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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Now betting opens on a by-election that has not yet been calle

SystemSystem Posts: 12,171
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Now betting opens on a by-election that has not yet been called and indeed might never happen

Ladbrokes make Lib Dems strong favourites to re-take Sheffield Hallam, if we get a by-election this year. pic.twitter.com/izdiC6e46Q

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Comments

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2019
    Not interested in 20/1 against the Boris Bounce?

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    On the subject of students and Brexit, the Home Office has outsourced student visa applications to a firm charging more money for a worse service. In the spirit of Brexit, it is a French company.

    UK universities have slammed the Home Office's outsourced visa system for foreign students as not fit for purpose [sorry, JRM] because it leaves scholars waiting weeks for appointments.
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/07/29/overseas_student_visas_suffering_it_fail/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038
    I've voted in two parliamentary by-elections. Tynebridge back in my youth and, more recently, Ealing Southall. Can any PBers claim 3 or more?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Not much above $1.21 this morning.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Good morning, everyone.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,605
    IanB2 said:

    Not much above $1.21 this morning.

    Under €1.09
  • This looks like a veritable shoo-in if in fact a by-election is called failing which you simply get yor money back.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    This looks like a veritable shoo-in if in fact a by-election is called failing which you simply get yor money back.

    It would be if you could get any money on.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited July 2019
    ***** Betting Post *****

    Perhapds the most interesting poll finding last weekend was that showing Labour achieving an overall majority were Corbyn NOT to be leader of the party at the next GE. This must have been a truly chilling result for him and indeed his closest advisors. For Labour to have the prospect of such a famous victory, simply by changing their leader must appear almost irresistible.
    Add to this the rumours that Corbyn is fed up with the job and would actually welcome the opportunity to quit and those 3.4 odds (2.4/1 in old money) against him ceasing to be leader by the end of 2019 and available from Betfair Sports and sister company Paddy Power look like value, compared with the somewhat cannier odds of 2/1 on offer from Shadsy at Ladbrokes. Of course this bet would also payout were Corbyn to resign and quit as leader after having lost a GE campaign this year.
  • Pulpstar said:

    This looks like a veritable shoo-in if in fact a by-election is called failing which you simply get yor money back.

    It would be if you could get any money on.
    I did just hald an hour ago ... Shadsy must get up early in the morning!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    Iraq, Iraq, Iraq ... repeat to fade.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    "The big negative for LAB if there is a by-election is O’Mara himself and how such a person could have been selected to fight a key marginal. It does not say a lot about Labour’s due diligence."

    He beat Clegg fair & square. What does that say about Clegg?

    The big negative for the LibDems if there is a by-election is Clegg.

    Clegg's reputation is beginning to rival Blair's in terms of squalid money-making & hypocrisy. Working for Facebook, after all the pious LibDem pronouncements on multinationals and tax !!!

    It depends whether the voters of Sheffield Hallam are more forgiving of a multi-millionaire hypocrite --- or of an autistic young man with mental health problems.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I don’t fancy this bet because the odds of a by-election this year must be no better than 30% and the Lib Dems still have to win.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited July 2019

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217

    On topic, I don’t fancy this bet because the odds of a by-election this year must be no better than 30% and the Lib Dems still have to win.

    Hmm that's a fair point about the probability of a by-election, seeing as Ladbrokes don't seem to want my ££ anyway I'll leave it the implied return is very low.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen his position.
    As he says at the end, look at the message not the messenger. One of the most fiercely tribal Labour figures living has decided that he does not want his membership back. If he doesn’t, how many others are reconsidering their allegiances?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited July 2019

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen his position.
    As he says at the end, look at the message not the messenger. One of the most fiercely tribal Labour figures living has decided that he does not want his membership back. If he doesn’t, how many others are reconsidering their allegiances?
    Probably fewer after this morning. Because with Labour right now it is all about the messenger.

    (And of course if all the Blairites do leave, that makes it easier for another nutter - say, Pidcock or Long-Bailey - to win when Corbyn decides to spend more time with his runner beans.)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Wasn’t Alistair Campbell chucked out of the Labour Party anyway, before being let back in?

    There’s a joke in here somewhere about Marxist clubs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Wasn’t Alistair Campbell chucked out of the Labour Party anyway, before being let back in?

    There’s a joke in here somewhere about Marxist clubs.

    He hasn't been let back in yet.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    The screed we all want to read is "ALASTAIR CAMPBELL: Why I no longer want to be readmitted at Heathrow - my happy life in Albania...."

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen his position.
    As he says at the end, look at the message not the messenger. One of the most fiercely tribal Labour figures living has decided that he does not want his membership back. If he doesn’t, how many others are reconsidering their allegiances?
    I assume one of the Corbynites will be along shortly to rejoice and explain to us that he's a troublemaker and they didn't want him readmitted anyway. It's just another small step towards victory in the hard left's takeover of the party.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Me too.

    Has he fully acknowledged his role in the death of David Kelly yet?

    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited July 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    So you're saying Corbyn will ignore him? :wink:

    Again, I have to say it is a very unimpressive letter. While I agree with many of his criticisms of Corbyn - while most people would, indeed - there's a self-justificatory whine running all the way through, along with many very dubious claims about his own record and some rather weird sentence construction.

    And because he is Alistair Campbell and most members of the Labour left consider him (despite all the judicial inquiries stating the contrary) a liar, forger and war monger this is, as I've said, exactly the sort of critic that will strengthen Corbyn. The trifling detail that he was instrumental in winning three elections - the only three elections Labour has won with working majorities in over fifty years - will not matter to them.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    After the Second World War, Einstein said he wanted nothing further to do with the Germans because of reasons of cleanliness.

    The same goes for Alistair Campbell.

    No-one wants anything more to do with him because of reasons of cleanliness.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Brexit began with the Iraq War.

    I think that's quite a stretch! What's your reasoning?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think that's fair enough. 'Investment' seems to be used interchangeably with 'increased spending' in politics and I've fallen right into the trap.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He was Buted out.

    I'll get my coat...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell isn't a fool. The letter looks to be an interesting one, albeit long, and I am in a hurry right now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    That course of action collapses the Tory vote and probably begets Farage or Corbyn as PM so it's a non runner
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,355

    Not interested in 20/1 against the Boris Bounce?

    This election would presumably take place after we have left the EU and we are beginning to enjoy the sunlit uplands of Freedom and Sovereignity. A grateful electorate would have the Conservatives 20 points clear in the national polls by then. They would surely pick up a seat like this easy peasy.

    I'd lump on, but wouldn't want to ruin Shadsy's Christmas bonus.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Nigelb said:

    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.

    If he really wanted to damage Corbyn, he should have written a letter begging to be let back in because he's recognised in Corbyn the fulfilment of Tony Blair's dream of a party of middle-class paternalism based on an effective press department, and Corbyn himself as the nearest thing Labour has had to a Blairites leader in years.

    Now THAT might put his supporters off...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The most interesting word here is "if"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1156094310678487041
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
    There may be some but there are many who would have still suported the war in Iraq who also voted Leave. The scepticism and hostility to the EU pre-dates the Iraq war by many years.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.

    BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    That course of action collapses the Tory vote and probably begets Farage or Corbyn as PM so it's a non runner
    Prorogueing democracy in the Uk by ignoring a referendum has a far worse outcome than leaving the EU.

    So his analogy is a pile of dung.

  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    ***** Betting Post *****

    Perhapds the most interesting poll finding last weekend was that showing Labour achieving an overall majority were Corbyn NOT to be leader of the party at the next GE. This must have been a truly chilling result for him and indeed his closest advisors. For Labour to have the prospect of such a famous victory, simply by changing their leader must appear almost irresistible.
    Add to this the rumours that Corbyn is fed up with the job and would actually welcome the opportunity to quit and those 3.4 odds (2.4/1 in old money) against him ceasing to be leader by the end of 2019 and available from Betfair Sports and sister company Paddy Power look like value, compared with the somewhat cannier odds of 2/1 on offer from Shadsy at Ladbrokes. Of course this bet would also payout were Corbyn to resign and quit as leader after having lost a GE campaign this year.

    How long does the process take to replace him though? Really the process could now only start in September, and how would that stack up against a quite likely election possible before 31st Oct. even after election not possible, there would need to be some leadership on VNOC and credibility in forming an alternative government. This would hinge around Labour and you could see Corbyn for a very short time gaining the support of the house to implement a referendum, and then to call an election, possibly whilst Tories in disarray for not delivering Brexit.

    So unless we think Labour will install a leader from the Parliamentary party alone an£ not go to the membership - highly disadvantageous to the Corbyn faction - then I can’t see it. He will need to carry until November. Is it possible to even organise contest between November and Dec 31st. Would they want to if significant no deal issues need resolving?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    It didn't. Admittedly, the huge administrative burdens imposed on teachers may have had something to do with that. In 2002 it was estimated that the average paperwork of an ordinary teacher was the equivalent of writing a good-sized novel every year.

    Nor did the extra spending on electricity bills exactly improve matters, albeit not paying them would have severely disimproved matters.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    edited July 2019

    ***** Betting Post *****

    Perhapds the most interesting poll finding last weekend was that showing Labour achieving an overall majority were Corbyn NOT to be leader of the party at the next GE. This must have been a truly chilling result for him and indeed his closest advisors. For Labour to have the prospect of such a famous victory, simply by changing their leader must appear almost irresistible.
    Add to this the rumours that Corbyn is fed up with the job and would actually welcome the opportunity to quit and those 3.4 odds (2.4/1 in old money) against him ceasing to be leader by the end of 2019 and available from Betfair Sports and sister company Paddy Power look like value, compared with the somewhat cannier odds of 2/1 on offer from Shadsy at Ladbrokes. Of course this bet would also payout were Corbyn to resign and quit as leader after having lost a GE campaign this year.

    In my view - and I know the party pretty well - it's unlikely. OK, the average member's view is that he's a good man unfairly treated but that the party is indeed doing badly (of course there are people who don't like him and people who think we're doing fine, but they're both minorities).

    It's not obvious, however, that we'd do much better with a specific other leader after the usual trial by media of the new person (polls with specific other leaders just show a small bounce), and even more dubious that we can do it with someone with what we see as attractive policies and principles. Winning under an Umunna clone seems not worth the effort. I know the argument that we owe it to people suffering under the Tories, but we lack confidence that a centrist would actually do much about that. Better to roll the dice and hope that the current flux produces the result that we want.

    Might he quit this year anyway? No - at a personal level, the sense of duty overpowers any distaste for the job. Health could intervene at some point, but not yet. And if he was going to do it this year for the party's sake, he'd have done it now, to give the new leader time to win and then speak at the conference.

    And finally there's a certain perverse reluctance to let his habitual opponents push us around. Most of us are fed up with hearing moaning from the usual suspects. If a new leadership challenge was forced on us by them, we'd rally round.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Me too.

    Has he fully acknowledged his role in the death of David Kelly yet?

    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    Shooting the messenger is always comforting. But still foolish.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
    At least it made people less likely to go believing dangerous messages from senior politicians, eh?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    That course of action collapses the Tory vote and probably begets Farage or Corbyn as PM so it's a non runner
    Prorogueing democracy in the Uk by ignoring a referendum has a far worse outcome than leaving the EU.

    So his analogy is a pile of dung.

    “Prorogueing democracy”.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    It didn't. Admittedly, the huge administrative burdens imposed on teachers may have had something to do with that. In 2002 it was estimated that the average paperwork of an ordinary teacher was the equivalent of writing a good-sized novel every year.

    Nor did the extra spending on electricity bills exactly improve matters, albeit not paying them would have severely disimproved matters.
    Where I worked we found that the improved salaries helped morale, performance, retention and recruitment. We were GM and ensured workload was controlled.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think that's fair enough. 'Investment' seems to be used interchangeably with 'increased spending' in politics and I've fallen right into the trap.
    I worked on a number of construction projects where there was investment in School buildings to modernise and bring up to an acceptable standard during that government.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_Schools_for_the_Future

    Whether it was cost effective or not it was certainly investment in my eyes. Capital spending to extend, modify and improve school facilities rather than revenue spending to pay teachers or ancilliary staff.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    ***** Betting Post *****

    Perhapds the most interesting poll finding last weekend was that showing Labour achieving an overall majority were Corbyn NOT to be leader of the party at the next GE. This must have been a truly chilling result for him and indeed his closest advisors. For Labour to have the prospect of such a famous victory, simply by changing their leader must appear almost irresistible.
    Add to this the rumours that Corbyn is fed up with the job and would actually welcome the opportunity to quit and those 3.4 odds (2.4/1 in old money) against him ceasing to be leader by the end of 2019 and available from Betfair Sports and sister company Paddy Power look like value, compared with the somewhat cannier odds of 2/1 on offer from Shadsy at Ladbrokes. Of course this bet would also payout were Corbyn to resign and quit as leader after having lost a GE campaign this year.

    In my view - and I know the party pretty well - it's unlikely. OK, the average member's view is that he's a good man unfairly treated but that the party is indeed doing badly (of course there are people who don't like him and people who think we're doing fine, but they're both minorities).

    It's not obvious, however, that we'd do much better with a specific other leader after the usual trial by media of the new person (polls with specific other leaders just show a small bounce), and even more dubious that we can do it with someone with what we see as attractive policies and principles. Winning under an Umunna clone seems not worth the effort. I know the argument that we owe it to people suffering under the Tories, but we lack confidence that a centrist would actually do much about that. Better to roll the dice and hope that the current flux produces the result that we want.

    Might he quit this year anyway? No - at a personal level, the sense of duty overpowers any distaste for the job. Health could intervene at some point, but not yet. And if he was going to do it this year for the party's sake, he'd have done it now, to give the new leader time to win and then speak at the conference.

    And finally there's a certain perverse reluctance to let his habitual opponents push us around. Most of us are fed up with hearing moaning from the usual suspects. If a new leadership challenge was forced on us by them, we'd rally round.
    That sounds suspiciously like a "Purity of Opposition" post Nick.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Me too.

    Has he fully acknowledged his role in the death of David Kelly yet?
    Though the new Government is hardly blameless in that regard, having appointed Andrew Gilligan as adviser.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Me too.

    Has he fully acknowledged his role in the death of David Kelly yet?

    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    Shooting the messenger is always comforting. But still foolish.
    I assure you I’m not comfortable.
    I’m as anti-Corbyn and anti-Brexit as they come. My country has been taken away from me by extremists.

    But I truly doubt that Alistair Campbell is going to change any minds.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Scott_P said:

    The most interesting word here is "if"

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1156094310678487041

    The Boris led Tory Party of course led Welsh Labour in yesterday's Welsh Westminster poll
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Me too.

    Has he fully acknowledged his role in the death of David Kelly yet?

    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    Shooting the messenger is always comforting. But still foolish.
    I assure you I’m not comfortable.
    I’m as anti-Corbyn and anti-Brexit as they come. My country has been taken away from me by extremists.

    But I truly doubt that Alistair Campbell is going to change any minds.
    I hope he doesn’t.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journey
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Surely without higher salaries, after 13 years you would have a different set of teachers, possibly teacher shortages over various spells, different levels of teacher motivation, different students deciding to take teaching degrees, so it has changed things even if it ended up a similar number of teachers?

    Corbyn isnt interested in the working class, merely the unionised part of it, he will have more loyalty and support from middle class public sector workers than traditional working class. The other group that might benefit from Corbynism could be the precariat.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    edited July 2019

    ***** Betting Post *****

    Perhapds the most interesting poll finding last weekend was that showing Labour achieving an overall majority were Corbyn NOT to be leader of the party at the next GE. This must have been a truly chilling result for him and indeed his closest advisors. For Labour to have the prospect of such a famous victory, simply by changing their leader must appear almost irresistible.
    Add to this the rumours that Corbyn is fed up with the job and would actually welcome the opportunity to quit and those 3.4 odds (2.4/1 in old money) against him ceasing to be leader by the end of 2019 and available from Betfair Sports and sister company Paddy Power look like value, compared with the somewhat cannier odds of 2/1 on offer from Shadsy at Ladbrokes. Of course this bet would also payout were Corbyn to resign and quit as leader after having lost a GE campaign this year.

    In my view - and I know the party pretty well - it's unlikely. OK, the average member's view is that he's a good man unfairly treated but that the party is indeed doing badly (of course there are people who don't like him and people who think we're doing fine, but they're both minorities).

    It's not obvious, however, that we'd do much better with a specific other leader after the usual trial by media of the new person (polls with specific other leaders just show a small bounce), and even more dubious that we can do it with someone with what we see as attractive policies and principles. Winning under an Umunna clone seems not worth the effort. I know the argument that we owe it to people suffering under the Tories, but we lack confidence that a centrist would actually do much about that. Better to roll the dice and hope that the current flux produces the result that we want.

    Might he quit this year anyway? No - at a personal level, the sense of duty overpowers any distaste for the job. Health could intervene at some point, but not yet. And if he was going to do it this year for the party's sake, he'd have done it now, to give the new leader time to win and then speak at the conference.

    And finally there's a certain perverse reluctance to let his habitual opponents push us around. Most of us are fed up with hearing moaning from the usual suspects. If a new leadership challenge was forced on us by them, we'd rally round.
    These are symptoms of the wider problem of a future as a minority left-wing class-driven party and a future as a minority liberal internationalist party (if that spot is not already taken), but no longer any future as a majority party encompassing both. Labour’s internal processes aren’t capable of forcing this choice and there seem to be few inside the party that see it, let alone want to make it. So it is left to events to do the job, in time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
    The difficulty is that they are not just ignoring this messenger but their own MPs, members and voters. Anyone who makes the slightest criticism however justified is ignored, traduced and attacked.

    Imagine such a cabal in government with the powers of the state at their disposal.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534



    That sounds suspiciously like a "Purity of Opposition" post Nick.

    It's always a balance, isn't it? To take that argument to its conclusion, say we were sure we could win if we were led by George Galloway or Nigel Farage. It wouldn't be worth it, because we'd be embarrassed by the government that we'd helped elect. So you try to pick someone whose views you agree with and has a fair chance of winning. To pick someone of moderate popularity whose views are relatively unappealing because (s)he'd have a 10% better chance of winning puts the cart (trying to win) before the horse (deciding what you want to achieve). If there was a brilliant, popular, reasonably left-wing alternative, that could be different.

    As for Campbell, members' simple reaction will be that it's good we pushed him before he jumped, since he was obviously poised to go.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen his position.
    As he says at the end, look at the message not the messenger. One of the most fiercely tribal Labour figures living has decided that he does not want his membership back. If he doesn’t, how many others are reconsidering their allegiances?
    Probably fewer after this morning. Because with Labour right now it is all about the messenger.

    (And of course if all the Blairites do leave, that makes it easier for another nutter - say, Pidcock or Long-Bailey - to win when Corbyn decides to spend more time with his runner beans.)
    If Boris wins the next general election and say Laura Pidcock replaces Corbyn hard to see how the LDs do not ultimately replace Labour as the main party of the centre left, as in the European Parliament elections
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    But apart from more teachers, better paid teachers, new school buildings, sure start... When did Labour ever invest in education?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Cyclefree said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Me too.

    Has he fully acknowledged his role in the death of David Kelly yet?

    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    Shooting the messenger is always comforting. But still foolish.
    Is it possible that one of Labour's problems is a lack of unimpeachable messengers?

    Arguably the same can be said for the Tories. Normally, the likes of Major claiming the party was at serious risk would necessitate a hearing. Now, he just gets ignored due to his role in the debacle by allowing Maastricht.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.

    BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
    It is perhaps a something of an exaggeration to say that there was no improvement in school buildings, but from everything II have read, and from my own local experience, it is absolutely true that enormous resources were wasted, and the multi decade contracts will be a continuing burden.
    The contracts for two projects I have most knowledge of have been resold three times since the work was carried out - each time at a profit. One of the schools went in to special measures and came very close to closing, before being absorbed into a MAT.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    Because Boris made it important by stating that we leave on October 31st..
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869



    That sounds suspiciously like a "Purity of Opposition" post Nick.

    It's always a balance, isn't it? To take that argument to its conclusion, say we were sure we could win if we were led by George Galloway or Nigel Farage. It wouldn't be worth it, because we'd be embarrassed by the government that we'd helped elect. So you try to pick someone whose views you agree with and has a fair chance of winning. To pick someone of moderate popularity whose views are relatively unappealing because (s)he'd have a 10% better chance of winning puts the cart (trying to win) before the horse (deciding what you want to achieve). If there was a brilliant, popular, reasonably left-wing alternative, that could be different.

    As for Campbell, members' simple reaction will be that it's good we pushed him before he jumped, since he was obviously poised to go.
    All perfectly logical, except that the party clings to a voting system that forces exactly the kind of calculation that you so clearly don’t want to make.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    Meanwhile the actual current Conservative Party of Canada leader not an interim wet has already been to London to start trade deal talks

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-united-kingdom-trip-1.4563485
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    Because Leavers have been driven insane.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Branson's tweet must be one of the most tone deaf ones ever. Sometimes the messenger matters.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell and his pal Mandelson are one of the causes of Brexit. The toxic mantra of "they have nowhere else to go" was pushed to its limits and broke.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Scott_P said:
    Aw, that's nice. They think we're more important than the Eurozone debt crisis and the refugee crisis, both of which had compromise solutions cobbled together at 3am. The former, on multiple occasions.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Endillion said:

    Scott_P said:
    Aw, that's nice. They think we're more important than the Eurozone debt crisis and the refugee crisis, both of which had compromise solutions cobbled together at 3am. The former, on multiple occasions.
    Yes because those crisis started quickly and needed immediate responses.

    This is a meeting on October 17th to rubberstamp discussions made over the next 2 months
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    Perhaps you could mitigate the risk by holding a people’s vote on whether to send the letter.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journey
    Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.
    Of course salaries have an investment effect. Of course that impact is smaller than the investment effect of building a whole new school where it is needed.

    Teachers salaries are a big driver for retention, motivation, training and recruitment - if salaries are low, the above all drop and future teaching becomes worse, if salaries are high future teaching become better.

    This is pedantry gone wrong.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    Because Leavers have been driven insane.
    bui no more so than Remainers
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    edited July 2019
    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journey
    Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.
    Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and off
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
    At least it made people less likely to go believing dangerous messages from senior politicians, eh?
    The effect has been to make people more likely to believe outsiders who come along with even more implausible proposals.
    The credulity of the electorate persists.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.

    BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
    It is perhaps a something of an exaggeration to say that there was no improvement in school buildings, but from everything II have read, and from my own local experience, it is absolutely true that enormous resources were wasted, and the multi decade contracts will be a continuing burden.
    The contracts for two projects I have most knowledge of have been resold three times since the work was carried out - each time at a profit. One of the schools went in to special measures and came very close to closing, before being absorbed into a MAT.
    And not all spending was done on a PFI basis. In fact the BSF projects I worked on were not PFI but quite small scale , minor alteration / refurbishment schemes.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    PFI and we have to pay billions over the odds ( many times ) for the next 20 + years. Pair of ar**holes.
This discussion has been closed.