay for the construction costs.
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
God forbid the SNP ever get back to 2015 polling levels, then we really might see some defeatism set in...
A good Government can, over time, deal with the divides that afflict England and has a reasonable chance of keeping England and Wales together, but the rest of the country is gone. It's just a matter of time.
Briskin Says -
Federal States of Britain is the simple and obvious solution.
That's not going to happen though because Scots like their high public service expending at the expense of fellow Brits. It's a little bit canny but it will be South Sudan Mk 2 if they're stupid enough to vote en masse (well over 50pc) to be "an independent country"
Also, it was only in 2005 the MOD came clean as to the extent of the problem so decades old studies are irrelevant anyway.
I really hope I am wrong - but I must say Johnson's history does not inspire confidence.