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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The new order from the Honourable Member for the 18th Century

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  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,551

    This deserves more comment than it received in the previous thread:

    http://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1154773420770566146

    Gilligan was the commissioner who got Johnson’s segregated cycle superhighways built, the one unalloyed triumph of his mayorship. He has since produced a report calling for them to be rolled out to Cambridge, MK, and (particularly) Oxford. This is massively good news for cycling.

    Second, he loathes HS2.

    How about the third runway at Heathrow?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am genuinely split on this. I am delighted that someone has tried to instil some rigour into written submissions but agree entirely that doing so as a new minister who already has the sort of reputation that JRM has is just asking to be mocked...

    I think you might mean rigor....
    You have a dead eye for a pun!
    Well Mogg is a grave threat to modernity.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,151
    I LOVE JRM!!!!! :D
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    GIN1138 said:

    I LOVE JRM!!!!! :D

    The most minister with a paramour is quite enough thank you .... :hushed:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    edited July 2019

    As a teenager, I had a keen interest in both WW1 and WW2 battleships, and learnt by heart both the imperial and metric for naval artillery calibre.

    Therefore, without Googling, I can tell you that:

    10 inches = 254 mm
    11 inches = 279 mm
    12 inches = 305 mm
    13 inches = 330 mm
    13.4 inches = 340 mm
    13.5 = 343 mm
    14 inches = 356 mm
    15 inches = 381 mm
    16 inches = 406 mm
    18 inches = 457 mm


    smaller warships main guns (or secondary armament for battleships):

    3 inches = 76 mm
    4 inches = 102 mm
    4.1 inches = 105 mm
    4.5 inches = 115 mm
    4.7 inches = 120 mm
    5 inches = 127 mm
    5.1 inches = 130 mm
    5.25 inches = 133 mm
    5.3 inches = 135 mm
    5.5 inches = 140 mm
    5.9 inches = 150 mm
    6 inches = 152 mm
    6.1 inches = 155 mm
    8 inches = 203 mm
    7.5 inches = 191 mm
    9.2 inches = 234 mm

    Anti-aircraft guns:

    20 mm = 0.8 inch
    25 mm = 1.0 inch
    37 mm = 1.5 inches
    40 mm = 1.6 inches
    47 mm = 1.9 inches
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Imperial vs Metric is a strange one.

    For example, does 5 inches sound bigger or smaller than 13 cm?

    To me it sounds bigger but I can't quite explain why.

    I think it's something to do with the 'centi' sound.

    Any particular reason why you are concerned specifically about whether 5 inches or 13 cm sounds bigger?

    You could always just exaggerate a bit of course. Nobody has a ruler on them to check and call you out on it in my experience.
    I guess you work in a different industry to me.
    Having trouble making ends meet between auditions?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I am pretty comfortable with Imperial measurements and generally use them over metric ones - it just comes more naturally. But I am 55. My kids genuinely would not know how to use them. This is Rees Mogg brand building, nothing more.

    I was taught in SI units at school 1968-71 and 50 years later only the USA and some twits in the UK insist on Imperial. Canada, Ireland, Australia, NZ and India are metric. Lord Kelvin in the 19th.C called the Imperial system complete with rods, chains, poles and perches 'brain-destroying'. Quite.
    I was taught metric in school. I teach in metric, if it comes to that. But I tend to use imperial for personal preference as I find it easier for division (and moreover, it's more widely used). It's harder to multiply, but I only really do that for distances and they're in miles anyway.
    The UK uses a charming mix of metric and imperial.

    Wine comes in 750ml bottles.

    Beer comes in pints.

    When the temperature is cold, we measure relative to the freezing point of water. But when it's hot, many of us switch into Farenheit.

    If we're going on a long journey, then the distance is in miles. If we're measuring the length of a beetle, then w're going to be using centimeters and milimeters.

    That is the British way. Charmingly inconsistent.
    And most British people like it that way. We don't like to be pinned down to one system or another. I always use imperial for height and distances but use metric for temperatures.
    I am very similar, I grew up with both. Baking/cooking is where I tend to use both - depending on the recipe. I do use metric for oven temperatures.

    I am glad I wasn't old enough to use old money. Decimalisation happened when I was 7 months!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    GIN1138 said:

    I LOVE JRM!!!!! :D

    LBGTQJRM....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Muppet
  • Just realised that Smithson has slipped in Moggsy - When my style guide clearly says Moggster.

    Either is fine but we should really decide now for future reference.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,827
    ydoethur said:

    He's wrong anyway. It's one space after a full stop.

    Dear god yes.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    As a teenager, I had a keen interest in both WW1 and WW2 battleships, and learnt by heart both the imperial and metric for naval artillery calibre.

    Therefore, without Googling, I can tell you that:

    10 inches = 254 mm
    11 inches = 279 mm
    12 inches = 305 mm
    13 inches = 330 mm
    13.4 inches = 340 mm
    14 inches = 356 mm
    15 inches = 381 mm
    16 inches = 406 mm
    18 inches = 457 mm


    smaller warships main guns (or secondary armament for battleships):

    3 inches = 76 mm
    4 inches = 102 mm
    4.1 inches = 105 mm
    4.5 inches = 115 mm
    4.7 inches = 120 mm
    5 inches = 127 mm
    5.1 inches = 130 mm
    5.25 inches = 133 mm
    5.3 inches = 135 mm
    5.5 inches = 140 mm
    5.9 inches = 150 mm
    6 inches = 152 mm
    6.1 inches = 155 mm
    8 inches = 203 mm
    7.5 inches = 191 mm
    9.2 inches = 234 mm

    Anti-aircraft guns:

    20 mm = 0.8 inch
    25 mm = 1.0 inch
    37 mm = 1.5 inches
    40 mm = 1.6 inches
    47 mm = 1.9 inches

    Most growing teenage boys certainly interested in size in inches but our @Sunil's weapon system was beyond measure !!!!!!!!! ..... :wink:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,827

    Just realised that Smithson has slipped in Moggsy - When my style guide clearly says Moggster.

    Either is fine but we should really decide now for future reference.

    You would both be wrong, he is the Moggmeister.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    kle4 said:

    Just realised that Smithson has slipped in Moggsy - When my style guide clearly says Moggster.

    Either is fine but we should really decide now for future reference.

    You would both be wrong, he is the Moggmeister.
    And who is the Moggmeister General? :D
  • DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Yeah well someone should have told Sue Townsend that.

    I read somewhere that over 90pc of penises are between 5 and 6 inches.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,307
    edited July 2019
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    And on the Continent they use centimetres and millimetres. What does that tell us? Eh Eh?
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Yeah well someone should have told Sue Townsend that.

    I read somewhere that over 90pc of penises are between 5 and 6 inches.
    John Prescott's isn't! :wink:
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Moggsquire
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1114065322120744961

    Why are Caroline Flint and co. allowed to get away with what they say without being challenged ? There is virtually no Labour seat that will be lost if Labour went full-throttle Remain.

    That is Rubbish.

    If a Labour Leave seat is 45% Labour 38% Tory, even if 80% of those Labour voters are Remainers if 20% are Leavers and vote for the Boris led Tory Party, the Tories win the seat 47%, to 36%
    But even if 20% of Labour voters there Leave, a far smaller percentage would see Brexit as so salient that other issues would not override it.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Yeah well someone should have told Sue Townsend that.

    I read somewhere that over 90pc of penises are between 5 and 6 inches.
    I always read that as a sign of A Mole’s hopeless gaucheness
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    Now I know what the P in PB stands for.

    Pineapple :smiley:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Yeah well someone should have told Sue Townsend that.

    I read somewhere that over 90pc of penises are between 5 and 6 inches.
    Not post prostate cancer they aren't. Memories, ah memories!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    Curiously, I think yard was a word for penis back in Rees-Mogg's day
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    And on the Continent they use centimetres and millimetres. What does that tell us? Eh Eh?
    They don't like it up them?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    It is one of the more obvious things that people on both sides of remain/leave get wrong. Remain journalists are so proud that they understand WTO rules better than the leave politicians that neither group has noticed WTO is particularly impotent and likely to become more so as global trade tensions increase.

    Countries will simply ignore the rules. We shouldnt worry about being in compliance with them on the Irish border. We should worry hugely about basing our trade policy on them and expecting other countries to behave according to the rules.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1114065322120744961

    Why are Caroline Flint and co. allowed to get away with what they say without being challenged ? There is virtually no Labour seat that will be lost if Labour went full-throttle Remain.

    That is Rubbish.

    If a Labour Leave seat is 45% Labour 38% Tory, even if 80% of those Labour voters are Remainers if 20% are Leavers and vote for the Boris led Tory Party, the Tories win the seat 47%, to 36%
    But even if 20% of Labour voters there Leave, a far smaller percentage would see Brexit as so salient that other issues would not override it.
    Only if Corbyn does not try and block Brexit with the LDs
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    Alas it's now the Rt Hon member for the 18th century. Brexiteers have always been berks and he's the prize berk of the lot.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Are you saying his foot is more than eleven inches?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871

    As a teenager, I had a keen interest in both WW1 and WW2 battleships, and learnt by heart both the imperial and metric for naval artillery calibre.

    Even on a site stuffed to the gills with nerds that's impressively niche knowledge.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    Curiously, I think yard was a word for penis back in Rees-Mogg's day
    No, foot:

    'With a good leg, uncle, and a good foot, and money in his purse. Why such a man would win any woman - if he could get her goodwill.'

    Much Ado About Nothing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    Curiously, I think yard was a word for penis back in Rees-Mogg's day
    One-tenth of a yard?

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1114065322120744961

    Why are Caroline Flint and co. allowed to get away with what they say without being challenged ? There is virtually no Labour seat that will be lost if Labour went full-throttle Remain.

    That is Rubbish.

    If a Labour Leave seat is 45% Labour 38% Tory, even if 80% of those Labour voters are Remainers if 20% are Leavers and vote for the Boris led Tory Party, the Tories win the seat 47%, to 36%
    But even if 20% of Labour voters there Leave, a far smaller percentage would see Brexit as so salient that other issues would not override it.
    Only if Corbyn does not try and block Brexit with the LDs
    It takes more than Corbyn plus LD to block it in Parliament.

    Brexit will wreck the economy and the Tories will be 9% at the following GE!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    Foot is good enough for me to measure my organ.

    Anything more than an eight foot horn is excessive.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 2019

    It is one of the more obvious things that people on both sides of remain/leave get wrong. Remain journalists are so proud that they understand WTO rules better than the leave politicians that neither group has noticed WTO is particularly impotent and likely to become more so as global trade tensions increase.

    Countries will simply ignore the rules. We shouldnt worry about being in compliance with them on the Irish border. We should worry hugely about basing our trade policy on them and expecting other countries to behave according to the rules.
    Which is why the ECJ will be so essential to the UK interest after Brexit. It is independent and has agency. We may no longer have any say in the rules that affect us, but the ECJ ensures other people abide by them.

    Yet another thing Leavers haven't thought through in their hostility.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    Chris_A said:

    Alas it's now the Rt Hon member for the 18th century. Brexiteers have always been berks and he's the prize berk of the lot.

    That’s Prize Berk, Esq., to you.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Yeah well someone should have told Sue Townsend that.

    I read somewhere that over 90pc of penises are between 5 and 6 inches.
    John Prescott's isn't! :wink:
    I wont ask the obvious question.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    FF43 said:

    It is one of the more obvious things that people on both sides of remain/leave get wrong. Remain journalists are so proud that they understand WTO rules better than the leave politicians that neither group has noticed WTO is particularly impotent and likely to become more so as global trade tensions increase.

    Countries will simply ignore the rules. We shouldnt worry about being in compliance with them on the Irish border. We should worry hugely about basing our trade policy on them and expecting other countries to behave according to the rules.
    Which is why the ECJ will be so essential to the UK interest after Brexit. It is independent and has agency. We may no longer have any say in the rules that affect us, but the ECJ ensures other people abide by them.

    Yet another thing Leavers haven't thought through in their hostility.
    ECJ are fully signed up to the federalist agenda. Absurd to suggest that they are independent.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Imperial measurements really need to just die out. I truly hate it that I think in miles. Nothing intrinsically wrong with a mile versus a meter, but everything is wrong with a mile having 1760 sub-units.

    There will be some small losses if we ditch the Imperial measurements forever - 'four minute mile', 'six foot tall', anything to do with distance in cricket, peoples weights, and of course a bastion of attack against the evil French. On the whole though, with great reluctance as to the last point, it makes no sense at all to try to hang on to a handicap when you've long been cured.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    edited July 2019
    ..
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205


    As a teenager, I had a keen interest in both WW1 and WW2 battleships, and learnt by heart both the imperial and metric for naval artillery calibre.

    (Snip)

    Sunil, in which case you (and other PBers) might be interested in Drachinfel's YouTube channel, which has lots and lots of military ship goodness:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/Drachinifel/featured

    IANAE on the topic, but it seems good to me, and he has a rather pleasant dry wit.
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    edited July 2019
    I agree with him about the phrase 'not fit for purpose' - since John Reid said it back in 2006 about the Home Office it has become one of the most tediously overused phrases in political/media speak.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    Give Mogg 2.54 cm and he will take 1609 metres
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I am pretty comfortable with Imperial measurements and generally use them over metric ones - it just comes more naturally. But I am 55. My kids genuinely would not know how to use them. This is Rees Mogg brand building, nothing more.

    I was taught in SI units at school 1968-71 and 50 years later only the USA and some twits in the UK insist on Imperial. Canada, Ireland, Australia, NZ and India are metric. Lord Kelvin in the 19th.C called the Imperial system complete with rods, chains, poles and perches 'brain-destroying'. Quite.
    I was taught metric in school. I teach in metric, if it comes to that. But I tend to use imperial for personal preference as I find it easier for division (and moreover, it's more widely used). It's harder to multiply, but I only really do that for distances and they're in miles anyway.
    The UK uses a charming mix of metric and imperial.

    Wine comes in 750ml bottles.

    Beer comes in pints.

    When the temperature is cold, we measure relative to the freezing point of water. But when it's hot, many of us switch into Farenheit.

    If we're going on a long journey, then the distance is in miles. If we're measuring the length of a beetle, then w're going to be using centimeters and milimeters.

    That is the British way. Charmingly inconsistent.
    And most British people like it that way. We don't like to be pinned down to one system or another. I always use imperial for height and distances but use metric for temperatures.
    I am very similar, I grew up with both. Baking/cooking is where I tend to use both - depending on the recipe. I do use metric for oven temperatures.

    I am glad I wasn't old enough to use old money. Decimalisation happened when I was 7 months!
    Good job decimalisation happened when it did. It would never happen today, the nostalgia/Brexit industry would scream blue murder and stop it.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited July 2019
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1114065322120744961

    Why are Caroline Flint and co. allowed to get away with what they say without being challenged ? There is virtually no Labour seat that will be lost if Labour went full-throttle Remain.

    That is Rubbish.

    If a Labour Leave seat is 45% Labour 38% Tory, even if 80% of those Labour voters are Remainers if 20% are Leavers and vote for the Boris led Tory Party, the Tories win the seat 47%, to 36%
    But even if 20% of Labour voters there Leave, a far smaller percentage would see Brexit as so salient that other issues would not override it.
    Only if Corbyn does not try and block Brexit with the LDs
    But you simply don't know that! I myself voted Leave - yet as an issue it has very low saliency for me despite being a political anorak. I recognise its importance , but were I intending to vote Labour next time other subjects would easily override it. For very few such voters would 'Getting the Tories out' not trump Brexit.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,502



    I have used kgs to monitor my weight loss as that is the measurement my GP uses for my diabetes control

    I have lost 15 kgs since April (planned) but as my wife and I think imperial first I convert it and it converts to 2 stone and five pounds

    And I feel fitter and do not need medication to control my diabetes

    However you like to measure it, that's great - congratulations!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    Esquire?

    Had him down more of a "The Chap" magazine man :lol:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    houndtang said:

    I agree with him about the phrase 'not fit for purpose' - since John Reid said it back in 2005 about the Home Office it has become one of the most tediously overused phrases in political/media speak.

    That doesn't mean it should be banned, or otherwise censured. All that'll happen is that people will replace it with wordier and less pithy phrases.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,827
    houndtang said:

    I agree with him about the phrase 'not fit for purpose' - since John Reid said it back in 2006 about the Home Office it has become one of the most tediously overused phrases in political/media speak.

    Well in fairness it's all good fun but most places have a style guide, and they're bound to have something in them that a lot of people get irritated by or do not agree with.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Yeah well someone should have told Sue Townsend that.

    I read somewhere that over 90pc of penises are between 5 and 6 inches.
    John Prescott's isn't! :wink:
    I wont ask the obvious question.
    Tracey Temple - "party sausage" :smiley:
  • houndtang said:

    I agree with him about the phrase 'not fit for purpose' - since John Reid said it back in 2006 about the Home Office it has become one of the most tediously overused phrases in political/media speak.

    That's some great etymology there.

    Well played esquire.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,469
    The oddest one is how some people measure the speed of a cricket delivery in kmph.

    A 100mph delivery had an almost unobtainable greatness to it which a 160kmph delivery can never have.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Scott_P said:
    The words to be not longer than one syllable.

    No, silla bull, Minister. It means words must not be longer, er, more than a certain, particular, screw it...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749



    I have used kgs to monitor my weight loss as that is the measurement my GP uses for my diabetes control

    I have lost 15 kgs since April (planned) but as my wife and I think imperial first I convert it and it converts to 2 stone and five pounds

    And I feel fitter and do not need medication to control my diabetes

    However you like to measure it, that's great - congratulations!
    Thanks Nick.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    The oddest one is how some people measure the speed of a cricket delivery in kmph.

    A 100mph delivery had an almost unobtainable greatness to it which a 160kmph delivery can never have.

    Wouldn't it have to be 160.9kph to equal 100mph?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,827
    Aspirational and holistic are two words I would be happy to never see in reports ever again.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    The oddest one is how some people measure the speed of a cricket delivery in kmph.

    A 100mph delivery had an almost unobtainable greatness to it which a 160kmph delivery can never have.

    We are the only cricket playing nation still using imperial for anything
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Scott_P said:
    I can see some sense in that. If you want a non-specialist minister to actually read and understand briefings on topics that can sometimes be esoteric and jargon-laden, then limiting the length might be wise.

    In the same way it's best to keep CVs to two or three sides rather than ten-page tomes.

    Even better, there's probably a tendency just to reformat existing documents for use internally and send them out. This might force the sender to actually consider what the minister needs to know.

    If it needs to be more than two pages, it might be best to reference other documents.

    However it would be worrying if this applies only to rail, and not other areas under his remit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
    The next best thing was to withhold briefing papers or fail to include relevant information in summaries.

    See 'The Right to Know' where Hacker refers to this problem as Catch-22.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    It is one of the more obvious things that people on both sides of remain/leave get wrong. Remain journalists are so proud that they understand WTO rules better than the leave politicians that neither group has noticed WTO is particularly impotent and likely to become more so as global trade tensions increase.

    Countries will simply ignore the rules. We shouldnt worry about being in compliance with them on the Irish border. We should worry hugely about basing our trade policy on them and expecting other countries to behave according to the rules.
    We not only always obey the rules we usually gold plate them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TOPPING said:

    It is one of the more obvious things that people on both sides of remain/leave get wrong. Remain journalists are so proud that they understand WTO rules better than the leave politicians that neither group has noticed WTO is particularly impotent and likely to become more so as global trade tensions increase.

    Countries will simply ignore the rules. We shouldnt worry about being in compliance with them on the Irish border. We should worry hugely about basing our trade policy on them and expecting other countries to behave according to the rules.
    We not only always obey the rules we usually gold plate them.
    More fool us.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,827
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
    It might well be the best way, but it is still perfectly easy to bamboozle in a brief document, you just have to be more creative. Any old fool can bury something useful within a barrage of text, to manage it in a brief document requires skill. You'd be surprised what people can miss even in a pretty plain executive summary.

    So it won't achieve what he thinks it will.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    DougSeal said:

    The oddest one is how some people measure the speed of a cricket delivery in kmph.

    A 100mph delivery had an almost unobtainable greatness to it which a 160kmph delivery can never have.

    We are the only imperial using nation still playing cricket
    Corrected it for you! :lol:

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    houndtang said:

    I agree with him about the phrase 'not fit for purpose' - since John Reid said it back in 2005 about the Home Office it has become one of the most tediously overused phrases in political/media speak.

    That doesn't mean it should be banned, or otherwise censured. All that'll happen is that people will replace it with wordier and less pithy phrases.
    I'd certainly not ban such an abomination.

    Merely shooting anyone that utters such a horrible phrase should be enough. I do agree that shooting them multiple times is a clear corrolary.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,827
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
    The next best thing was to withhold briefing papers or fail to include relevant information in summaries.

    See 'The Right to Know' where Hacker refers to this problem as Catch-22.
    Presumably why most decision makers prefer to risk being overloaded with info, or rely on trusted advisers to parse the detail, rather than risk not being given everything they need by an insistence on brevity.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kle4 said:

    It might well be the best way, but it is still perfectly easy to bamboozle in a brief document, you just have to be more creative. Any old fool can bury something useful within a barrage of text, to manage it in a brief document requires skill. You'd be surprised what people can miss even in a pretty plain executive summary.

    So it won't achieve what he thinks it will.

    I was discussing a spreadsheet with an erstwhile boss, expressing concern about a particular number, when he told me not to worry about it.

    When I asked why, he said it was made up.

    How did he know?

    It was the only round number on the entire page...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited July 2019
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
    The next best thing was to withhold briefing papers or fail to include relevant information in summaries.

    See 'The Right to Know' where Hacker refers to this problem as Catch-22.
    Presumably why most decision makers prefer to risk being overloaded with info, or rely on trusted advisers to parse the detail, rather than risk not being given everything they need by an insistence on brevity.
    One of Blair's weaknesses was that he wouldn't read full briefing papers - only summaries. That led to quick decisions that were usually not very successful. Major insisted on reading all the papers if he had a big decision to make, even if he had to stay up half the night. That did however tire him out and impair his judgement.

    Somewhere there must be a compromise without having the extraordinary ability of Thatcher to master huge and complex documents in moments.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,469
    DougSeal said:

    The oddest one is how some people measure the speed of a cricket delivery in kmph.

    A 100mph delivery had an almost unobtainable greatness to it which a 160kmph delivery can never have.

    We are the only cricket playing nation still using imperial for anything
    So what are the measurements on a football pitch ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,418
    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    It might well be the best way, but it is still perfectly easy to bamboozle in a brief document, you just have to be more creative. Any old fool can bury something useful within a barrage of text, to manage it in a brief document requires skill. You'd be surprised what people can miss even in a pretty plain executive summary.

    So it won't achieve what he thinks it will.

    I was discussing a spreadsheet with an erstwhile boss, expressing concern about a particular number, when he told me not to worry about it.

    When I asked why, he said it was made up.

    How did he know?

    It was the only round number on the entire page...
    Could have been using the ROUND function surely?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    It is one of the more obvious things that people on both sides of remain/leave get wrong. Remain journalists are so proud that they understand WTO rules better than the leave politicians that neither group has noticed WTO is particularly impotent and likely to become more so as global trade tensions increase.

    Countries will simply ignore the rules. We shouldnt worry about being in compliance with them on the Irish border. We should worry hugely about basing our trade policy on them and expecting other countries to behave according to the rules.
    We not only always obey the rules we usually gold plate them.
    More fool us.
    = Brexit
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Could have been using the ROUND function surely?

    No, the guy that wrote it just guessed.

    BTW, this happened in the DSS offices at Longbenton (before they were demolished)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    edited July 2019
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    DougSeal said:

    It warms the cockles of my Great British heart that, despite the meddling of Jonny Foreigner, penises have been, and always will be, measured in inches. Doubtless feet and inches in JRM’s case.

    Speak for yourself I measure mine in Yards!
    Curiously, I think yard was a word for penis back in Rees-Mogg's day
    No, foot:

    'With a good leg, uncle, and a good foot, and money in his purse. Why such a man would win any woman - if he could get her goodwill.'

    Much Ado About Nothing.
    Shakespeare had many words for it - including half his surname.

    He had rather more for vagina, though including ‘ell’, a measurement of 45 inches - which would, of course, accommodate a yard.


    Strangely, ‘mogg’ does not appear at all.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Off-topic:

    for anyone wanting a nightmare-plagued night, here's an article about brain-eating amoeba.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/07/brain-eating-amoeba-kills-again-heres-how-it-kills-and-how-to-avoid-it/
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Barnesian said:

    Well they still use imperial and metric in airplane building.

    I'm all for metric btw

    Yeah - the aerospace part my employer is still all imperial. I wonder if that is because of the strength of Boeing?

    Do you know if Airbus standardise in metric or imperial?
    I think it's NASA that's the outlier by going all metric. The mixture doesn't necessarily add confusion as long as everyone does it.
    Perhaps this is why NASA has gone all metric
    http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/

    NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.
    By law the US government has been metric for internal purposes since the 70s. (In practice I suspect it's only the more techie bits like NASA that rigidly follow the rule though.) NASA would expect its contractors to be using metric too, so it was clearly Lockheed Martin's fault.

    The US military, like the British, has been metric since it was adopted as the NATO standard, not sure when but probably in the 50s.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    It might well be the best way, but it is still perfectly easy to bamboozle in a brief document, you just have to be more creative. Any old fool can bury something useful within a barrage of text, to manage it in a brief document requires skill. You'd be surprised what people can miss even in a pretty plain executive summary.

    So it won't achieve what he thinks it will.

    I was discussing a spreadsheet with an erstwhile boss, expressing concern about a particular number, when he told me not to worry about it.

    When I asked why, he said it was made up.

    How did he know?

    It was the only round number on the entire page...
    They are rare, but they sometimes happen. Initial measurement of Everest, for example.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    DougSeal said:

    The oddest one is how some people measure the speed of a cricket delivery in kmph.

    A 100mph delivery had an almost unobtainable greatness to it which a 160kmph delivery can never have.

    We are the only cricket playing nation still using imperial for anything
    So what are the measurements on a football pitch ?
    Milli-Gascoignes. Four million of those make a "serious attack" and twenty-six are deemed a Brooking unless it's tuesday. The great unity of the system is that the Planks are infinite.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,803
    Scott_P said:
    Interesting, do you know the context of the memo? Clearly about some sort of continental forgery.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited July 2019
    ..
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 452



    I was taught in SI units at school 1968-71 and 50 years later only the USA and some twits in the UK insist on Imperial. Canada, Ireland, Australia, NZ and India are metric. Lord Kelvin in the 19th.C called the Imperial system complete with rods, chains, poles and perches 'brain-destroying'. Quite.

    Even the NYSE went decimal a few years ago.
    And yet I work in probably one of the most hi-tec industries in the world and everything is done in non metric units. Personally I think it is great to be fluent in both and it really isn't that hard.
    Except that is not the case. I work in engineering, in biopharma specifically, and even in American companies the inch is being phased out for the millimetre.
    As I said, the oil industry all works in non metric. At least on the drilling and production side. Even European countries tend to work in non metric units - feet, inches, barrels, psi etc.

    In a few weeks I will be geosteering a well drilling 6" hole horizontally in a formation less than 10ft thick at 10,000 feet below sea level and 25,000 feet away from the tophole location. I will be using the most advanced technology on earth to do this and everything will be measured in non-metric units.

    I am not in anyway opposed to metric and happily use it where necessary. But the idea that imperial measurements are disappearing any time soon or that our kids shouldn't know them is simply wrong.
    Describing the Oil & Gas industry as the most "advanced technology on earth" really destroys your credibility there.

    What units do they use in space travel again?

    Your advanced technology will do everything in metric and then spit it out in imperial for your pleasure.
    Nope

    As per Joinery standards I have tried to explain - they used a mixture of both imperial and metric for space travel.
    What has that got to do with anything? I'm not doubting your joinery knowledge.

    NASA has used metric exclusively since the early 90s.
    Not true. NASA has ostensibly used metric since around 1990 but some missions still used imperial units and some used both. In 2007 NASA announced that it had decided to use metric for all operations on the lunar surface. NASA's official policy is to maximise the use of metric units but English units can still be used if failure to do so would cause a significant increase in costs or delays to the schedule.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Scott_P said:
    Will the temperature be measured in Fahrenheit?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
    The next best thing was to withhold briefing papers or fail to include relevant information in summaries.

    See 'The Right to Know' where Hacker refers to this problem as Catch-22.
    Presumably why most decision makers prefer to risk being overloaded with info, or rely on trusted advisers to parse the detail, rather than risk not being given everything they need by an insistence on brevity.
    One of Blair's weaknesses was that he wouldn't read full briefing papers - only summaries. That led to quick decisions that were usually not very successful. Major insisted on reading all the papers if he had a big decision to make, even if he had to stay up half the night. That did however tire him out and impair his judgement.

    Somewhere there must be a compromise without having the extraordinary ability of Thatcher to master huge and complex documents in moments.
    To be fair to Major, I don't think he had a judgement problem as Labour under Tony Blair largely continued his policies on the economy with a few tweaks i.e. Minimum wage.

    Major's problem was Europe and the wafer thin Commons majority similar to May that was insufficiently robust to pilot the nation to his preferred destination. I don't think John Major had impaired judgement.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Omnium said:

    houndtang said:

    I agree with him about the phrase 'not fit for purpose' - since John Reid said it back in 2005 about the Home Office it has become one of the most tediously overused phrases in political/media speak.

    That doesn't mean it should be banned, or otherwise censured. All that'll happen is that people will replace it with wordier and less pithy phrases.
    I'd certainly not ban such an abomination.

    Merely shooting anyone that utters such a horrible phrase should be enough. I do agree that shooting them multiple times is a clear corrolary.
    Are you saying it's not fit for purpose?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited July 2019
    Possible additions to the list are myriad. For instance, especially for old Etonians, learn how to:
    change a nappy;
    distinguish one end of a screwdriver from the other;
    put toothpaste on a toothbrush;
    pronounce simple words like CONtroversy.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,469

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Meh, that sort of makes sense. Yes Minister showed the best way to bamboozle a minister was to overload them with briefing papers.
    The next best thing was to withhold briefing papers or fail to include relevant information in summaries.

    See 'The Right to Know' where Hacker refers to this problem as Catch-22.
    Presumably why most decision makers prefer to risk being overloaded with info, or rely on trusted advisers to parse the detail, rather than risk not being given everything they need by an insistence on brevity.
    One of Blair's weaknesses was that he wouldn't read full briefing papers - only summaries. That led to quick decisions that were usually not very successful. Major insisted on reading all the papers if he had a big decision to make, even if he had to stay up half the night. That did however tire him out and impair his judgement.

    Somewhere there must be a compromise without having the extraordinary ability of Thatcher to master huge and complex documents in moments.
    To be fair to Major, I don't think he had a judgement problem as Labour under Tony Blair largely continued his policies on the economy with a few tweaks i.e. Minimum wage.

    Major's problem was Europe and the wafer thin Commons majority similar to May that was insufficiently robust to pilot the nation to his preferred destination. I don't think John Major had impaired judgement.
    ERM
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,297
    I'm still triggered by this

    https://twitter.com/mikecolton/status/884843351479992321

    Though the New Yorker did make a decent attempt to defend the abomination

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-correct-punctuation-of-donald-trump-jrs-name
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Toms said:

    pronounce simple words like CONtroversy.

    That one's CONtroversial
This discussion has been closed.