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I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:0 -
The problem was turning it into a cultural war in the first place, (with both sides equally to blame of course). They should have done their utmost to keep the debate as "technocratic" as possible, for the greater good.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
I'm not sure Boris is in the mood to be lectured on what is "proper" by Bercow.....Scott_P said:0 -
Eh ? Bebb, Grieve, Baker and Patel all voted against MV3.Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
Anne Marie Morris voted down the Brady amendment from the leave perspective.
Think I've misunderstood you.0 -
they screwed up the technocratic arguments as wellAndyJS said:
The problem was turning it into a cultural war in the first place, (with both sides equally to blame of course). They should have done their utmost to keep the debate as "technocratic" as possible, for the greater good.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
The size of the rebellion is a direct challenge to Boris's authority and he has no choice but to call a GE. Labour will support it following RA probably on Monday, so a GE now looks odds on0
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A no-deal Brexit would be both culturally, economically and very probably, in the means of its enaction, constitutionally, damaging. A no-exit would simply bear some damage to social coherence, and so to the cultural element, with less damage to the other dimensions.Byronic said:
Sure. But Remainers are now running the show. They have a whiff of victory. They won’t stop until they’ve fucked Brexit. And with it, quite possibly, the country.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
He may end up hectoring someone he should have sucked up to.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:
Or is he now beyond the need to suck up to any mortal being?0 -
Or - more likely - he was doing his Don Corleone act. "You're all dead to me...."Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:0 -
Johnson is totally untrustworthy - as today's court documents have shown. It's not just a matter of fixing down a date, though. It's also crucial that the incoming government and Parliament has the time to act before the 31st October deadline.AndyJS said:
I'm surprised that people think Johnson would change the date of an election after announcing it. I don't think any British politician would do that. Maybe I'm naive.SouthamObserver said:
The issue has always been ensuring that the election is not used as a device to ensure a No Deal, even if the result produces a majority for parties opposing No Deal. Basically, Johnson is not trusted not to agree one thing and then do another. If a device is found to tie his hands and to give the incoming government the time needed to implement its Brexit policy then an eletion works for everyone that matters.WhisperingOracle said:Corbyn going for the election after all, it looks like.
"Following a productive meeting of cross-party MPs this morning, we are united in our opposition to Boris Johnson’s plans for a no deal.
We are confident that the legislative route we have adopted has every chance of being successful, and we are working on ways in which we can prevent Boris Johnson manipulating an election to force a no-deal Brexit.
Labour wants to prevent a no-deal Brexit, and to have a general election, so we can end austerity and invest in our communities. I am confident we can have both, and we’ve been in discussions about a way to achieve this. We will continue to work across parliament towards this goal and will have further meetings to this end in coming days."
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Jo Johnson.Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
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I don't think that revoking will "quickly settle things" I do though think it is the best for the UK. There are many leavers who think that leavng is the best for the country.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
You are right that the UK will be very divided on this issue for half a generation. That pandoras box was opened once the European Union Referendum Act 2015 was passed.
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WA to Norway Landing may be a good end goal, but no sane opposition MP would expect a Tory government to deliver the second bit, and rightly so with Liar Johnson and the ERG at the controls. Trust has gone.Alanbrooke said:
Most voters would go with that, its MPs who appear to be unable to get their shit together.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.
If it was a Labour government, or even one with Ken Clarke in charge, maybe a different story.0 -
Y'know that selective and mendacious screen grab of the anti-No-Deal bill last night? The one that suggested Brussels could extend us by a million years and Boris would have to suck it up... without showing the following clause making clear *parliament* could reject the extension?
That's now the basis of the approved talking points for Tory MPs. FFS.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168880420143947780?s=200 -
Good to see Phillip Thompson doing a header, and it’s a good one. I dislike his politics intensely but his contributions below the line often help me to see things from a different perspective. Well done PB2
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He gives Matt Hancock a run for his money for the biggest wet flannel award.tlg86 said:
Jo Johnson.Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
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There's a Tory MP who voted against MV3 for Remainy reasons (2nd ref) but who will vote against the motion today.Pulpstar said:
Eh ? Bebb, Grieve, Baker and Patel all voted against MV3.Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
Anne Marie Morris voted down the Brady amendment from the leave perspective.
Think I've misunderstood you.
EDIT: @tlg86 has it0 -
I suspect any hectoring was deliberate - it seems like Cummings doesn't do much without calculation. Quite why he would do it, I have no idea.Chris said:
He may end up hectoring someone he should have sucked up to.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:
Or is he now beyond the need to suck up to any mortal being?0 -
Is that surprising ? I wonder what is the sister's current point of view. She was a CHUK candidate in the Euros.tlg86 said:
Jo Johnson.Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
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Jo Jonson?Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
0 -
Sorry, but you don't get to fuck over democracy and then say, oh well, no biggie....WhisperingOracle said:
A no-deal Brexit would be both culturally, economically and very probably, in the means of its enaction, constitutionally, damaging. A no-exit would simply bear some damage to social coherence, and so to the cultural element, with less damage to the other dimensions.Byronic said:
Sure. But Remainers are now running the show. They have a whiff of victory. They won’t stop until they’ve fucked Brexit. And with it, quite possibly, the country.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
Guido has polling showing that 60% of Con voters and 60% of leavers think the rebels should be deselected.Stark_Dawning said:
I suspect it's just a Cummings wheeze that will be quickly abandoned once the threat no longer has a purpose. Chucking out all those long-standing, venerable Tories would make Boris a leper within the party. He wouldn't want that.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
He's one of the most interesting, for sure.Cyclefree said:
I think it will be a real shame if we lose him from the Commons. He has been one of the few politicians who has impressed me.Scott_P said:
Attempting to deselect a huge amount of senior/high profile MPs in one go is banana republic stuff, is he really going to go through with it?0 -
Your comments might make slightly more sense if you bothered to read properly what you were commenting on.MarqueeMark said:
I'm not sure Boris is in the mood to be lectured on what is "proper" by Bercow.....Scott_P said:0 -
If you tot up all the votes which "should have" gone the other way on key Brexit votes (ERG should have voted in favour of Brexit, followed by Tory remainers) etc then I had him down as THE key swing vote to get Brexit over the line.tlg86 said:
Jo Johnson.Tissue_Price said:Bonus point to the first PB'er to identify the only Tory who voted against MV3 from the Remain perspective and who will (presumably) vote with the Government against the motion today.
He's not the key vote any more though.0 -
And still you retain your membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Suspension is certain but for how long.Stark_Dawning said:
I suspect it's just a Cummings wheeze that will be quickly abandoned once the threat no longer has a purpose. Chucking out all those long-standing, venerable Tories would make Boris a leper within the party. He wouldn't want that.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
He's one of the most interesting, for sure.Cyclefree said:
I think it will be a real shame if we lose him from the Commons. He has been one of the few politicians who has impressed me.Scott_P said:
Attempting to deselect a huge amount of senior/high profile MPs in one go is banana republic stuff, is he really going to go through with it?
Unbelievable0 -
So less than 30% of the population?GarethoftheVale2 said:
Guido has polling showing that 60% of Con voters and 60% of leavers think the rebels should be deselected.Stark_Dawning said:
I suspect it's just a Cummings wheeze that will be quickly abandoned once the threat no longer has a purpose. Chucking out all those long-standing, venerable Tories would make Boris a leper within the party. He wouldn't want that.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
He's one of the most interesting, for sure.Cyclefree said:
I think it will be a real shame if we lose him from the Commons. He has been one of the few politicians who has impressed me.Scott_P said:
Attempting to deselect a huge amount of senior/high profile MPs in one go is banana republic stuff, is he really going to go through with it?0 -
Remain had a majority in Buckingham. I don't see any prospect of the Speaker being unseated if he chooses to stand.
I'm not betting on this market for two reasons. First, the contest may still be some years off. And secondly, it is a contest where insider knowledge is valuable and I don't have it.0 -
Yassas!!! My work is done. These are basically my words, verbatim, from last night. Dom Cummings is my disciple and I claim my 5 ecusHarris_Tweed said:Y'know that selective and mendacious screen grab of the anti-No-Deal bill last night? The one that suggested Brussels could extend us by a million years and Boris would have to suck it up... without showing the following clause making clear *parliament* could reject the extension?
That's now the basis of the approved talking points for Tory MPs. FFS.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168880420143947780?s=200 -
You’re the one who wants to overrule the decision that the people made to elect this Parliament in 2017.MarqueeMark said:
Sorry, but you don't get to fuck over democracy and then say, oh well, no biggie....WhisperingOracle said:
A no-deal Brexit would be both culturally, economically and very probably, in the means of its enaction, constitutionally, damaging. A no-exit would simply bear some damage to social coherence, and so to the cultural element, with less damage to the other dimensions.Byronic said:
Sure. But Remainers are now running the show. They have a whiff of victory. They won’t stop until they’ve fucked Brexit. And with it, quite possibly, the country.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
Nah, like most sociopaths he has a short fuse, enjoys wielding power, and cannot understand that other people think differently.Luckyguy1983 said:
I suspect any hectoring was deliberate - it seems like Cummings doesn't do much without calculation. Quite why he would do it, I have no idea.Chris said:
He may end up hectoring someone he should have sucked up to.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:
Or is he now beyond the need to suck up to any mortal being?
The problem with his game theory is that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.0 -
One could say the same for the implications for our parliamentary system and constitution in the event of a frogmarched-through no-deal.MarqueeMark said:
Sorry, but you don't get to fuck over democracy and then say, oh well, no biggie....WhisperingOracle said:
A no-deal Brexit would be both culturally, economically and very probably, in the means of its enaction, constitutionally, damaging. A no-exit would simply bear some damage to social coherence, and so to the cultural element, with less damage to the other dimensions.Byronic said:
Sure. But Remainers are now running the show. They have a whiff of victory. They won’t stop until they’ve fucked Brexit. And with it, quite possibly, the country.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.
The conflict between parliamentary and plebiscitary democracy is not reconcilable.0 -
Quite remarkable especially given his original views about Borisbigjohnowls said:
And still you retain your membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Suspension is certain but for how long.Stark_Dawning said:
I suspect it's just a Cummings wheeze that will be quickly abandoned once the threat no longer has a purpose. Chucking out all those long-standing, venerable Tories would make Boris a leper within the party. He wouldn't want that.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
He's one of the most interesting, for sure.Cyclefree said:
I think it will be a real shame if we lose him from the Commons. He has been one of the few politicians who has impressed me.Scott_P said:
Attempting to deselect a huge amount of senior/high profile MPs in one go is banana republic stuff, is he really going to go through with it?
Unbelievable0 -
I think we can safely assume the answer is YES to any question which ends in an incredulous "is he *really* going to go through with it?" in relation to Her Britannic Majesty's current First Lord of the Treasury.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
He's one of the most interesting, for sure.Cyclefree said:
I think it will be a real shame if we lose him from the Commons. He has been one of the few politicians who has impressed me.Scott_P said:
Attempting to deselect a huge amount of senior/high profile MPs in one go is banana republic stuff, is he really going to go through with it?0 -
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As Boris has found to his cost and now Jezza has him by the balls.MarqueeMark said:
Sorry, but you don't get to fuck over democracy and then say, oh well, no biggie....WhisperingOracle said:
A no-deal Brexit would be both culturally, economically and very probably, in the means of its enaction, constitutionally, damaging. A no-exit would simply bear some damage to social coherence, and so to the cultural element, with less damage to the other dimensions.Byronic said:
Sure. But Remainers are now running the show. They have a whiff of victory. They won’t stop until they’ve fucked Brexit. And with it, quite possibly, the country.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.
Cant wait to see Cummings begging the PM elect.0 -
If you're wondering how the Scottish Tories are faring without Ruth the Truth, Jackson Carlaw has responded to the SNP laying out their programme for government at Holyrood by slagging off Nicola Sturgeon for dyeing her hair.
Vote winning stuff.1 -
The accept within two days unless Parliament rejects it clause?Byronic said:
He’s not voting against No Deal. He’s voting for a bill which delivers a naked, hog-tied Britain to the dungeonmasters of the EU. Wanker.Scott_P said:
Edit: I like Rory Stewart. But his inability to acknowledge this clause in the Hillary Benn Brexit Surrender Treaty is a major failure.0 -
Or even looked at the pictures! ROTFLChris said:
Your comments might make slightly more sense if you bothered to read properly what you were commenting on.MarqueeMark said:
I'm not sure Boris is in the mood to be lectured on what is "proper" by Bercow.....Scott_P said:0 -
I agree with your second part, but I don't believe he was just blowing off steam.Foxy said:
Nah, like most sociopaths he has a short fuse, enjoys wielding power, and cannot understand that other people think differently.Luckyguy1983 said:
I suspect any hectoring was deliberate - it seems like Cummings doesn't do much without calculation. Quite why he would do it, I have no idea.Chris said:
He may end up hectoring someone he should have sucked up to.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:
Or is he now beyond the need to suck up to any mortal being?
The problem with his game theory is that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
Deliberately antagonising potential rebels would lend support to the theory that Boris/Cummings want to bring this to a head to get a GE. Or it could be something different entirely.0 -
Speaker of the House of Lords.MarqueeMark said:
I'm not sure Boris is in the mood to be lectured on what is "proper" by Bercow.....Scott_P said:
I know you might think Bercow slightly megalomaniacal, but even his hubris doesn't extend quite so far.0 -
and off you goFoxy said:
WA to Norway Landing may be a good end goal, but no sane opposition MP would expect a Tory government to deliver the second bit, and rightly so with Liar Johnson and the ERG at the controls. Trust has gone.Alanbrooke said:
Most voters would go with that, its MPs who appear to be unable to get their shit together.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed , de jure Brexit for the symbolism.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflecty wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
If it was a Labour government, or even one with Ken Clarke in charge, maybe a different story.
the whole Brexit issue is now just too toxic for sensible poliitics, it's like Stormont without the pinko liberalism.BoJo has only been in office a couple of months; the previous three years MPs had lots of time and even managed to neuter the executive and do what they pleased. But they couldnt get past the politics,
Politicans have spent too much time trying to outsmart each other rather than getting on with the job in hand. We can name call whoever we want but thats not getting any legislation passed and on current form any extension will just be another period of digging the trenches deeper.0 -
Excellent debut piece Philip.
Frank Field is interesting as an option at 25/1 (I think JRM is too partisan) and I think it is Hoyle's to lose at present.0 -
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Scott- let me know the charity and I’ll settle after the vote.
So long Rory MP...0 -
Defection watch: Man overboard0
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Pathological liar caught in his latest whopper.Scott_P said:0 -
Does that suggest a little bit of panic ? I thought they had game-planned.Harris_Tweed said:Y'know that selective and mendacious screen grab of the anti-No-Deal bill last night? The one that suggested Brussels could extend us by a million years and Boris would have to suck it up... without showing the following clause making clear *parliament* could reject the extension?
That's now the basis of the approved talking points for Tory MPs. FFS.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168880420143947780?s=200 -
Whilst I understand the logic and agree that a coroner could and possibly should do such a thing...Scott_P said:
A coroner is a judicial role, and no politician should be telling them how to make their judgments. We need less of this kind of political meddling in judicial decisions, not more.0 -
Philip Lee has just crossed the floor says Isabel Hardman. Just to chat to a mate or something more?0
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If they block Brexit they will have to face a GE eventually - and PM Farage will be their reward.Byronic said:
Sure. But Remainers are now running the show. They have a whiff of victory. They won’t stop until they’ve fucked Brexit. And with it, quite possibly, the country.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
So does Phil Hammond who labour are so pleased withbigjohnowls said:
And still you retain your membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Suspension is certain but for how long.Stark_Dawning said:
I suspect it's just a Cummings wheeze that will be quickly abandoned once the threat no longer has a purpose. Chucking out all those long-standing, venerable Tories would make Boris a leper within the party. He wouldn't want that.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
He's one of the most interesting, for sure.Cyclefree said:
I think it will be a real shame if we lose him from the Commons. He has been one of the few politicians who has impressed me.Scott_P said:
Attempting to deselect a huge amount of senior/high profile MPs in one go is banana republic stuff, is he really going to go through with it?
Unbelievable0 -
Any one back Philip Lee to join LDs. Bingo.
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/11688955378919505950 -
Feels like End of Days...0
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Government Majority 00
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Frank Field is in his late 70s. It won't be him. I had thought JRM wanted to be Speaker until he joined the government a few weeks back.Casino_Royale said:Excellent debut piece Philip.
Frank Field is interesting as an option at 25/1 (I think JRM is too partisan) and I think it is Hoyle's to lose at present.0 -
David Johnston QC appearing for the government today. He is a brilliant lawyer but not, perhaps, the most scintillating advocate. He has just finished and Mr O'Neill is responding in rebuttal. Normally this would be brief but in this case, who knows?0
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Which BoJo's administration just officially became a minority government.Scott_P said:0 -
No Speaker gets a casting vote - lolGallowgate said:Government Majority 0
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0
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It was already a minority government; it just no longer has majority C&S support.not_on_fire said:
Which BoJo's administration just officially became a minority government.Scott_P said:1 -
Your excuse is political overexcitability turned up to 11.Byronic said:
Yassas!!! My work is done. These are basically my words, verbatim, from last night. Dom Cummings is my disciple and I claim my 5 ecusHarris_Tweed said:Y'know that selective and mendacious screen grab of the anti-No-Deal bill last night? The one that suggested Brussels could extend us by a million years and Boris would have to suck it up... without showing the following clause making clear *parliament* could reject the extension?
That's now the basis of the approved talking points for Tory MPs. FFS.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168880420143947780?s=20
What is theirs ?0 -
In that case you'd have absolutely no problems flying a UJ.El_Capitano said:FPT
A remainy bit of the Cotswolds.Casino_Royale said:
Where do you live?El_Capitano said:
That depends on the demographics of where you live. There are certainly places where flying a Union Jack would cause more raised eyebrows than flying an EU flag. (I live in one such.)Casino_Royale said:
If you want to pour fuel on the fire of opposition to the EU in the UK then go right ahead.IanB2 said:
The time for flying those EU flags you had me buy, may be approaching.Casino_Royale said:
I think it's concepts like that which really irritate Eurosceptics: they put national citizenships on an equal footing with those of every other, when really they're not. Again, the EU gets the tone and language all wrong.Gallowgate said:HYUFD said:
Yes, diehard Remainers are now clearly turning traitor this is 1588 all over againByronic said:This is quite incendiary. The rebels are in cahoots with the lawyers of a foreign power.
Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) Tweeted:
4. Johnson tried to make case he thinks will get a deal but there simply isn’t much faith in that argument - one present said ‘it’s a load of ....’ - on other side another in the room said it’s clear rebels have consulted with eu lawyers
If you want to be hyperbolic, THIS looks like the real coup.
I’m a citizen of both the EU and the UK. How can I be a traitor?
The EU should have stuck to citizen of a nation state within the European Alliance. Everything from nation first and ditch the federalism.
Crucial difference.
It's emotional symbols of nationhood and loyalty like that which go straight to the gut of what drives Eurosceptic feeling and reaction.
You should have learnt this by now.
It's picture postcard England.0 -
Heart of stone to watch Bercow having to cast his vote in favour of Government.Alanbrooke said:
No Speaker gets a casting vote - lolGallowgate said:Government Majority 0
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Or in the real world, the traders have made (another) a profit from variations in exchange rates.Byronic said:
If the rebels win then revoke or referendum, and hence Remain, become much much more likely. If not probable. It looks like the forex markets have already noticed this.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It looks like itPulpstar said:Rebel majority of 30 for this evening's vote. Benn bill is heavily odds on to receive RA.
The £ has regained all its daily losses.0 -
O’Mara makes the difference I think.bigjohnowls said:0 -
Correct.AndyJS said:
The problem was turning it into a cultural war in the first place, (with both sides equally to blame of course). They should have done their utmost to keep the debate as "technocratic" as possible, for the greater good.Pulpstar said:
It's called the withdrawal agreement followed by a Norwegian landing. I genuinely think once we're out most leavers won't particularly care how close we are to the EU - the symbolic cultural war will have been won.Byronic said:
Yes. But the same goes for the Remainers: who blithely think a revocation, or a brisk new referendum with a Remain outcome, will quickly settle things, as we go back to normal.dixiedean said:
Yes. But it reflects an understandable weariness. The fantasy that by Brexiting we will all breathe a sigh of relief and never speak of it again is strong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Of course not but it chimes with various comments people have made to me over the last few days, some not even into politicsGallowgate said:
I accept that. But that does not mean its representative.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a snapshot of ordinary peoples views plus some businessmenGallowgate said:
You think people who are out and about in Mansfield on a Tuesday are representative of the country?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky reporting from Mansfield shows most everyone saying unite and leave by 31st October. There is real anger and frustration at the mps trying to delay leaving
Looks as if Boris is reflecting public opinion
Evidence, if there is any, should start showing in the polls over the next few days
And hideously wrong.
It is delusional.
I’m trying hard to think of a way out of this, which doesn’t lead to an embittered country divided in half for a generation. It’s tricky.
Essentially de facto Remain for the economy, de jure Brexit for the symbolism.0 -
That’s merely a precedent.dr_spyn said:
Heart of stone to watch Bercow having to cast his vote in favour of Government.Alanbrooke said:
No Speaker gets a casting vote - lolGallowgate said:Government Majority 0
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Does Jared O'Mara still count?bigjohnowls said:0 -
Ooh when's the By Election?! Oh, of course, there wont be one #democratsScott_P said:0 -
Or as Mike Tyson put it: everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.Foxy said:
Nah, like most sociopaths he has a short fuse, enjoys wielding power, and cannot understand that other people think differently.Luckyguy1983 said:
I suspect any hectoring was deliberate - it seems like Cummings doesn't do much without calculation. Quite why he would do it, I have no idea.Chris said:
He may end up hectoring someone he should have sucked up to.Richard_Nabavi said:
I'm not sure that such a degree of political ignorance - not knowing the governing party's senior MPs - is entirely optimal in a SPAD.AndyJS said:
Or is he now beyond the need to suck up to any mortal being?
The problem with his game theory is that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
For the record, I am not suggesting anybody should punch Cummings in the face.0 -
Or a loss if they've followed the Neil Woodford playbook on sterling.philiph said:
Or in the real world, the traders have made (another) a profit from variations in exchange rates.Byronic said:
If the rebels win then revoke or referendum, and hence Remain, become much much more likely. If not probable. It looks like the forex markets have already noticed this.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It looks like itPulpstar said:Rebel majority of 30 for this evening's vote. Benn bill is heavily odds on to receive RA.
The £ has regained all its daily losses.0 -
Is it me or have Boris and Cummings made the situation worse as the day goes on?0
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The question is, will it win the government more votes / MPs byAndyJS said:
I'm surprised that people think Johnson would change the date of an election after announcing it. I don't think any British politician would do that. Maybe I'm naive.SouthamObserver said:
The issue has always been ensuring that the election is not used as a device to ensure a No Deal, even if the result produces a majority for parties opposing No Deal. Basically, Johnson is not trusted not to agree one thing and then do another. If a device is found to tie his hands and to give the incoming government the time needed to implement its Brexit policy then an eletion works for everyone that matters.WhisperingOracle said:Corbyn going for the election after all, it looks like.
"Following a productive meeting of cross-party MPs this morning, we are united in our opposition to Boris Johnson’s plans for a no deal.
We are confident that the legislative route we have adopted has every chance of being successful, and we are working on ways in which we can prevent Boris Johnson manipulating an election to force a no-deal Brexit.
Labour wants to prevent a no-deal Brexit, and to have a general election, so we can end austerity and invest in our communities. I am confident we can have both, and we’ve been in discussions about a way to achieve this. We will continue to work across parliament towards this goal and will have further meetings to this end in coming days."
changing the date? If the PM and his special advisor think it will be a net vote winner, it is likely that he would change the date.
If Boris changes the Election date to the 7th November and refuses to carry out the Benn Bill on the 31st October, can he be be found in contempt of parliament, while parliament is closed for the election?
Anyway I don't think it will come to that, because it the chances it will back fire at the ballot box is too risky.0 -
It's OK, Darth Cumming has wargamed this.Alanbrooke said:No Speaker gets a casting vote - lol
Right?0 -
It appears Philip Lee may have just disrupted BoZo's OODA loop...0
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Are there any photos or footage of Philip Lee crossing the floor? Would be interesting to see.0
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No Cummings has ordered them not to say don't panic don't panic jezzas got us by the balls.surbiton19 said:
Does that suggest a little bit of panic ? I thought they had game-planned.Harris_Tweed said:Y'know that selective and mendacious screen grab of the anti-No-Deal bill last night? The one that suggested Brussels could extend us by a million years and Boris would have to suck it up... without showing the following clause making clear *parliament* could reject the extension?
That's now the basis of the approved talking points for Tory MPs. FFS.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1168880420143947780?s=200 -
28,696 majority for Lee to overturn. Could be tricky.0
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In terms of confidence, boris will get the support of Mann and Austin, possibly Hoey, it depends how many Tories vote against the government.......0
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It is. To use a fashionable WW2 analogy, Brexit right now feels like the Axis in mid 1944. For a long while it seemed inevitable, then doubts crept in (Stalingrad), then quite suddenly it all fell apart and enemies streamed in from all angles.Jonathan said:Feels like End of Days...
It was another year in the dying but by July 44 it was doomed.0 -
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https://twitter.com/elbeetham/status/1168898058437976066AndyJS said:Are there any photos or footage of Philip Lee crossing the floor? Would be interesting to see.
1 -
Holding people to account is so old fashioned and boring isnt it?Gallowgate said:0 -
He is a gonner like Chukka Ryan Gapes at alPulpstar said:28,696 majority for Lee to overturn. Could be tricky.
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Interesting to see he did it on his own. Surprised a group didn’t move en bloc.AndyJS said:Are there any photos or footage of Philip Lee crossing the floor? Would be interesting to see.
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Boris
'Jeremy Corbyn's surrender bill'
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You’re both wrong. Boris and Cummings are playing a terrible hand rather well. Doing as good as could seriously be expected. Trouble is: it’s a terrible hand (as we all acknowledged when Boris took power). Almost unplayable.eek said:
They have managed to make things worse action by action since last Wednesday.DanSmith said:Is it me or have Boris and Cummings made the situation worse as the day goes on?
It’s a tragedy they weren’t in power in 2016. I think they would have delivered a decent soft Brexit. But it’s too late now.0
This discussion has been closed.