politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservative Party is pursuing profoundly un-conservative

Labour would have not have comprimised on anything, they voted against the deal cause it was May's deal. The deal she bought back was exactly the same as Labour would have bought back if it was in power. As posters mentioned earlier Labour is the opposition and no matter what is put in front of them they would vote against it.

HYUFD said:

Cyclefree said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Theuniondivvie said:

So PB ex Tories is now a thing.

It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.

What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.

That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.

A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.

Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.

I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.

The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right

Parliament voted against the WA because it was too 'Hard' a Brexit. A cross-party, consensual, soft and cosy Brexit would have passed.

However, May was too stupid / pig headed to agree to this, and instead tried to chase the support of the Tory extremists, who have now taken over.

Rejection of the WA was not a cry for No Deal, whatever you and your new hero might think. Parliament will rightfully do whatever it takes to block it from happening.

Morris_Dancer said:

Most Conservative MPs are either overtly pro-EU, or supported the deal. I wonder what they make of the PM's positioning, given they backed him so strongly.

They believed the infamous com res poll at the start of the election process showing that Johnson would win the next election by zillions of seats so decided he would keep them in a job. So it’s not just our own diehard poll believer which pins so much credence on what if polls.

anothernick said:

edmundintokyo said:

hamiltonace said:

It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement.

This is the kind if thing that will kill the Tories if they go through with No Deal. No Deal enthusiasts will just be assuming this stuff has been dealt with.

I think this also shows the (narrow political) wisdom of Labour's strategy of holding back a bit on the VONC etc rather than hitting the government at the first possible opportunity. Once you get to early September businesses will be screaming their disbelief that nobody in government can tell them WTF they're supposed to do to keep doing business at the end of the following month. They really want at least a news cycle of ministers making confused hopeless faces on TV in response to simple questions before it turns to the whole business of bringing the government down and putting Corbyn or some other caretaker in Number 10.

Yes. The VONC has to come when it is clear that chaos looms - when Parliament resumes in October may be the moment.

Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.

TGOHF said:

Stuartinromford said:

TGOHF said:

“Are you arrogant Mr Cummings ?”

“ No”

OMG HOW ARROGANT!

What is a Special Adviser even doing on national TV? If he is the story, that's a massive problem in itself.

Good old Brexit, saving us from unelected bureaucrats...

Sky News doorstepped him. They've had 2 years to do the same to Seamus - haven't quite got round to it yet mind you.

Question for Mr Herdson - what do you think the alternative to Boris's firm timeline approach is ?

Because 3 years of May style dithering has caused untold damage to the Uk and the Con party.

Whilst I yield to no-one in my distaste for public school millionaires with snow on their boots, Seamus is not driving government actions. Pray God he never does. Cummings, however, is.

Charles said:

hamiltonace said:

As a representative of the pharma / Medtech industry I thought I would try to explain the issue we face. It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement. In the meantime the country cannot just act as if nothing has happened. Our industry is naturally cautious and would rather take product off the market than produce it illegally,

This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.

As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.

We can unilaterally continue to recognise the CE mark until the new regime is ready

(Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)

Sorry you are wrong. All medical devices have to have CE mark in order to be marketed, and to get it they need to go through regulatory compliance procedures, either clinical trails or submissions based on predicate. The latest regulations, known as the MDR complicate this further. What will happen after a no-deal Brexit is completely unknown and highly unpredictable. It is extremely concerning for manufacturers, exporters, importers and patients who use the products. So no, CE Mark is not BS at all!! Very far from it.

Charles said:

But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA

Heath got the Accession Treaty through the Commons with the support of pro-EEC Labour MPs like Roy Jenkins and David Owen. That in turn helped develop the split within the Labour party and was a step on the road to the schism of 1981. Heath faced a rebellion on his own side but the rebels got their revenge by ousting him in favour of Thatcher in 1975.

Wilson was, as I recall, fairly agnostic on the EEC but what he wasn't was a doctrinaire Marxist. Corbyn's objection to the WA is that it doesn't come from that perspective and doesn't embody principles around re-nationalisation and workers' rights that would protect such measures from a returning Conservative Government.

The other side is that IF Labour had signed up to the WA and we had left on 29/3, May would have gone, a new Conservative leader immediately calls a GE having delivered Brexit and the Conservatives are back for another 5 years. Labour isn't in the market for doing the Tories those kind of favours. It suits Labour politically to leave the Conservatives with the hot potato to hold as the longer it goes on, so they reason, the closer they get to power.

Motivated self-interest, don't you just love it?

Pulpstar said:

anothernick said:

edmundintokyo said:

hamiltonace said:

It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement.

This is the kind if thing that will kill the Tories if they go through with No Deal. No Deal enthusiasts will just be assuming this stuff has been dealt with.

I think this also shows the (narrow political) wisdom of Labour's strategy of holding back a bit on the VONC etc rather than hitting the government at the first possible opportunity. Once you get to early September businesses will be screaming their disbelief that nobody in government can tell them WTF they're supposed to do to keep doing business at the end of the following month. They really want at least a news cycle of ministers making confused hopeless faces on TV in response to simple questions before it turns to the whole business of bringing the government down and putting Corbyn or some other caretaker in Number 10.

Yes. The VONC has to come when it is clear that chaos looms - when Parliament resumes in October may be the moment.

Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think.

I think you're right. Although, I'm not really sure what Bebb's thought processes are.

Beibheirli_C said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Brooke, I'd suggest the country being led by a man who marches under Stalin banners would not be an improvement.

As opposed to someone who marches under a Benny Hill salute?

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Stuck in the middle .... Gerry Rafferty was a visionary!

Scott_P said:

Pulpstar said:

Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.

Corbyn in power doesn't avoid no deal though. That's the problem

You are right, he wants No Deal

Scott_P said:

Pulpstar said:

Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.

Corbyn in power doesn't avoid no deal though. That's the problem

It would allow an Extension pending a GE or 2nd Ref. That would be sufficient.

Pulpstar said:

Charles said:

TOPPING said:

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.

Opposing the WA had a price tag attached

Labour voted for the referendum, by and large they voted for Article 50 to be triggered. You then Simply must follow through and vote for the deal unless you truly consider "No Deal" to be better than the Withdrawal Agreement which is only really true for those on the spartan wing of the Tory right and which the EU simply won't move on for anyone including Johnson or Corbyn.
Labour has been utterly preposterous on all of this.

I mean, Parliament always has the option of Revoking A50, that is within their power. Whether they will or not, who knows. Whether that is better than the WA, the future will tell.

As a remainer I was unhappy with the method of getting to the WA more than the WA itself; it was harder than I think the 52/48 vote gave a mandate for, but it wasn't the most unreasonable deal I think could have been negotiated. The traitor talk, and the ERG made the whole process seem worse and no attempt was made to include what Remain voters cared about.

With this large a project you need 2/3rds of the public behind you, and no attempt was made to go to soft remain votes and go "what kind of leave could you stomach". That would have put more pressure on Lab and LDs to vote in favour of a deal. It could possibly have still been a pretty hard leave (not that that was what was offered at the ref).

I personally prefer the WA to No Deal, but I still would prefer referendum and revoke to the WA.

Cicero said:

malcolmg said:

FF43 said:

MikeSmithson said:

TGOHF said:

A whole header of virtue signalling.

How very 2019.

What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge

"Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.

Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.

If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.

Well Malcolm, another measured response well supported by evidence. The fact is, as you well know the Lib Dems are on course for a huge upsurge, including against the SNP. The Nationalists are getting a temporary uptick because of the collapse of the Tories in Scotland, but in several areas where the SNP used to be strong, including the Borders and the North East, SNP support is badly faltering.

Weren't you proclaiming the LDs had the SNP beat in the Euros?

It's just that kind of analysis of Scotpol that I come here for. Saying the SNP used to be strong in the Borders is particularly good.

stodge said:

Charles said:

But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA

Heath got the Accession Treaty through the Commons with the support of pro-EEC Labour MPs like Roy Jenkins and David Owen. That in turn helped develop the split within the Labour party and was a step on the road to the schism of 1981. Heath faced a rebellion on his own side but the rebels got their revenge by ousting him in favour of Thatcher in 1975.

Wilson was, as I recall, fairly agnostic on the EEC but what he wasn't was a doctrinaire Marxist. Corbyn's objection to the WA is that it doesn't come from that perspective and doesn't embody principles around re-nationalisation and workers' rights that would protect such measures from a returning Conservative Government.

The other side is that IF Labour had signed up to the WA and we had left on 29/3, May would have gone, a new Conservative leader immediately calls a GE having delivered Brexit and the Conservatives are back for another 5 years. Labour isn't in the market for doing the Tories those kind of favours. It suits Labour politically to leave the Conservatives with the hot potato to hold as the longer it goes on, so they reason, the closer they get to power.

Motivated self-interest, don't you just love it?

Labour are currently getting horrendous Poll ratings, and their performance in a Wales By Election beggared belief. They are now much further from power then they were at the start of the year.

Anorak said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Pulpstar said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.

You’ve left too?

Yes.

See my post at 6:50.

Woah. I missed that.

Shame. Hope you come back soon.

So do I.

Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.

No, extending Article 50 puts us on course to put Corbyn in No 10 and while we might rejoin the single market eventually we will not rejoin the EU and Euro

Brexit has created a highly motivated pro-EU segment of the electorate. Even if the leavers manage to work out how to leave we'll be rejoining. I think we'll probably sign up for the Euro as well. When the dust settles I think even the Conservatives will come round.

Over 40% of voters back No Deal, barely a third at most back joining the Euro even with 48% having voted Remain. If the Euro was a requirement of rejoining the EU it is guaranteed we would never rejoin, when even Sweden and Denmark voted against joining the Euro in referendums they have held on it you can guarantee we would too.

Had the Euro been a requirement of staying in the EU I would have voted Leave not Remain

But had the Euro a requirement and through a strong campaign "remain" had won, you'd have respected the result ?

I have decided Westminster is no longer fit for purpose. Given the choice I would vote for rejoin/Euro/Schengen.

Pre-Brexit I would not have done that.

Snap.

Not Schengen, until the EU comes up with creible means of policing a 9,000 mile border. Otherwise I'm with you.

geoffw said:

hamiltonace said:

I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity

Nasty comment.

Quips about how good it would be if older voters just died off are really quite common, among self-styled virtuous people.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1158983551028781056

This shows what is wrong with pasting tweets, or at least with the way that tweets are displayed in pb.

There is a huge picture of Wee Eck but Scott_P has added no detail as to why he has uploaded it, and nor does the tweet itself tell us anything. What would Salmond do about what?

To find out why we should care about Salmond or even what this great issue might be, we have to follow first the link to the tweet and from there, the link to the newspaper.

Sean_F said:

edmundintokyo said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

The weird thing about this is that a lot of our Labour friends are thinking the same, but the parties can't *both* suffer a crushing defeat. Or rather they could, but realistically how big could the Swinsongasm get?

There's a ceiling to Lib Dem support, as well. They obviously aren't going to get support from Leave voters, and many Remain voters are already committed to Labour, SNP, Plaid, Greens or even the Conservatives.

True but I'll vote Lib Dem next time not with any expectation of it counting for anything under our archaic voting system but simply so I can say with a clear conscience that I did nothing to help the election of either Corbyn or Johnson

I love the sound of Tories squabbling in the morning. Sounds like........ Victory.

CarlottaVance said:

Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

The first one is very funny.

stodge said:

On the "food shortages" question, I'm not expecting people to starve either but we are used, especially in the towns and cities, to being able to walk into a supermarket any hour of the day or night and for that supermarket to have the things we want. I have three 24-hour main supermarkets within walking distance as well as any number of local shops in the Barking Road which claim to be open all the time.

The point is, if my cupboards were bare at 4am, all I need to fill them is the money to buy food and the means to convey said food home.

The disruption of No Deal, as we saw with the 2000 fuel strike, will mean temporary shortages of certain things which will be irritating and confusing but hardly the end of civilisation. I could imagine a bit of panic buying around 31/10 which would exacerbate any problems but we won't run out of milk and bread even if they run short in a few places.

So not quite the end of days then.......

Floater said:

So not quite the end of days then.......

Just "disastrous"

https://twitter.com/BBCr4today/status/1159004394043662336

DecrepitJohnL said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1158983551028781056

This shows what is wrong with pasting tweets, or at least with the way that tweets are displayed in pb.

There is a huge picture of Wee Eck but Scott_P has added no detail as to why he has uploaded it, and nor does the tweet itself tell us anything. What would Salmond do about what?

To find out why we should care about Salmond or even what this great issue might be, we have to follow first the link to the tweet and from there, the link to the newspaper.

Scott still believes the path to government for the Ruth Davidson Party and saving the Union is photos of Eck and having a single policy of no to Indy ref II. Crude but...well, not even effective.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Anorak said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Pulpstar said:

HYUFD said:

Recidivist said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.

You’ve left too?

Yes.

See my post at 6:50.

Woah. I missed that.

Shame. Hope you come back soon.

So do I.

Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.

No, extending Article 50 puts us on course to put Corbyn in No 10 and while we might rejoin the single market eventually we will not rejoin the EU and Euro

Brexit has created a highly motivated pro-EU segment of the electorate. Even if the leavers manage to work out how to leave we'll be rejoining. I think we'll probably sign up for the Euro as well. When the dust settles I think even the Conservatives will come round.

Over 40% of voters back No Deal, barely a third at most back joining the Euro even with 48% having voted Remain. If the Euro was a requirement of rejoining the EU it is guaranteed we would never rejoin, when even Sweden and Denmark voted against joining the Euro in referendums they have held on it you can guarantee we would too.

Had the Euro been a requirement of staying in the EU I would have voted Leave not Remain

But had the Euro a requirement and through a strong campaign "remain" had won, you'd have respected the result ?

I have decided Westminster is no longer fit for purpose. Given the choice I would vote for rejoin/Euro/Schengen.

Pre-Brexit I would not have done that.

Snap.

Not Schengen, until the EU comes up with creible means of policing a 9,000 mile border. Otherwise I'm with you.

I know what you mean, but our geographic distance from said border gives me comfort.

Theuniondivvie said:

Scott still believes the path to government for the Ruth Davidson Party and saving the Union is photos of Eck and having a single policy of no to Indy ref II. Crude but...well, not even effective.

So Divot's answer to the question "What would Eck do" is, "Blame Ruth"

Totally unpredictable, never saw that coming, SNP for the win...

Well, the three activists with whom I consistently felt most aligned and on that proverbial same page have all quit. Astonishing and grotesque that this would have even been contemplated four short years ago.

I'll be staying and fighting. Possibly cowardice and/or just too much of a wrench since first becoming an activist way way back in 1975. But with a song in the heart, I shall demonstrate the same exemplary loyalty to the new regime (including my own MP, who just happens to be Foreign Secretary) as they displayed to their two immediate predecessors.

We will get our party back.

Brexit is a dry run for Sindy, wherein the party of Government morphs from touting the benefits to "we probably won't starve" in a single bound...

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1159034351046332416

Scott_P said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Scott still believes the path to government for the Ruth Davidson Party and saving the Union is photos of Eck and having a single policy of no to Indy ref II. Crude but...well, not even effective.

So Divot's answer to the question "What would Eck do" is, "Blame Ruth"

Totally unpredictable, never saw that coming, SNP for the win...

I'm not much bothered about What would Eck do at the moment, so I wasn't answering that question. I'd suggest he and Ruth Davidson have a similar amount of relevance to current events.

Have you gone back to supporting Indy Ref II yet? Only a matter of time surely.

Brom said:

Anorak said:

Beibheirli_C said:

I have decided Westminster is no longer fit for purpose. Given the choice I would vote for rejoin/Euro/Schengen.

Pre-Brexit I would not have done that.

Snap.

Hilarious. You won't get a chance so it's completely hypothetical. The public want to leave and it's incredible how many adults are stomping their feet about it.

Of *course* it's hypothetical. You could have saved yourself a post by reading Beverly's more carefully: "given the choice" was the giveaway.

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm not much bothered about What would Eck do at the moment

Oh dear. Zoomers have such fickle tastes.

He was the future, once..

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.

Oh come off it Richard, I think it fair to say that it is a mixture of remainers and the fanatical end of Brexiteers that have led us here. Best not debate whether the referendum conforms to basic principles of democracy as I haven't got time as I need to do some work, but lets just say that is questionable at best!

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.

Which bit of democracy? I don’t remember de Tocqueville on the benefits of prorogue first Parliament and grinding your neighbours faces into the dust.

Gardenwalker said:

Floater said:

Gardenwalker said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other

Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.

Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.

daft

are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?

who's reponsible for it ?

*as a result of no deal

I thought that would have been clear.

Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already

we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry

suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece

I’m going to ignore your irrelevant nonsense.

My point stands that Boris and the Conservative Party are responsible for the consequences of THEIR policy. Nobody else.

yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.

If someone dies because their medicine can’t get through Dover as a direct result of a no deal Brexit then Boris and his team are directly responsible for that.

I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.

That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?

People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?

Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.

He raises a fair point - there are medicine shortages unrelated to Brexit. The NHS declines to provide certain care or medicines regularly.

People die because of this.

Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.

It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.

He doesn’t raise a fair point.
Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.

His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.

One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.

Alanbrooke is “bad”.

What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.

Scott_P said:

Another Brexit dividend...

https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1159029657347534848

That doesn't say what you think it says Scott...

tlg86 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

The first one is very funny.

I do love the way David on that tweet thread pretends to know who should be a Conservative and who shouldn't. When one lady mentions that her constituency association has seen an increase in membership, David's response is basically to say that the new people are not real Conservatives.

This goes right to the core of the problem as far as the parties are concerned. In both cases a relatively small clique has long believed that they are the ones who should define what the parties are and what they should stand for even when the membership has been moving away from them. So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

The other thing about this is: Given that our three middle-of-the-road down-the-line Tories have quit the party, how many Tory MPs are thinking the same thing? They're not going to get cabinet jobs any time soon, the things they spent their careers working for are about to blown up, what's the point in carrying on?

ralphmalph said:

I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.

The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.

https://twitter.com/tara_mulholland/status/1158930777209335808

Alanbrooke said:

malcolmg said:

Gardenwalker said:

Floater said:

Gardenwalker said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

Alanbrooke said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

Nope, the WA got us to the transition period, the PD was not binding and the future relationship could have been negotiated in the transition period including even single market membership, you own No Deal by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement as much as any other

Nope. No deal is the fault of the Conservative Party, regardless of how much you protest.

Boris is ultimately responsible for any sufferi to do.

daft

are you saying there isnt suffering, poverty, pain or death now ?

who's reponsible for it ?

*as a result of no deal

I thought that would have been clear.

Im challenging the nonsense that these things dont exist already

we have hundreds of thousands of prema industry

suffering ? Poverty ? Try Greece

I’m going to ignore yy else.

yeah sure, but death suffering etc happen all the time. This will not be new.

If someonele for that.

I’m not saying that will happen, but it’s that sort of thing.

That is literally the job of a leader, to take responsibility for their actions. Are you disputing that?

People are dying today in the UK , of diesel fumes, eating too much, poor health care why arent you screaming ?

Mr Whatabout emerges from under his bridge.

He raises a fair pois regularly.

People die because of this.

Yet only the possibility of a death "caused" by Brexit is worthy of outrage.

It's almost like it is just being used as a stick to bash Brexit rather than due to any care for people.

He doesn’t raise a fair point.
Alanbrooke is a troll who gets hard on people’s suffering.

His one tune is to come on here and make irrelevant accusations while rubbing his hands at the impending bonfire.

One can group ostensibly pro-Brexit posters into stupid, mad, and bad.

Alanbrooke is “bad”.

What a turnip, you are not right in the head, Alan has been posting sense on here for years, long before you appeared.

first he hated the welsh, then he came for the paddies youre up next

I have a zero tolerance policy for crypto-fascists, a category in which I’d place you for sure.

Gardenwalker said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.

Which bit of democracy? I don’t remember de Tocqueville on the benefits of prorogue first Parliament and grinding your neighbours faces into the dust.

Alastair has been scorning democracy since long before the idiotic suggestions about proroguing. Indeed it is the attitude of people like him - and you - that have brought us to this point. Mind you at least you weren't on PB the day after the referendum claiming you had 'lost your country' and that 'The thread of allegiance has been broken'.

Anorak said:

https://twitter.com/tara_mulholland/status/1158930777209335808

And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...

I feel that I am one of the few people who has not moved substantially on the pro-/anti-EU axis in years. For many years I've felt that the EU is an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth but that Britain's membership of it is nevertheless on balance better than any alternative course of action that anyone has come up with. I still have no desire to join the Euro, nor have I fallen in love with the EU, which is still an ungainly lumbering, bureaucratic and corporatist behemoth. But after three years of trying no one has come up with an appetising proposition for Brexit.

Meanwhile, there has been a move all around me to both extremes.

Scott_P said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.

LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.

SandyRentool said:

Anorak said:

https://twitter.com/tara_mulholland/status/1158930777209335808

And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...

An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.

Anorak said:

Brom said:

Anorak said:

Beibheirli_C said:

I have decided Westminster is no longer fit for purpose. Given the choice I would vote for rejoin/Euro/Schengen.

Pre-Brexit I would not have done that.

Snap.

Hilarious. You won't get a chance so it's completely hypothetical. The public want to leave and it's incredible how many adults are stomping their feet about it.

Of *course* it's hypothetical. You could have saved yourself a post by reading Beverly's more carefully: "given the choice" was the giveaway.

Good luck with being given the choice

Not sure many would agree with you headbangers.

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.

I would have voted for the withdrawal agreement, as I regularly made clear. But it was killed by the obsessive opposition of Leavers.

You said that you no longer felt any allegiance to this country simply because you lost a vote. All else should be seen in that light.

https://twitter.com/olivernmoody/status/1159024557845569536

AlastairMeeks said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AlastairMeeks said:

If the withdrawal agreement had ultimately been voted through by Remain voting MPs in the teeth of opposition of Leavers, it would have commanded no legitimacy. The current crisis is a Leaver crisis and reflects their complete lack of positive vision.

It is quite extraordinary that the government is currently blaming the EU for not negotiating when the government literally does not have a preferred outcome that it is seeking to negotiate to.

Desperate spinning by someone who has made clear from the very start they would never accept Brexit under any circumstances.

It is the Remainers who have brought us to the brink of No Deal because they refuse to accept the basic principles of democracy.

I would have voted for the withdrawal agreement, as I regularly made clear. But it was killed by the obsessive opposition of Leavers.

Brexit tenet #1: It's always somebody else's fault.

ralphmalph said:

edmundintokyo said:

The other thing about this is: Given that our three middle-of-the-road down-the-line Tories have quit the party, how many Tory MPs are thinking the same thing? They're not going to get cabinet jobs any time soon, the things they spent their careers working for are about to blown up, what's the point in carrying on?

I am going to assume that we no deal brexit in this comment. I believe that Boris has put a very leave Cabinet together now as a short term measure to ensure Brexit. After brexit if he gets a majority then I believe his next cabinet would be very different. He would, I believe put all factions of the Tory party into cabinet.

If I was a middle of the road Tory MP I would stay because the best hope of getting the Tory Party they support back and a Ministerial career is to Brexit and then move on.

What about Tories who do not believe in Brexit ?

JohnO said:

Well, the three activists with whom I consistently felt most aligned and on that proverbial same page have all quit. Astonishing and grotesque that this would have even been contemplated four short years ago.

I'll be staying and fighting. Possibly cowardice and/or just too much of a wrench since first becoming an activist way way back in 1975. But with a song in the heart, I shall demonstrate the same exemplary loyalty to the new regime (including my own MP, who just happens to be Foreign Secretary) as they displayed to their two immediate predecessors.

We will get our party back.

I hope so, we shall always have our regular lunches and drinks come what may.