politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make it 6/4 that there’ll be another Brexit referend
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No I mean sovereign country which has a definition under international law and what the UK is and what Scotland would have been had it voted for independence. Which is why it was the question.Anabobazina said:Philip_Thompson said:
Our country is the United Kingdom.Theuniondivvie said:
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?Philip_Thompson said:
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?Noo said:Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
Funny, it's not in rugby, football, golf, cricket, the legal system, healthcare, education, the list goes on.
I think you are confusing 'country' with 'nation state'.
Why would the referendum ask "Should Scotland be an independent country?" if it already was one. Scotland is a country within a country but under international law our country is the United Kingdom.0 -
I think you would end up with the modern equivalent of the Lines of Torres Vedras - only not so successful (imagine what Napoleon's generals could do with a battery of MLRS against a fixed fortified position).HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
nova said:
Very true - Royal Mail don't insist on photo ID.malcolmg said:
Well if you look about 90 I doubt you will be asked for ID for alcohol.Gabs2 said:Apologies if this reveals my metropolitan elite bubble, but how do people without photo ID buy alcohol when their age is questioned or pick up undelivered parcels? I genuinely want to know the answer.
Given Royal Mail take bank cards , perhaps they accept utility bills.
There are still a lot of people who don't have parcels to collect either - maybe just a few percent, but that adds up to millions of people.
Last time I tried to pick up a bloody parcel from Royal Mail they actually REFUSED to accept my driving licence. They insisted on the bloody red card which I had left at home. Maybe they have now changed that deranged policy.0 -
I do know. My answer was United Kingdom.Theuniondivvie said:
So you don't know. Fair enough.Philip_Thompson said:
Our country is the United Kingdom.Theuniondivvie said:
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?Philip_Thompson said:
Perhaps because its one of our countries natural resources?Noo said:Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
Do other countries give away their natural resources to other nations free of charge? If there's an oil field in Spain can anyone who wants to from any firm from any country choose to rock up and take that resource away? Or are the nations other natural resources resolved by the country?
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.0 -
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.1 -
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
I wouldn't get too excited. It's not as if the bill is going to pass the current parliament.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.0 -
Work ID, sure. A pass to get into a building. But ID to do normal stuff - no. And when I don’t go into an office regularly - which is most of the time - I need no ID at all.TOPPING said:
Surprising. Many City offices require (very irritatingly) ID.Cyclefree said:NickPalmer said:
It's in any case tunnel vision to think that "people use ID for everything else". I know several people who have no photo ID who don't want to get one (too expensive, too much trouble, too stressed to cope with applying, etc.) - people on the margins of society for reasons of health or other factors are often simply disorganised in a way that orderly people can't imagine. They get by as best they can, and we shouldn't punish them by disenfranchising them. If we want to change that, we should have ID cards, free to everyone, like most of the world.AlastairMeeks said:
The rational argument against is simple. If we want to encourage people to vote, we should be making it as easy as possible.Nigel_Foremain said:
I cannot think of any rational argument against having voters ID properly checked. People use ID for everything else. If they wish to participate then they should provide proper ID. I would also like to see scrapping of postal votes except in very exceptional circumstances. And any more referenda on complex issues should require an IQ certificate (only kidding on the last one...well, maybe!)AlastairMeeks said:
It's a solution in search of a problem. It will result in far more people being prevented from voting than the cases of voter fraud that currently exist. The only sensible inference is that it is being introduced for political advantage.
There is no evidence of any substantial voter fraud. Introducing new methods of voter identification will reduce the numbers of voters. This will affect some groups disproportionately.
If there was evidence of substantial voter fraud, the answer would be different. But there isn't.
Other than getting on a plane I can’t think the last time I had to use ID for anything at all.
And in any case I don’t have to prove my identity at all. Just hand over a business card and they give me a pass. I could announce my name as Meghan Markle and they’d hand over a pass.0 -
Well done and thank you.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
If the Queen's speech is voted down, BoZo won't resign, apparently0
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He could always borrow Mark Francois' tin hat.TOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.Carnyx said:
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.dyedwoolie said:
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Said ships now have said planes.0 -
In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.0
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It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.0 -
They might be forced to eat British expat, if it wasn't for that long border with France...HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
Is HYUFD really Private Francois in cunning disguise ?0
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No - you are wrong in that.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden0 -
What role do you see HY playing for the Royal Navy in such a conflict?TOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
Course not, why should he?Scott_P said:If the Queen's speech is voted down, BoZo won't resign, apparently
If the opposition want him out they should vote for a General Election.0 -
Well first he would need to get his tricorn hat refurbished then really I don't see any limit to what he could achieve.Anabobazina said:
What role do you see HY playing for the Royal Navy in such a conflict?TOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
The problem of attacking the Spanish base at Rota nrl Cadiz is that it is the European base for the US Navy.TGOHF2 said:
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.Carnyx said:
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.dyedwoolie said:
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be g.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Said ships now have said planes.0 -
I love how HYUFD always has a comprehensive answer.
Winds up his adoring fans even more.2 -
Trigger warning for those of a sensitive disposition...
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/465684-trump-calls-for-votes-for-spicer-on-dancing-with-the-stars
I'm reaching for the disinfectant eyedrops.0 -
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
England is but a combination of Wessex, Mercia, Anglia , Northumbria , Cornwall etc - a range of ancestries .Anglia has a great deal of Scandinavian heritage.Anabobazina said:justin124 said:
My country is Great Britain.Carnyx said:
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.Philip_Thompson said:
Our country is the United Kingdom.Theuniondivvie said:
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?Philip_Thompson said:Noo said:Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
I would like my country to be England, but it is not. You and I would like your country to be Scotland, but it is not. On an international scale our country is the United Kingdom whatever semantics you may deploy.
In the Scottish referendum the question asked was "Should Scotland be an independent country?" to which the voters of Scotland unfortunately voted No, so Scotland by definition is not an independent country nor is England.
That's neither a country nor a nation state.justin124 said:
My country is Great Britain.Carnyx said:
Your country is England, mine Scotland. We live in a supranational state - by definition: vide Ireland and the GFA.Philip_Thompson said:
fishTheuniondivvie said:
Are you wearing your English nationalist hat or your British nationalist hat when you say our country's resources? Do you even know?Philip_Thompson said:
fishNoo said:Oh god. Fish. Again.
Does everyone on here really give a flying fuck about national fishing grounds? If you told me Spanish trawlers can fish off the coast of Aberdeenshire, and Scottish ones can fish in Galician waters, am I meant to care about this? Serious question, I've no idea why everyone gets so animated about this issue.
It's an island.0 -
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.Philip_Thompson said:
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-2006
0 -
Er, no. QE hasn't had the ops trials for the F-35Bs yet (fide MoD (RN)) and PoW hasn't even got to Pompey yet to finish her sea trials yet, has she, never mind embark her aviastion wing?TGOHF2 said:
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.Carnyx said:
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.dyedwoolie said:
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Said ships now have said planes.0 -
A mere detail.Foxy said:
The problem of attacking the Spanish base at Rota nrl Cadiz is that it is the European base for the US Navy.TGOHF2 said:
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.Carnyx said:
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.dyedwoolie said:
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be g.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Said ships now have said planes.0 -
If duty calls..I am sure I could direct operations from a bunker somewhereTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
And let's not forget the new Cod War.Theuniondivvie said:
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
Which is mostly the PyreneesFoxy said:
They might be forced to eat British expat, if it wasn't for that long border with France...HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
Excellent comment.Cyclefree said:
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.Philip_Thompson said:
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
You are certainly one of PB's heroes and the place would be much duller and less informed without you.HYUFD said:
If duty calls..I am sure I could direct operations from a bunker somewhereTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
0 -
TOPPING said:
Well first he would need to get his tricorn hat refurbished then really I don't see any limit to what he could achieve.Anabobazina said:
What role do you see HY playing for the Royal Navy in such a conflict?TOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres. 0 -
So if you are already on the electoral register you don’t need a card or do you?oxfordsimon said:
No - you are wrong in that.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden0 -
They love it...Luckyguy1983 said:I love how HYUFD always has a comprehensive answer.
Winds up his adoring fans even more.2 -
easy, we tell Trump Cadiz is part of KurdistanNigelb said:
A mere detail.Foxy said:
The problem of attacking the Spanish base at Rota nrl Cadiz is that it is the European base for the US Navy.TGOHF2 said:
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.Carnyx said:
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.dyedwoolie said:
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be g.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
Said ships now have said planes.0 -
"And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection.. "
I think most of us have priced that one in. Nationalists be Nationalists.0 -
Seems like we'd be in for a bit of a battering.Carnyx said:
And let's not forget the new Cod War.Theuniondivvie said:
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
In all seriousness, though, the UK-Spain relationship will not be the same post Brexit, though we will have to see what happens.HYUFD said:
They love it...Luckyguy1983 said:I love how HYUFD always has a comprehensive answer.
Winds up his adoring fans even more.0 -
The UK military is bigger than the Spanish and Irish militaries combined (not that Ireland is going to invade County Antrim anyway), Spain would be having a Catalan insurrection tooTheuniondivvie said:
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
In a normal political environment yes..this is not a normal political environment.GIN1138 said:
Well that's right, FTPA says he doesn't have to.Scott_P said:If the Queen's speech is voted down, BoZo won't resign, apparently
But I imagine a general election would have to follow very rapidly after QS is voted down.0 -
This really isn't difficult to understand. You need a card only if you don't have one of the other forms of approved ID. And as long as the photo still looks like you, the ID doesn't have to be currently valid. So you can use an expired one - without having to apply for a new card.Cyclefree said:
So if you are already on the electoral register you don’t need a card or do you?oxfordsimon said:
No - you are wrong in that.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden0 -
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.Cyclefree said:
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.Philip_Thompson said:
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
the Cod War will be followed by the Cod PeaceCarnyx said:
And let's not forget the new Cod War.Theuniondivvie said:
But the UK may also be starving Ireland into submission while keeping your beloved Loyalist enclaves supplied. Never fight a war on two fronts as another right wing fantasist might ruefully tell you. And then we have to consider the Scottish insurrection..HYUFD said:
We starve them into submission, with a No fly zone enforced by the airforce over Spain while we drop supplies into Gibraltar and a complete blockade of all Spanish ports by the Royal NavyCarnyx said:
But if they just shut the door, or concrete it over? Go all passive aggressive?HYUFD said:
First of all we would be the ones defending Gibraltar with the support of the local population.Carnyx said:
You do know -HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
1. There is such a thing as being able to lock the door at Las Lineas and throw away the key?
2. Therew is such a thing as a three to one rule of thumb for attack vs. defence?
Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too0 -
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
Keep up, one of said ships does, but 'Queen Elizabeth is expected to reach initial operational capability by 2020', other said ship does not and will 'be fully ready for front-line duties around the globe from 2023'. PB chickenhawks should be on top of this stuff.TGOHF2 said:
Aircraft carriers without planes used to be a hot topic on PB.Carnyx said:
Not as if the Argies already had frontier post right next to the runway at Port Stanley even before their marines turned up.dyedwoolie said:
Military size fairly irrelevant, theres not much room in Gib to host a large army, invading or defensive. Naval power would be decisive, and strategic air deployment. In the incredibly tiny chance of a Spanish invasion Britain would very easily recapture it, although the political and human costs would be astronomical.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
The Falklands, as an example elsewhere are much safer now than in 1982 with RAF Mount Pleasant and embedded personnel and a far weaker Argentinian military, however it would be much more difficult to engage a task force to recapture. Just about doable once the carriers are up and running.
Said ships now have said planes.0 -
I tryTOPPING said:
You are certainly one of PB's heroes and the place would be much duller and less informed without you.HYUFD said:
If duty calls..I am sure I could direct operations from a bunker somewhereTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.0 -
Still doesn’t explain why there are no proposals to address a very real problem. Curious that.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.Cyclefree said:
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.Philip_Thompson said:
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invadersAndrew said:
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.0 -
You are certainly very trying at times.HYUFD said:
I tryTOPPING said:
You are certainly one of PB's heroes and the place would be much duller and less informed without you.HYUFD said:
If duty calls..I am sure I could direct operations from a bunker somewhereTOPPING said:
You are a very funny guy but I have one question. In such a conflict would you enlist?HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from ArgentinaAndrew said:HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
All of which is rather overwhelmed by one key statistic, distance from nearest land border...
Spain 0 metres, UK 1.6 million metres.
0 -
Thanks.oxfordsimon said:
This really isn't difficult to understand. You need a card only if you don't have one of the other forms of approved ID. And as long as the photo still looks like you, the ID doesn't have to be currently valid. So you can use an expired one - without having to apply for a new card.Cyclefree said:
So if you are already on the electoral register you don’t need a card or do you?oxfordsimon said:
No - you are wrong in that.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
To get a card in person, you only have to turn up with some proof of identity that confirms you are who you say you are if you are not already on the electoral register. All you need is your National Insurance number. They even take the photo for you - for nothing.
You only need a form signed by councillor or other elected official if you are applying by post.
The element I don't like in the NI system is restricting the approved list of people who can sign to confirm your ID for an postal application to elected officials. I would rather than was more along the lines of the list of people who can sign a passport form confirming the same thing - that the photo is you.
This really isn't a burden0 -
They might hold out quite long, though, given that they've got mountains of Serrano ham maturing, and more than one pig per head of population to replenish the hams.HYUFD said:
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invadersAndrew said:
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.0 -
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
Sorry, I forgot that. My apologies.justin124 said:
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-2006
We are in perfect agreement! Well, nearly perfect,,0 -
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?justin124 said:
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
From the Guardian-
'David Howarth, a Cambridge law professor and former Lib Dem MP, has been in touch to say losing a vote on the Queen’s speech does have at least one practical effect. He explains:
You might be interested to know that there would be a practical consequence for the government of losing the motion on the address completely (as opposed to losing on an amendment to it).
Standing order 51 says that the government can’t move a ways and means resolution without notice unless the address has been agreed to. What this means is that if the government fails to get the address through the house, it can’t bring in emergency tax changes, e.g. to beat avoidance schemes, without letting the world know first, which might be very inconvenient in current circumstances.
Perhaps more important, that standing order could be amended by the house to say that the government can’t bring in a budget at all until the address has been passed, something it might do if Boris Johnson loses a vote on the Queen’s speech and then refuses to follow the convention that prime ministers defeated on the Queen’s speech should resign.'
0 -
Of course! We’ll recapture Gibraltar from those dastardly Spaniards by nuking it.HYUFD said:
UK active military personnel 150 000, Spanish active military personnel 121 000Carnyx said:
You might not want to check out the figures for armu and air force personnel. Not much of an advatage there, even before allowing for logistics.HYUFD said:
The UK has a bigger and more powerful military than Spain, so Spain will not be invading Gibraltar any time soonCarnyx said:
Gibraltar?HYUFD said:
Yes, in that sense Boris can happily play Spain off against the SNP and ignore SturgeonBurgessian said:
The SNP, by backing the Catalans, have already poisoned their relationship with the Spanish - who will royally screw them if an independent Scotland ever came knocking at the EU's door seeking entry. Fishing rights would only be the start.HYUFD said:WingsoverScotland turning against the EU this afternoon after it fails to stand up for the jailed Catalan nationalists against the Spanish government.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/faith-is-always-blind/
If the SNP then follow suit and back the Catalans against Spain, the EU and Spanish government will then have no complaint when Boris blocks indyref2 and will show no enthusiasm for an Independent Scotland joining the EU either
UK aircraft carriers 2, Spanish aircraft carriers 1
UK nuclear submarines 12, Spanish nuclear submarines 0
UK military aircraft 811, Spanish military aircraft 522
I guess it’s a strategy consistent with No Deal...
0 -
Do two wrongs make a right?Cyclefree said:
Still doesn’t explain why there are no proposals to address a very real problem. Curious that.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.Cyclefree said:
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.Philip_Thompson said:
It works in NI and our electoral process needs to be protected especially when independent judicial inquiries have compared it to that of a banana republic. Considering this works this way across almost the entire continent and for decades in part of our country, the objections are the ones that strike me as searching for a problem.Cyclefree said:
There are 11 items listed on there that can be used. I have only 1 of them. If I didn’t have a passport I would only be able to vote if I get a form filled in by my local councillor and turn up at my local council to get a card.Philip_Thompson said:
A quick Google Search got this link: https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/Electoral-Identity-Card-FAQsCyclefree said:
And precisely what is this identity document?oxfordsimon said:
It is exactly the system that has been used in NI for more then 30 years. It works.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?
Lots of posts saying that it has been used before in NI. So should be easy for you to tell me precisely what would I get from my local council and how would I prove my identity to them.
The government has not made a case for imposing this burden on the rest of the country. Strikes me as a solution in search of a problem and, were I cynical, an attempt to suppress voting among non-Tory voters.
Its good enough for NI, its good enough for almost all of Europe, but not us.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.TOPPING said:
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?justin124 said:
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
This worries me. There shouldn't be extraneous hoops that people need to jump through to vote. We need to have the fewest barriers to exercising our democratic rights possible, while also guarding our system against fraud.Philip_Thompson said:Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.
Still, we want to avoid the risk of personation. So, the solution is simple. If you don't have photo ID you can still vote, but you will get your photo snapped. This can be done in a gloriously low tech initially (i.e. a polaroid, a voter's number and a signature from the polling clerk), but could be become more sophisticated in time.
The consequence of this is to remove the "vote tax", but to also effectively stamp our personation.0 -
Postal voting is generally believed to help the Conservatives, presumably because elderly people lean that way. Ask any activist about "granny farming". Labour made it easier for anyone at all to vote by post, which ironically also probably helped the Tories more because richer voters take longer holidays.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.Cyclefree said:
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
So you're planning to go to war with France too?HYUFD said:
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invadersAndrew said:
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.0 -
Jon Worth has posted a useful and succinct Twitter thread on how Boris might get the numbers to pass a deal. He concludes:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183752172737040385
0 -
I believe the Tory advantage in postal voting has been greatly reduced since it became more readily available.DecrepitJohnL said:
Postal voting is generally believed to help the Conservatives, presumably because elderly people lean that way. Ask any activist about "granny farming". Labour made it easier for anyone at all to vote by post, which ironically also probably helped the Tories more because richer voters take longer holidays.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes I think it would be cynical. Easy postal voting was introduced by Labour to hurt the Tories.Cyclefree said:
I have already pointed out to you - though you have ignored this - that the problems we do have with electoral fraud relate largely to postal voting and coercive control style behaviour in some communities (read the Tower Hamlets judgment, for instance) which these proposals do nothing to address.
Would it be cynical to wonder that that is because so many postal votes are used by Tory voters?0 -
Still holding out! Good luck!justin124 said:
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.TOPPING said:
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?justin124 said:
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
Violence and Leavers seem to go together like strawberries and cream.williamglenn said:
So you're planning to go to war with France too?HYUFD said:
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invadersAndrew said:
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.
Of course, farmers are complaining again that the strawberries are unpicked due to lack of European labour. Nobody wants to come to xenophobic, Brexit-loving Britain.0 -
I am not at all sure there are even problems in a tiny number of areas. I can't even devise a way to defraud the vote if I wanted to.AndyJS said:I've always quite liked the fact that you can vote in this country without any form of identification whatsoever, because it shows how honest most people are and how there's a high level of trust between people. It would be kind of depressing if we have to resort to ID checks like every other country just because of problems in a tiny number of areas.
0 -
I would not mind neo-Thatcherite rule. At least she was competent, honest and had ability. You might not have liked her, but at least you could respect her.justin124 said:
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.TOPPING said:
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?justin124 said:
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-2006
Compared to the current dishonest, talentless, incompetent shower....0 -
If, as looks likely, we broaden the NI Electoral card system to the rest of the UK - you will not need to fill in a form to get a card in person. You turn up, show you are on the electoral register, hand over your National Insurance number and they do all the work for you.rcs1000 said:
Taking up the issue of ID at polling booths, this is implicitly a tax on people who don't have ID. It's a tax because if you don't have a driving license (young, urban people) or a passport (older or poorer folk), then you will need to spend time filling out forms and gathering documents. That is time you could have spent working or enjoying yourself or reading. Just because it's opportunity cost, doesn't make the cost any less real.Philip_Thompson said:Why would anyone able to and bothered to register vote not be able to or bothered to get the necessary ID?
Yes - that will take time - but it no more so than getting a library card or a bus pass. And a bus pass with a photograph will mean you don't need any additional ID.
Look at the reality of how the system works in NI and you will see that it does work. It needs a few tweaks - as I have spoken about already - but it does work.
1 -
And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.
0 -
There’s no evidence of any large amount of voter fraud in the UK.
The Tory policy is just an attempt to increase their election chances . Let’s be honest would they be putting this policy forward if it harmed their chances .
The facts speak for themselves , those more likely to be disenfranchised are all within demographics that are less likely to vote Tory.
The attempts to deflect from this by some who point out the Labour change to postal voting miss two key things.
That policy was to get more people voting not less and older people are more likely to make use of that which doesn’t help Labour .
0 -
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Even assuming a deal is reached, which is not at all a safe assumption.Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
Nothing to worry about, just a prick:
https://twitter.com/10downingstreet/status/1183777183149547525?s=210 -
Have you actually researched the NI experience of moving to a photo ID for voting system?nico67 said:There’s no evidence of any large amount of voter fraud in the UK.
The Tory policy is just an attempt to increase their election chances . Let’s be honest would they be putting this policy forward if it harmed their chances .
The facts speak for themselves , those more likely to be disenfranchised are all within demographics that are less likely to vote Tory.
The attempts to deflect from this by some who point out the Labour change to postal voting miss two key things.
That policy was to get more people voting not less and older people are more likely to make use of that which doesn’t help Labour .
Can you show me the evidence that this has created the sort of widespread disenfranchisement that you are claiming will happen if that system were applied to the rest of the UK? You can't - because it doesn't exist.
That system has been working in NI for more than 30 years.
I want a voter registration system that is as robust as possible. Those people entitled to vote should be the only ones allowed to vote.
Yes, we need major reform of the postal vote system - that is beyond question.0 -
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
Yes, indeed, especially in the timescale Boris has arbitrarily set for himself.Cyclefree said:
Even assuming a deal is reached, which is not at all a safe assumption.Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
Mr. Nabavi, aye.
Plus, party politics make it advantageous for pretty much everybody except the Conservatives for any deal to be thwarted.
Anyway, I must be off. Play nicely, everyone.0 -
If the DUP are opposed I don’t think it will be that close.Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
And this is the 21st century.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
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If a deal is actually agreed and Parliament rejects it because it's not the deal they (i.e. the serried ranks of anti-no-dealers from all parties) want, why would the EU offer any extension?0
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Richard_Nabavi said:
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
No one expects the Spanish intervention.Richard_Nabavi said:
Blockading a country which is a big supplier of food to the UK would have the advantage that it's not an attack they'd be preparing against.rcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
It's really not that big of an ask if the DUP back a deal. And it seems any deal Boris will agree will realistically be backed by them.Richard_Nabavi said:Jon Worth has posted a useful and succinct Twitter thread on how Boris might get the numbers to pass a deal. He concludes:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183752172737040385
If the DUP object it's a big ask.0 -
That may well be the case, and I am instinctively against this plan as disproportionate to the problems it is meant to tackle. However, if they do intend a solution which will not cost individuals, then it will be the case that one common objection will fall away. I'd still be generally opposed to it, but if someone's objection is cost related then countering that is a smart move politically.Cyclefree said:Morris_Dancer said:
And what might this “local electoral identity document” consist of?
I have never had any such thing from my local council. So is this something new? What?
Or is it just some words plucked out of Boris’s arse when they were cobbling together the collection of rubbish soundbites and meaningless promises that HMQ had to read out?0 -
I'm not sure, the ERGers seem to have put a lot faith in Boris and they've also somewhat hoist themselves on the petard of losing the whip if they rebel. Perhaps more likely is that it won't be put to a vote if the DUP aren't on board.AlastairMeeks said:
If the DUP are opposed I don’t think it will be that close.Richard_Nabavi said:And in response to a question as to what he thinks is most likely to happen:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1183761082839646208
which is pretty much my view, although it's hard to be confident.0 -
So what, all major Spanish ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.0 -
The Franco Spanish border is basically the Pyreneeswilliamglenn said:
So you're planning to go to war with France too?HYUFD said:
We can blockade the whole of Spain by air and sea and send special forces into Gibraltar to help support the locals in their guerrilla warfare against the Spanish invadersAndrew said:
The difference is we can't send naval or air units anywhere near Gibraltar, because it's literally attached to Spain.HYUFD said:
So what, the Falklands were further and we recaptured them from Argentina
We also have essentially zero useable carriers at present - QE isn't fully in service yet, and PoW just put to sea. The F35s are extremely capable, but we only have 18 of them. Then all the other bits that go to make a carrier taskforce, electronic warfare, airborne radar, lots of air defence destroyers etc etc.0 -
I don't accept that the choice has to be between Neo-Thatcherite and Corbyn. John Smith's approach would have been fine - bar Devolution.TOPPING said:
Still holding out! Good luck!justin124 said:
13 years - or at least 11.5 years - of Neo-Thatcherite rule did not appeal to me.TOPPING said:
The thought of 13 years of uninterrupted power too much for you to bear?justin124 said:
With respect, I have never been a Corbyn supporter. Moreover, I resigned from Labour long before you gave up on the Tories - ie at the end of 1996. Next time I will spoil my ballot paper - albeit for reasons unconnected with Corbyn.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, Goebbels. As you are a Corbyn supporter I would recommend avoiding that point, given your leader's fondness for pitching 'the many' against 'the few' where the few seem to bear remarkable resemblances to the groups Goebbels stirred up hatred against.justin124 said:
Distinct signs of the Goebbels approach have emerged since Johnson and his team took over. That does resonate.Richard_Nabavi said:
No complaint at all, given that such a comparison would so utterly ludicrous that no one would take it seriously, in contrast to the well-known words and actions of Corbyn and McDonnell:justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/03/exclusive-john-mcdonnell-named-lenin-and-trotsky-his-biggest-influences-20060 -
Spain is surely self-sufficient in food.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
0 -
How will we deal with Portugal? Our oldest ally. Spanish resistance can easily be supplied through their ports.HYUFD said:
So what, all major ports could be blockaded and Spain's main connection to France is via the mountains of the Pyrenees, hardly an effective method of carrying all food imports inrcs1000 said:
The Spanish coast is 5,000 kilometers long.HYUFD said:Second our navy is bigger than Spain's and we could blockade the entire Spanish coast if we wished and am sure our old allies Portugal would give us a hand sealing the border their side too
And Spain is also connected by land to France.
And I really don't know why I'm engaging with you.
Will they remain neutral or should we occupy them too?0 -
There were only 8 allegations of voter ID fraud at the last election .
The new voter ID is a solution looking for a problem .0 -
That's an interesting suggestion, as a common complaint is that some truly execrable people get treated as acceptable for some reason because they are marxist - see Stalin flags at rallys - in a way that would rightly cause outrage if it was a fascist being displayed, so if he is saying comparing with those two is ok, is he as you suggest inviting reasonable comparison with horrible people on the other side? I think that probably depends on whether Corbyn or McDonnell would object to being compared to Trostsky or Lenin.justin124 said:In view of Johnson's comparison of Corbyn and Mcdonnell to Trotsky and Lenin in his speech today, there can be no complaint if in future Labour seeks to compare him and Cummings to Himmler and Heydrich - or vice versa.
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This discussion has been closed.