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  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,358

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL! That will be the weirdest pairing since Clarke and Redwood teamed up! :D
    Not really.

    Gove is a moderniser at heart - arguably to a fault, since not everything is broken.

    Brexit is the odd one out.

    Who gets PM???
    Sorry their both unelectable weirdos...
  • PhukovPhukov Posts: 132

    In other news, a wee insight into the impact on SCons of the poll revealing 63% of Con members see losing Scotland as as price worth paying for Brexit (the figs were pretty much reversed in the sub sample of SCon respondees).

    https://twitter.com/sparkyhamill/status/1141264383403855872

    'Uhm beggin' yae!'

    'Where's your self respect?!'

    I really feel for Scottish unionist conservatives. They are utterly homeless right now.
    But that's a function of conservatism: if you aren't currently useful, you're on your own. Maybe some of them will see the light over this?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What was Abdullah saying on twitter before his account mysteriously vanished this morning?

    The jews, the jews, the jews...i am a massive fan of corbyn...the jews...evil tories.

    So just your regular member of the public.
    It doesn't invalidate his question though about words having consequences.
    Good to see the left rowing back on their no platforming of people with controversial views

    So if Foxy (who is, I believe, a Lib Dem) represents "the left", are you spokesperson for "the far right" ?
    A lot of Lib Dems especially of the SDP-vein of the party (including I believe Foxy) are on the left. Hence the talk of splitting the vote versus Thatcher and cries of betrayal when they entered the Coalition with the Conservatives.

    Do you think if there had been a Labour/Lib Dem Coalition there would have been comparable complaints of betrayal?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,124
    edited June 2019

    twitter.com/RobBurl/status/1141278189773344768

    Sneaky...

    Shouldnt that have been a bit of a red flag? Also you can still search in a number if different ways of somebodies old tweets even if account isnt activated.
  • PhukovPhukov Posts: 132

    Phukov said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL! That will be the weirdest pairing since Clarke and Redwood teamed up! :D
    Not really.

    Gove is a moderniser at heart - arguably to a fault, since not everything is broken.

    Brexit is the odd one out.

    Who gets PM???
    Boris
    I guess the idea is the Boris wants to face Hunt in final, so let's give him Gove instead with Rory as his FCO.
    I really don't get that. Boris will win against whomever. But surely facing a weirdo like Gove is better. I mean, Hunt seems relatively normal, so when Boris's admin goes tits up, people will think "if only we had chosen the other guy!" But if it was Gove, it'd be more "well, it didn't go well, but we couldn't really have chosen pob."
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    edited June 2019

    Blimey. That throws up a major problem for broadcasters and so on doing background.
    Get a pollster to randomly select members of the public?

    EDIT: Or members of the relevant party given they're the ones with the votes in the contest.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,477
    It is deeply worrying that who our next PM will be is in the gift of the tiny section of the population who happen to be paid up members of the Conservative Party.

    However, I was reassured by this quote from a typical member of that select group of individuals -

    Mr Edwards believes Mr Johnson has the best chance of securing a deal on 31 October, if he has the right cabinet.

    "If he can get Jacob Rees-Mogg and Esther McVey in the cabinet they would be the real structure... and he could just be the celebrity," he added.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,017

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What was Abdullah saying on twitter before his account mysteriously vanished this morning?

    The jews, the jews, the jews...i am a massive fan of corbyn...the jews...evil tories.

    So just your regular member of the public.
    It doesn't invalidate his question though about words having consequences.
    Good to see the left rowing back on their no platforming of people with controversial views

    So if Foxy (who is, I believe, a Lib Dem) represents "the left", are you spokesperson for "the far right" ?
    A lot of Lib Dems especially of the SDP-vein of the party (including I believe Foxy) are on the left. Hence the talk of splitting the vote versus Thatcher and cries of betrayal when they entered the Coalition with the Conservatives.

    Do you think if there had been a Labour/Lib Dem Coalition there would have been comparable complaints of betrayal?
    Betrayal is in the DNA of the LibDems. You can't trust them.

    If you want left, then vote for a left wing party. If you want right, then vote for a right wing party.
  • PhukovPhukov Posts: 132

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What was Abdullah saying on twitter before his account mysteriously vanished this morning?

    The jews, the jews, the jews...i am a massive fan of corbyn...the jews...evil tories.

    So just your regular member of the public.
    It doesn't invalidate his question though about words having consequences.
    Good to see the left rowing back on their no platforming of people with controversial views

    So if Foxy (who is, I believe, a Lib Dem) represents "the left", are you spokesperson for "the far right" ?
    A lot of Lib Dems especially of the SDP-vein of the party (including I believe Foxy) are on the left. Hence the talk of splitting the vote versus Thatcher and cries of betrayal when they entered the Coalition with the Conservatives.

    Do you think if there had been a Labour/Lib Dem Coalition there would have been comparable complaints of betrayal?
    Betrayal is in the DNA of the LibDems. You can't trust them.

    If you want left, then vote for a left wing party. If you want right, then vote for a right wing party.
    And if you're a liberal?
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,248
    My delayed verdict on BBC's PM farce last night.
    Boris 5/10 Still gives an impression of winging it. That worries me.
    Hunt 7/10 Better than expected. Should be in final 2
    Gove 6/10 OK but too earnest to be a PM of the people
    Javid 6/10 Mixed. A bit desperate at times but one for the next race
    Stewart 4/10 Weirdo totally unsuited for PM role
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,062
    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What was Abdullah saying on twitter before his account mysteriously vanished this morning?

    The jews, the jews, the jews...i am a massive fan of corbyn...the jews...evil tories.

    So just your regular member of the public.
    It doesn't invalidate his question though about words having consequences.
    Good to see the left rowing back on their no platforming of people with controversial views

    So if Foxy (who is, I believe, a Lib Dem) represents "the left", are you spokesperson for "the far right" ?
    Hello, it’s Jeremy Paxman!
    Sauce for the goose...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,453
    kinabalu said:

    It is deeply worrying that who our next PM will be is in the gift of the tiny section of the population who happen to be paid up members of the Conservative Party.

    However, I was reassured by this quote from a typical member of that select group of individuals -

    Mr Edwards believes Mr Johnson has the best chance of securing a deal on 31 October, if he has the right cabinet.

    "If he can get Jacob Rees-Mogg and Esther McVey in the cabinet they would be the real structure... and he could just be the celebrity," he added.

    It's not enough. We need Farage in the cabinet too. And Ann Widdecombe. And scour the psychiatric wards too for some extra talent.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,841
    edited June 2019

    eek said:

    JackW said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Does anyone else think that the leadership election has some elements of the Labour one with Rory being the outsider who is lent votes to 'widen the conversation'? Let's hope he doesn't do a Corbyn.

    With the exception that Boris will win easily against Rory. Boris supporters in the constituencies are the Corbynites in Labour.

    Boris will be a better PM (low bar I know) if he's tested severely by Rory in the final two.
    Boris would be a better leader if Rory were in his Cabinet, forcefully making a different case to that of the PM, week after week, then being bound by the collective responsibility of Cabinet. But (unwisely in my view) Rory has ruled himself out of being in a position to deliver that role.
    Why is that unwise. Collective responsibility during a s**tstorm that will be Brexit could destroy him as it will everyone in the cabinet.

    Rory sitting remote waiting for the hour (I won't say day as I suspect it will be very rapid) when things go pearshaped is the sensible plan.
    No - it will just be put about that he absented himself from having been able to prevent/lessen that shitstorm.

    PM Boris should still offer him a post - and make Rory decide to decline it.
    No he shouldn't. He'll just leverage any post with threats to resign from it, so why not fast forward to the end point already?
    Resigning from Cabinet seems to have certain merit with a sizeable chunk of the Conservative Parliamentary Party..... Fast-track to being PM.

    But not if you'd rather go walkaout.
    The new PM should vet all potential Cabinet ministers to ensure they are onboard fully with his plan, including all eventualities. If they're not then they shouldn't be appointed.
    What plan?
    Brexit by Oct 31, deal if possible, no deal if it can't be agreed.
    It's something - but I'm not sure it's a plan more a suicide pact.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    Mr. Patel seems to be the only thing to have come out of the debate that makes it to the end of the news cycle.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,062

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    What was Abdullah saying on twitter before his account mysteriously vanished this morning?

    The jews, the jews, the jews...i am a massive fan of corbyn...the jews...evil tories.

    So just your regular member of the public.
    It doesn't invalidate his question though about words having consequences.
    Good to see the left rowing back on their no platforming of people with controversial views

    So if Foxy (who is, I believe, a Lib Dem) represents "the left", are you spokesperson for "the far right" ?
    A lot of Lib Dems especially of the SDP-vein of the party (including I believe Foxy) are on the left. Hence the talk of splitting the vote versus Thatcher and cries of betrayal when they entered the Coalition with the Conservatives.

    Do you think if there had been a Labour/Lib Dem Coalition there would have been comparable complaints of betrayal?
    A LibDem / Corbyn coalition ?
    There'd be complaints of insanity.

    Back then... keeping Brown in power, ditto.

    That you seem able only to consider the centre ground as the enabler of one or other of the political extremes is your problem.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006
    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    Meanwhile of them all Hunt emerged for me as the most likely to succeed. His "no deal" seriously worried me but I think Rory ruled himself out (shame for my large green on him), as did Boris, while Gove's solipsistic crap will surely not wash and The Saj was a bit meh.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Chris said:

    It's not enough. We need Farage in the cabinet too. And Ann Widdecombe. And scour the psychiatric wards too for some extra talent.

    Tommy Robinson too ....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,239
    Phukov said:

    In other news, a wee insight into the impact on SCons of the poll revealing 63% of Con members see losing Scotland as as price worth paying for Brexit (the figs were pretty much reversed in the sub sample of SCon respondees).

    https://twitter.com/sparkyhamill/status/1141264383403855872

    'Uhm beggin' yae!'

    'Where's your self respect?!'

    I really feel for Scottish unionist conservatives. They are utterly homeless right now.
    But that's a function of conservatism: if you aren't currently useful, you're on your own. Maybe some of them will see the light over this?
    I think the the party hacks are too far entrenched in the 'Brexit is the will of the British people and must be enacted' position to extricate themselves without a great deal of difficulty, though there must be an interesting turmoil of feelings in their breasts currently.

    As ever it's the voters that count. If you're a reasonably strong Unionist (absent all the sectarian, Brexit, Trump, EUSSR bollox) and thought the Tories were the protector of your unionism, how will you be feeling?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,629

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    LOL! That will be the weirdest pairing since Clarke and Redwood teamed up! :D
    Not really.

    Gove is a moderniser at heart - arguably to a fault, since not everything is broken.

    Brexit is the odd one out.

    Who gets PM???
    Abdullah Patel?
  • Blimey. That throws up a major problem for broadcasters and so on doing background.
    You need a contract with everyone you put on screen saying that - if they have not declared anything in their social media over the last x years that breaches the rules of their appearance - they will be personally liable to pay the broadcaster the sum of £y enforceable by court action. Might focus minds a bit
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Topped up on Gove at 50s and 40s last night .
    Wonder if he has Cummings back on board.

    This could be a fun ride.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    BBC - Team Gove denies talks with Rory Stewart about any deal.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219
    Scott_P said:

    You may quibble at the source of this article, but there are lots of uncomfortable truths in it for any sensible Tories still listening...

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1141265370998804481

    The welfare state has not been destroyed over the past nine years. We have an enormous welfare state, and the government spends the equivalent of 41% of national income.
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 390
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is deeply worrying that who our next PM will be is in the gift of the tiny section of the population who happen to be paid up members of the Conservative Party.

    However, I was reassured by this quote from a typical member of that select group of individuals -

    Mr Edwards believes Mr Johnson has the best chance of securing a deal on 31 October, if he has the right cabinet.

    "If he can get Jacob Rees-Mogg and Esther McVey in the cabinet they would be the real structure... and he could just be the celebrity," he added.

    It's not enough. We need Farage in the cabinet too. And Ann Widdecombe. And scour the psychiatric wards too for some extra talent.
    They could always exhume Woodrow Wyatt? Or at least feed his prodigious writing output into a reasonably competent AI and consult it?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    You may quibble at the source of this article, but there are lots of uncomfortable truths in it for any sensible Tories still listening...

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1141265370998804481

    The welfare state has not been destroyed over the past nine years. We have an enormous welfare state, and the government spends the equivalent of 41% of national income.
    Last night’s televised BBC debate saw five privileged men in suits bellowing over each other using a weird vocabulary of sycophancy and hubris.

    I thought Javid was the son of a bus driver?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    edited June 2019
    TOPPING said:

    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    I don't understand why you think that is mendacious. have you misunderstood him? It's surely correct that if a deal is close, the EU27 would almost certainly rapidly grant an extension if necessary; it only needs the Council to agree, which can be done very quickly. He wasn't saying it would only take 24 hours to agree a new deal.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    Scott_P said:
    Well that escalated really quickly!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    You may quibble at the source of this article, but there are lots of uncomfortable truths in it for any sensible Tories still listening...

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1141265370998804481

    The welfare state has not been destroyed over the past nine years. We have an enormous welfare state, and the government spends the equivalent of 41% of national income.
    Last night’s televised BBC debate saw five privileged men in suits bellowing over each other using a weird vocabulary of sycophancy and hubris.

    I thought Javid was the son of a bus driver?
    Yeah, the article is a load of prejudiced tosh.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,358
    JackW said:

    BBC - Team Gove denies talks with Rory Stewart about any deal.

    Gove is always scheming,,,
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,005

    eek said:

    JackW said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Does anyone else think that the leadership election has some elements of the Labour one with Rory being the outsider who is lent votes to 'widen the conversation'? Let's hope he doesn't do a Corbyn.

    With the exception that Boris will win easily against Rory. Boris supporters in the constituencies are the Corbynites in Labour.

    Boris will be a better PM (low bar I know) if he's tested severely by Rory in the final two.
    Boris would be a better leader if Rory were in his Cabinet, forcefully making a different case to that of the PM, week after week, then being bound by the collective responsibility of Cabinet. But (unwisely in my view) Rory has ruled himself out of being in a position to deliver that role.
    Why is that unwise. Collective responsibility during a s**tstorm that will be Brexit could destroy him as it will everyone in the cabinet.

    Rory sitting remote waiting for the hour (I won't say day as I suspect it will be very rapid) when things go pearshaped is the sensible plan.
    No - it will just be put about that he absented himself from having been able to prevent/lessen that shitstorm.

    PM Boris should still offer him a post - and make Rory decide to decline it.
    No he shouldn't. He'll just leverage any post with threats to resign from it, so why not fast forward to the end point already?
    Resigning from Cabinet seems to have certain merit with a sizeable chunk of the Conservative Parliamentary Party..... Fast-track to being PM.

    But not if you'd rather go walkaout.
    The new PM should vet all potential Cabinet ministers to ensure they are onboard fully with his plan, including all eventualities. If they're not then they shouldn't be appointed.
    What plan?
    Brexit by Oct 31, deal if possible, no deal if it can't be agreed.
    No deal isn't a plan.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,886
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006

    TOPPING said:

    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    I don't understand why you think that is mendacious. have you misunderstood him? It's surely correct that if a deal is close, the EU27 would almost certainly rapidly grant an extension; it only needs the Council to agree, which can be done very quickly. He wasn't saying it would only take 24 hours to agree a new deal.
    He wanted to minimise in peoples' minds the amount of delay that would likely be necessary and hence chose a frankly absurd time, namely one day. I mean the principle of delaying if a deal was in the offing makes perfect sense but he was obviously scared of saying something like "a few months" because he worried that he would be named and shamed as a Remainer so hence took the frankly bizarre position of saying our leaving would only be delayed by a day. I mean what set of circumstances can you imagine that it would only be a day extra required to do a deal? Makes no sense whatsoever.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037
    Noted sage Robert Peston thinks it will be Gove vs Boris. I'd better close my position!

    https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-19/which-tory-will-face-boris-johnson-in-the-members-ballot-asks-robert-peston/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    At this rate, it'd be easier to list the guests who aren't ropey.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    TOPPING said:

    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    I don't understand why you think that is mendacious. have you misunderstood him? It's surely correct that if a deal is close, the EU27 would almost certainly rapidly grant an extension if necessary; it only needs the Council to agree, which can be done very quickly. He wasn't saying it would only take 24 hours to agree a new deal.
    It came over to me that they were saying if the deal, which can’t be renegotiated, only required a couple of days to complete then they would seek an extension for a couple of days.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,358
    edited June 2019
    Well I thought that shouty woman who claimed to have a husband with a property empire and a son working in the city came across more like a member of the socialist workers party FWIW... :D
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,062

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    TGOHF said:

    dr_spyn said:

    dr_spyn said:

    It appears that Guido has had a look at a twitter feed of one of the questioners last night. He appears to have some very robust views, the uncharitable would wonder why he was chosen to speak on air.

    https://order-order.com/2019/06/19/abdullah-bristol-wants-know-panel-agree-words-consequences/

    That Boris-booster Guido was even looking makes one suspect that he was not impressed by his man's handling of the question, especially when he let the Saj bounce him into conceding an inquiry (even if it can be kicked into the long grass).
    For some reason, the quoted twitter feed has gone. May be some surprised Guardian journalists and readers this morning.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/19/disappointing-and-deluded-imam-lambasts-tory-hopefuls-on-islamophobia
    All the woketard boxes were ticked with the questions last night - phobias, dead polar bears, evil cuts.

    All added to the farce.
    I think the clue was in the title "Our Next PM" so the questions came from across the political spectrum. They did not treat it as what it is, a leadership contest in a party currently running at 20% in the polls.
    Combine the Tories and the Brexit Party though and you get to over 40% in the polls, the Tories only stay around 20% and neck and neck with the Brexit Party if they fail to pick Boris
    Combine the unicorns and the dragons and you get a phoenix.
    No, you'd just get toasted unicorn.

    The closest thing to a chimera of the two is probably the Chinese Longma.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    I don't understand why you think that is mendacious. have you misunderstood him? It's surely correct that if a deal is close, the EU27 would almost certainly rapidly grant an extension; it only needs the Council to agree, which can be done very quickly. He wasn't saying it would only take 24 hours to agree a new deal.
    He wanted to minimise in peoples' minds the amount of delay that would likely be necessary and hence chose a frankly absurd time, namely one day. I mean the principle of delaying if a deal was in the offing makes perfect sense but he was obviously scared of saying something like "a few months" because he worried that he would be named and shamed as a Remainer so hence took the frankly bizarre position of saying our leaving would only be delayed by a day. I mean what set of circumstances can you imagine that it would only be a day extra required to do a deal? Makes no sense whatsoever.
    I think you misunderstood him, but if you didn't then yes it is nonsense.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219
    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    You may quibble at the source of this article, but there are lots of uncomfortable truths in it for any sensible Tories still listening...

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1141265370998804481

    The welfare state has not been destroyed over the past nine years. We have an enormous welfare state, and the government spends the equivalent of 41% of national income.
    Last night’s televised BBC debate saw five privileged men in suits bellowing over each other using a weird vocabulary of sycophancy and hubris.

    I thought Javid was the son of a bus driver?
    Denunciations of "privilege" generally come from the privileged.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I really think the BBC needs to be held accountable here. It's happened far too often.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,828
    edited June 2019
    In fairness to the BBC staff it is a little confusing that there are higher standards for asking a question of the guests competing to be PM than it is to be one of the guests competing to be PM...

    Edit: In reference to Abdullah comments anyway.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591
    It's not as if this is Top Gear - they were invited onto a political programme. The chance they had political views or experience was an obvious point
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,069
    edited June 2019
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,477
    edited June 2019
    TOPPING said:

    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    Meanwhile of them all Hunt emerged for me as the most likely to succeed. His "no deal" seriously worried me but I think Rory ruled himself out (shame for my large green on him), as did Boris, while Gove's solipsistic crap will surely not wash and The Saj was a bit meh.

    That was dreadfully disappointing from Michael. Fatuous, cynical nonsense. I've gone off him.

    The way he can redeem himself in my eyes is if when he gets knocked out (or if he makes the Final) he lets his contempt for Johnson rip and tries to do him some real damage. That he is talking to Rory Stewart about a pact (if the rumour is true) offers some hope of this.

    Johnson wins this anyway - but let's have him crawling into Downing St with a few bullets in various parts of his anatomy*. That is the best outcome from here.

    * Metaphorically. I do not condone violence. Never have. Never will.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    **TRIGGER WARNING - NEGATIVE POST**

    Of all the mendacious crap that was spouted last night for me among the most egregious was Gove's "just a day or two, say 48 hours" to extend the leaving date if a deal is close.

    I mean I know the answer to the question what kind of idiot does he (they all) take us for but really. He actually said he believes it might take only an extra 24 hours to do a so far undoable deal.

    I don't understand why you think that is mendacious. have you misunderstood him? It's surely correct that if a deal is close, the EU27 would almost certainly rapidly grant an extension; it only needs the Council to agree, which can be done very quickly. He wasn't saying it would only take 24 hours to agree a new deal.
    He wanted to minimise in peoples' minds the amount of delay that would likely be necessary and hence chose a frankly absurd time, namely one day. I mean the principle of delaying if a deal was in the offing makes perfect sense but he was obviously scared of saying something like "a few months" because he worried that he would be named and shamed as a Remainer so hence took the frankly bizarre position of saying our leaving would only be delayed by a day. I mean what set of circumstances can you imagine that it would only be a day extra required to do a deal? Makes no sense whatsoever.
    I think you misunderstood him, but if you didn't then yes it is nonsense.
    "I will make sure we leave the EU in good order. If we're almost there on 31st of October, I agree with Jeremy; who could object to a further 24 or 48 hours to get it over the line? You sometimes have extra time in football."
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    TOPPING said:

    "I will make sure we leave the EU in good order. If we're almost there on 31st of October, I agree with Jeremy; who could object to a further 24 or 48 hours to get it over the line? You sometimes have extra time in football."

    OK, fair enough.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,030

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,883
    JackW said:

    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.

    Also BBC - Pope is Catholic.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444

    JackW said:

    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.

    Also BBC - Pope is Catholic.
    Also BBC - Bear shits in woods.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    I agree, I wonder what the intention was. Maybe a defined term-type deal?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Blue_rog said:

    I really think the BBC needs to be held accountable here. It's happened far too often.
    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Last night's fiasco might well make party leaders more averse to leadership debates at the next election. It was a complete waste of time.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591
    nichomar said:

    Blue_rog said:

    I really think the BBC needs to be held accountable here. It's happened far too often.
    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.
    Really, though? Have you thought that through?

    You'd be happy with ANYONE asking questions?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    GIN1138 said:

    Well I thought that shouty woman who claimed to have a husband with a property empire and a son working in the city came across more like a member of the socialist workers party FWIW... :D
    She was priceless.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    JackW said:

    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.

    Also BBC - Pope is Catholic.
    Also BBC - Bear shits in woods.
    Also BBC - ordinary member of the public is political activist.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    nichomar said:

    Blue_rog said:

    I really think the BBC needs to be held accountable here. It's happened far too often.
    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.
    I wouldn't agree to card holding Tories asking the questions either. The format was for 'ordinary' members of the public to ask questions. If they have a political agenda themselves it casts doubt on the validity of the question.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,915
    .
    Foxy said:


    In other important news I see Boris's car is yet to have the makeover!

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7152985/Inside-Boris-Johnsons-litter-strewn-Toyota-Previa.html

    A fucking Previa. What an indictment of his broad spectrum moral and intellectual failure.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,176
    nichomar said:

    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.

    Quite a bit, if the questioner is in fact an activist or even worse a staffer for a rival party trying to make a political point rather than ask a genuine question. At the very least they should declare their membership of another party (and the Beeb should have checked this).
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    Blue_rog said:

    I really think the BBC needs to be held accountable here. It's happened far too often.
    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.
    Really, though? Have you thought that through?

    You'd be happy with ANYONE asking questions?
    Provided the question was pre vetted and was representative of similar suggested ones then yes. You’d have to be prepared to mute them if they went off message.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006
    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well I thought that shouty woman who claimed to have a husband with a property empire and a son working in the city came across more like a member of the socialist workers party FWIW... :D
    She was priceless.
    Not being an expert but I'm pretty sure she was at least deaf and perhaps had some other condition.

    But as to the substance yes property developers is not a group of people who garner a tremendous amount of sympathy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006

    JackW said:

    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.

    Also BBC - Pope is Catholic.
    Also BBC - Bear shits in woods.
    Also BBC - ordinary member of the public is political activist.
    Still BBC - self-selecting audience member of political programme is political activist.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited June 2019
    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    You may quibble at the source of this article, but there are lots of uncomfortable truths in it for any sensible Tories still listening...

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1141265370998804481

    The welfare state has not been destroyed over the past nine years. We have an enormous welfare state, and the government spends the equivalent of 41% of national income.
    Last night’s televised BBC debate saw five privileged men in suits bellowing over each other using a weird vocabulary of sycophancy and hubris.

    I thought Javid was the son of a bus driver?
    The drafting suggests he was desperate to write, privileged white men and had to come up with second best
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 8,811

    nichomar said:

    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.

    Quite a bit, if the questioner is in fact an activist or even worse a staffer for a rival party trying to make a political point rather than ask a genuine question. At the very least they should declare their membership of another party (and the Beeb should have checked this).
    also even more so when the interviewer went back to the question asker, and they're able to say' none of them were good answers', which happened on a number of occasions.

    Wonder where they got the young woman with the climate change question now. Is she an activist?

    IE the one with the crazy notion we can go 'carbon neutral' in 6 years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    tlg86 said:
    That is shocking! Not that they knew but they should have declared it.
  • PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712

    nichomar said:

    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.

    Quite a bit, if the questioner is in fact an activist or even worse a staffer for a rival party trying to make a political point rather than ask a genuine question. At the very least they should declare their membership of another party (and the Beeb should have checked this).
    also even more so when the interviewer went back to the question asker, and they're able to say' none of them were good answers', which happened on a number of occasions.

    Wonder where they got the young woman with the climate change question now. Is she an activist?

    IE the one with the crazy notion we can go 'carbon neutral' in 6 years.
    And the idiot who said Hunt's answer was great, but Stewart hadn't answered the question (when he clearly had, just not with the answer the idiot wanted to hear)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,915
    Norm said:


    Stewart 4/10 Weirdo totally unsuited for PM role

    The pb.com tories longstanding infatuation with the jug eared geek is just mystifying. He needs to jump straight to the end of his political career and morph into a Portillo style national treasure. Perhaps he could open that fair trade hiking boot co-operative of which he has so often spoken.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,288
    eek said:



    We don’t need to be superstars. We just need to be better than our opponents.

    The Scons, SLDs and SLabbers are just making life too easy for us. Their problem is that over the decades recruitment has dried up. Must be all that negativity putting young people off.

    I don't think it's that - Given Social Media, 24 hour news and complainers have 24/7 access to you via social media who on earth wants to be politician...

    There are easier (and more profitable) ways to change the world nowadays.
    But if social media explains the drying up of talented recruits to the SCons, SLab and SLD over the past two decades, why hasn’t that also hit the SNP?

    SNP membership level has rocketed during the Social Media Age.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,124
    I see today we are getting more evidence of what the supporters of modern Corbyn led Labour party are like..
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006
    Dura_Ace said:

    Norm said:


    Stewart 4/10 Weirdo totally unsuited for PM role

    The pb.com tories longstanding infatuation with the jug eared geek is just mystifying. He needs to jump straight to the end of his political career and morph into a Portillo style national treasure. Perhaps he could open that fair trade hiking boot co-operative of which he has so often spoken.
    Um did you notice the other four blokes taking part? One of them will be your prime minister shortly. Who would you rather have?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,216
    Dura_Ace said:

    Norm said:


    Stewart 4/10 Weirdo totally unsuited for PM role

    The pb.com tories longstanding infatuation with the jug eared geek is just mystifying. He needs to jump straight to the end of his political career and morph into a Portillo style national treasure. Perhaps he could open that fair trade hiking boot co-operative of which he has so often spoken.
    Said from a [email protected] whose life is so empty that he has to endanger his life - and more impotently, that of others - by speeding.

    And who never learns his lesson. ;)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,493

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    Same button on keyboard? What sort of keyboard are you using? An American one? I agree with your point though. I find great amusement in unnecessary quotation marks.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Cookie said:

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    Same button on keyboard? What sort of keyboard are you using? An American one? I agree with your point though. I find great amusement in unnecessary quotation marks.
    No an English one. The ' button is located with @ as its shift-option two keys to the right of L.

    There is also an ` option to the left of 1 but that isn't the button used.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,134

    nichomar said:

    If the questions were limited to individuals holding conservative membership cards then it shouldn’t be on national tv, it was not billed as next Tory leader but next UK PM. The questions they asked are more important than who delivers them. What difference would it have made it Mr Patel from x asked the following or miss y from z.

    Quite a bit, if the questioner is in fact an activist or even worse a staffer for a rival party trying to make a political point rather than ask a genuine question. At the very least they should declare their membership of another party (and the Beeb should have checked this).
    also even more so when the interviewer went back to the question asker, and they're able to say' none of them were good answers', which happened on a number of occasions.

    Wonder where they got the young woman with the climate change question now. Is she an activist?

    IE the one with the crazy notion we can go 'carbon neutral' in 6 years.
    And the idiot who said Hunt's answer was great, but Stewart hadn't answered the question (when he clearly had, just not with the answer the idiot wanted to hear)
    Perhaps the US system of just having a moderator decide or choose what the questions are is better.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,493

    Cookie said:

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    Same button on keyboard? What sort of keyboard are you using? An American one? I agree with your point though. I find great amusement in unnecessary quotation marks.
    No an English one. The ' button is located with @ as its shift-option two keys to the right of L.

    There is also an ` option to the left of 1 but that isn't the button used.
    Oh, I see. I thought you were using some weirdy keyboard with ', and " on the same button, one being the shift of the other.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,883

    Cookie said:

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    Same button on keyboard? What sort of keyboard are you using? An American one? I agree with your point though. I find great amusement in unnecessary quotation marks.
    No an English one. The ' button is located with @ as its shift-option two keys to the right of L.

    There is also an ` option to the left of 1 but that isn't the button used.
    Not on an Apple UK keyboard...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    TOPPING said:

    JackW said:

    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.

    Also BBC - Pope is Catholic.
    Also BBC - Bear shits in woods.
    Also BBC - ordinary member of the public is political activist.
    Still BBC - self-selecting audience member of political programme is political activist.
    Self-selecting? So they just rocked up and sat down? They weren't selected to take part from a greater pool of applicants?

    No harm in having activists from any party involved but if its known they to be then they should be declared as such.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,886
    Scott_P said:
    That should be a boost for Stewart.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,006

    TOPPING said:

    JackW said:

    BBC - Raab endorses Boris.

    Also BBC - Pope is Catholic.
    Also BBC - Bear shits in woods.
    Also BBC - ordinary member of the public is political activist.
    Still BBC - self-selecting audience member of political programme is political activist.
    Self-selecting? So they just rocked up and sat down? They weren't selected to take part from a greater pool of applicants?

    No harm in having activists from any party involved but if its known they to be then they should be declared as such.
    They had to apply. That is self-selecting.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    Same button on keyboard? What sort of keyboard are you using? An American one? I agree with your point though. I find great amusement in unnecessary quotation marks.
    No an English one. The ' button is located with @ as its shift-option two keys to the right of L.

    There is also an ` option to the left of 1 but that isn't the button used.
    Oh, I see. I thought you were using some weirdy keyboard with ', and " on the same button, one being the shift of the other.
    No the " symbol is above 2 but that wasn't the symbol discussed. That's why I called it an apostrope is subconsciously that's what I use that key for, it I want a quotation I normally use " and not '.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,453
    edited June 2019
    Just going back to the point about an explicit condition of the last extension being that there would be no renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement.

    Of course you can say it's all politics and that can change. But with regard to the commitments now being made about dates - surely as the European Council has formally stated this, it can be reversed only by a further decision of the Council?

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,477
    Regarding Stewart saying he's talking to Gove, here's what I think is happening -

    Stewart has sussed that Raab's group are thinking of voting Javid to knock Stewart out. He also knows that Raab's group ultimately want Johnson and therefore, like Johnson, want Johnson vs Hunt in the Final. So he plants the fear that if he is knocked out he will switch to Gove and thus help Gove make the Final rather than Hunt. Raab's group swallow this and therefore do NOT vote Javid and therefore Javid gets knocked out. Stewart makes the last 4 and now picks up Javid (notice how they hugged after the debate?). It's enough to overtake Gove, who is knocked out, and Stewart makes the last 3. Stewart now appeals to all of those MPs who want Johnson to face an uncomfortable Final. There are lots of them, Stewart overtakes Hunt. He makes the Final. It's him against Johnson.

    He loses big style.

    Was it worth it? - He clearly thinks so.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Dadge said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why are 'school' and 'Trust' in apostrophes?

    Reads really weird. Makes it read like its not really a school but is getting called one.
    Those aren't apostrophes. You're as clueless about punctuation as he is.
    OK Mr Pedant, single quotation marks. Same button on keyboard.

    It wasn't a political point. To me it reads really weird, is it correct grammar to use quotation marks there?
    Same button on keyboard? What sort of keyboard are you using? An American one? I agree with your point though. I find great amusement in unnecessary quotation marks.
    No an English one. The ' button is located with @ as its shift-option two keys to the right of L.

    There is also an ` option to the left of 1 but that isn't the button used.
    Oh, I see. I thought you were using some weirdy keyboard with ', and " on the same button, one being the shift of the other.
    No the " symbol is above 2 but that wasn't the symbol discussed. That's why I called it an apostrope is subconsciously that's what I use that key for, it I want a quotation I normally use " and not '.
    That's pretty old hat. It's convention nowadays to use a single quotation mark unless you are quoting within a quote.

    However, if you're going to take someone to task over punctuation and grammar it's good to make sure your own house is in order. Just saying ;)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,609
    Cyclefree said:
    The Boris magic is becoming a little thin.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cyclefree said:

    That should be a boost for Stewart.

    If the party want someone who can win an election, yes.

    if they want a bonehead Brexiteer, not so much
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,915
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Norm said:


    Stewart 4/10 Weirdo totally unsuited for PM role

    The pb.com tories longstanding infatuation with the jug eared geek is just mystifying. He needs to jump straight to the end of his political career and morph into a Portillo style national treasure. Perhaps he could open that fair trade hiking boot co-operative of which he has so often spoken.
    Um did you notice the other four blokes taking part? One of them will be your prime minister shortly. Who would you rather have?
    Hunt disqualifies himself by his resemblance to Roland Rat and the prominent display of the Butcher's Apron on the lapel. Boris is unsuitable by dint of driving a Previa. So, in a forced choice, it would have to be THE SAJ. I'm pretty sure I've seen him driving a G11 7 Series.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Cyclefree said:
    That’s quite a surprise . Perhaps some in here expected too much from Stewart.I think last nights forum didn’t suit him but clearly the public were a lot more positive about him than many in these types of forums .
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,453
    Cyclefree said:
    Interesting how different that is to the reactions here - not least as far as Javid is concerned.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988
    TGOHF said:
    This charade has been going on with Question Time for far too long, you can tell from the cheers and boos that they are no longer an audience of the public but political activists with a set script.

    The BBC should be very careful of fusing politics and entertainment together, one of the key reasons behind a public tv station is surely for giving an educational and informative view of politics rather than creating theatre and drama to drive up ad revenue.
This discussion has been closed.