politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservative Party is pursuing profoundly un-conservative

Very sad.

I disagree with your politics David but I feel your pain. It's awful when you realise that your party you've been a long standing member of has left you. That the principles you signed on for are no longer part of what the party stands for. That you can't keep going any longer.

Enjoy your liberation.

The low effort shitpost tier image on the article made me laugh so it's not all doom and gloom.

I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.

Sean_F said:

I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.

I don't support the Tories anymore, I resigned my membership some yrs back and don't get many begging letters anymore. I voted LD in the Euros, and its only the danger of Corbyn that will effectively decide how I vote if a GE comes. IF there any chance of Corbyn winning .. jeez.. what to do?

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I see Luke Pollard over at LabourList is blaming the evil water companies and profit stealing for the problems with the Toddbrook Reservoir dam over at Whaly Bridge:
https://labourlist.org/2019/08/the-derbyshire-dam-collapse-shows-we-need-to-transform-our-water-industry/

Unfortunately for him, the dam is owned nad maintained by the Canal and River Trust, a charity that replaced the old British Waterways.
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/

It seems a bit harsh to rant against the evils of the privatised water companies, shareholders and profit-taking, when the problem occurred in an NGO charity. Whilst it can be argued that the CWT should be getting more funding, that's a rather different issue.

And sadly, Labourlist don't allow comments to point this out.

edmundintokyo said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

The weird thing about this is that a lot of our Labour friends are thinking the same, but the parties can't *both* suffer a crushing defeat. Or rather they could, but realistically how big could the Swinsongasm get?

Clothes peg will be clipped to noses and Labour will exceed expectations, I think.

The Conservatives are facing a perfect storm.

Wow! Huge admiration and respect to you, David. We do not share many political views, but I know you to be a good, patriotic man who only wants the best for his country. The Tories cannot afford to lose people like you.

Best wishes - I imagine you are feeling something of an empty sadness this morning. But you have to be true to yourself and your principles. If you could not be that inside the Conservative party anymore, you had no real choice but to go.

Could the last sensible Tory to leave the party turn the lights out?

First Richard Nabavi, now David Herdson, long term the Tory party is screwed without its fiscally dry One Nation wing.

When you fundamentally disagree with the central policy aim of the government and most of its other major policies then it is no longer the party for you.

Like David, I also resigned my membership yesterday, No Deal was already my red line but the Cummings plan on the front of yesterday’s Times was the tipping point. I could live with Brexit but not No Deal. If I wanted to ruin the economy I would have joined the Labour Party.

The other thing that brought it to head was the realisation that if and when Boris crashes and burns the party isn’t going to come to its senses but go for someone even more horrific, like Priti Patel, Steve Baker, or our Corbyn, Andrew Bridgen as next leader.

I joined the party in the 90s my philosophy hasn’t changed but the party has, that we are about to willingly deliver economic damage whilst the same people who back in 2016 said No Deal was Project Fear now say it’ll be fine means I can wash my hands of the looming tempest.

David, I've delurked to say how sad I am for you that it has come to this, although I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis.

I hope the party can return to a place where people like you are part of the process. But at the moment, the party is as bereft of leadership as Corbyn's Labour.

Best,
@dounreay262

Sean_F said:

SquareRoot said:

Sean_F said:

I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.

I don't support the Tories anymore, I resigned my membership some yrs back and don't get many begging letters anymore. I voted LD in the Euros, and its only the danger of Corbyn that will effectively decide how I vote if a GE comes. IF there any chance of Corbyn winning .. jeez.. what to do?

I don't support a No Deal Brexit as my preferred outcome, but I don't want to revoke A.50 either, and don't want a far left government, so that just leaves the Conservatives.

and that's what is so worrying. I don't want them either.

RochdalePioneers said:

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.

Sean_F said:

Flanner said:

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

Much more fundamentally unConservative was the decision to join the EC in 1972. That was a very radical break with all that the Conservatives had believed in, prior to that point, done because the party was terrified of our trade unions and the Soviet Union.

For many Conservatives, leaving the EU is like restoring the monarchy in 1660.

It had its roots in the attitudes of establishment Conservatives. Up until Suez most still thought of the UK as an independent great power and recognised a federalising Europe was a bad fit.

That changed in the late 1950s when establishment Conservatives suffered a catastrophic loss of confidence of the back of it, accompanied with decolonisation accelerating every year, and became inevitable in the 1960s when those underlying attitudes and desire to retain world power status met someone (a new Tory party leader) who was just as ideological about Europe as Jean Monnet.

If we hadn’t joined then I doubt we would have done so in the 1980s, and certainly not after 1985. We probably would have instead negotiated a closer associate status.

RochdalePioneers said:

Will be funny if the last poster on here still an active member of either major party is The Jezziah...

It's gonna be The Jezziah and HYUFD, they'll each pick a leader and you'll be stuck with one of those thanks to FPTP.

David Herdson said:

I have today resigned my membership of the Conservative Party after 24 years. While that’s a moment of some sadness for me, it’s of trivial importance on any wider scale.

Is it of trivial importance?

The risk for the Conservatives is that they are losing a cohort of members with valuable experience of the practical means by which elections are fought and won: canvassing, turning the vote out, etc. Do the entryists from UKIP have those skills?

In the end Herdson may still end up personally voting for Johnson's party. There aren't many obvious centre-right alternatives. I'd suggest that his exit from the party will cost them some votes, though, from voters he might otherwise have persuaded.

A brave and principled lead from David; respect and kudos.

I wonder whether Cummings, even with Bozo’s backing, is going to reach a point where his egg-breaking no surrender strategy becomes too much even for the current bunch of Tory MPs?

Taking control of a referendum campaign, a transient entity staffed by relatively few people, is a lot easier than getting the whole of government - a large number of elected politicians backed by countless advisers and civil servants, and usually responsive to all manner of pressure from the public, electors, media, the law, vested interests and opinion leaders - to pursue a path of scorched earth or burning bridges, or whatever analogy we might choose. There could easily become a point where he has generated so much counter-action that Bozo has to tell him to stop.

TheScreamingEagles said:

First Richard Nabavi, now David Herdson, long term the Tory party is screwed without its fiscally dry One Nation wing.

When you fundamentally disagree with the central policy aim of the government and most of its other major policies then it is no longer the party for you.

Like David, I also resigned my membership yesterday, No Deal was already my red line but the Cummings plan on the front of yesterday’s Times was the tipping point. I could live with Brexit but not No Deal. If I wanted to ruin the economy I would have joined the Labour Party.

The other thing that brought it to head was the realisation that if and when Boris crashes and burns the party isn’t going to come to its senses but go for someone even more horrific, like Priti Patel, Steve Baker, or our Corbyn, Andrew Bridgen as next leader.

I joined the party in the 90s my philosophy hasn’t changed but the party has, that we are about to willingly deliver economic damage whilst the same people who back in 2016 said No Deal was Project Fear now say it’ll be fine means I can wash my hands of the looming tempest.

You, too, TSE? Bloody hell. The Tory retreat into populist English nationalism will deliver short-term electoral benefits and profound long-term damage, both for the party and the country. People like you, David and Richard Nabavi will no doubt have to return to pick up the pieces at some point. The UK (probably England by then) needs a rational centre-right, pro-business party. It doesn’t have one currently.

Flanner said:

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

OblitusSumMe said:

David Herdson said:

I have today resigned my membership of the Conservative Party after 24 years. While that’s a moment of some sadness for me, it’s of trivial importance on any wider scale.

Is it of trivial importance?

The risk for the Conservatives is that they are losing a cohort of members with valuable experience of the practical means by which elections are fought and won: canvassing, turning the vote out, etc. Do the entryists from UKIP have those skills?

In the end Herdson may still end up personally voting for Johnson's party. There aren't many obvious centre-right alternatives. I'd suggest that his exit from the party will cost them some votes, though, from voters he might otherwise have persuaded.

I doubt David Herdson will vote for Johnson's Conservatives since he left the party because of him and his policies. Unless, of course, he gets along well with his local candidate.

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

Isn't it illegal under GDPR to retain personal information for that length of time?

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.

You’ve left too?

Yes.

See my post at 6:50.

Woah. I missed that.

Shame. Hope you come back soon.

Recidivist said:

The Conservative Party as we have known it has ceased to exist. I wonder what comes next?

The Maggies Party.

A party based on how Thatcher governed.

Pro-EC, fiscally responsible, pro business, socially liberal (section 28 apart), helping plebs do well out of their lives, radical reform of public services.

Pulpstar said:

Flanner said:

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

Yep. This.

And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.

ydoethur said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

Isn't it illegal under GDPR to retain personal information for that length of time?

Yes. There must (under law) be a simple way for people to request that the party deletes their data and stops contacting them.

It's not a surprise that the party under Corbyn lacks the administrative competence to implement that.

surbiton19 said:

So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?

surbiton19 said:

I am not a Conservative of course. But yesterday's leak that Johnson will not accept a VoNC defeat must have come as a profound shock and something seriously to worry about. What would they have said, if Corbyn did that ?

Quite.

HMQ launches operation Gough Whitlam.

surbiton19 said:

Charles said:

surbiton19 said:

So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?

He did just after Johnson became PM. He also wrote a header for PB.

I’ve been on the beach... PB gets less attention... 😄

Casino_Royale said:

Pulpstar said:

Flanner said:

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

Yep. This.

And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.

If the WA was passed then we would have decided now the sort of post EU future we want. Close would be my guess. Anyhow sterling and the economy would have been stable enough ! Only those socially wedded to the EU would have been unhappy

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.

You’ve left too?

Yes.

See my post at 6:50.

Woah. I missed that.

Shame. Hope you come back soon.

So do I.

Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.

SouthamObserver said:

TGOHF said:

MikeSmithson said:

TGOHF said:

A whole header of virtue signalling.

How very 2019.

What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge

His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

Reminds me of a joke -

How do you know someone is a vegan ?

Don’t worry they will have already told you.

TGOHF - you are signalling your virtues are very different to David’s. You are a virtue signaller.

I think the opposite of 'virtue signalling' is 'vice signalling.'

Charles said:

surbiton19 said:

Charles said:

surbiton19 said:

So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?

He did just after Johnson became PM. He also wrote a header for PB.

I’ve been on the beach... PB gets less attention... 😄

Well, put it this way - Boris Johnson becoming leader has been making waves among the saner and more intelligent Tories on here.

Casino_Royale said:

Pulpstar said:

Flanner said:

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

Yep. This.

And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.

That is why the WA could not be divorced from the PD. A PD that was significantly softer, with Single Market alignment and Customs Union might have passed the Commons. May and the Tories could not be trusted on these so the opposition were right to vote against.

All water under the bridge now. The loonies are now in charge.

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Pulpstar said:

Flanner said:

This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

Yep. This.

And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.

That is why the WA could not be divorced from the PD. A PD that was significantly softer, with Single Market alignment and Customs Union might have passed the Commons. May and the Tories could not be trusted on these so the opposition were right to vote against.

All water under the bridge now. The loonies are now in charge.

Except - passing the WA would almost certainly have triggered a general election, as the DUP would have switched to opposition.

So either (a) Corbyn is so stupid he doesn't know how to count or (b) he was opposed to the WA because he genuinely wants to leave with no deal.

I may be being unfair, of course. It may be both.

surbiton19 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.

If anyone missed the RLB interview on ch4 news last night it’s worth tracking down and watching especially if you think labour are now a remain or even 2nd referendum party

If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

TheScreamingEagles said:

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.

You’ve left too?

Yes.

See my post at 6:50.

I let my membership of the LIb Dems expire in June.

IanB2 said:

David Howard (fleetingly of this parish) on R4 just before the 0700 news explaining why the speaker allowing an emergency debate and suspension of SO24 are key to MPs taking control of the agenda and stopping a no deal exit.

I was supposed to be on to explain why Martha was wrong to say in her introduction to her interview with Jonathan Sumption yesterday that before the Fixed-term Parliaments Act a vote of no confidence led automatically to an election (fall of Baldwin in 1924, Lascelles/'Senex' letter of 1950 and all that). But apparently it's No Deal Brexit day on the BBC so interest in history has been abandoned in favour of fevered speculation about the future!

So PB ex Tories is now a thing.

fox327 said:

Let's suppose that there is a VONC which the government loses. After talks have taken place, a new government is ready to be formed but Boris Johnson won't resign as PM. Suppose then that the Queen dismisses Johnson as Prime Minister and appoints LOTO (say) as Prime Minister but Johnson still will not leave No. 10. The new person appointed as Prime Minister will be legally the head of HMG and can attend talks with the EU and agree an extension to Article 50 until a general election has taken place.

Helpfully, in that scenario Johnson would be guilty of high treason and could just be arrested.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/06/peoples-boris-cant-beat-parliament-prepare-prime-minister-ken/

The Telegraph are worried that Ken Clarke will replace “the People’s Boris” (yes, that is really their headline)

surbiton19 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.

Labour is so buggered. And it’s not just Brexit. McDonnell backing a new Scottish independence referendum has cost it all its Scottish seats - and probably a fair few in England, too.

@IanB2 FPT voting leave was not a mistake

The execution of Brexit has been appalling

Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive

But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)

TGOHF said:

MikeSmithson said:

TGOHF said:

A whole header of virtue signalling.

How very 2019.

What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge

His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

Reminds me of a joke -

How do you know someone is a vegan ?

Don’t worry they will have already told you.

I think you’re being very unfair on David. He really isn’t like that.

I’m upset and shocked too but we don’t need to snipe at him. He’ll feel awful as it is.

SouthamObserver said:

surbiton19 said:

SouthamObserver said:

RochdalePioneers said:

I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.

Labour is so buggered. And it’s not just Brexit. McDonnell backing a new Scottish independence referendum has cost it all its Scottish seats - and probably a fair few in England, too.

McDonnell is just accepting political reality. If Holyrood votes for a further Sindyref, it is politically impossible to deny it.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1158986030630035456

Well, the baby boomers wanted to invoke the WWII spirit, a bit of rationing will get the party started nicely.

Slice of powdered egg and turnip pie, anyone?