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  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,815
    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733
    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Cambell was the Dominic Cummings of his day, but that day is long gone.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
    As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.

    Boris will just refuse further extension in October
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Buy shares in mint sauce.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,355

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    Difficult to disagree with any of what he wrote.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    Perhaps you could mitigate the risk by holding a people’s vote on whether to send the letter.
    Or perhaps they could just get on and do as they have been fucking told by the voters?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respected
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    The remain voting workers will be subsidising the leave voting sheep farmers for decades to come. Apparently this is fair because anyone who rents a small flat in a city is part of the elite and they need to share the wealth with those worthy of state benefits who own acres of land.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    edited July 2019
    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
    Of course the reverse could also be observed. No more enthusiastic proponent for both the Iraq war (before it was a twinkle in Ali Campbell's rheumy eye) and Brexit than IDS.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    eek said:

    Endillion said:

    Scott_P said:
    Aw, that's nice. They think we're more important than the Eurozone debt crisis and the refugee crisis, both of which had compromise solutions cobbled together at 3am. The former, on multiple occasions.
    Yes because those crisis started quickly and needed immediate responses.

    This is a meeting on October 17th to rubberstamp discussions made over the next 2 months
    Have you forgotten? The refugee crisis took months to resolve, and the Eurozone crisis years, and arguably still isn't resolved. Greece is on its third round of bailouts and might still need another of some sort.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respected
    As you say, they voted for it.
    No sympathy.
    Prepare the pyres.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,490

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    The remain voting workers will be subsidising the leave voting sheep farmers for decades to come. Apparently this is fair because anyone who rents a small flat in a city is part of the elite and they need to share the wealth with those worthy of state benefits who own acres of land.
    So no different than happens at the moment then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen his position.
    As he says at the end, look at the message not the messenger.
    That will never happen. This country is do ridiculously tribal the messenger is the message.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journey
    Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.
    Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and off
    Ha Ha Ha Ha, one of those Boos may have incapacitated him right enough. He is a big jessie boy, scared to face public opinion and has to have only hand picked ar*e lickers before he can try to act the big man. Cowardy Custard ran away.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
    As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.

    Boris will just refuse further extension in October
    He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.

    Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    Ask Boris, hes the one eliminating many options in pursuit of it. Even if no deal cannot be prepared he has committed.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,815
    edited July 2019
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respected
    So you weren't listening then re your comments about extra internal/external markets on 1 Nov.

    Yes lots voted leave. I have done many stupid things in my time as well.

    So when you make a decision you must go through with it regardless. No option to re-evaluate. I refer you to my admission that I have made many stupid decisions in my time. If I followed through with every one I wouldn't be here to type now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    What about the press secretary that Johnson presumably appointed?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,355
    Cyclefree said:
    Yes, he is saying nothing that has not been said before by many others, many times and in many ways. It is however a comprehensive summary of the case against Corbyn's Labour.

    I doubt we wil see any answer other than ad hominem dismissals.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Punter, ha. The irony of Campbell suffering an ad hominem dismissal.

    Interesting suggestion earlier that Corbyn might be ready to pack it in.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
    As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.

    Boris will just refuse further extension in October
    He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.

    Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
    To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.

    BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
    It is perhaps a something of an exaggeration to say that there was no improvement in school buildings, but from everything II have read, and from my own local experience, it is absolutely true that enormous resources were wasted, and the multi decade contracts will be a continuing burden.
    The contracts for two projects I have most knowledge of have been resold three times since the work was carried out - each time at a profit. One of the schools went in to special measures and came very close to closing, before being absorbed into a MAT.
    And not all spending was done on a PFI basis. In fact the BSF projects I worked on were not PFI but quite small scale , minor alteration / refurbishment schemes.
    Of course - but the bulk of the BSF investment was in large scale projects, most of which were PFI.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respected
    And right now they are extremely worried.

    If you believe the role of government is to punish people for their own mistakes, that is your affair. I doubt there would be a happy ending to such a course.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    Solution to what? There's no majority in parliament for no deal.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.
    Yes but extra pay may improve retention, delay retirement and enable higher quality of recruitment. It is investment in the workforce and in teaching they are critical to the final product.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    But apart from more teachers, better paid teachers, new school buildings, sure start... When did Labour ever invest in education?

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.
    Of course salaries have an investment effect. Of course that impact is smaller than the investment effect of building a whole new school where it is needed.

    Teachers salaries are a big driver for retention, motivation, training and recruitment - if salaries are low, the above all drop and future teaching becomes worse, if salaries are high future teaching become better.

    This is pedantry gone wrong.
    It’s not pedantary. Capital Investment is one thing. Revenue spending is another. Should we do both. Of course.

    Salaries are by their nature dynamic. Just because salaries go up doesn’t necessarily mean future teaching becomes better. If other options for the relevant graduates have even higher salaries or better terms and conditions then there might not be the desired effect.

    There seem to be a lot of things outside salaries that contribute to retention of teaching staff like workload, Ofsted, school management, frequency of changes to curriculum, general school budgets, availability and levels of support staff.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
    As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.

    Boris will just refuse further extension in October
    He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.

    Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
    To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?
    I'd support him delaying of course but hes nailed his trousers to the mast and BXP would eat him alive for the delay. He was going to win anyway I don't know why he felt the need to be do or die about the date - committing no matter what is legitimately crazy since it openly says even if it was terrible and 1 week delay would make it ok he wont do it, evidence be damned.

    Now, someone will say leaving on the date will be fine but that's not the point- hes saying we would do so even if it were not fine.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
    As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.

    Boris will just refuse further extension in October
    He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.

    Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
    To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?
    I think I can understand the view of Leavers who see it as an issue of trust. Another delay, with another excuse, what's to stop another delay after that?

    The economic numbers, while doubtless based on the best economics has to offer (in your scenario) are still only hypothetical, but the leaving of the EU would be categorical. And the trust in government institutions has been undermined, so why would they trust the hypothetical figures?

    Of course, the date is not important. If MPs were in favour the date could be brought forward.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?
    'heir to Thatcher'
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    The issue or plan is that it might (or eventually will) stick...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?
    How long have you been on PB?
    It’s the lizard people of Finchley Road.
    They spend their days plotting world domination / processing company formations.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited July 2019

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    Solution to what? There's no majority in parliament for no deal.
    It was a general point on how things have gone not a specific one- both sides have continually insisted no movement on things and acted as though it's as immutable as a law of nature to disguise that their stances are political posturing.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    felix said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    I think in economic [not to say social as well] terms paying more for your workforce would absolutely be considered investment if the aim was to improve morale, quality, etc. Certainly in my days we recognised the huge role teachers played in producing the goods in the classroom.
    Paying more is not investment though. Teachers can retire or change careers at any point and frequently do. Any salary ‘invested’ in them is then lost.
    Yes but extra pay may improve retention, delay retirement and enable higher quality of recruitment. It is investment in the workforce and in teaching they are critical to the final product.
    To add, as a GM school we used exta money from all governments for more staff and building projects none of which were based on PFI. We managed our budget carefully and always sought the best value in both bricks and mortar as well as quality teachers and opther staff.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,534
    IanB2 said:



    That sounds suspiciously like a "Purity of Opposition" post Nick.

    It's always a balance, isn't it? To take that argument to its conclusion, say we were sure we could win if we were led by George Galloway or Nigel Farage. It wouldn't be worth it, because we'd be embarrassed by the government that we'd helped elect. So you try to pick someone whose views you agree with and has a fair chance of winning. To pick someone of moderate popularity whose views are relatively unappealing because (s)he'd have a 10% better chance of winning puts the cart (trying to win) before the horse (deciding what you want to achieve). If there was a brilliant, popular, reasonably left-wing alternative, that could be different.

    As for Campbell, members' simple reaction will be that it's good we pushed him before he jumped, since he was obviously poised to go.
    All perfectly logical, except that the party clings to a voting system that forces exactly the kind of calculation that you so clearly don’t want to make.
    Well, I don't - I've been in favour of PR all my life and was an active member of the Labour Campaign for Electoral Reform. In the current situation with mulriple medium-sized parties it's even more sensible.

    But anyway I was disagreeing with PfP's betting post on what would actually happen this year (he was advising bets on Corbyn leaving), rather than especially reflecting my own view.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    edited July 2019
    "It’s not pedantary. Capital Investment is one thing. Revenue spending is another. Should we do both. Of course.

    Salaries are by their nature dynamic. Just because salaries go up doesn’t necessarily mean future teaching becomes better. If other options for the relevant graduates have even higher salaries or better terms and conditions then there might not be the desired effect.

    There seem to be a lot of things outside salaries that contribute to retention of teaching staff like workload, Ofsted, school management, frequency of changes to curriculum, general school budgets, availability and levels of support staff."

    All the above is true, apart from the first bit, it is pedantry. Salaries going up doesnt necessarily make future teaching better, but nor does building new schools. Salaries going up does make future teaching likely to be better than if salaries had flatlined, as does building new schools. Both have an investment impact.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. kle4, it's entirely possible that macho bullshit and fear of 'losing face' by being the one to apparently back down will see both sides refuse to budge. We leave with no deal. Nobody's happy. [Well, very few].
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?
    'heir to Thatcher'
    Reincarnation of Churchill I think you mean.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    Don't talk crap, he is the head honcho , if he had any gumption he would have told them he was leaving by the front door. Europeans must be wetting themselves having to negotiate with someone so tough that he has to slink out the back door scared witless by a few boos from a perfectly law abiding group of people.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I like Alastair Campbell 🤷‍♂️. Without him we wouldn't have had the minimum wage, the supreme court, huge investment in healthcare and education...

    He's done more for the working class than Jeremy Corbyn. ;)

    Can't answer for healthcare. There was almost no government investment in education under Blair or Brown. There was a lot of extra spending but once you look at it with a cold eye most of it went on paying extra for things that were already there. Although I have no objection to higher salaries for teachers(!) I don't characterise it as 'investment.'
    Huge capital investment in new school buildings
    Most of which were (a) built under PFI so not part of the headline figure and (b) have proven utterly worthless. One of them I was teaching in actually suffered partial structural failure in a high wind.

    BSF, to be honest, is something Labour should keep very quiet about. It has led to almost no improvement in school buildings at costs that will remain to plague us for decades.
    It is perhaps a something of an exaggeration to say that there was no improvement in school buildings, but from everything II have read, and from my own local experience, it is absolutely true that enormous resources were wasted, and the multi decade contracts will be a continuing burden.
    The contracts for two projects I have most knowledge of have been resold three times since the work was carried out - each time at a profit. One of the schools went in to special measures and came very close to closing, before being absorbed into a MAT.
    And not all spending was done on a PFI basis. In fact the BSF projects I worked on were not PFI but quite small scale , minor alteration / refurbishment schemes.
    Of course - but the bulk of the BSF investment was in large scale projects, most of which were PFI.
    I can only describe the other side of PFI which people forget. In this case the local authority had a BSF programme. This consisted of big schemes possibly funded by PFI that I was not involved in, but that then freed up additional smaller amounts of money to be spent across other schools that were not getting a big project. I remember discussing one project with a bursar as we were over budget and they had built up some cash reserves that they built up specifically for a project which was unlocked more quickly with the BSF funding.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Why not make it tomorrow then?

    Asserting something does not make it true or a valid argument.
    As the Commons has already voted to back the extension May asked for and voted against the Withdrawal Agreement and No Deal.

    Boris will just refuse further extension in October
    He may or may not do, he is a confirmed liar, so we will have to wait to find out what he intends even before accepting that he is not fully in control of events.

    Still no answer to the question of why Oct 31st, an arbitrary date given to us by a foreign govt is so important?
    To put this another way, imagine Goves new committee comes back to the PM and says look, we have ran through all the no deal scenarios, if we leave on Oct 31st there is 4% hit to GDP, but if we leave on Dec 10th the extra six weeks preparations would allow the hit to come down to 2%. What would you support the PM doing?
    I think I can understand the view of Leavers who see it as an issue of trust. Another delay, with another excuse, what's to stop another delay after that?

    The economic numbers, while doubtless based on the best economics has to offer (in your scenario) are still only hypothetical, but the leaving of the EU would be categorical. And the trust in government institutions has been undermined, so why would they trust the hypothetical figures?

    Of course, the date is not important. If MPs were in favour the date could be brought forward.
    I sympathise with leavers as they were lied to by May about definitely leaving on a certain date. The answer to that is not a new PM lying to them about a different date, that is not even fully within his control.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    What about the press secretary that Johnson presumably appointed?
    If by "press secretary" you mean "security officer" and by "appointed" you mean "had sent to him by the Met", then sure, blame him.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?
    How long have you been on PB?
    It’s the lizard people of Finchley Road.
    They spend their days plotting world domination / processing company formations.
    I'm afraid that has now been relegated to only the second most exciting vast conspiracy that I am tangentially connected with, behind the way that the government uses my firm to exert pressure on the EHRC to torment the Labour party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Mr. kle4, it's entirely possible that macho bullshit and fear of 'losing face' by being the one to apparently back down will see both sides refuse to budge. We leave with no deal. Nobody's happy. [Well, very few].

    That has long looked like what will happen, unless remainers get their way. Now both sides pretty much want no deal because the situation now is who wins. If the EU shift on the WA they 'lose' even if it means a deal which is good for them. If the UK accepts the WA as is or accepts some fudged wording on the PD we 'lose' even if it means a deal which prevents a great deal of disruption, and even though we know Boris accepted the WA before.

    The backstop does not even matter anymore, it's just a point the public can mostly understand as that awful/necessary thing which the bad guys want to preserve/eliminate.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    malcolmg said:

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    Don't talk crap, he is the head honcho , if he had any gumption he would have told them he was leaving by the front door. Europeans must be wetting themselves having to negotiate with someone so tough that he has to slink out the back door scared witless by a few boos from a perfectly law abiding group of people.
    Would it be totally inappropriate to say that I'm sure Merkel is shaking in her boots?

    Yes, I think it would.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,355

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    He stopped fractionally short of lying but he tortured the evidence to get the answer he wanted in support of the wrong policy.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:

    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    He has however lost his common touch, and does more damage to his own side nowadays. I’m as Remain as they come but when he’s on the media I cringe as one feels the support ebb away.
    Brexit began with the Iraq War.
    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.
    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    Yeah I probably get a lot of things wrong but there have been two events during my lifetime when I have been absolutely sure the country was making a terrible mistake: Iraq and Brexit. At least with Iraq you could argue that it was going to happen with or without us. But Brexit? All on us, sadly.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    The comparison is not equal.

    That is because we did actually invade Iraq. "Three years in ...."

    We have not yet Brexited. We are still talking about it.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Brexiters are the proverbial Brits abroad, talking more loudly in order to be understood and eventually waving money around in the belief that the wogs (who start at Calais) are all bribable.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Endillion said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    Thank you Malcolm 'Press Association' G!
    Just to make sure you southerners know what happened, the big jessie was booed in the front door and bundled out the back door by his breeks arse. What a loser.
    By a bunch of ranting Nats (albeit a few Boris fans).

    As PM Boris has neither the time nor the security risk to waste time confronting ranting Nats
    Sadly, slinking our the back door is standard Boris.

    As PM - especially now - you must expect brick bats.
    Second day running that Johnson is being criticised on here for something that probably wasn't his call to make.
    He is, you know, the actual Prime Minister. Who’s telling him what door to use - the Bilderberg Group? The Illuminati?
    'heir to Thatcher'
    Heir to Thatcher - Boris Johnson - Absolutely No
    Hair to Thatcher - Michael Fabricant - Absolutely Yes
    No Heir or Hair to Thatcher - Mike Smithson - No Bar Chart Required.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.

    Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.

    Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,355

    Mr. Punter, ha. The irony of Campbell suffering an ad hominem dismissal.

    Interesting suggestion earlier that Corbyn might be ready to pack it in.

    Life is full of such ironies, MD! It remains wise however to look at the message rather than the messenger.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Brexiters are the proverbial Brits abroad, talking more loudly in order to be understood and eventually waving money around in the belief that the wogs (who start at Calais) are all bribable.
    Bribable or responsive to a bit of bullying (eg the Irish).
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    kle4 said:

    Mr. kle4, it's entirely possible that macho bullshit and fear of 'losing face' by being the one to apparently back down will see both sides refuse to budge. We leave with no deal. Nobody's happy. [Well, very few].

    That has long looked like what will happen, unless remainers get their way. Now both sides pretty much want no deal because the situation now is who wins. If the EU shift on the WA they 'lose' even if it means a deal which is good for them. If the UK accepts the WA as is or accepts some fudged wording on the PD we 'lose' even if it means a deal which prevents a great deal of disruption, and even though we know Boris accepted the WA before.

    The backstop does not even matter anymore, it's just a point the public can mostly understand as that awful/necessary thing which the bad guys want to preserve/eliminate.
    The real issue is that if the EU moves can Boris guarantee and the EU would want a guarantee that he can get it through parliament. The EU can do the maths and they know the only way a deal is getting through, is if Corbyn and Boris both say they support it and there is no chance of that.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
    The difficulty is that they are not just ignoring this messenger but their own MPs, members and voters. Anyone who makes the slightest criticism however justified is ignored, traduced and attacked.

    Imagine such a cabal in government with the powers of the state at their disposal.
    Shouldn't there be an 'innocent face' after that?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    They often do. But people ignored how strident they were.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.

    Mrs Richards - leaver
    Lord Melbury - leaver, in the cabinet
    Mr Hutchinson - leaver, active on guido and conhome
    The Major - remainer, he fought in the war
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    The EU were correct in the short term as they knew May had the spine of a jellyfish.

    Longer term their actions may not pan out to be correct.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    TGOHF said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    The EU were correct in the short term as they knew May had the spine of a jellyfish.

    Longer term their actions may not pan out to be correct.
    Or perhaps it was the Attorney Generals advice that May had to follow parliaments wishes in the Cooper Letwin bill that led them to know that they were correct.

    Playing poker when your opponent can not only see your cards, but knows that they are already in the muck is not a test of your spine or character but a losing game, whoever the PM was.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Bold assumption on the EU's part that Boris Johnson will still be Prime Minister on 17 October.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I think the pound dropping below parity against the Euro will be a game changer ...

    Blimey and I shudder to think what the news coverage would be like if it did the same against the dollar.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.

    A Leaver in the Wetherspoon's mould, quite keen on employing staff from the EU. (And just to forestall any pedantic comments, I am aware that Spain wasn't a member of the EU when Fawlty Towers was made!)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited July 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    This feels quite important:

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1155954695824740352?s=21

    The sands are shifting.

    When you read that rather rambling, incoherent and self-serving screed it does raise one important question:

    How was anyone ever taken in by this fool?

    More seriously, I can't see how this is damaging to Corbyn. Indeed, Campbell is so toxic his criticisms are likely to strengthen Corbyn's position.
    Campbell may be a fool but he was part of a team which mercilessly pounded a Tory government riven over Europe and which helped it to three election victories. So it would be sensible to listen to what he says as it would be sensible to listen to those Labour staff members turned whistleblowers. Or the many Labour MPs expressing unease. Or the Labour members cancelling their membership of the party. Or the Labour voters not voting for Labour in recent elections.

    Only a fool doesn’t listen to criticism.
    Campbell is no more a fool than most politicians, and smarter than most, but he is someone who refuses to acknowledge the largest mistake of his career, a mistake which had disastrous consequences.
    It is one thing to believe that the end justifies the means, a dangerous and immoral belief in anyone, let alone a senior politician. It is quite another to refuse to recognise that the end you sought was a delusion.

    He is, of course, correct now, and Alistair is right to think it significant that he has no further desire to return to Labour. But the significance of the message will be ignored by most of its audience simply because of the messenger’s identity.
    The difficulty is that they are not just ignoring this messenger but their own MPs, members and voters. Anyone who makes the slightest criticism however justified is ignored, traduced and attacked.

    Imagine such a cabal in government with the powers of the state at their disposal.
    Agreed. I have no argument with Campbell's letter; it just won't make any difference.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    I have just realised that Basil Fawlty is a Brexiter, while Sybil is a Remainer.

    Mrs Richards - leaver
    Lord Melbury - leaver, in the cabinet
    Mr Hutchinson - leaver, active on guido and conhome
    The Major - remainer, he fought in the war
    Just so that everyone can appreciate the wit of that:
    Mrs Richards - lady with hearing aid
    Lord Melbury - con man with a suitcase full of bricks
    Mr Hutchinson - Bernard Cribbins
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journey
    Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.
    Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and off
    Ha Ha Ha Ha, one of those Boos may have incapacitated him right enough. He is a big jessie boy, scared to face public opinion and has to have only hand picked ar*e lickers before he can try to act the big man. Cowardy Custard ran away.
    Crap Boris went to Ednburgh and faced ranting nats head on, what do you want Boris to have a punch up with them on the way out?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.

    Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.

    Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.
    Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited July 2019
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respected
    So you weren't listening then re your comments about extra internal/external markets on 1 Nov.

    Yes lots voted leave. I have done many stupid things in my time as well.

    So when you make a decision you must go through with it regardless. No option to re-evaluate. I refer you to my admission that I have made many stupid decisions in my time. If I followed through with every one I wouldn't be here to type now.
    Opinium has 45% of voters now backing No Deal, more than the 28% for revoke and the 13% for extend again combined in its latest poll and political report last weekend

    https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited July 2019
    This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.

    If Britain wins, then the tories will land the biggest majority since Thatcher.

    But this isn't 1982. The EU is not an 'enemy,' despite what Bonkers Boris believes and they're not a bunch of amateurish Argentinians who would rather be back home.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.

    take a break
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_P said:
    “TBF M Gove gets this”

    While masterminding preparations for said immiseration.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.

    Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.

    Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.
    Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracy
    I wasnt making a judgement call on if Iraq was well handled or not, right or wrong, I'm sure that has been done endlessly. It is more that whilst people may deny reality in the present, if something goes very wrong, then people either forget, or are embarrassed and lie, about their past held views.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.

    Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.

    Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.
    Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracy
    And there are no tanks in Baghdad?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.

    Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.

    Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.
    Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracy
    I thought there was still a big issue around Kurdistan, and that there were still elements of ISIS about.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Endillion said:



    [Citation needed]

    I'm pretty sure there's a lot of correlation between those who most opposed the Iraq war and those who oppose Brexit.

    When the Iraq invasion started being a thing, I got interested, explored the topic, thought about it and quickly came to the conclusion it would be a huge mess because it was predicated on a set of almost certainly false assumptions. It turned out as I expected, including interestingly that there wasn't much in the way of WMD and that fact would be a big scandal.

    Similarly with Brexit. I could see from the off that it was built on a set of false assumptions and this would lead to a big mess as those assumptions unravel. It hasn't fully played out yet, so we will have to see if Brexit is successfully delivered and we all move on. I am still confident of my original expectation of an intractable mess.

    I should say, I am an imposter on this site. I am not good at predictions , but always confident of the Iraq and Brexit ones.
    You are right about both.
    Like a fool, I supported the Iraq War initially.
    I never dreamed a British PM would lie to the country over such a thing.
    One thing has surprised me about Brexit, which I guess means I was wrong in that respect. The extent to which people are prepared to deny reality. Three years in it was obvious to most people that the Iraq invasion hadn't gone to plan. The cognitive dissonance on the Brexit shambles is off the scale. I think this means supporters of Brexit are much more invested in their project than Iraq War supporters were.
    If we do no deal it will be interesting to see in 10 years time what proportion of leavers will remember accurately which way they voted when polled.

    Yougov have recalling support for Iraq war at 37% in 2015 vs 54% support in 2003. In the US it dropped from 63% at the time to 38% recalling their support.

    Similar will happen with leave in a no deal scenario.
    Iraq is now a largely peaceful democracy
    (Whoosh...)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
    of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,

    it takes two to tango
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289

    This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.

    If Britain wins, then the tories will land the biggest majority since Thatcher.

    But this isn't 1982. The EU is not an 'enemy,' despite what Bonkers Boris believes and they're not a bunch of amateurish Argentinians who would rather be back home.

    The difference is this time we have the Exocets trained on ourselves and, in place of mid air refuelling, the Vulcans will be reaching Port Stanley airfield on pure optimism.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,478

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    Rather agree; far too much trust was placed in both the probity of the auditors and the soundness of the Greek tax system.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_P said:
    “TBF M Gove gets this”

    While masterminding preparations for said immiseration.
    If there are problems then the best person to make preparations is someone who recognises what the problems are, that way they can identify and deal with them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    PRIME Minister Boris Johnson left via the back door after a meeting with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon at Bute House.

    It came after Johnson was fiercely booed by crowds when he arrived earlier in the day.

    He at least went there and met her at the front door, no need for Boris to have to face a mob of ranting Nats on the way out which would delay his journey
    Poor diddums, he does not even have the cojones to come back out the front door, laughing stock of Europe. Back Door Boris.
    Boris met Sturgeon at the front door, it is far too big a security risk for a sitting PM to waste time confronting a mob of ranting Nats when he can just head out the back and off
    Ha Ha Ha Ha, one of those Boos may have incapacitated him right enough. He is a big jessie boy, scared to face public opinion and has to have only hand picked ar*e lickers before he can try to act the big man. Cowardy Custard ran away.
    Crap Boris went to Ednburgh and faced ranting nats head on, what do you want Boris to have a punch up with them on the way out?
    What a lickspittle you are. Pathetic reply. Your choice of words "ranting" - what a loser , they were exercising their public right to show their opinion of him , peacefully. He is such a shallow ego that it was too much for him that he CHOSE to slink out the back door rather than hear people booing him. I am sure he would have done the same if they had been cheering and chanting his name :).
    Then you suggest he punches people, are you totally stark raving mad enough to suggest the |PM should get involved in a punch up just because he is criticised.
    You have become unhinged.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_P said:
    “TBF M Gove gets this”

    While masterminding preparations for said immiseration.
    If there are problems then the best person to make preparations is someone who recognises what the problems are, that way they can identify and deal with them.
    If Gove has balls he’d reiterate that No Deal is a disaster, as he used to concede when he was Environment Sec.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005

    I think the pound dropping below parity against the Euro will be a game changer ...

    Blimey and I shudder to think what the news coverage would be like if it did the same against the dollar.

    I believe the lowest level the £ has ever fallen to against the $ was £1.05 in 1985.
    Perhaps heir to Thatcher isn't so fanciful.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited July 2019
    One good consequence of Brexit, our office's internal rates of return on our pension pots are all heading north.
    My colleague has hit 11.9% compound growth !
    9.5% here.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Pro_Rata said:

    This has now become like the Falklands War. Days before the Armada arrives, a reasonable solution might be found. But Bonkers Boris is on a war footing. Their eyes are alight. They will try to crash us out. They will try to sink any Belgranos in the water. Dominic Cummings will adore bringing the whole edifice crashing down. It's what he lives for: the smoke in the rubble is the air he breathes.

    If Britain wins, then the tories will land the biggest majority since Thatcher.

    But this isn't 1982. The EU is not an 'enemy,' despite what Bonkers Boris believes and they're not a bunch of amateurish Argentinians who would rather be back home.

    The difference is this time we have the Exocets trained on ourselves and, in place of mid air refuelling, the Vulcans will be reaching Port Stanley airfield on pure optimism.
    :smiley::smiley::smiley:
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
    of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,

    it takes two to tango
    I met a redneck on a Grecian isle
    Who did the goat dance very well
    He gave me back my smile
    But he kept my camera to sell
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
    of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,

    it takes two to tango
    I met a redneck on a Grecian isle
    Who did the goat dance very well
    He gave me back my smile
    But he kept my camera to sell
    err right
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
    of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,

    it takes two to tango
    I met a redneck on a Grecian isle
    Who did the goat dance very well
    He gave me back my smile
    But he kept my camera to sell
    Were his omelettes and stews any good?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
    of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,

    it takes two to tango
    I met a redneck on a Grecian isle
    Who did the goat dance very well
    He gave me back my smile
    But he kept my camera to sell
    err right
    For someone who suggested I take a break you're not exactly making scintillating contributions to the debate this morning ...

    FWIW I think my comparison to the Falklands War, whilst flowery, is apposite. Stop and think about it for a moment on a number of levels.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,815
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    He seems not to have factored in the critical risk to democracy in sending such a letter.

    If I had a risk management consultant who advised me to send the letter without balancing the competing risks, I'd fire him - and advise that none should employ this fool.
    October 31st is an arbitrary deadline not of our choosing, why on earth is it so important?
    As the current Commons clearly will never vote for or implement Brexit so Boris has to confront it head on
    Are you listening to the car crash on Radio 4 currently? What do you say to these sheep farmers? Clearly the minister has no answer whatsoever.
    Many of those sheep farmers voted Leave and there is a whole market outside the EU as well as a domestic one, while EU trade will still continue even with tariffs but the will of the people must be respected
    So you weren't listening then re your comments about extra internal/external markets on 1 Nov.

    Yes lots voted leave. I have done many stupid things in my time as well.

    So when you make a decision you must go through with it regardless. No option to re-evaluate. I refer you to my admission that I have made many stupid decisions in my time. If I followed through with every one I wouldn't be here to type now.
    Opinium has 45% of voters now backing No Deal, more than the 28% for revoke and the 13% for extend again combined in its latest poll and political report last weekend

    https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/
    ?!! What has that got to do with my post and the inept minister on radio 4 this morning.

    You quoted 'other markets' which if you were listening to the 2 interviews this morning you would have heard was codswallop. You then divert from the point and told me farmers voted for it which I'm not disagreeing with (but I don't actually know) and so what? You then quote a random poll at me which has nothing to do with the original point being made. Where is the logical thread in any of this?
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    The EU love last minute cobbled solutions, so I struggle to believe that it could not do it. Politically they do not want to. Which people may say is fair enough, but theres a lot of people on our side and theirs insisting no flexibility is possible in an effort to pretend theres no choice involved.
    We were told, literally, hundreds of times, on here by leavers that a "fudged" solution would appear just before the 29th March deadline because that's how the EU operates.
    Kle4 is right, though.
    They could do it - but they do not want to. And very probably won't.
    What is impressive about the EU at the moment is the support they are giving to one of the smaller members, Ireland, which is, in other activities, in dispute with the 'management'.
    This whole 'Britain Leaving' idea is our idea alone, and the disruption to EU activity is solely of our making.

    The Greek dispute was apparently largely the Greeks making (although the auditors had a lot to do with it) and as a consequence they had to pull their own chestnuts out of the fire.

    As UK will have to. And look what happened to the 'responsible' Greek governing party!
    The greek tragedy was because the EU ignored its own rules and let them join the Euro fully in the knowledge they were unfit to do so.

    When it turned out bad, the EU simply forgot its own role in the chaos and rushed to bail out Mrs Merkels banks,
    The Greeks were fully complicit in their own catastrophe.

    Like the sheep farmers and car workers, they voted for their own humiliation.
    of course they were, but so were the EU authorities,

    it takes two to tango
    I met a redneck on a Grecian isle
    Who did the goat dance very well
    He gave me back my smile
    But he kept my camera to sell
    err right
    For someone who suggested I take a break you're not exactly making scintillating contributions to the debate this morning ...

    FWIW I think my comparison to the Falklands War, whilst flowery, is apposite. Stop and think about it for a moment on a number of levels.
    p.s. by the way, not least the status and political stance of the Leader of Her Majesty's Official Opposition
This discussion has been closed.