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Yes, history will repeat itself once again. Labour will almost certainly go from 25% to 41% during the campaign, as they did in 2017.Scott_P said:1 -
Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
The will of parliament is that the PM applies for an extension to avoid no-deal. Nothing here is bypassing that - the EU can approve or reject that as it likes.Scott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?
Perhaps parliament should have ruled out no-deal in the three chances it already had ….. but it preferred to play silly games.
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The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the CommonwealthDougSeal said:
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?HYUFD said:
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with MacronScott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...0 -
Must be the heat generated by warren activities with the young manIanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
I see you’ve dug up the Brady corpse! Voting for a unicorn . I’m sure the Commons also would have voted for all the benefits and none of the obligations out of the EU.HYUFD said:
317 MPs voted for the Brady amendment and the Withdrawal Amendment minus the backstop ie close to the Boris Deal, only 280 MPs voted for a confirmatory referendum on any Deal in the second round of indicative votesMikeSmithson said:
There will probably be an attemptnico67 said:So more showboating by Bozo to put a deal before the Commons before the EU council meeting .
It would be hilarious if it was amended to include a second vote .0 -
But we have the Common Travel Area.HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the CommonwealthDougSeal said:
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?HYUFD said:
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with MacronScott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...0 -
Neither is the USA!HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the CommonwealthDougSeal said:
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?HYUFD said:
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with MacronScott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...0 -
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.-1 -
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.HYUFD said:
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violenceTOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway0 -
Phew, at least George Soros is getting a wee rest.Peter_the_Punter said:
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
The USA is also a foreign powerSunil_Prasannan said:
Neither is the USA!HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the CommonwealthDougSeal said:
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?HYUFD said:
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with MacronScott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...0 -
Oh yes it's terrible.FF43 said:The Johnson Deal is BAD. The only good thing about it is that it will almost certainly never see light of day. The proposal retains the downsides of May's Deal, loses all of that deal's advantages, save one. It adds much more significant problems of its own, particularly for Northern Ireland. It's probably unworkable operationally and it misconceives the purpose of international treaties.
I get that Johnson's Deal is really a political manouevre for his domestic market. But it needs to be underpinned by a real deal.
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.
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No you don't. Your mistake is in thinking that things which have the same generic name must all be exactly the same thing. So football is all football whether it's association, rugby, gridiron, Gaelic or Aussie rules. The difference between our constitution, and one in which things are done by plebiscite, is much, much wider than the gap between association and rugby football, and it is trying to play under elements arbitrarily selected from either rulebook which has got us where we are now. Perhaps if we popularised the term "ochlocracy" for the thinking behind the Wilson and Cameron referendums (which is what it is) that would clear up the confusion, and save the "Did Magna Carta Die In Vain" crowd from bloviating itself to death.HYUFD said:
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violence0 -
So if we don’t ‘respect’ the referendum we are heading to a facist future? Evidence pleasePeter_the_Punter said:
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
Que?!nichomar said:
So if we don’t ‘respect’ the referendum we are heading to a facist future? Evidence pleasePeter_the_Punter said:
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.HYUFD said:
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway0 -
Poor wee Leo - fucked his tin pot country for a decade.-1
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Sorry no matter how you look at that I think I put it in the wrong place was actually wasting my time replying to the blue team supporter.Peter_the_Punter said:
Que?!nichomar said:
So if we don’t ‘respect’ the referendum we are heading to a facist future? Evidence pleasePeter_the_Punter said:
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
Did someone say Commons? Prorogue it!Sunil_Prasannan said:
But we have the Common Travel Area.HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the CommonwealthDougSeal said:
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?HYUFD said:
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with MacronScott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...0 -
In the March 1933 elections the Nazis won 43% of the vote and 288 seats and with the 52 seats from the Nationalist Conservative DNVP crossed the 324 seats threshold needed for a majority.justin124 said:
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.HYUFD said:
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respnoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point0 -
"Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers"?? How many of each of them are there?Omnium said:
Oh yes it's terrible.FF43 said:The Johnson Deal is BAD. The only good thing about it is that it will almost certainly never see light of day. The proposal retains the downsides of May's Deal, loses all of that deal's advantages, save one. It adds much more significant problems of its own, particularly for Northern Ireland. It's probably unworkable operationally and it misconceives the purpose of international treaties.
I get that Johnson's Deal is really a political manouevre for his domestic market. But it needs to be underpinned by a real deal.
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.
No wonder they ran rings around May, Johnson and co.0 -
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.HYUFD said:
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violenceTOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.1 -
Rock, paper, scissors between Swindon and Farage. Best of five. Winner gets to implement their preferred outcome.williamglenn said:
What other option do you see?isam said:As if the only options are parliament voting or another referendum!
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Who are now running the govt.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.0 -
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.HYUFD said:
No I support democracy, if a party wins a general election or a referendum campaign wins that referendum that result deserves to be respected otherwise democracy dies and the only beneficiaries are the political extremes and violenceTOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.1 -
Lol! So I guessed, but on PB you can never be sure.....nichomar said:
Sorry no matter how you look at that I think I put it in the wrong place was actually wasting my time replying to the blue team supporter.Peter_the_Punter said:
Que?!nichomar said:
So if we don’t ‘respect’ the referendum we are heading to a facist future? Evidence pleasePeter_the_Punter said:
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
But they already had control of the levers of power by that time - Hitler having been Chancellor since 30th January. The last genuinely free elections were in Autumn 1932 when the Nazis lost ground compared with the Reichstag elections held earlier that year.HYUFD said:
In the March 1933 elections the Nazis won 43% of the vote and 288 seats and with the 52 seats from the Nationalist Conservative DNVP crossed the 324 seats threshold needed for a majority.justin124 said:
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.HYUFD said:
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as theDougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respnoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:The problem for the Tories is that another referendum will finally rip the party apart. Personally I don’t have a problem with that but Johnson will do anything to avoid that. His desired outcome will be Brexit and then an election where he will hope the undemocratic electoral system will give him a working majority on 35% of the vote. That of course will rip the country apart.
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point1 -
Well there are times I do think there is a parallel universe out there that I’m not privileged to join.Peter_the_Punter said:
Lol! So I guessed, but on PB you can never be sure.....nichomar said:
Sorry no matter how you look at that I think I put it in the wrong place was actually wasting my time replying to the blue team supporter.Peter_the_Punter said:
Que?!nichomar said:
So if we don’t ‘respect’ the referendum we are heading to a facist future? Evidence pleasePeter_the_Punter said:
That's the message I am getting from my Trump supporting friend in Florida. It was all schemed by Pelosi.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
Anyone Hungary for a no deal? 😂0
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Guy is Klopp for me - minus the pearlies.another_richard said:Does anyone think Mark Francois and Guy Verhofstadt look similar ?
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At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.0 -
Well this proposal is worse in every way than May's Deal that Johnson rejected. The deal was there and presumably still is. I'm not saying May's Deal is great. Simply that's it's better and available.Omnium said:
Oh yes it's terrible.FF43 said:The Johnson Deal is BAD. The only good thing about it is that it will almost certainly never see light of day. The proposal retains the downsides of May's Deal, loses all of that deal's advantages, save one. It adds much more significant problems of its own, particularly for Northern Ireland. It's probably unworkable operationally and it misconceives the purpose of international treaties.
I get that Johnson's Deal is really a political manouevre for his domestic market. But it needs to be underpinned by a real deal.
If you're in Colditz Castle though any escape plan is worth a shout.
This is as good as it gets.
Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
None of the bad things are even slightly as hard to leave as the EU seems to be. It may well be that its that bad.
The EU players in this game have always been playing for time.
The problem with all of the above though is that despite all of the crap from the EU it isn't nearly as bad as it imagines itself to be. They could quite easily have presented themselves as they are, could quite easily have presented an easy exit with 'are you sure?'. They could have quite easily played the truth of their own game.
The Junkers, Verhofstadts, and Barniers of this process are in my view great villains - and that's viewed from either side.0 -
So, you are claiming that marriage and taxation are worthless?Omnium said:Anything that's really worth having you can leave at any time. Life. Education. The countryside.
Things that can't be left aside easily include taxation, failed marriages, gyms, mailing-lists.
I agree on gyms and mailing-lists though...
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You mean the March 1933 election that took place "after Nazi stormtroopers had unleashed a widespread campaign of violence against the Communist Party (KPD), left-wingers, trade unionists, the Social Democratic Party of Germany, and the Centre Party"?HYUFD said:
In the March 1933 elections the Nazis won 43% of the vote and 288 seats and with the 52 seats from the Nationalist Conservative DNVP crossed the 324 seats threshold needed for a majority.justin124 said:
The Nazis lost ground at the second Reichstag election held in late 1932. The tragedy was that they were manoeurvred into office by Oskar Von Hindenburg, Von Papen et al at the very moment they had lost momentum. Had the Weimar Republic survived but a further six months, the threat might well have receded significantly.HYUFD said:
The anti Secessionist Labour Party won the state election on the same date as the plebiscite so there were 2 contradictory results on the same day.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respnoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leaed
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
Had the 1932 and 1933 election results not been respected the Nazis would have taken power by force anyway
It was a matter of when not if they came to power at that point
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_electionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election
Simply astounding!1 -
Careful. Some people might take the... wrong lessons... from watching it.Benpointer said:It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.0 -
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.0 -
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.Benpointer said:
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.0 -
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
They just got their Commissioner vetoed by the European Parliament.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
Exactly. As noted above, it is like livening up the Premier League by incorporating some of the choicer Aussie Rules rules, but without doing anything to integrate them.TOPPING said:
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.0 -
Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.Benpointer said:
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independence referendum was not implemented. No violence there. In the case of the 2016 vote, the contradictory promises cannot be delivered so it cannot help but be dishonoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
0 -
Yeah - I bet Cummings has studied it!Noo said:
Careful. Some people might take the... wrong lessons... from watching it.Benpointer said:It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.0 -
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.Noo said:
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.0 -
Where did the impression that remain represented the so called metropolitan elite? When leave was always the campaign behind which the real elite hid to further their own financial gains. That is why we have a parliamentary democracy so that people do not make decisions on gut feel reactions.TOPPING said:
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.
0 -
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one optionCasino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter0 -
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
And if the vote is unimplementable?Gabs2 said:
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.Noo said:
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.0 -
Not entirely sure about the financial gains bit but both campaigns thought they knew best. And their respective supporters agreed with them.nichomar said:
Where did the impression that remain represented the so called metropolitan elite? When leave was always the campaign behind which the real elite hid to further their own financial gains. That is why we have a parliamentary democracy so that people do not make decisions on gut feel reactions.TOPPING said:
It is the confluence of direct and representative democracy.Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
That the referendum result hasn't been implemented is extraordinary on the face of it given the mandate from the people, but understandable (if not forgiveable) when you realise that the elected representatives were also acting democratically and along party political lines, again a part of our representative democracy.0 -
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
A fantastic free trade deal covering the very finest Tokaji?Noo said:
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
Ooops, did I mis-type there?Benpointer said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.Benpointer said:
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independent be dishonoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
If another referendum ripped any party apart it would be Corbyn Labour, where the recent Labour conference saw the party vote by the narrowest of margins not to commit to campaign for Remain against the wishes of most Labour members and where most Labour voters voted Remain but most Labour seats voted Leave.
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
Episode 1: "2010 - Helped into Power"
0 -
HMG is the legitimate executive for foreign policy. Not random groups of MPs.Scott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...0 -
They’re a member of the European Union. With the same rights as any other member State.Noo said:
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
Their domestic situation is irrelevant. The European Union ensures all member states comply with and honour the principles on which it was founded.0 -
Snap!Beibheirli_C said:
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one optionCasino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter0 -
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
0 -
Damn, Tokaj is spectacularly good.Northstar said:
A fantastic free trade deal covering the very finest Tokaji?Noo said:
What is it about the authoritarian, populist, xenophobic Hungarian government that made Boris think they were the best people to reach out to over this, do you think?ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.1 -
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
We discussed this the other day and just now. It is all about leavers taking control by getting a foreign power to overrule our parliament.
Then again them's the rules of the EU so all's fair and all that.0 -
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?Gabs2 said:
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.Noo said:
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.0 -
But we would still have revoked!Gabs2 said:
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
0 -
Hope you are not listening to US talk radio for more than - at most - 2 minutes at a time. You might think you're strong but best not to take chances.IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
Just out of interest who did you vote for in 2010?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ooops, did I mis-type there?Benpointer said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.Benpointer said:
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independent be dishonoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
Episode 1: "2010 - Helped into Power"
0 -
So Boris stands on a platform of repealing the European Communities Act. Brexit vote goes to the Tory on a big turnout.SouthamObserver said:
But we would still have revoked!Gabs2 said:
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
I don't think your opinion is illegitimate. I think you support an illegitimate position. Just as I think someone that wants to bring back absolutist monarchh supports an undemocratic, illegitimate position.Noo said:
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?Gabs2 said:
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.Noo said:
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.0 -
Not quite sure what you mean. All governments are “free”with other people’s money as they can only spend other people’s money.SouthamObserver said:
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
0 -
So Labour would all vote for this?Benpointer said:
Snap!Beibheirli_C said:
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one optionCasino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter0 -
On a serious note getting caught between a UK focused on low tax/regulation post Brexit and an EU focused on the opposite would see Eire up shit creek, to put it mildly...FF43 said:
You're an asset to this site IMO because you say out aloud what Johnson and his coterie clearly think. An attitude that the Irish must be all too conscious of.TGOHF2 said:Poor wee Leo - fucked his tin pot country for a decade.
You add insight. Thank you.
High stakes for all concerned.0 -
Yes but who knows what the outcome of such an election would be, or even what the party platforms would be going into it.Gabs2 said:
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
I think I voted ToryThe_Taxman said:
Just out of interest who did you vote for in 2010?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ooops, did I mis-type there?Benpointer said:Sunil_Prasannan said:
"The Tories - a Warning from History" from the mid-1990s was a much better series. Narrated by Samuel West, no less.Benpointer said:
It was advisory. If you ask for my advice, you are not obliged to take it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.DougSeal said:
Some results don’t deserve to be respected. Risking Godwin here, the German general elections of 1932 and 1933 spring immediately to mind. And the 1932 Western Australia independent be dishonoured.HYUFD said:TOPPING said:
We have a sovereign parliament. Deal with it.HYUFD said:
Only if they won a general election with a majority and were then prevented from forming a government as that would be disrespecting democracyTOPPING said:
Would you vote for Labour from then on if they won the next general election?HYUFD said:
It wouldn't actually as most Tories are now firmly behind Leave, certainly in the country, as is the Tory Leader (I am a Tory activist for example and voted Remain in 2016 but would now vote Leave and respect the first vote), while LDs and the SNP are firmly behind Remain.johnt said:
I don't want another referendum but it could be win win for the Tories provided Boris campaigned for Leave, if Remain wins narrowly Boris can be Alex Salmond 2 and win a landslide at the next general election under FPTP thanks to furious Leavers wanting revenge as the SNP did in 2015 after the narrow No vote in 2014.
If Leave wins again Boris would be triumphant as would the Tories with the Remainer parties shattered
So you would support Jeremy Corbyn. You change with the wind. What kind of a supporter do you call yourself?
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Re Godwin... There's nothing to be ashamed about remembering how easily Germany stumbled into dictatorship - I advise you watch the BBC's Rise of the Nazis series, it's a salutory lesson for all generations.
I see what you did there - a reverse-Godwin no less
Episode 1: "2010 - Helped into Power"
But I voted Labour in 2015
0 -
Labour were all about hosing other peoples money up the wall and you were ok with that until they turned hard left and embraced the lunatic anti semitic left.SouthamObserver said:
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
It's so nice to meet the arbiter of what legitimate positions are.Gabs2 said:
I don't think your opinion is illegitimate. I think you support an illegitimate position. Just as I think someone that wants to bring back absolutist monarchh supports an undemocratic, illegitimate position.Noo said:
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?Gabs2 said:
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.Noo said:
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Suppose I said to you that Brexit was an illegitimate, undemocratic position. Is that different because, well, I'm not you, the Chosen One?0 -
The only solution is ctr alt del or pull the plug out what a waste of three year to decide how badly you destroy your future all because the Tory party was worried about ......ha ha ha UKIP well let them sort it out and live and die with the consequences but it will always be what’s best for the Tory party not the country. You don’t have to look too far for evidence to support that
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Good luck with thatBenpointer said:
Snap!Beibheirli_C said:
Well then, if the Benn Act kills No Deal and the Hungarians play silly-buggers with the extension and the only Deal is unworkable, that only leaves one optionCasino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
VoNC followed by Revoke. I am sure Ms Swinson would write the letter
Brexit really has driven some people mad.0 -
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Nobody can know for sure, but I strongly believe Boris would get 40%+ of the vote while neither the Lib Dems or Labour would get over 30%.Benpointer said:
Yes but who knows what the outcome of such an election would be, or even what the party platforms would be going into it.Gabs2 said:
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
Only having visited the US a couple of times and never having listend to talk radio there, is it really completely alt-right dominated and if so why?IanB2 said:Yesterday was the hottest October day ever recorded in North Carolina, and today is expected to be a degree hotter reaching 100F.
Meanwhile US talk radio is baying for the blood of the whistleblower (now called “the leaker”) suggesting the whole thing was preplanned by the Dems.0 -
You
It is expressly the law of the land it is not @HYUFD That was the point of the Act. Ireland left the Commonwealth so a special provision was made. Look at section 2 -HYUFD said:
The Republic of Ireland is a foreign power by any means, it is not even in the CommonwealthDougSeal said:
Read the Ireland Act 1948 dear boy. Ireland is for no purposes to be regarded as a foreign country. And you would struggle to find any collusion with Ireland to thwart the will of Parliament. As for Blair, what office in the executive does he hold now?HYUFD said:
What the diehard Remainers have been doing with Ireland and Blair has been doing with MacronScott_P said:
Collaborating with a foreign power to thwart the will of Parliament?HYUFD said:Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happened
Genius...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/41/enacted
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People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.0 -
Ever heard of sovereign wealth funds?ozymandias said:
Not quite sure what you mean. All governments are “free”with other people’s money as they can only spend other people’s money.SouthamObserver said:
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0 -
And you opposed it until it was being done by a friend of xenophobes, bigots and white supremacists!Floater said:
Labour were all about hosing other peoples money up the wall and you were ok with that until they turned hard left and embraced the lunatic anti semitic left.SouthamObserver said:
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
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You are entitled to argue your case just as I am. Others can judge how compelling our cases are. That is the beauty of free speech and debate.Noo said:
It's so nice to meet the arbiter of what legitimate positions are.Gabs2 said:
I don't think your opinion is illegitimate. I think you support an illegitimate position. Just as I think someone that wants to bring back absolutist monarchh supports an undemocratic, illegitimate position.Noo said:
Ok, so to be clear, you're saying that under your vision of democracy, my opinion is illegitimate. Is that right?Gabs2 said:
After the result of the vote has been implemented. A democracy is where you count all the votes and all the votes count.Noo said:
At what point do you think I have the right to have a differing opinion? I think leaving the EU is wrong and I will use my vote to stop it, given any chance. At what point does this "nascent dictatorshop[sic]" become a valid democratic opinion?Richard_Tyndall said:Yes you are guilty of Godwin and you should be ashamed.
If you hold a vote and then do not abide by its result that is not democracy. It is the action of a nascent dictatorshop.
Suppose I said to you that Brexit was an illegitimate, undemocratic position. Is that different because, well, I'm not you, the Chosen One?0 -
Lmao ! The Hungary veto again .
There are many battles they would like to have with the EU but Leavers are becoming desperate if they think they’re going to veto an extension .0 -
Yep - and then we spend another few years trying to get out of the European Union.Gabs2 said:
So Boris stands on a platform of repealing the European Communities Act. Brexit vote goes to the Tory on a big turnout.SouthamObserver said:
But we would still have revoked!Gabs2 said:
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
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On topic: this is another another poll that weights Leavers and Remainers back to the 52/48 split of three years ago.
What's the logic of that when we know more Leavers than Remainers will have passed away and the new under-22 voters are more Remain oriented?0 -
Let's not spend billions on the NHS, let's give it to the DUP and Hungary instead. Catchy :-Dozymandias said:
Not quite sure what you mean. All governments are “free”with other people’s money as they can only spend other people’s money.SouthamObserver said:
They are no doubt being wooed - but I wonder what the UK could give that would compensate for what the EU could take away. Having thrown billions at the DUP that could have been spent on the NHS instead, we would have to throw billions more at the Hungarians. And all to ensure a No Deal that would cost us billions more. Johnson really is very free with other people's money, isn't he?!!ozymandias said:
It’s what I’m hearing.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.
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Brexit is leaving the EU, nothing more, nothing less. The act of leaving, under any deal or no deal, has a mandate. The act of remaning is undenocratic. It is up to parliament whether they want to accompany the act of leaving with a deal.johnt said:People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.0 -
100% right, other than Johnson's deal is not a deal. It's a proposal.johnt said:People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
It's only a deal if both parties agree. At the moment, it's far from clear that either party agrees. The technical description for a proposal that neither side agrees with is a "you spaffed your time up the wall, you stupid blond gimp, what the fuck were you thinking, this is such total garbage". Or "garbage" for short.0 -
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1179827411233447938?s=21
Feels like an accurate view of where we are at - if there’s enough wiggle room shown by Boris, we might see negotiators enter the fabled ‘tunnel’. Parliament and Ireland acting as bad cops in this negotiation, Junker as good cop (God help us)...0 -
Johnson's proposals cannot work without the consent of the majority of people in Northern Ireland.johnt said:People make a great deal about the result of the 2016 referendum being respected before there can be another vote. The problem with that argument is that it relies on an assumption that Johnson’s deal is what people believed was ‘Brexit’ when they voted in 2016. The reality is that the Johnson deal has no mandate and for most people is not what they thought was ‘Brexit’. In fact, it seems to me that Brexit isn’t Brexit and Leave is not Leave.
People I talk to are pretty certain that neither May’s deal nor Johnson’s deal are the Brexit they thought was on offer. So they don’t believe it has any form of democratic mandate.
I suspect if Johnson’s deal is implemented without a public vote it will never be accepted as a democratic outcome by a very large part of the U.K. population.
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With a massive Tory majority and all its Remainers deselected.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - and then we spend another few years trying to get out of the European Union.Gabs2 said:
So Boris stands on a platform of repealing the European Communities Act. Brexit vote goes to the Tory on a big turnout.SouthamObserver said:
But we would still have revoked!Gabs2 said:
If they did that, Boris could resign in disgust and demand a General Election. It is hard to see what other government could be formed afterwards so he would get it.Benpointer said:
Be careful what you wish for - faced with No Deal the HoC could be forced to Revoke A50.Casino_Royale said:
Looks like Hungary are being wooed to veto to me.HYUFD said:
Hungary ready to veto further extension making the Benn Act redundant, then put the Boris Deal to Parliament as the only alternative to No Deal? Cummings would be a genius if that happenedScott_P said:
Or, at least, heavily flirted with to play mind games with the EU.0
This discussion has been closed.