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Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
Cambell was the Dominic Cummings of his day, but that day is long gone.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.0 -
As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.noneoftheabove said:
Why not make it tomorrow then?HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
Boris will just refuse further extension in October0 -
Buy shares in mint sauce.kjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
Difficult to disagree with any of what he wrote.AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.0 -
Or perhaps they could just get on and do as they have been fucking told by the voters?williamglenn said:
Perhaps you could mitigate the risk by holding a people’s vote on whether to send the letter.MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respectedkjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
The remain voting workers will be subsidising the leave voting sheep farmers for decades to come. Apparently this is fair because anyone who rents a small flat in a city is part of the elite and they need to share the wealth with those worthy of state benefits who own acres of land.kjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
Of course the reverse could also be observed. No more enthusiastic proponent for both the Iraq war (before it was a twinkle in Ali Campbell's rheumy eye) and Brexit than IDS.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]Gardenwalker said:
Brexit began with the Iraq War.IanB2 said:
He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.Cyclefree said:
Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.0 -
Have you forgotten? The refugee crisis took months to resolve, and the Eurozone crisis years, and arguably still isn't resolved. Greece is on its third round of bailouts and might still need another of some sort.eek said:
Yes because those crisis started quickly and needed immediate responses.Endillion said:
Aw, that's nice. They think we're more important than the Eurozone debt crisis and the refugee crisis, both of which had compromise solutions cobbled together at 3am. The former, on multiple occasions.Scott_P said:
This is a meeting on October 17th to rubberstamp discussions made over the next 2 months0 -
As you say, they voted for it.HYUFD said:
Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respectedkjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
No sympathy.
Prepare the pyres.0 -
So no different than happens at the moment then.noneoftheabove said:
The remain voting workers will be subsidising the leave voting sheep farmers for decades to come. Apparently this is fair because anyone who rents a small flat in a city is part of the elite and they need to share the wealth with those worthy of state benefits who own acres of land.kjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
That will never happen. This country is do ridiculously tribal the messenger is the message.AlastairMeeks said:
As he says at the end, look at the message not the messenger.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen his position.0 -
Ha Ha Ha Ha, one of those Boos may have incapacitated him right enough. He is a big jessie boy, scared to face public opinion and has to have only hand picked ar*e lickers before he can try to act the big man. Cowardy Custard ran away.HYUFD said:
Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and offmalcolmg said:
Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.HYUFD said:
He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journeymalcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.0 -
He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.HYUFD said:
As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.noneoftheabove said:
Why not make it tomorrow then?HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
Boris will just refuse further extension in October
Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?0 -
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
Ask Boris, hes the one eliminating many options in pursuit of it. Even if no deal cannot be prepared he has committed.noneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.0 -
So you weren't listening then re your comments about extra internal/external markets on 1 Nov.HYUFD said:
Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respectedkjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Yes lots voted leave. I have done many stupid things in my time as well.
So when you make a decision you must go through with it regardless. No option to re-evaluate. I refer you to my admission that I have made many stupid decisions in my time. If I followed through with every one I wouldn't be here to type now.
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What about the press secretary that Johnson presumably appointed?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
Yes, he is saying nothing that has not been said before by many others, many times and in many ways. It is however a comprehensive summary of the case against Corbyn's Labour.Cyclefree said:
He’s saying - rather more lengthily - what has been said on here. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/07/25/the-current-lab-corbyn-approach-raises-the-question-what-are-oppositions-for/AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
I doubt we wil see any answer other than ad hominem dismissals.0 -
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
Mr. Punter, ha. The irony of Campbell suffering an ad hominem dismissal.
Interesting suggestion earlier that Corbyn might be ready to pack it in.0 -
To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?noneoftheabove said:
He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.HYUFD said:
As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.noneoftheabove said:
Why not make it tomorrow then?HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
Boris will just refuse further extension in October
Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?0 -
Of course - but the bulk of the BSF investment was in large scale projects, most of which were PFI.Nemtynakht said:
And not all spending was done on a PFI basis. In fact the BSF projects I worked on were not PFI but quite small scale , minor alteration / refurbishment schemes.Nigelb said:
It is perhaps a something of an exaggeration to say that there was no improvement in school buildings, but from everything II have read, and from my own local experience, it is absolutely true that enormous resources were wasted, and the multi decade contracts will be a continuing burden.ydoethur said:
Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.bigjohnowls said:
Huge capital investment in new school buildingsydoethur said:
Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'Gallowgate said:I like Alastair Campbell 🤷♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...
He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn.
BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
The contracts for two projects I have most knowledge of have been resold three times since the work was carried out - each time at a profit. One of the schools went in to special measures and came very close to closing, before being absorbed into a MAT.
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And right now they are extremely worried.HYUFD said:
Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respectedkjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
If you believe the role of government is to punish people for their own mistakes, that is your affair. I doubt there would be a happy ending to such a course.
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Solution to what? There's no majority in parliament for no deal.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
Yes but extra pay may improve retention, delay retirement and enable higher quality of recruitment. It is investment in the workforce and in teaching they are critical to the final product.Nemtynakht said:
Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.felix said:
I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.ydoethur said:
Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'Gallowgate said:I like Alastair Campbell 🤷♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...
He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn.0 -
rkrkrk said:
But apart from more teachers, better paid teachers, new school buildings, sure start... When did Labour ever invest in education?bigjohnowls said:
Huge capital investment in new school buildingsydoethur said:Gallowgate said:I like Alastair Campbell 🤷♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...
He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn.
It’s not pedantary. Capital Investment is one thing. Revenue spending is another. Should we do both. Of course.noneoftheabove said:
Of course salaries have an investment effect. Of course that impact is smaller than the investment effect of building a whole new school where it is needed.Nemtynakht said:
Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.felix said:
I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.ydoethur said:
Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'Gallowgate said:I like Alastair Campbell 🤷♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...
He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn.
Teachers salaries are a big driver for retention, motivation, training and recruitment - if salaries are low, the above all drop and future teaching becomes worse, if salaries are high future teaching become better.
This is pedantry gone wrong.
Salaries are by their nature dynamic. Just because salaries go up doesn’t necessarily mean future teaching becomes better. If other options for the relevant graduates have even higher salaries or better terms and conditions then there might not be the desired effect.
There seem to be a lot of things outside salaries that contribute to retention of teaching staff like workload, Ofsted, school management, frequency of changes to curriculum, general school budgets, availability and levels of support staff.0 -
I'd support him delaying of course but hes nailed his trousers to the mast and BXP would eat him alive for the delay. He was going to win anyway I don't know why he felt the need to be do or die about the date - committing no matter what is legitimately crazy since it openly says even if it was terrible and 1 week delay would make it ok he wont do it, evidence be damned.noneoftheabove said:
To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?noneoftheabove said:
He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.HYUFD said:
As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.noneoftheabove said:
Why not make it tomorrow then?HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
Boris will just refuse further extension in October
Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
Now, someone will say leaving on the date will be fine but that's not the point- hes saying we would do so even if it were not fine.0 -
I think I can understand the view of Leavers who see it as an issue of trust. Another delay, with another excuse, what's to stop another delay after that?noneoftheabove said:
To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?noneoftheabove said:
He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.HYUFD said:
As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.noneoftheabove said:
Why not make it tomorrow then?HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
Boris will just refuse further extension in October
Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
The economic numbers, while doubtless based on the best economics has to offer (in your scenario) are still only hypothetical, but the leaving of the EU would be categorical. And the trust in government institutions has been undermined, so why would they trust the hypothetical figures?
Of course, the date is not important. If MPs were in favour the date could be brought forward.1 -
'heir to Thatcher'El_Capitano said:
He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
The issue or plan is that it might (or eventually will) stick...Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
How long have you been on PB?El_Capitano said:
He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
It’s the lizard people of Finchley Road.
They spend their days plotting world domination / processing company formations.0 -
It was a general point on how things have gone not a specific one- both sides have continually insisted no movement on things and acted as though it's as immutable as a law of nature to disguise that their stances are political posturing.williamglenn said:
Solution to what? There's no majority in parliament for no deal.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
To add, as a GM school we used exta money from all governments for more staff and building projects none of which were based on PFI. We managed our budget carefully and always sought the best value in both bricks and mortar as well as quality teachers and opther staff.felix said:
Yes but extra pay may improve retention, delay retirement and enable higher quality of recruitment. It is investment in the workforce and in teaching they are critical to the final product.Nemtynakht said:
Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.felix said:
I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.ydoethur said:
Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'Gallowgate said:I like Alastair Campbell 🤷♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...
He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn.0 -
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.-1 -
Well, I don't - I've been in favour of PR all my life and was an active member of the Labour Campaign for Electoral Reform. In the current situation with mulriple medium-sized parties it's even more sensible.IanB2 said:
All perfectly logical, except that the party clings to a voting system that forces exactly the kind of calculation that you so clearly don’t want to make.NickPalmer said:
It's always a balance, isn't it? To take that argument to its conclusion, say we were sure we could win if we were led by George Galloway or Nigel Farage. It wouldn't be worth it, because we'd be embarrassed by the government that we'd helped elect. So you try to pick someone whose views you agree with and has a fair chance of winning. To pick someone of moderate popularity whose views are relatively unappealing because (s)he'd have a 10% better chance of winning puts the cart (trying to win) before the horse (deciding what you want to achieve). If there was a brilliant, popular, reasonably left-wing alternative, that could be different.SandyRentool said:
That sounds suspiciously like a "Purity of Opposition" post Nick.
As for Campbell, members' simple reaction will be that it's good we pushed him before he jumped, since he was obviously poised to go.
But anyway I was disagreeing with PfP's betting post on what would actually happen this year (he was advising bets on Corbyn leaving), rather than especially reflecting my own view.0 -
"It’s not pedantary. Capital Investment is one thing. Revenue spending is another. Should we do both. Of course.
Salaries are by their nature dynamic. Just because salaries go up doesn’t necessarily mean future teaching becomes better. If other options for the relevant graduates have even higher salaries or better terms and conditions then there might not be the desired effect.
There seem to be a lot of things outside salaries that contribute to retention of teaching staff like workload, Ofsted, school management, frequency of changes to curriculum, general school budgets, availability and levels of support staff."
All the above is true, apart from the first bit, it is pedantry. Salaries going up doesnt necessarily make future teaching better, but nor does building new schools. Salaries going up does make future teaching likely to be better than if salaries had flatlined, as does building new schools. Both have an investment impact.0 -
-
Mr. kle4, it's entirely possible that macho bullshit and fear of 'losing face' by being the one to apparently back down will see both sides refuse to budge. We leave with no deal. Nobody's happy. [Well, very few].0
-
Reincarnation of Churchill I think you mean.Theuniondivvie said:
'heir to Thatcher'El_Capitano said:
He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
Don't talk crap, he is the head honcho , if he had any gumption he would have told them he was leaving by the front door. Europeans must be wetting themselves having to negotiate with someone so tough that he has to slink out the back door scared witless by a few boos from a perfectly law abiding group of people.Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
I can only describe the other side of PFI which people forget. In this case the local authority had a BSF programme. This consisted of big schemes possibly funded by PFI that I was not involved in, but that then freed up additional smaller amounts of money to be spent across other schools that were not getting a big project. I remember discussing one project with a bursar as we were over budget and they had built up some cash reserves that they built up specifically for a project which was unlocked more quickly with the BSF funding.Nigelb said:
Of course - but the bulk of the BSF investment was in large scale projects, most of which were PFI.Nemtynakht said:
And not all spending was done on a PFI basis. In fact the BSF projects I worked on were not PFI but quite small scale , minor alteration / refurbishment schemes.Nigelb said:
It is perhaps a something of an exaggeration to say that there was no improvement in school buildings, but from everything II have read, and from my own local experience, it is absolutely true that enormous resources were wasted, and the multi decade contracts will be a continuing burden.ydoethur said:
Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.bigjohnowls said:
Huge capital investment in new school buildingsydoethur said:
Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'Gallowgate said:I like Alastair Campbell 🤷♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...
He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn.
BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
The contracts for two projects I have most knowledge of have been resold three times since the work was carried out - each time at a profit. One of the schools went in to special measures and came very close to closing, before being absorbed into a MAT.0 -
I sympathise with leavers as they were lied to by May about definitely leaving on a certain date. The answer to that is not a new PM lying to them about a different date, that is not even fully within his control.OblitusSumMe said:
I think I can understand the view of Leavers who see it as an issue of trust. Another delay, with another excuse, what's to stop another delay after that?noneoftheabove said:
To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?noneoftheabove said:
He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.HYUFD said:
As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.noneoftheabove said:
Why not make it tomorrow then?HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
Boris will just refuse further extension in October
Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
The economic numbers, while doubtless based on the best economics has to offer (in your scenario) are still only hypothetical, but the leaving of the EU would be categorical. And the trust in government institutions has been undermined, so why would they trust the hypothetical figures?
Of course, the date is not important. If MPs were in favour the date could be brought forward.0 -
If by "press secretary" you mean "security officer" and by "appointed" you mean "had sent to him by the Met", then sure, blame him.Gardenwalker said:
What about the press secretary that Johnson presumably appointed?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.0 -
I'm afraid that has now been relegated to only the second most exciting vast conspiracy that I am tangentially connected with, behind the way that the government uses my firm to exert pressure on the EHRC to torment the Labour party.Gardenwalker said:
How long have you been on PB?El_Capitano said:
He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
It’s the lizard people of Finchley Road.
They spend their days plotting world domination / processing company formations.0 -
That has long looked like what will happen, unless remainers get their way. Now both sides pretty much want no deal because the situation now is who wins. If the EU shift on the WA they 'lose' even if it means a deal which is good for them. If the UK accepts the WA as is or accepts some fudged wording on the PD we 'lose' even if it means a deal which prevents a great deal of disruption, and even though we know Boris accepted the WA before.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it's entirely possible that macho bullshit and fear of 'losing face' by being the one to apparently back down will see both sides refuse to budge. We leave with no deal. Nobody's happy. [Well, very few].
The backstop does not even matter anymore, it's just a point the public can mostly understand as that awful/necessary thing which the bad guys want to preserve/eliminate.0 -
Would it be totally inappropriate to say that I'm sure Merkel is shaking in her boots?malcolmg said:
Don't talk crap, he is the head honcho , if he had any gumption he would have told them he was leaving by the front door. Europeans must be wetting themselves having to negotiate with someone so tough that he has to slink out the back door scared witless by a few boos from a perfectly law abiding group of people.Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
Yes, I think it would.0 -
Gardenwalker said:FF43 said:
He stopped fractionally short of lying but he tortured the evidence to get the answer he wanted in support of the wrong policy.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]Gardenwalker said:
Brexit began with the Iraq War.IanB2 said:
He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.Cyclefree said:
Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
I
You are right about both.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.0 -
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
Yeah I probably get a lot of things wrong but there have been two events during my lifetime when I have been absolutely sure the country was making a terrible mistake: Iraq and Brexit. At least with Iraq you could argue that it was going to happen with or without us. But Brexit? All on us, sadly.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]Gardenwalker said:
Brexit began with the Iraq War.IanB2 said:
He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.Cyclefree said:
Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.0 -
The comparison is not equal.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
That is because we did actually invade Iraq. "Three years in ...."
We have not yet Brexited. We are still talking about it.
0 -
Brexiters are the proverbial Brits abroad, talking more loudly in order to be understood and eventually waving money around in the belief that the wogs (who start at Calais) are all bribable.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
Heir to Thatcher - Boris Johnson - Absolutely NoTheuniondivvie said:
'heir to Thatcher'El_Capitano said:
He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?Endillion said:
Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.Gardenwalker said:
Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.HYUFD said:
By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).malcolmg said:
Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.Gallowgate said:
Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!malcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
Hair to Thatcher - Michael Fabricant - Absolutely Yes
No Heir or Hair to Thatcher - Mike Smithson - No Bar Chart Required.0 -
If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.
Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.0 -
Life is full of such ironies, MD! It remains wise however to look at the message rather than the messenger.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Punter, ha. The irony of Campbell suffering an ad hominem dismissal.
Interesting suggestion earlier that Corbyn might be ready to pack it in.0 -
Bribable or responsive to a bit of bullying (eg the Irish).Gardenwalker said:
Brexiters are the proverbial Brits abroad, talking more loudly in order to be understood and eventually waving money around in the belief that the wogs (who start at Calais) are all bribable.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
The real issue is that if the EU moves can Boris guarantee and the EU would want a guarantee that he can get it through parliament. The EU can do the maths and they know the only way a deal is getting through, is if Corbyn and Boris both say they support it and there is no chance of that.kle4 said:
That has long looked like what will happen, unless remainers get their way. Now both sides pretty much want no deal because the situation now is who wins. If the EU shift on the WA they 'lose' even if it means a deal which is good for them. If the UK accepts the WA as is or accepts some fudged wording on the PD we 'lose' even if it means a deal which prevents a great deal of disruption, and even though we know Boris accepted the WA before.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it's entirely possible that macho bullshit and fear of 'losing face' by being the one to apparently back down will see both sides refuse to budge. We leave with no deal. Nobody's happy. [Well, very few].
The backstop does not even matter anymore, it's just a point the public can mostly understand as that awful/necessary thing which the bad guys want to preserve/eliminate.0 -
Shouldn't there be an 'innocent face' after that?Cyclefree said:
The difficulty is that they are not just ignoring this messenger but their own MPs, members and voters. Anyone who makes the slightest criticism however justified is ignored, traduced and attacked.Nigelb said:
Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.Cyclefree said:
Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.
He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
Imagine such a cabal in government with the powers of the state at their disposal.0 -
They often do. But people ignored how strident they were.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:0 -
I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.0
-
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.0 -
Mrs Richards - leaverGardenwalker said:I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.
Lord Melbury - leaver, in the cabinet
Mr Hutchinson - leaver, active on guido and conhome
The Major - remainer, he fought in the war0 -
The EU were correct in the short term as they knew May had the spine of a jellyfish.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
Longer term their actions may not pan out to be correct.0 -
Or perhaps it was the Attorney Generals advice that May had to follow parliaments wishes in the Cooper Letwin bill that led them to know that they were correct.TGOHF said:
The EU were correct in the short term as they knew May had the spine of a jellyfish.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
Longer term their actions may not pan out to be correct.
Playing poker when your opponent can not only see your cards, but knows that they are already in the muck is not a test of your spine or character but a losing game, whoever the PM was.0 -
Bold assumption on the EU's part that Boris Johnson will still be Prime Minister on 17 October.0
-
I think the pound dropping below parity against the Euro will be a game changer ...
Blimey and I shudder to think what the news coverage would be like if it did the same against the dollar.0 -
A Leaver in the Wetherspoon's mould, quite keen on employing staff from the EU. (And just to forestall any pedantic comments, I am aware that Spain wasn't a member of the EU when Fawlty Towers was made!)Gardenwalker said:I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.
0 -
Agreed. I have no argument with Campbell's letter; it just won't make any difference.Cyclefree said:
The difficulty is that they are not just ignoring this messenger but their own MPs, members and voters. Anyone who makes the slightest criticism however justified is ignored, traduced and attacked.Nigelb said:
Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.Cyclefree said:
Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.ydoethur said:
When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:AlastairMeeks said:This feels quite important:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21
The sands are shifting.
How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?
More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.
He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
Imagine such a cabal in government with the powers of the state at their disposal.0 -
Just so that everyone can appreciate the wit of that:noneoftheabove said:
Mrs Richards - leaverGardenwalker said:I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.
Lord Melbury - leaver, in the cabinet
Mr Hutchinson - leaver, active on guido and conhome
The Major - remainer, he fought in the war
Mrs Richards - lady with hearing aid
Lord Melbury - con man with a suitcase full of bricks
Mr Hutchinson - Bernard Cribbins0 -
-
Crap Boris went to Ednburgh and faced ranting nats head on, what do you want Boris to have a punch up with them on the way out?malcolmg said:
Ha Ha Ha Ha, one of those Boos may have incapacitated him right enough. He is a big jessie boy, scared to face public opinion and has to have only hand picked ar*e lickers before he can try to act the big man. Cowardy Custard ran away.HYUFD said:
Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and offmalcolmg said:
Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.HYUFD said:
He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journeymalcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.0 -
Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracynoneoftheabove said:
If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.
Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.0 -
Opinium has 45% of voters now backing No Deal, more than the 28% for revoke and the 13% for extend again combined in its latest poll and political report last weekendkjh said:
So you weren't listening then re your comments about extra internal/external markets on 1 Nov.HYUFD said:
Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respectedkjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Yes lots voted leave. I have done many stupid things in my time as well.
So when you make a decision you must go through with it regardless. No option to re-evaluate. I refer you to my admission that I have made many stupid decisions in my time. If I followed through with every one I wouldn't be here to type now.
https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/0 -
This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.
If Britain wins, then the tories will land the biggest majority since Thatcher.
But this isn't 1982. The EU is not an 'enemy,' despite what Bonkers Boris believes and they're not a bunch of amateurish Argentinians who would rather be back home.0 -
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!0 -
take a breakMysticrose said:This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.
0 -
0
-
I wasnt making a judgement call on if Iraq was well handled or not, right or wrong, I'm sure that has been done endlessly. It is more that whilst people may deny reality in the present, if something goes very wrong, then people either forget, or are embarrassed and lie, about their past held views.HYUFD said:
Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracynoneoftheabove said:
If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.
Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.0 -
And there are no tanks in Baghdad?HYUFD said:
Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracynoneoftheabove said:
If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.
Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.0 -
I thought there was still a big issue around Kurdistan, and that there were still elements of ISIS about.HYUFD said:
Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracynoneoftheabove said:
If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.
Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.0 -
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,0 -
(Whoosh...)HYUFD said:
Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracynoneoftheabove said:
If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.FF43 said:
One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.Gardenwalker said:
You are right about both.FF43 said:
When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.Endillion said:
[Citation needed]
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.
I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.
Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.0 -
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.0 -
of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,Gardenwalker said:
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
it takes two to tango0 -
The difference is this time we have the Exocets trained on ourselves and, in place of mid air refuelling, the Vulcans will be reaching Port Stanley airfield on pure optimism.Mysticrose said:This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.
If Britain wins, then the tories will land the biggest majority since Thatcher.
But this isn't 1982. The EU is not an 'enemy,' despite what Bonkers Boris believes and they're not a bunch of amateurish Argentinians who would rather be back home.0 -
Rather agree; far too much trust was placed in both the probity of the auditors and the soundness of the Greek tax system.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,0 -
If there are problems then the best person to make preparations is someone who recognises what the problems are, that way they can identify and deal with them.Gardenwalker said:0 -
What a lickspittle you are. Pathetic reply. Your choice of words "ranting" - what a loser , they were exercising their public right to show their opinion of him , peacefully. He is such a shallow ego that it was too much for him that he CHOSE to slink out the back door rather than hear people booing him. I am sure he would have done the same if they had been cheering and chanting his nameHYUFD said:
Crap Boris went to Ednburgh and faced ranting nats head on, what do you want Boris to have a punch up with them on the way out?malcolmg said:
Ha Ha Ha Ha, one of those Boos may have incapacitated him right enough. He is a big jessie boy, scared to face public opinion and has to have only hand picked ar*e lickers before he can try to act the big man. Cowardy Custard ran away.HYUFD said:
Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and offmalcolmg said:
Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.HYUFD said:
He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journeymalcolmg said:PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.
It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
.
Then you suggest he punches people, are you totally stark raving mad enough to suggest the |PM should get involved in a punch up just because he is criticised.
You have become unhinged.0 -
If Gove has balls he’d reiterate that No Deal is a disaster, as he used to concede when he was Environment Sec.Philip_Thompson said:
If there are problems then the best person to make preparations is someone who recognises what the problems are, that way they can identify and deal with them.Gardenwalker said:0 -
I believe the lowest level the £ has ever fallen to against the $ was £1.05 in 1985.Mysticrose said:I think the pound dropping below parity against the Euro will be a game changer ...
Blimey and I shudder to think what the news coverage would be like if it did the same against the dollar.
Perhaps heir to Thatcher isn't so fanciful.0 -
One good consequence of Brexit, our office's internal rates of return on our pension pots are all heading north.
My colleague has hit 11.9% compound growth !
9.5% here.0 -
Pro_Rata said:
The difference is this time we have the Exocets trained on ourselves and, in place of mid air refuelling, the Vulcans will be reaching Port Stanley airfield on pure optimism.Mysticrose said:This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.
If Britain wins, then the tories will land the biggest majority since Thatcher.
But this isn't 1982. The EU is not an 'enemy,' despite what Bonkers Boris believes and they're not a bunch of amateurish Argentinians who would rather be back home.
0 -
I met a redneck on a Grecian isleAlanbrooke said:
of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,Gardenwalker said:
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
it takes two to tango
Who did the goat dance very well
He gave me back my smile
But he kept my camera to sell0 -
err rightGardenwalker said:
I met a redneck on a Grecian isleAlanbrooke said:
of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,Gardenwalker said:
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
it takes two to tango
Who did the goat dance very well
He gave me back my smile
But he kept my camera to sell0 -
Were his omelettes and stews any good?Gardenwalker said:
I met a redneck on a Grecian isleAlanbrooke said:
of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,Gardenwalker said:
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
it takes two to tango
Who did the goat dance very well
He gave me back my smile
But he kept my camera to sell0 -
For someone who suggested I take a break you're not exactly making scintillating contributions to the debate this morning ...Alanbrooke said:
err rightGardenwalker said:
I met a redneck on a Grecian isleAlanbrooke said:
of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,Gardenwalker said:
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
it takes two to tango
Who did the goat dance very well
He gave me back my smile
But he kept my camera to sell
FWIW I think my comparison to the Falklands War, whilst flowery, is apposite. Stop and think about it for a moment on a number of levels.0 -
?!! What has that got to do with my post and the inept minister on radio 4 this morning.HYUFD said:
Opinium has 45% of voters now backing No Deal, more than the 28% for revoke and the 13% for extend again combined in its latest poll and political report last weekendkjh said:
So you weren't listening then re your comments about extra internal/external markets on 1 Nov.HYUFD said:
Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respectedkjh said:
Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.HYUFD said:
As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head onnoneoftheabove said:
October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?MarqueeMark said:
He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.SouthamObserver said:
If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
Yes lots voted leave. I have done many stupid things in my time as well.
So when you make a decision you must go through with it regardless. No option to re-evaluate. I refer you to my admission that I have made many stupid decisions in my time. If I followed through with every one I wouldn't be here to type now.
https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/
You quoted 'other markets' which if you were listening to the 2 interviews this morning you would have heard was codswallop. You then divert from the point and told me farmers voted for it which I'm not disagreeing with (but I don't actually know) and so what? You then quote a random poll at me which has nothing to do with the original point being made. Where is the logical thread in any of this?0 -
p.s. by the way, not least the status and political stance of the Leader of Her Majesty's Official OppositionMysticrose said:
For someone who suggested I take a break you're not exactly making scintillating contributions to the debate this morning ...Alanbrooke said:
err rightGardenwalker said:
I met a redneck on a Grecian isleAlanbrooke said:
of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,Gardenwalker said:
The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.Alanbrooke said:
The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.OldKingCole said:
What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.Nigelb said:
Kle4 is right, though.Dura_Ace said:
We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.kle4 said:
The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.Scott_P said:
They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.
The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.
As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
it takes two to tango
Who did the goat dance very well
He gave me back my smile
But he kept my camera to sell
FWIW I think my comparison to the Falklands War, whilst flowery, is apposite. Stop and think about it for a moment on a number of levels.0
This discussion has been closed.