Can’t really take Ayesha seriously when she was busy palling around with Sarkar, taking selfies with her etc. Ash Sarkar was a communist back then, but Ayesha was still happy to associate with her. Her retweet of Guido also screams ‘people I don’t like’ shouldn’t be given a platform.
Still, someone, indeed everyone who wants some kind of left of centre government before mid century, needs to tell these fools to fuck off and join the SWP where they belong.
That ‘someone’ should be an individual who isn’t a hypocrite though. It should also be someone who was actually involved in an election winning machine. Ayesha talks like she wasn’t an advisor to guy who also lost an election.
What do you mean? She didn't advise Corbyn so has no idea what he was up to or you would expect that someone who talks like she does couldn't possibly have advised Corbyn - too posh, too clever, too centrist?
Corbyn again and again and again. But if Labour wakes up most of these voters seem like they could come back.
On what basis do you think you can magic away Corbyn and momentum then suddenly all these voters will flock back in five, more likely 10 years
Boris will not be sitting back, he will be very pro active in the north and of course Brexit will not feature in 5 years time
It is impossible for anyone to say where the UK will be in 5 years but the idea stale socialism will appeal once Corbyn has gone is for the birds. A new centre left party is needed that takes pride in the country and promotes business and itself
We have one example of this already and Boris has just now parked his tanks on that lawn.
Of course the other example is Nicola Sturgeon but she solely promotes Scotland
It seems likely Labour will waste the next five years by electing a younger Corbyn.
Yes, it's unlikely that the huge number of new members who joined for Corbyn are now going to turn around and say "we were wrong, what Labour needs is a new Blair". The only way you are going to counter that is either get an even huger number of moderates to join the party, or wait until successive failures see the far-left get bored and drift away.
There is always the off chance that, if you wait long enough, the far-left will grow up
I wasn't suggesting that they will grow up, but maybe they will get bored and find another vehicle for the inevitable proletarian revolution.
Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.
You're not really that surprised are you? Lansman's Loonies know that they're right and everyone else is not only wrong but so stupid that they think they're right ha ha ha
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizon
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.
This is what you're up against and they really do control most of the levers of power within the party. Corbyn has destroyed Labour from within and Boris from without.
Can’t really take Ayesha seriously when she was busy palling around with Sarkar, taking selfies with her etc. Ash Sarkar was a communist back then, but Ayesha was still happy to associate with her. Her retweet of Guido also screams ‘people I don’t like’ shouldn’t be given a platform.
Still, someone, indeed everyone who wants some kind of left of centre government before mid century, needs to tell these fools to fuck off and join the SWP where they belong.
That ‘someone’ should be an individual who isn’t a hypocrite though. It should also be someone who was actually involved in an election winning machine. Ayesha talks like she wasn’t an advisor to guy who also lost an election.
What do you mean? She didn't advise Corbyn so has no idea what he was up to or you would expect that someone who talks like she does couldn't possibly have advised Corbyn - too posh, too clever, too centrist?
She was Ed Miliband adviser in 2015.
So she has nothing to do with this loser, just the last one?
Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.
This is what you're up against and they really do control most of the levers of power within the party. Corbyn has destroyed Labour from within and Boris from without.
Labour were the frog in water slowly boiled to death
People told them and told them - now look at where they are
Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizon
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.
I presume you've bet the house on that then. Good odds I presume.
To be fair it's not all of my Labour friends, but it is a couple, and they are the most politically committed (they go on marches and demos). So they are the people who will elect the new leader.
It's grim for Labour.
One of them is a smart artist in her 50s. Very well read. Phd. Etc.
She was convinced that Corbyn would win, even though I spent 20 minutes over drinks, recently, trying to show her the plentiful evidence that he was likely to lose. She just kept shaking her head and saying things like "youthquake".
Now she tells me she is in "shock".
I mean, what can you do?!
Had the same experience. Perfectly nice decent people generally - the sort of generally would be horrified at being associated with Jew baiters - are just in denial about the reality of the polling figures, and the nature of the people who are the praetorian guard of the party. They seem too intelligent to be just 'useful idiots' but that is how they seem. Feels more like fundamentalist religion to me.
Yes, it's religiosity without God. A faith.
The parallels with Leavers are obvious.
And ultra-Remainers like you. Who lose all common sense, become hysterically upset over everything, see evil heretics everywhere, and believe in miracles like the Second Coming, sorry, Referendum.
This “ultra-Remainer” has for a very long time been stating that two things are required before this country can move on: Remainers to accept that they lost and Leavers to accept that Brexit is a shitshow. Remainers are showing signs of their bit. Leavers are showing none of theirs, despite precisely none of the touted benefits of a Leave vote having emerged and many vices having crept out of the woodwork.
I thought the accepted PB description was "diehard Remainer"?
Which - of course - is definitely a Christmas Remainer
Now the election is over, perhaps we can have a serious discussion about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and people on the left can find their consciences that were buried beneath their tribal politics. For those who think it is over egged, here is a round-up.
In Britain, a formal complaint about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party from the Jewish Labour Movement was leaked last week. It makes for some sobering reading. Here are a few of the incidents these Jewish socialists have compiled: In March 2019, a Labour councilor made a joke about “Jew process”; she also rewrote the “First they came for the Jews …” trope to include “they came for the anti-Zionists”; one Jewish Labour member claims that at local Labour Party meetings, he was called “a Tory Jew,” “Zio-scum,” a “child killer,” and told “to shut the fuck up, Jew” and “Hitler was right.” One former Labour councilor was told to “go home and count your money”; one Labour member was told that the Jewish Labour Movement was “financed and controlled by the Israeli government.” Two Labour delegates at the annual party conference in 2018 averred that Jews are “subhuman” and that “they should be grateful we don’t force them to eat bacon at breakfast every day.” These are in reports from Labour Party officials.
In the broader Labour movement, it’s just as bad. In 2016, at the Oxford University Labour Club, Auschwitz was described as “a cash cow.” Online, Jews have been described as “bent-nosed manipulative liars”; there have been claims that Zionists ran the Nazi death camps; and former Labour MP Luciana Berger was subjected to horrifying abuse in 2018, such as “we shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on all of us.” Another Jewish Labour MP, Ruth Smeeth, was called a “yid cunt” and a “fucking traitor.” Margaret Hodge MP has been described on pro-Corbyn Facebook pages as “Zionist bitch,” a “zionist remedial cancer,” “under orders from her paymasters in Israel.” She has received abusively anti-Semitic emails, among which include the following: “Isn’t better [sic] that troublemakers like yourself return to where you and your religion comes from. If you think about it in detail, your are the ones who are racist, by telling us what we must do to please you. We are in our homeland.” And: “Your smear campaign in defense of a racist ethno-state would make Goebbels proud.”
Addressing this must be the first act of a new Labour leader. Keeping the pressure on will show Tories weren't just interested in it as an election issue.
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition
Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.
If they had caused more problems you would not be in this mess
Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.
If they had caused more problems you would not be in this mess
If Labour had been prepared to listen, we would not be in this mess. I regret many of us were too arrogant to do so.
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition
He says in the article Labour will soon have a new leader.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition
He says in the article Labour will soon have a new leader.
But I do agree he should go now.
Yes a Corbynista. As Theresa said 'nothing changes'
When someone says "blah, blah, blah, blah, but we lost and of course i accept my responsibility for that..." you can guarantee that they don't hold themselves responsible at all.
Do they? They want social democratic economics (welfare state etc) but a harder edge on social issues (e.g. crime).
You mean, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime? 🙂
If Johnson has any sense he'll turn the Tories into something resembling New Labour, minus the luvvies, Europhilia and foreign wars. Occupy the centre-left's territory and leave the sensible wing of Labour with nowhere left to go except to join him.
Betting against Boris has worked out not necessarily to his critics' advantage.
This rather underlines my point though, Johnson is very good at winning things - but he's very poor at actually changing anything.
My view of him is that he's only interested in winning, he's not actually interested in changing the country. But we will see.
No, that was Cameron. Boris won't be content without being a great PM.
According to the brainwashed multitude. Yes, he will succeed. And the country will go down the drain.
I wasn't commenting on whether he'll succeed or not - it is a statement on his character. Cameron 'I think I'd be rather good at it' just wanted the bragging rights of getting the top job. Boris' wants to get in because he has grand plans. Whether that thrills or terrifies you, it is clearly a fact. He's not just going to walk around Number 10 soaking up the atmosphere.
Do they? They want social democratic economics (welfare state etc) but a harder edge on social issues (e.g. crime).
You mean, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime? 🙂
If Johnson has any sense he'll turn the Tories into something resembling New Labour, minus the luvvies, Europhilia and foreign wars. Occupy the centre-left's territory and leave the sensible wing of Labour with nowhere left to go except to join him.
I think you'll find social democracy can bridge those elements quite well.
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
Any idea how much that might cost, what sort of toll could be charged?
I was at the confederation bridge connecting Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick in Canada in September. It was opened in 1997 and spans 8 miles and is the Worlds longest bridge over ice covered water.
It cost 1.3 billion Canadian dollars and cost 47.75 dollars (£28) return
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizon
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.
I presume you've bet the house on that then. Good odds I presume.
I think it's well worth a shot. As I say Labour polled 40% under Corbyn 2 years ago. By the next GE the Tories will have been in power 14 years, Corbyn's replacement is unlikely to have the same baggage and many of the seats the Tories gained on Thursday could easily switch back if Brexit hasn't delivered the goods for them.
I didn't vote Labour by the way but disastrous as the result was for them they still polled over 10 million votes to the Tories 13m.
The electorate is fickle and volatile. You clearly can't see anything going right for Labour or anything going wrong for Johnson over the coming years. I can.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.
Corbyn Labour seems to have suffered from many problems and overwhelmingly he is to blame for Labour's failure but I do think those that pushed a second referendum to be Labour's policy on Brexit have something to answer for too.
Many of those on the right of the party should reflect on that, just as much as the left need to reflect on their failures too.
Really the whole party is fucked.
I don't think there is anyway that JC can be blameless, he is the problem, him and his cohorts.
He is totally to blame - but my point is that the right of the party also have caused problems.
By not doing enough to defrock Corbyn?
By nominating him in the first place?
Margaret Beckett and? Can't see any other obvious centrists but I can clearly recognise many of the names as very much on the left of the party. The cancer has obviously been present for some time. There was also much protestation from the right but the genie was out of the bottle
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
It's a mistake to expect defeated Labour members and activists to come to terms with it immediately.
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.
The chimera of Brexit will lead to a lot of disappointment.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
Hold your horses. What we really need to be ready for, as left-liberal internationalists, is facing down fascism in 5 to 10 years, when this "Tories against Thatcherism" has been shown to be utter bollocks. When the betrayal sinks in, those Red Wall Tories are going to be looking for solutions. Someone will be peddling a simplistic fascist one. We'd better have an alternative ready that can get the support of business and at least some of the media.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
When historians look back on this period they will see with crystal clear clarity that Jeremy Corbyn became and stayed leader just long enough to both cause and guarantee Brexit.
What I find really extraordinary is that on September 25th they would almost certainly have succeeded in a VONC with an installation of an alternative PM. Instead they bickered. And lost.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
It's not unpleasant. Nor is it hatred.
It would have given Labour a taste of what the Tories felt in 1997 and 2001, or even 2005, when we were at a similar level, and the psychological blow would have been helpful and cathartic.
You'd have had to draw the same comparisons rather than reference back to 1935 which no-one remembers.
I'm disappointed Labour didn't drop below 200 seats, as per the exit poll.
I really wanted to taste that.
That's a rather unpleasant remark. I don't think grinding down your 'enemy' is what this country needs right now. So go and vent your hatred on something else please.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
I agree with you. At the same time I remember when the Tories were reduced to 165 seats in 1997 and 166 in 2001 a lot of Labour supporters were crowing about it for a long time.
True!
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
I hope to God the PLP nominate some actual decent candidates and keep people like RLB and Burgon off the list - because as much as I hate to say it, the membership clearly are not capable of choosing a winner.
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
Any idea how much that might cost, what sort of toll could be charged?
Quite a lot of detail in this Wiki article. Costs in the region of £20 billion, if we apply the rule of "and you probably need to double the initial estimate when someone's trying to stoke up interest" then it's still not completely infeasible. Certainly the engineering is possible (will mean spending a lot of money cleaning up WW2 munitions!). May not make actual economic sense, but that's a different issue. The symbolism is important here.
Interestingly it's something that the DUP and Sturgeon are in agreement on! And I do wonder if Boris is tempted.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
You're a centrist?
Could have fooled me.
Don't you mean you just wish the centre of public opinion is where you're at?
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Someone else has linked the wiki page for a far longer bridge....
It's a mistake to expect defeated Labour members and activists to come to terms with it immediately.
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.
Interesting point - but if Corbyn hangs around longer, is that going to be "productive reflection time" or is it going to be "scheming, plotting and organising time"?
We were discussing rail earlier. Someone wondered what date you reckoned Crossrail might be up and running by. I wondered what the prospects were for the northern end of HS2 - if Boris is going to go Plus-Quam-George-Osborne with Northern Powerhouse Blue Wall infrastructure spending, is there any realistic way he can (a) build HS2 from north-to-south in parallel with south-to-north rather than the northern end not getting done for decades, and/or (b) build the HS3 Liverpool to Hull in parallel with HS2 rather than afterwards? (Believe this is far from shovel-ready but could work be started before the next election, perhaps?) I wondered what the practical limitations were eg do we simply not have the railway building capacity to take on so much work at once, are the plans insufficiently advanced etc? Wondered if you might be able to clue us up a bit.
I worry about us centrists. The LibDems played a good hand incredibly poorly from c. 6 months ago. We made so many mistakes.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
You're a centrist?
Could have fooled me.
Don't you mean you just wish the centre of public opinion is where you're at?
At some point your bitterness will hopefully evaporate and you will turn your energy to rebuilding this country and helping to bring people together. It's going to be needed because Brexit is going to be a (very) tough project to deliver successfully. That's where your focus should now be.
Yes I am. I just have a few ideas which might appear 'radical' like the public ownership of railways. Something which the majority of us agree with.
There's plenty about the Corbyn agenda that was bonkers.
Labour vote in 2017 was 22,202, 2019 was 15096. Seems conceivable some of those 3518 votes came from Labour (1763 voted UKIP in 2017 so that might be the other half).
But Labour lost 7106 votes, so 7107 - 3518 = 3589, which just about what the Tory vote went up by.
So I think it's fair to say that seat was lost due to a combination of Corbyn and Brexit. Both of these issues need resolving and fast. Phil Wilson said it was down to Corbyn on the doorstep.
It is going to take years. Momentum has to be neutralised and that is not on the horizon
You seem to be forgetting that governments tend to lose elections rather than oppositions winning them. Labour were only 2% behind the Tories 2 years ago even with Corbyn as leader. I am detecting a great deal of hubris behind some of the Tory posters since Thursday and we all know what usually follows.
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.
I presume you've bet the house on that then. Good odds I presume.
I think it's well worth a shot. As I say Labour polled 40% under Corbyn 2 years ago. By the next GE the Tories will have been in power 14 years, Corbyn's replacement is unlikely to have the same baggage and many of the seats the Tories gained on Thursday could easily switch back if Brexit hasn't delivered the goods for them.
I didn't vote Labour by the way but disastrous as the result was for them they still polled over 10 million votes to the Tories 13m.
The electorate is fickle and volatile. You clearly can't see anything going right for Labour or anything going wrong for Johnson over the coming years. I can.
I don't bet on 5 year horizons and I have no clear idea of where we will be next week. I just thought you had expressed your vision so forcibly that perhaps you had a crystal ball and had put your money where your mouth is. Apologies if I misread you.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
Maybe you should read more than the headline. The only person 'deriding' anything was one engineer saying it was 'crazy' to cost something that hadn't yet been designed, and said 'costs always go up'. No shit Sherlock. Nothing whatever about unexploded ordinance. As I said, PR fluff.
It would literally be the longest bridge in the world, the costs would spiral and I suspect it would be deemed unfeasible. But thanks for your condescending tone.
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
I'm not sure that will stop Johnson. He wanted the estuary airport don't forget.
Comments
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/dzls/pusf
You can smooth it by selecting year near the top.
She was always promising to vote for the withdrawal agreement until the last possible moment when she found an excuse not to.
If Labour need a can't make my mind up ditherer she would be perfect..
What Tony Benn would have called a weathercock.
Fucking hell
It is entirely possible that Labour choose an electable leader and Brexit/Johnson don't deliver on their promises over the next five years. In those circumstances I could easily see Labour getting their vote up into the low 40s. Things could look very different indeed come the next GE.
https://twitter.com/gavinshuker/status/1205335750650273799?s=21
"We won the argument, but I regret we didn’t convert that into a majority for change
Jeremy Corbyn"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change
I think it's a great idea. Great for the Borders, which is a much overlooked and beautiful part of Scotland, and great for Northern Ireland.
People told them and told them - now look at where they are
There are good elements in here - but why do I sniff a sense of denial?
Addressing this must be the first act of a new Labour leader. Keeping the pressure on will show Tories weren't just interested in it as an election issue.
Time labour members took drastic action and resigned the whip en masse and formed their own party with their leader. It only takes just over 100 for Corbyn to cease to be leader of the opposition
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/andrew-sullivan-boris-johnsons-winning-formula.html
It is more wide-ranging than the title suggests, with lessons for American politics and an assessment of the new anti-semitism.
Oh just fuck off Jez
How much did Boris give himself as his infrastructure slush fund in the manifesto? Was it 80bn or am I making that up? The bridge would cost 15bn.
I have more sources should you not like these ones
But I do agree he should go now.
Labour are about to go into a internecine war. I suspect, but can't be sure, that the centre ground will win.
However, I'm not at ALL sure that it's correct for the Blairite contingent to be blaming this all on Jeremy Corbyn. It could be argued that a significantly large reason for their defeat is that the party wasn't sufficiently Leave. By dithering around and embracing Remain they alienated the working class northern vote. And they're the ones who lost them the election.
The centre ground must be ready no later than 12 months from now to present an alternative agenda.
So it begins. Cummings mad scheming set to destroy uk government.
If Johnson has any sense he'll turn the Tories into something resembling New Labour, minus the luvvies, Europhilia and foreign wars. Occupy the centre-left's territory and leave the sensible wing of Labour with nowhere left to go except to join him.
hmm.
They are out for years more
Angela Rayner might get union support - which is somewhat surprising.
It cost 1.3 billion Canadian dollars and cost 47.75 dollars (£28) return
I didn't vote Labour by the way but disastrous as the result was for them they still polled over 10 million votes to the Tories 13m.
The electorate is fickle and volatile. You clearly can't see anything going right for Labour or anything going wrong for Johnson over the coming years. I can.
I really wanted to taste that.
And, besides, it meant I won plenty of money
(Looked very dicey with the exit poll so I was rather relieved that Labour crept over the 200)
They need to work through the seven stages of grief first, which could take weeks or months. If they don't they will pick a leader that accords with whatever stage of grief they've reached at the time.
I agree with Heseltine. I think Labour need to be a Leave party and move on with how best to make it work.
All this was inevitable from 24/6/16...
Instead they bickered. And lost.
It would have given Labour a taste of what the Tories felt in 1997 and 2001, or even 2005, when we were at a similar level, and the psychological blow would have been helpful and cathartic.
You'd have had to draw the same comparisons rather than reference back to 1935 which no-one remembers.
I'm out of the country but what has been the response to Nicola Sturgeon's reaction when Jo Swinson lost her seat?
"We've had enough of experts" indeed
Could have fooled me.
Don't you mean you just wish the centre of public opinion is where you're at?
Yes I am. I just have a few ideas which might appear 'radical' like the public ownership of railways. Something which the majority of us agree with.
There's plenty about the Corbyn agenda that was bonkers.