politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make it 6/4 that there’ll be another Brexit referend
Comments
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As it has been for a year. Nothing has changed.Philip_Thompson said:
It's really not that big of an ask if the DUP back a deal. And it seems any deal Boris will agree will realistically be backed by them.Richard_Nabavi said:Jon Worth has posted a useful and succinct Twitter thread on how Boris might get the numbers to pass a deal. He concludes:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183752172737040385
If the DUP object it's a big ask.0 -
They do come down to sea level, you know. Railways and roads. Things have moved on a bit since the 1930s.HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
With the RAF also bombing Spanish food factories, farms etc I doubt itgeoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Probably Corbyn would object - rather than Mcdonnell.kle4 said:
That's an interesting suggestion, as a common complaint is that some truly execrable people get treated as acceptable for some reason because they are marxist - see Stalin flags at rallys - in a way that would rightly cause outrage if it was a fascist being displayed, so if he is saying comparing with those two is ok, is he as you suggest inviting reasonable comparison with horrible people on the other side? I think that probably depends on whether Corbyn or McDonnell would object to being compared to Trostsky or Lenin.justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
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I'd generally agree, and as MorrisDancer suggests it is not in enough peoples' interests to approve a deal, but why do people still suggest there will be any abstentions whatsoever? Who abstains on the biggest constitutional and political question of the generation?Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
Presumably we’re going to bomb the TGV line.Carnyx said:
They do come down to sea level, you know. Railways and roads. Things have moved on a bit since the 1930s.HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
I don't see why he'd object. Corbyn is a man of long-standing principles.justin124 said:
Probably Corbyn would object - rather than Mcdonnell.kle4 said:
That's an interesting suggestion, as a common complaint is that some truly execrable people get treated as acceptable for some reason because they are marxist - see Stalin flags at rallys - in a way that would rightly cause outrage if it was a fascist being displayed, so if he is saying comparing with those two is ok, is he as you suggest inviting reasonable comparison with horrible people on the other side? I think that probably depends on whether Corbyn or McDonnell would object to being compared to Trostsky or Lenin.justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/78174/jeremy-corbyn-called-complete-rehabilitation-leon
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All perfectly reasonable if a deal is getting close. But BoJo says NoGo. Weird.rottenborough said:0 -
I wonder what Bozo will do .rottenborough said:
The EU say we need more time , will he flounce out and say right no deal then even though there was a chance of finalizing it but because of his stupid pledge the brat can’t bear not getting his way .0 -
Heavens.HYUFD said:
With the RAF also bombing Spanish food factories, farms etc I doubt itgeoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
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The RAF would also be bombing Spanish roads and railway tracks too of courseCarnyx said:
They do come down to sea level, you know. Railways and roads. Things have moved on a bit since the 1930s.HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Have I missed the bit in the QS about declaring war on Spain?0
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I was away for a while... how have we gotten to this point please?HYUFD said:
The RAF would also be bombing Spanish roads and railway tracks too of courseCarnyx said:
They do come down to sea level, you know. Railways and roads. Things have moved on a bit since the 1930s.HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.2 -
Would there be any chance you could rustle up a thread header on the UK's planning for an all-out military campaign against Spain as part of necessary no-deal planning? I'm sure it would be a worthwhile exercise in balancing out what some see as the excessively remainy content often seen in these pages and help show the merits of the arguments for leaving.HYUFD said:
With the RAF also bombing Spanish food factories, farms etc I doubt itgeoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.2 -
It's a solution to the problem of people voting for parties other than the Conservatives.nico67 said:There were only 8 allegations of voter ID fraud at the last election .
The new voter ID is a solution looking for a problem .3 -
It was a stupid pledge (if effective in convincing BXP voters he was on their side, which was its intent) given the scenario where it is almost done but needs very small details working out, but one small mitigating point is I would kind of believe him in saying more time is not needed.nico67 said:
I wonder what Bozo will do .rottenborough said:
The EU say we need more time , will he flounce out and say right no deal then even though there was a chance of finalizing it but because of his stupid pledge the brat can’t bear not getting his way .
These things have been discussed to death for a long time, and new proposals seem to be focusing on a few discrete areas, and I don't buy that it is impossible to reach agreement, or work things through to a point where it is clear agreement cannot be reached, on those discrete areas in the time they have remaining. Such things are not beyond the wit or will of the EU.
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Good oneozymandias said:Richard_Nabavi said:
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
No one expects the Spanish intervention.Richard_Nabavi said:
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
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I thought the point of Brexit was to blockade our own ports?HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Well if McDonnell would not consider it an insult it's not really equivalent to comparing Boris to the likes of Heydrich.justin124 said:
Probably Corbyn would object - rather than Mcdonnell.kle4 said:
That's an interesting suggestion, as a common complaint is that some truly execrable people get treated as acceptable for some reason because they are marxist - see Stalin flags at rallys - in a way that would rightly cause outrage if it was a fascist being displayed, so if he is saying comparing with those two is ok, is he as you suggest inviting reasonable comparison with horrible people on the other side? I think that probably depends on whether Corbyn or McDonnell would object to being compared to Trostsky or Lenin.justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
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Only in the event of a Spanish invasion of Gibraltar and refusal to withdrawNoo said:
I was away for a while... how have we gotten to this point please?HYUFD said:
The RAF would also be bombing Spanish roads and railway tracks too of courseCarnyx said:
They do come down to sea level, you know. Railways and roads. Things have moved on a bit since the 1930s.HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
But if it won't cost anything it is not about disenfranchising the poor, they've seen that argument coming. That it is unnecessary and disproportionate seems a better way to go in rejecting the idea than saying it a class issue because of cost, which can be refuted it seems.Recidivist said:
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Thanks for this.oxfordsimon said:
If, as looks likely, we broaden the NI Electoral card system to the rest of the UK - you will not need to fill in a form to get a card in person. You turn up, show you are on the electoral register, hand over your National Insurance number and they do all the work for you.rcs1000 said:
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.Philip_Thompson said:Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Yes - that will take time - but it no more so than getting a library card or a bus pass. And a bus pass with a photograph will mean you don't need any additional ID.
Look at the reality of how the system works in NI and you will see that it does work. It needs a few tweaks - as I have spoken about already - but it does work.0 -
Is that really his name?Recidivist said:1 -
Based entirely on opinionpollsHYUFD said:
If duty calls..I am sure I could direct operations from a bunker somewhereTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.1 -
Do we know how many incidents of voter impersonation there were? Convictions would be only a fraction, though I assume the overall number is still low.Recidivist said:0 -
I suppose worth considering what it will cost the government in that case (verifying photos, printing cards and administering the free ID system isn't going to be particularly cheap) and whether it's a worthwhile use of public funds given the lack of evidence of a problem. On a cost-benefit basis I'd expect measures to reduce postal voting fraud would give a far better return on any measure other than reducing non-Tory votes.kle4 said:
But if it won't cost anything it is not about disenfranchising the poor, they've seen that argument coming. That it is unnecessary and disproportionate seems a better way to go in rejecting the idea than saying it a class issue because of cost, which can be refuted it seems.Recidivist said:0 -
I haven't seen his ID.Luckyguy1983 said:
Is that really his name?Recidivist said:0 -
Given that bus passes (with photo) work for the NI system - and every person over a certain age can get one of them for free - that further undermines his scaremongering.Recidivist said:
It should not be harder to get a bus pass or a library card than it should be to register and to vote.
All electoral systems should be as robust as possible - this is a step towards that.1 -
Most of the ex-Tories voted for May's deal. It is a stretch to say her deal was acceptable but the Johnson deal is not.kle4 said:
I'd generally agree, and as MorrisDancer suggests it is not in enough peoples' interests to approve a deal, but why do people still suggest there will be any abstentions whatsoever? Who abstains on the biggest constitutional and political question of the generation?Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
Therefore does not include Isle of Wight, Lundy, Lindisfarne, Lewis, etc. etc.Anabobazina said:justin124 said:
My country is Great Britain.Carnyx said:
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.Philip_Thompson said:
Our country is the United Kingdom.Theuniondivvie said:
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?Philip_Thompson said:
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?Noo said:Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
That's neither a country nor a nation state.justin124 said:
My country is Great Britain.Carnyx said:
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.Philip_Thompson said:
fishTheuniondivvie said:
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?Philip_Thompson said:
fishNoo said:Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
It's an island.0 -
Ok, DNA test before casting your ballot. That's robust.oxfordsimon said:
Given that bus passes (with photo) work for the NI system - and every person over a certain age can get one of them for free - that further undermines his scaremongering.Recidivist said:
It should not be harder to get a bus pass or a library card than it should be to register and to vote.
All electoral systems should be as robust as possible - this is a step towards that.0 -
He's gone for rhyming slang.Luckyguy1983 said:
Is that really his name?Recidivist said:0 -
Richard_Nabavi said:
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
Tesco control a large part of the agriculture around me on the costa Blanca they have stopped planting now for three weeks.0 -
I thought all goods shipments into Barcelona came via mule over the mountain pass.Carnyx said:
They do come down to sea level, you know. Railways and roads. Things have moved on a bit since the 1930s.HYUFD said:
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
What are the plans if France occupies Sark?0
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Councils already have the infrastructure in place to run a free ID card system - they use it to administer the free bus pass for those over the retirement age.Polruan said:
I suppose worth considering what it will cost the government in that case (verifying photos, printing cards and administering the free ID system isn't going to be particularly cheap) and whether it's a worthwhile use of public funds given the lack of evidence of a problem. On a cost-benefit basis I'd expect measures to reduce postal voting fraud would give a far better return on any measure other than reducing non-Tory votes.kle4 said:
But if it won't cost anything it is not about disenfranchising the poor, they've seen that argument coming. That it is unnecessary and disproportionate seems a better way to go in rejecting the idea than saying it a class issue because of cost, which can be refuted it seems.Recidivist said:0 -
Die in a ditch, according to him.nico67 said:
I wonder what Bozo will do .rottenborough said:
The EU say we need more time , will he flounce out and say right no deal then even though there was a chance of finalizing it but because of his stupid pledge the brat can’t bear not getting his way .0 -
But that's coming at it from the other direction. Cost to benefit is one way to possibly oppose it, but the objection being posed is cost to the individual, not government, which seems to be easily dismissed if (a big if) the government plans are true.Polruan said:
I suppose worth considering what it will cost the government in that case (verifying photos, printing cards and administering the free ID system isn't going to be particularly cheap) and whether it's a worthwhile use of public funds given the lack of evidence of a problem. On a cost-benefit basis I'd expect measures to reduce postal voting fraud would give a far better return on any measure other than reducing non-Tory votes.kle4 said:
But if it won't cost anything it is not about disenfranchising the poor, they've seen that argument coming. That it is unnecessary and disproportionate seems a better way to go in rejecting the idea than saying it a class issue because of cost, which can be refuted it seems.Recidivist said:0 -
We send Nadine Dorries in and they leave.AlastairMeeks said:What are the plans if France occupies Sark?
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Yes, assuming he gets one. It's a figleaf for Labour leavers to continue to say no though but also I just cannot see anyone going neutral, so if someone is really petty or they feel freed by lack of the Tory whip they'd surely switch from yes to no, rather than abstain.Gabs2 said:
Most of the ex-Tories voted for May's deal. It is a stretch to say her deal was acceptable but the Johnson deal is not.kle4 said:
I'd generally agree, and as MorrisDancer suggests it is not in enough peoples' interests to approve a deal, but why do people still suggest there will be any abstentions whatsoever? Who abstains on the biggest constitutional and political question of the generation?Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.
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"The voters of Epping will deliver a landslide for the Conservatives if we annex Ibiza. The invasion starts tomorrow."nichomar said:
Based entirely on opinionpollsHYUFD said:
If duty calls..I am sure I could direct operations from a bunker somewhereTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
Yes, I agree with you. I don't actually believe that it will be implemented in a way that doesn't impose financial cost on individuals (e.g. cost of printing photos, postage, travel to offices to obtain ID) plus time cost. My point was that even if the government genuinely bears all financial cost the scope for objection doesn't fall away, it just moves from it being an objection based on the wealth of those who don't have other ID to an objection based on it being a waste of a fairly large chunk of money.kle4 said:
But that's coming at it from the other direction. Cost to benefit is one way to possibly oppose it, but the objection being posed is cost to the individual, not government, which seems to be easily dismissed if (a big if) the government plans are true.Polruan said:
I suppose worth considering what it will cost the government in that case (verifying photos, printing cards and administering the free ID system isn't going to be particularly cheap) and whether it's a worthwhile use of public funds given the lack of evidence of a problem. On a cost-benefit basis I'd expect measures to reduce postal voting fraud would give a far better return on any measure other than reducing non-Tory votes.kle4 said:
But if it won't cost anything it is not about disenfranchising the poor, they've seen that argument coming. That it is unnecessary and disproportionate seems a better way to go in rejecting the idea than saying it a class issue because of cost, which can be refuted it seems.Recidivist said:0 -
Jacob Rees-Mogg has reportedly hinted that the government could somehow use "European law" to achieve a No Deal Brexit at the end of the month.
Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about?0 -
Mince, Salmond mentioned once about it being a once in a generation opportunity in his opinion, usual unionist garbage.JBriskinindyref2 said:
We heard the "once in a generation" rant one too many times in that famously non-divisive referendum campaign. Sorry, your not getting another one.malcolmg said:
Yet desperate not to allow a democratic vote they insist they will win, says it all.Theuniondivvie said:
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.Noo said:
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
You could try a drink to commiserate if you can afford the fun tax.0 -
That's a reasonable proposal.rcs1000 said:
This worries me. There shouldn't be extraneous hoops that people need to jump through to vote. We need to have the fewest barriers to exercising our democratic rights possible, while also guarding our system against fraud.Philip_Thompson said:Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.
Still, we want to avoid the risk of personation. So, the solution is simple. If you don't have photo ID you can still vote, but you will get your photo snapped. This can be done in a gloriously low tech initially (i.e. a polaroid, a voter's number and a signature from the polling clerk), but could be become more sophisticated in time.
The consequence of this is to remove the "vote tax", but to also effectively stamp our personation.0 -
What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?0
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It gets loonier and loonier on here, must be something in the water down there.Carnyx said:
Good grief!DecrepitJohnL said:
Binkov's battlegrounds is definitive (until @Dura_Ace shows up).HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
UK vs Spain total war
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbeh-PtHZh0
Spain invades Gibraltar
www.youtube.com/watch?v=heNh3t76YAs
Armed forces comparison, UK vs Spain
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAjq5_8gU5w0 -
He's talking bollocks.Chris said:Jacob Rees-Mogg has reportedly hinted that the government could somehow use "European law" to achieve a No Deal Brexit at the end of the month.
Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about?0 -
I deplore the lack of Leaver ambition. Britain should be pre-emptively occupying Heligoland.0
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If reports are to be believed, his proposed deal is considerably harder - and more damaging - than May’s deal was. So that might be a good reason for not voting for such a hard Brexit.Gabs2 said:
Most of the ex-Tories voted for May's deal. It is a stretch to say her deal was acceptable but the Johnson deal is not.kle4 said:
I'd generally agree, and as MorrisDancer suggests it is not in enough peoples' interests to approve a deal, but why do people still suggest there will be any abstentions whatsoever? Who abstains on the biggest constitutional and political question of the generation?Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
Steady on, I need to google where they are first!AlastairMeeks said:I deplore the lack of Leaver ambition. Britain should be pre-emptively occupying Heligoland.
0 -
How many times does Mr Salmond need to intone before we take him seriously?malcolmg said:
Mince, Salmond mentioned once about it being a once in a generation opportunity in his opinion, usual unionist garbage.JBriskinindyref2 said:
We heard the "once in a generation" rant one too many times in that famously non-divisive referendum campaign. Sorry, your not getting another one.malcolmg said:
Yet desperate not to allow a democratic vote they insist they will win, says it all.Theuniondivvie said:
It's a mystery, the likes of HYUFD are insistent that indy would lose again and surely such a second loss (à la Quebec) would kill the issue stone dead.Noo said:
But the question is, why? Why would he want to do that? The Scottish Parliament clearly voted for a referendum. Why wouldn't we grant one?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
You could try a drink to commiserate if you can afford the fun tax.
Is there some secret incantation where he chants things three times before they become so? And are candles and virgins involved?1 -
Painting classes.Yellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
1 -
Strictly taking it back. We swapped it for Zanzibar in about 1890. It’s in the North Sea in the German Bight in the approaches to Hamburg.kle4 said:
Steady on, I need to google where they are first!AlastairMeeks said:I deplore the lack of Leaver ambition. Britain should be pre-emptively occupying Heligoland.
0 -
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
0 -
Who would supply the planes for the aircraft carrier, assuming the leaks are fixed and it is seaworthy nowadays.ozymandias said:
Not quite sure what would be left of Gibraltar after all that 😂TOPPING said:
LOL!!HYUFD said:
First of all Gibraltar has its own defence Force anyway in the form of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment but I would suspect bombing raids launched from the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, missiles launched from British submarines in the Mediterranean, then the SAS and paras sent in to secure key areas and arm the locals for guerrillla warfare house to house, followed by a full scale ground invasion to reoccupy it would do fine.TOPPING said:
How would you see the composition and tactics of a taskforce sent to reclaim Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
You're nothing if not game!0 -
The top export from the Falklands Islands now is not lamb but squid to Spain.geoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Stupid question , who would change his nappiesTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
Brilliant politics.Polruan said:
Yes, I agree with you. I don't actually believe that it will be implemented in a way that doesn't impose financial cost on individuals (e.g. cost of printing photos, postage, travel to offices to obtain ID) plus time cost. My point was that even if the government genuinely bears all financial cost the scope for objection doesn't fall away, it just moves from it being an objection based on the wealth of those who don't have other ID to an objection based on it being a waste of a fairly large chunk of money.kle4 said:
But that's coming at it from the other direction. Cost to benefit is one way to possibly oppose it, but the objection being posed is cost to the individual, not government, which seems to be easily dismissed if (a big if) the government plans are true.Polruan said:
I suppose worth considering what it will cost the government in that case (verifying photos, printing cards and administering the free ID system isn't going to be particularly cheap) and whether it's a worthwhile use of public funds given the lack of evidence of a problem. On a cost-benefit basis I'd expect measures to reduce postal voting fraud would give a far better return on any measure other than reducing non-Tory votes.kle4 said:
But if it won't cost anything it is not about disenfranchising the poor, they've seen that argument coming. That it is unnecessary and disproportionate seems a better way to go in rejecting the idea than saying it a class issue because of cost, which can be refuted it seems.Recidivist said:
Throw in a harmless policy to draw all the ire and anger. Genuine issues become invisible behind the outrage over nothing more than an insignificant free pimple.0 -
They would starve us , no more saladsgeoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Similar to those for a Spanish invasion of Gibraltar but France makes no claim to Sark anywayAlastairMeeks said:What are the plans if France occupies Sark?
0 -
As far as I remember if someone goes into to vote and their right to vote is questioned then they are allowed to vote on a yellow ballot paper which is put in an envelope and never opened unless that vote could have affected the result. As an aside whilst it would be extremely difficult to trace a single vote and voter it is possible. When you vote you get a paper from a numerically sequenced book with the number on both the ballot and the counter foil. Your polling number is written on the counter foil and if it came to a petition you can identify a voter. personation was a problem in NI because the meme was vote early vote often,the only problem there is on the mainland are the abuse of postal votes which are equally open to abuse in care homes and other such environments.Philip_Thompson said:
That's a reasonable proposal.rcs1000 said:
This worries me. There shouldn't be extraneous hoops that people need to jump through to vote. We need to have the fewest barriers to exercising our democratic rights possible, while also guarding our system against fraud.Philip_Thompson said:Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.
Still, we want to avoid the risk of personation. So, the solution is simple. If you don't have photo ID you can still vote, but you will get your photo snapped. This can be done in a gloriously low tech initially (i.e. a polaroid, a voter's number and a signature from the polling clerk), but could be become more sophisticated in time.
The consequence of this is to remove the "vote tax", but to also effectively stamp our personation.0 -
Gordon bloody Bennett.
I never thought Brexit would be sunlit uplands but I didn’t expect it to include war with Spain!0 -
if you were a sailor you would know, they are duty free, great place to stock up before going on to Norway or the Baltic.kle4 said:
Steady on, I need to google where they are first!AlastairMeeks said:I deplore the lack of Leaver ambition. Britain should be pre-emptively occupying Heligoland.
0 -
They can stick it up their Jersey?HYUFD said:
Similar to those for a Spanish invasion of Gibraltar but France makes no claim to Sark anywayAlastairMeeks said:What are the plans if France occupies Sark?
0 -
Bombing the lettuces, tomatoes and other assorted vegetablesHYUFD said:
With the RAF also bombing Spanish food factories, farms etc I doubt itgeoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
0 -
Invasion bight not be a good idea.ralphmalph said:
if you were a sailor you would know, they are duty free, great place to stock up before going on to Norway or the Baltic.kle4 said:
Steady on, I need to google where they are first!AlastairMeeks said:I deplore the lack of Leaver ambition. Britain should be pre-emptively occupying Heligoland.
0 -
Apparently we will if they try to evade our blockade of Spain.Nigelb said:
HYUFD is always looking for a silver lining.ydoethur said:Gordon bloody Bennett.
I never thought Brexit would be sunlit uplands but I didn’t expect it to include war with Spain!
Though he’s not yet promised TSE war with the French.0 -
It has nothing to do with Brexit, even had it been a Remain vote a Spanish attempted invasion of Gibraltar would have led the UK to declare war on Spain in responseydoethur said:Gordon bloody Bennett.
I never thought Brexit would be sunlit uplands but I didn’t expect it to include war with Spain!0 -
Sticking to his area of expertise, then.Richard_Nabavi said:
He's talking bollocks.Chris said:Jacob Rees-Mogg has reportedly hinted that the government could somehow use "European law" to achieve a No Deal Brexit at the end of the month.
Does anyone have any idea what he is talking about?0 -
Who knows ?nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
In his case, it’s quite difficult to separate the serious from the satirical.0 -
That’s a bit too close to my bar for God’s sake but at least the Spanish can put up their euro fighters seven days a week which apparently the RAF can’t. I have four stationed two miles away so not too worried. I think Malcom’s turnips are more dangerous. As another aside the Thomas Cook collapse is causing serious problems with the tourist industry with hotels already closing and a very bleak future outlook.malcolmg said:
Bombing the lettuces, tomatoes and other assorted vegetablesHYUFD said:
With the RAF also bombing Spanish food factories, farms etc I doubt itgeoffw said:
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
There seems to be a total shutdown in Barcelona's airport and pro-independence movement is mobilized all around Catalonia in response to political verdicts1
-
Just a thought will the government try the trick of not providing tellers for certain votes .
Thinking back , the Kinnock amendment passed because no tellers were provided in the no lobby .
Would the government try this with a vote on no deal . Nothing would surprise me , not sure what Bercow could do on this front .
Of course if they did this there would be huge outrage , and more likely a VONC would follow but then they could also cheat that aswell .
0 -
Spain wont invade Gibraltar. Who came up with that one?HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
That’s a Hermeneutic question.ydoethur said:
They can stick it up their Jersey?HYUFD said:
Similar to those for a Spanish invasion of Gibraltar but France makes no claim to Sark anywayAlastairMeeks said:What are the plans if France occupies Sark?
0 -
Get some professional help.HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
1 -
Himselfnichomar said:
Spain wont invade Gibraltar. Who came up with that one?HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
What if Ireland claims County Antrim after a six-county vote for unification? Do we go to war with Ireland to defend your statelet?HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
He will say yes so why ask the question?williamglenn said:
What if Ireland claims County Antrim after a six-county vote for unification? Do we go to war with Ireland to defend your statelet?HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
malcolmg said:
Himselfnichomar said:
Spain wont invade Gibraltar. Who came up with that one?HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended
Oh... well it’s marginally amusing but given he is ‘so close’ to the levers of power I should be marginally worried. I could turn my swimming pool into an Anderson shelter I suppose.0 -
@HYUFD should consider UKIP as an option:
https://twitter.com/gerardbattenuk/status/1183671739038855168?s=210 -
No more drugs for HYUFD!HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
As far as Spain goes I should know better but 1 were the convictions for sedition purely based on an illegal referendum and associated costs, or is there more to it?
2 is the Supreme Court in Spain politically controlled or free of the executive? I’ve looked at RTVE but it’s beyond my Spanish.0 -
Interesting, I'd identified the "best" decades for parties in a previous thread, though I'd omitted UKIP.AlastairMeeks said:@HYUFD should consider UKIP as an option:
https://twitter.com/gerardbattenuk/status/1183671739038855168?s=210 -
War of Andrea Jenkyns' Ear?ydoethur said:Gordon bloody Bennett.
I never thought Brexit would be sunlit uplands but I didn’t expect it to include war with Spain!0 -
There was no declaration of war during the Falklands conflict.HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0 -
Rahman?Recidivist said:
It's a solution to the problem of people voting for parties other than the Conservatives.nico67 said:There were only 8 allegations of voter ID fraud at the last election .
The new voter ID is a solution looking for a problem .0 -
Let them keep the BarclaysAlastairMeeks said:What are the plans if France occupies Sark?
(Anyway it’s part of the Duke of Normandy’s territory so it’s up to her)0 -
Alternatively, he needs a double dose?Sunil_Prasannan said:
No more drugs for HYUFD!HYUFD said:
No I am serious.nichomar said:
Come on having a laugh is one thing and I’m sure you are so wind back before you destroy your reputation for at least having a Tory positive view on polls by appearing completley and utterly bonkers. I assume your having a laugh?HYUFD said:
Waiting for Spain to leave Gibraltar and not taking any action against the UK, a country with nuclear weaponsYellow_Submarine said:What are the rest of NATO, the EU and the Hispanosphere doing while the RAF is bombing Guernica ?
A Spanish invasion of Gibraltar would require a UK declaration of war on Spain exactly as we went to war with Argentina when they invaded the Falklands.
UK sovereign territory must be defended0
