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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    Ishmael_Z said:

    malcolmg said:

    I am starting to think Gove winning the leadership is a smart bet.

    If he gets to the final 2 there must surely be a chance of Boris self-destructing. Although many consider his mannerisms odd Gove does have a knack of speaking persuasively and convincingly.

    As someone said on the thread last night his ‘confession’ must mean he at least thinks he’s got a chance, to be “clearing decks” early on.

    Note: in many ways Boris is the British Trump and many commentators thought he would implode during the primaries, so it’s far from guaranteed, but it must at least be considered.

    Gove is certainly our Hilary, sneaky lying conniving no user.
    Heavy user, actually.
    Depends on the "line" you take?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    You only just noticed?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    It's been a holiday in Russia (Victory Day) for decades.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Good morning. Recent endorsements: Owen Paterson and Michael Fallon for Boris Johnson.

    Boris should have been Conservative leader after the referendum in 2016.
    What Michael Gove did at the very last moment precludes him from any sense of trust.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_P said:
    Jealous that you could not make in Scotland Scott, just look wistfully wishing you were there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Anyway, I must be off. Electricity permitting, the pre-qualifying tosh will be up after third practice, which I think ends at either 5 or 6pm.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Hope no one has their hard earned money in Neil Woodford's fund.
    Does not look good, that they have suspended been able to take your money out.

    I have some money in it but not enough to be a big issue , only about £10K
    Could be a bigger issue if other similar funds also have liquidity issues. I see Hargreaves are starting to fret about some of their multi funds (ones that invest in other funds like Woodfords).
    Yes some of them are a bit incestuous. I have a big spread of different types so hopefully will not become a big issue.
    Sounds like Woodford has exposed a problem with these funds investing in stuff that is not quick and easy to liquidate.

    Regulation will be tightened I suspect.
    Do any of these “managed” funds regularly beat a major Western index tracker over a decade or more, when their extortionate fees are taken out?
    Vanishingly few. The whole fund management industry is a scam. A monkey with a pin and the FT could do better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    AndyJS said:

    "Corbyn to drop social mobility as Labour goal in favour of opportunity for all
    Party leader says idea has failed and calls instead for social justice commission"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/08/jeremy-corbyn-to-drop-social-mobility-as-labour-goal

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Why do Lannisters have big beds?

    They put two twins together to make a king.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Yorkcity said:

    AndyJS said:

    Good morning. Recent endorsements: Owen Paterson and Michael Fallon for Boris Johnson.

    Boris should have been Conservative leader after the referendum in 2016.
    What Michael Gove did at the very last moment precludes him from any sense of trust.
    Ho ho. Trust and Tory are alien concepts.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    Desperate for something successful, xenophobia helps.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    It's been a holiday in Russia (Victory Day) for decades.
    Yes, let’s copy Russia. A beacon to the world.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    You only just noticed?
    They are desperate to ram it down Scotland's throat as well, always manage to book some bollox when any major Scottish event is on.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    Has Dominic Raab'ed you up the wrong way? :lol:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited June 2019

    Sandpit said:

    Indeed, Thatcher was the beginning of the end. She was not a conservative, she was a revolutionary.

    There are many examples of her animosity towards conservatism, but funnily enough one of her very late introductions sticks in my mind: the National Lottery. She, quite rightly, resisted the suggestion for a decade, but caved in in the end. The Big State, week in week out fleeces the absolute poorest people in society. It is a National Disgrace and a National Shame. Of course charlatan Blair loved it too.

    A true conservative would abolish the National Lottery, ban the gambling industry from advertising, and protect the vulnerable from one of society’s most persistent evils.

    I don't think that's quite right. The National Lottery was introduced by John Major's government after a manifesto commitment in 1992.

    http://www.conservativemanifesto.com/1992/1992-conservative-manifesto.shtml
    Correct, the National Lottery was John Major’s achievement, not Thatcher’s. Launched in 1994.
    I was quite young then but I do remember the first draw and how excited everyone was about having a ticket. Took a while for reality to hit that the odds were minuscule...
    Indeed. Not sure what the odds are now, but it used to be 13.4m to one on six numbers from 49, with 50% of total stakes returned, 30% to the good causes, 10% in tax to the Treasury and 10% to the operator.

    As a form of gambling it’s much worse odds than most others, but seeing someone on TV every week with a million-pound cheque, and money going to things like the Olympics and our athletes helps somewhat with their marketing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:


    I agree about Boris - don't know about Gove. I know you won't agree but Ruth's achievement in leading the Tories to second place in Scotland is truly one of the brightest features of the party's fortunes in decades.

    Not at all it was sheer luck. Lib Dems vanquished and Labour destroying themselves gave them a temporary boost. Her single policy , "No referendum" is a busted flush now and she is invisible and circling the drain.

    PS: they are also rans in Scotland , miles and miles behind and no hope of ever being in charge, hardly success.
    At some point people will get tired of the SNP - it's a pretty iron law of politics. Who do you expect to be the beneficiaries? (Genuine question.)
    At present there is little sign that anyone is tiring of the SNP, the opposition are really dire. My guess if they did it would be to a new independence party fed up waiting for the referendum.
    I cannot imagine the Tories getting beyond a small fixed base and there is no sign that Labour can ever recover , they are just so bad. Only hope for Labour and Tories is to become a Scottish party rather than just message boys for London. Lib Dems are also rans as well. Why Labour did not support independence I will never know, they would have cleaned up afterwards but preferred to destroy themselves instead.
    For me nothing will change till after independence and then the SNP will split.

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    malcolmg said:

    At some point people will get tired of the SNP - it's a pretty iron law of politics. Who do you expect to be the beneficiaries? (Genuine question.)

    At present there is little sign that anyone is tiring of the SNP, the opposition are really dire. My guess if they did it would be to a new independence party fed up waiting for the referendum.
    I cannot imagine the Tories getting beyond a small fixed base and there is no sign that Labour can ever recover , they are just so bad. Only hope for Labour and Tories is to become a Scottish party rather than just message boys for London. Lib Dems are also rans as well. Why Labour did not support independence I will never know, they would have cleaned up afterwards but preferred to destroy themselves instead.
    For me nothing will change till after independence and then the SNP will split.
    Exactly my intention. As soon as we achieve independence I’m out the door. The SNP is simply a tool, a wedge, for regaining national sovereignty. Once that’s done I’ll be chucking out the tool and helping to build a new centre-right force in the country.

    Up until then it is SNP all the way for me and a growing section of Scottish society.

    In regard to Nick Palmer ex MPs question: Lib Dems and Greens. SCons and SLab are spent forces, unless and until one of them breaks off with their London masters. Which ain’t gonna happen.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    “John Major is often credited with bringing in the National Lottery, but it was Sir Ivan Lawrence who kickstarted the ball-dropping enterprise.
    He explained the background to his 1991 Private Member's Bill and why Margaret Thatcher was far from keen on the enterprise.”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-15027222/national-lottery-sir-ivan-lawrence-on-margaret-thatcher-s-doubts

    Not ready to acknowledge the fact you claimed Thatcher introduced it was completely wrong?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Tabman said:

    I'm holding out for a Tory contender who admits to having done Ketamine.

    In a brothel.

    I'm sure SeanT would be able to suggest someone that fits the bill. Such a shame he's no longer around.
    That's very sad to hear
    He’s still lurking just too busy to post
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:


    I agree about Boris - don't know about Gove. I know you won't agree but Ruth's achievement in leading the Tories to second place in Scotland is truly one of the brightest features of the party's fortunes in decades.

    Not at all it was sheer luck. Lib Dems vanquished and Labour destroying themselves gave them a temporary boost. Her single policy , "No referendum" is a busted flush now and she is invisible and circling the drain.

    PS: they are also rans in Scotland , miles and miles behind and no hope of ever being in charge, hardly success.
    At some point people will get tired of the SNP - it's a pretty iron law of politics. Who do you expect to be the beneficiaries? (Genuine question.)
    At present there is little sign that anyone is tiring of the SNP, the opposition are really dire. My guess if they did it would be to a new independence party fed up waiting for the referendum.
    I cannot imagine the Tories getting beyond a small fixed base and there is no sign that Labour can ever recover , they are just so bad. Only hope for Labour and Tories is to become a Scottish party rather than just message boys for London. Lib Dems are also rans as well. Why Labour did not support independence I will never know, they would have cleaned up afterwards but preferred to destroy themselves instead.
    For me nothing will change till after independence and then the SNP will split.
    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    That is because they are really really stupid.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    I’ve been pointing this out for years, but I’m afraid that PB Tories always know best.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    edited June 2019
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:


    I agree about Boris - don't know about Gove. I know you won't agree but Ruth's achievement in leading the Tories to second place in Scotland is truly one of the brightest features of the party's fortunes in decades.

    Not at all it was sheer luck. Lib Dems vanquished and Labour destroying themselves gave them a temporary boost. Her single policy , "No referendum" is a busted flush now and she is invisible and circling the drain.

    PS: they are also rans in Scotland , miles and miles behind and no hope of ever being in charge, hardly success.
    At some point people will get tired of the SNP - it's a pretty iron law of politics. Who do you expect to be the beneficiaries? (Genuine question.)
    At present there is little sign that anyone is tiring of the SNP, the opposition are really dire. My guess if they did it would be to a new independence party fed up waiting for the referendum.
    I cannot imagine the Tories getting beyond a small fixed base and there is no sign that Labour can ever recover , they are just so bad. Only hope for Labour and Tories is to become a Scottish party rather than just message boys for London. Lib Dems are also rans as well. Why Labour did not support independence I will never know, they would have cleaned up afterwards but preferred to destroy themselves instead.
    For me nothing will change till after independence and then the SNP will split.
    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    As I said hard to understand Labour thinking , they would most likely be running Scotland now if they had had anyone with enough brain cells to work out that independence would be great for them. Instead tribal hatred of the SNP has led them to destroy themselves.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Goodwin in Telegraph:

    "One of the peculiarities of Britain is that once you step outside of London and the university towns this remains an instinctively conservative nation. Yet at the same time it has a Conservative Party that is afraid of being conservative."

    "Yet winning back these voters would not be hard. It requires a Conservative Party to do what it says on the tin"

    The mistake Freedland made is that Conservative doesn’t mean status quo - it is value driven. Sometimes you must reform to preserve.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    edited June 2019

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    It's been a holiday in Russia (Victory Day) for decades.
    Yes, let’s copy Russia. A beacon to the world.
    In Italy, it's 25th April
    In Denmark it's 4th May
    Netherlands 5th May
    France, Czechia, Norway, Poland, Slovakia 8th May
    Serbia and Ukraine 9th May (like Russia)

    I believe only for next year (VE 75) that the UK May Day bank holiday is to be moved to the 8th.
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 499
    edited June 2019
    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    Firstly, letting Scotland become independent to destroy the SNP is like curing a headache by decapitating yourself. Secondly, history tends to show us that parties that successfully win independence hang round for a long time. Witness India (INC in government for 49 years), South Africa (ANC wins more than 55% of the vote in every election since 1994), Ireland (Fianna Fail largest party in every election between 1932 and 2007).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    edited June 2019

    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    I’ve been pointing this out for years, but I’m afraid that PB Tories always know best.

    Scottish independence would also be great news for the broad forces of the right and centre right (Tories, DUP and I guess now Brexit Party) in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
    Even if you add the Lib Dems to that the high point (And it does look like a high point) for parties who might ever consider caucusing in a centre-right Gov't was 17/59 seats at the last GE.
    In most parliaments you're looking at least at a solid 45/59 seats (& probably more) that'll never caucus with the Tories or Farage's latest incarnation.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Corbyn to drop social mobility as Labour goal in favour of opportunity for all
    Party leader says idea has failed and calls instead for social justice commission"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/08/jeremy-corbyn-to-drop-social-mobility-as-labour-goal

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.
    Exactly - drag everyone bar the party faithful into poverty.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    Firstly, letting Scotland become independent to destroy the SNP is like curing a headache by decapitaing yourself. Secondly, history tends to show us that parties that successfully win independence hang round for a long time. Witness India (INC in government for 49 years), South Africa (ANC wins more than 55% of the vote in every election since 1994), Ireland (Fianna Fail largest party in every election between 1932 and 2007).
    Not for the question asked, the Tories and Labour will never amount to anything whilst Scotland is in the union and they are London regional sub offices. The direction is obvious and it is only a matter of when independence comes not if it will come. Better to be leading the charge than being trampled at the back.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Corbyn to drop social mobility as Labour goal in favour of opportunity for all
    Party leader says idea has failed and calls instead for social justice commission"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/08/jeremy-corbyn-to-drop-social-mobility-as-labour-goal

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.
    As far as one can understand, there’s a determination to ensure average = deemed success. And so the thick shall inherit the earth.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    I’ve been pointing this out for years, but I’m afraid that PB Tories always know best.

    Scottish independence would also be great news for the broad forces of the right and centre right (Tories, DUP and I guess now Brexit Party) in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
    Even if you add the Lib Dems to that the high point (And it does look like a high point) for parties who might ever consider caucusing in a centre-right Gov't was 17/59 seats at the last GE.
    In most parliaments you're looking at least at a solid 45/59 seats (& probably more) that'll never caucus with the Tories or Farage's latest incarnation.
    Would MV3 have passed without Scottish MPs voting?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    edited June 2019
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    I’ve been pointing this out for years, but I’m afraid that PB Tories always know best.

    Scottish independence would also be great news for the broad forces of the right and centre right (Tories, DUP and I guess now Brexit Party) in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
    Even if you add the Lib Dems to that the high point (And it does look like a high point) for parties who might ever consider caucusing in a centre-right Gov't was 17/59 seats at the last GE.
    In most parliaments you're looking at least at a solid 45/59 seats (& probably more) that'll never caucus with the Tories or Farage's latest incarnation.
    Would MV3 have passed without Scottish MPs voting?
    Noes 344
    Less SNP 34 less 7 Lab Less 4 Lib Dem

    Ayes 286
    Less 13 Tories

    So 299 - 273 I think a defeat of 26.

    Ken Clarke's Custom Union would have passed though in the indicative votes.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    Leadership contest alert !

    https://www.facebook.com/ScotLibDems/ Hustings in Edinburgh going on now.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Charles said:

    He’s still lurking just too busy to post

    Well I'm still posting because I'm too busy to lurk.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Floater said:

    Exactly - drag everyone bar the party faithful into poverty.

    They will lose my vote if they put that in the manifesto!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    matt said:

    As far as one can understand, there’s a determination to ensure average = deemed success. And so the thick shall inherit the earth.

    But how far DOES one understand?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    These 75th year commemorations will probably be the last ever of any major scale. Those remaining veterans are all in their 90s and none will be around for the centenary.

    No harm in paying tribute to our grandparents and great grandparents for the sacrifices they made one last time.

    The May day bank holiday is quite the most pointless bank holiday of the year by far in terms of timing (often a week or so after easter and 3 weeks before another) with usually bad weather but without the extra daylight of the late May version. So at least next year it will have some significance!
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I watched her on TV a few weeks ago and came to the conclusion she is a Brexit ideologue coupled with not being very intellegent. Given her inability to articulate any form of viable message, I wonder how on earth she got selected!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,306
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Split? After independence the SNP will shatter. It will be a total mess.

    It's amazing that people who seem dedicated to destroying the SNP haven't worked out the best approach would be for Scotland to become independent.

    I’ve been pointing this out for years, but I’m afraid that PB Tories always know best.

    Scottish independence would also be great news for the broad forces of the right and centre right (Tories, DUP and I guess now Brexit Party) in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
    Even if you add the Lib Dems to that the high point (And it does look like a high point) for parties who might ever consider caucusing in a centre-right Gov't was 17/59 seats at the last GE.
    In most parliaments you're looking at least at a solid 45/59 seats (& probably more) that'll never caucus with the Tories or Farage's latest incarnation.
    The break up of the UK would create entirely new political dynamics, so I don't think you can simply look at current voting patterns and imagine they would reflect the future reality if we were separate nations.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,389
    brendan16 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    These 75th year commemorations will probably be the last ever of any major scale. Those remaining veterans are all in their 90s and none will be around for the centenary.

    No harm in paying tribute to our grandparents and great grandparents for the sacrifices they made one last time.

    The May day bank holiday is quite the most pointless bank holiday of the year by far in terms of timing (often a week or so after easter and 3 weeks before another) with usually bad weather but without the extra daylight of the late May version. So at least next year it will have some significance!
    Seems perfectly reasonable use of the May bank holiday to me.

    I don't agree with all this guff about we are spending too much time thinking about the War. Seems to me far too many people in this country have forgotten what it was we were fighting against when you see photos of yobs doing the Hitler salute.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019

    Has Dominic Raab'ed you up the wrong way? :lol:
    We will find out next week if he is dominating the pack or just Dom the Bomb.

    I see his website adds '2019' at the end - is he expecting www.dominicraab2020.com and www.dominicraab2021.com as well.

    For a fairer Britain - run by fair haired people!
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,060
    AndyJS said:

    On thread - am I the only one here wot hasn't watched GoT?

    I am vaguely aware that Captain Phasma and Qi'ra from the new Star Wars "films" are also in GoT :)

    I haven't. I usually watch TV shows about 20 years after they were famous, which is why I watched the original run of Twin Peaks recently.
    Twin peaks is a good example of how the US gets (at least used to get) TV series wrong. The approach was to commission programmes open ended and continue as long as the show remains popular. In the UK a short series would be written and commissioned. If it was popluar then another short series would be supported. The classic examples are of course Fawlty Towers and Black Adder.

    Twin Peaks was superb telly for the first 10 or so episodes. Once Laura Palmer's killer was revealed, the viewing figures dropped. The producers pulled the plug and the last two episodes are complete dross. I did watch the entire series again about 10 years ago and was surprised how dated it looked, as I thought the setting woud be fairly timeless.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited June 2019
    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,469

    I watched her on TV a few weeks ago and came to the conclusion she is a Brexit ideologue coupled with not being very intellegent. Given her inability to articulate any form of viable message, I wonder how on earth she got selected!
    She was specifically chosen to beat Ed Balls.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    AndyJS said:

    "Corbyn to drop social mobility as Labour goal in favour of opportunity for all
    Party leader says idea has failed and calls instead for social justice commission"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/08/jeremy-corbyn-to-drop-social-mobility-as-labour-goal

    That could be quite an interesting development.

    Social mobility is not really an egalitarian concept and so I'm not surprised that Corbyn's Labour would be less than enthusiastic about it being a top priority.

    Difficult to frame a realistic alternative though. It would have to involve a serious attack on birth privilege and that can run into choppy waters. We are quite wedded to birth privilege in this country, both those that have it and those that don't.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    HYUFD said:

    Boris now getting support from all wings of the party and almost as many former Remain MPs backing him as former Leave MPs, Chloe Smith from the Cameroon former Remainer wing and Owen Paterson from the No Deal, hard Brexit wing, as well as former May ally and Defence Secretary Michael Fallon.

    Hancock and Hunt now the clear candidates of the Remain wing and Raab the clear candidate of the Leave wing of the party based on the percentage of their MP support
    I would have thought that Johnson's backing from some quarters must be of grave concern to the ERG/No dealers. What is he saying in private to get that sort of backing?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    kinabalu said:

    matt said:

    As far as one can understand, there’s a determination to ensure average = deemed success. And so the thick shall inherit the earth.

    But how far DOES one understand?
    That’s for you to conclude. Given it will be couched in the now-usual SWP-speak, one can only draw inferences from past behaviors.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.

    Everyone wants the pie to get bigger. That is motherhood and apple pie - which is hopefully getting bigger. :smile:

    I'm not an ideologue. Unless that's your term for people who have ideas that you disagree with.

    I would describe myself as a hard left social democrat.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    brendan16 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think we're becoming over-obsessed with the second world war. Not healthy.
    These 75th year commemorations will probably be the last ever of any major scale. Those remaining veterans are all in their 90s and none will be around for the centenary.

    No harm in paying tribute to our grandparents and great grandparents for the sacrifices they made one last time.

    The May day bank holiday is quite the most pointless bank holiday of the year by far in terms of timing (often a week or so after easter and 3 weeks before another) with usually bad weather but without the extra daylight of the late May version. So at least next year it will have some significance!
    Seems perfectly reasonable use of the May bank holiday to me.

    I don't agree with all this guff about we are spending too much time thinking about the War. Seems to me far too many people in this country have forgotten what it was we were fighting against when you see photos of yobs doing the Hitler salute.
    Completely agreed.

    When I was young, there were very few surviving WWI veterans but lots of WWII veterans. Time has moved on and now there fewer veterans left ... but rarely has it seemed more important to learn from them.

    Anyone who thinks a Hitler salute is appropriate is not a patriot.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,389
    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    I said months ago that MPs would find it near impossible to not put Boris through to membership given the demand for him.

    We will see in next few days.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    GROW THE PIE!

    Next Tory GE slogan sorted, landslide maj follows..
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,389
    Added a little to my Gove pile earlier this afternoon. I think 14 is too high given he may well make last two.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    GROW THE PIE!

    Next Tory GE slogan sorted, landslide maj follows..
    Believe in the pie!
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    GROW THE PIE!

    Next Tory GE slogan sorted, landslide maj follows..
    Believe in the pie!
    Who ate all the pies - the Tories!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,340
    edited June 2019
    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:

    On thread - am I the only one here wot hasn't watched GoT?

    I am vaguely aware that Captain Phasma and Qi'ra from the new Star Wars "films" are also in GoT :)

    I haven't. I usually watch TV shows about 20 years after they were famous, which is why I watched the original run of Twin Peaks recently.
    Twin peaks is a good example of how the US gets (at least used to get) TV series wrong. The approach was to commission programmes open ended and continue as long as the show remains popular. In the UK a short series would be written and commissioned. If it was popluar then another short series would be supported. The classic examples are of course Fawlty Towers and Black Adder.

    Twin Peaks was superb telly for the first 10 or so episodes. Once Laura Palmer's killer was revealed, the viewing figures dropped. The producers pulled the plug and the last two episodes are complete dross. I did watch the entire series again about 10 years ago and was surprised how dated it looked, as I thought the setting woud be fairly timeless.


    The original idea was to make the show about the town and its population. The murder was the hook to get Agent Cooper, an eccentric outsider, in to the place. The killing was to quietly fall into the background.
    The studio insisted it be solved. They ruined it as a concept, by making it a murder mystery. The original series was written to eliminate all the possible suspects. Therefore the second series made no sense, by making it some kind of owl spirit.
    As for dated. Well yes. It was so influential we've seen all kinds of stuff since which borrowed from it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,306
    Scott_P said:
    If they had any foresight they would use this as a reason to become a separate party and change to a neutral position on the union.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    matt said:

    That’s for you to conclude. Given it will be couched in the now-usual SWP-speak, one can only draw inferences from past behaviors.

    You might well be right but I hope not. I'm getting tired of words words words. I will be looking for what POLICIES are proposed by Labour to reduce inequality. Significantly reduce it, I mean, not tinkering.

    And if I don't see some concrete proposals that frighten the horses in certain quarters I will conclude (sadly but firmly) that the much vaunted Corbyn & McDonnell et al are all mouth and no trousers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    dixiedean said:

    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:

    On thread - am I the only one here wot hasn't watched GoT?

    I am vaguely aware that Captain Phasma and Qi'ra from the new Star Wars "films" are also in GoT :)

    I haven't. I usually watch TV shows about 20 years after they were famous, which is why I watched the original run of Twin Peaks recently.
    Twin peaks is a good example of how the US gets (at least used to get) TV series wrong. The approach was to commission programmes open ended and continue as long as the show remains popular. In the UK a short series would be written and commissioned. If it was popluar then another short series would be supported. The classic examples are of course Fawlty Towers and Black Adder.

    Twin Peaks was superb telly for the first 10 or so episodes. Once Laura Palmer's killer was revealed, the viewing figures dropped. The producers pulled the plug and the last two episodes are complete dross. I did watch the entire series again about 10 years ago and was surprised how dated it looked, as I thought the setting woud be fairly timeless.


    The original idea was to make the show about the town and its population. The murder was the hook to get Agent Cooper, an eccentric outsider, in to the place. The killing was to quietly fall into the background.
    The studio insisted it be solved. They ruined it as a concept, by making it a murder mystery. The original series was written to eliminate all the possible suspects. Therefore the second series made no sense, by making it some kind of owl spirit.
    As for dated. Well yes. It was so influential we've seen all kinds of stuff since which borrowed from it.
    The OST remains excellent.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    To be fair, there's not a whole lot the government can do to make the economy grow faster - although really dumb policies can make it grow a lot slower, or not at all. Whereas there is a lot the government can do about the distribution of income and opportunity. I would not write off Labour's ideas on this without taking a good look at them first. We have real problems in this country and more of the same stale trickle down policies won't fix them.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    And here I thought it was supposed to be the left that put their faith in magic money trees...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    Yes, Baker gaining ground on a straight to WTO terms ticket
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    matt said:

    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.

    As I said to Philip, bigger pie has to be a policy goal. No dispute about that.

    However, if we can grow the economy by liberating the talents of the many millions of people who at present are held back by birth circumstances, then that is so much better IMO than doing it any other way.

    Not saying it will be easy - but I would welcome a serious attempt.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    Scott_P said:
    If they had any foresight they would use this as a reason to become a separate party and change to a neutral position on the union.
    In which case they would be in danger of extinction failing to win back Nationalists from the SNP while losing Unionists to the Tories and LDs
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited June 2019
    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris now getting support from all wings of the party and almost as many former Remain MPs backing him as former Leave MPs, Chloe Smith from the Cameroon former Remainer wing and Owen Paterson from the No Deal, hard Brexit wing, as well as former May ally and Defence Secretary Michael Fallon.

    Hancock and Hunt now the clear candidates of the Remain wing and Raab the clear candidate of the Leave wing of the party based on the percentage of their MP support
    I would have thought that Johnson's backing from some quarters must be of grave concern to the ERG/No dealers. What is he saying in private to get that sort of backing?
    In some ways the rise of Raab and Baker as the firm No Deal candidates helps Boris to win over moderates having already shored up his Brexiteer base
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,306
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    If they had any foresight they would use this as a reason to become a separate party and change to a neutral position on the union.
    In which case they would be in danger of extinction failing to win back Nationalists from the SNP while losing Unionists to the Tories and LDs
    Politics is not all black and white.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,340

    Added a little to my Gove pile earlier this afternoon. I think 14 is too high given he may well make last two.

    You want to listen to the callers on Any Answers...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,469
    kinabalu said:

    matt said:

    That’s for you to conclude. Given it will be couched in the now-usual SWP-speak, one can only draw inferences from past behaviors.

    You might well be right but I hope not. I'm getting tired of words words words. I will be looking for what POLICIES are proposed by Labour to reduce inequality. Significantly reduce it, I mean, not tinkering.

    And if I don't see some concrete proposals that frighten the horses in certain quarters I will conclude (sadly but firmly) that the much vaunted Corbyn & McDonnell et al are all mouth and no trousers.
    That also depends by how you describe 'inequality'.

    In London it would be the difference between the extreme rich and the poor.

    In much of the country it would be the difference between property owners and renters.

    Then there is the inequality in employment and educational opportunities between deprived areas and average areas.

    Not forgetting generational inequality.

    And as inequality takes different forms then policies to reduce it will also need to be different.

    So if a Labour government focuses on 'London type inequality' it much have no effect in reducing other forms of inequality and may instead worsen them.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    GROW THE PIE!

    Next Tory GE slogan sorted, landslide maj follows..
    Believe in the pie!
    "The meat in the sausage has got to be Conservative."
    - Boris interview with Jeremy Paxman, 7 May 2010
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853
    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    And with 4-5 MPs support, 1.3% of the members first choice max lies Leadsom with a 10% chance according to Betfair...
    I've only ever had more money opposing Marine Le Pen in the French 2nd round.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,577
    Q. What's Jeremy Corbyn's favourite chocolate box?

    A. Inequality Street!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Made it back without having to leave anyone behind. Win.

    I was thinking about the road not taken in this race, even though he strikes me as an unserious candidate for PM, one does wonder what private pike's path would have been had he resigned on principle wrt the Huawei decision. I think it would have marked him out as someone to take seriously, which he clearly isn't and it may even have brought May down as more of the Cabinet would have rebelled on that idiotic decision (one which the next leader is sure to overturn).

    He would definitely be in the running now and probay be competing with Raab for biggest idiot in the contest.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    "During the 2017 election campaign his local campaign leaflet went viral in the UK due to its slogan 'unwanted, unnecessary, opportunistic' which was supposed to be about the snap election called by Theresa May, but appeared to be referring to Godsiff himself." - Wikipedia
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    And here I thought it was supposed to be the left that put their faith in magic money trees...
    Economic growth is magic?

    UK GDP per capita $39,720
    Venezuela GDP per capita $15,692
    Australia GDP per capita $53,800

    No magic.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,736
    edited June 2019

    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    GROW THE PIE!

    Next Tory GE slogan sorted, landslide maj follows..
    Believe in the pie!
    "The meat in the sausage has got to be Conservative."
    - Boris interview with Jeremy Paxman, 7 May 2010
    Believe in the meat in Boris's sausage!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    matt said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.
    To answer this question properly there needs to be a shared understanding of rich.

    If rich is doctors, senior managers, IT professionals, head teachers earning £80k-200k I would agree with those saying we should not actively make them poorer (whether through redistribution or no-deal!!).

    If rich is FTSE 100 directors, top flight footballers, businesspeople who buy companies to make them bankrupt and take the assets, foreign oligarchs with dubious sources of wealth I think we definitely should be seeking to make them poorer and pay a greater share, as in each case the market is not efficient or fair in awarding them their share of the pie.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    England running away with it in the cricket, with a massive 386-6 from their 50 overs.

    4% return available on Betfair if you can’t see the Banglas making those runs, much better than leaving it in the bank for the afternoon.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Look at the result in his seat in 2010. He knows which side his bread is buttered on.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    And with 4-5 MPs support, 1.3% of the members first choice max lies Leadsom with a 10% chance according to Betfair...
    I've only ever had more money opposing Marine Le Pen in the French 2nd round.
    can you imagine the mayhem if there are 70 undeclared Leadsom backers, one for each hour between now and Monday?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,801

    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    And with 4-5 MPs support, 1.3% of the members first choice max lies Leadsom with a 10% chance according to Betfair...
    I've only ever had more money opposing Marine Le Pen in the French 2nd round.
    can you imagine the mayhem if there are 70 undeclared Leadsom backers, one for each hour between now and Monday?
    How many mothers have declared thus far?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I have been reflecting on this week's emotional ceremonies commemorating the 75th D Day anniversary. Older contributors may wish to correct me, but I do not recall such ceremonies being held back in 1964 , 1969 - or indeed 1974 - to honour the sacrifices made at the time of the 20th , 25th or 30th anniversaries. If so, I fail to understand why that did not happen - particularly as many leading participants such as Eisenhower and,Montgomery -to name but two - were still alive and able to share their memories. Unless I am mistaken, it was not until 1984 - and the 40th anniversary - that we saw ceremonies on such a scale.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Additionally, I've decided I'm going to give Vilnius a 4.5/5 on our rating system. It has the Euro, it's got a direct flight to City airport, it's safe, it's cheap, it's got cheap rents, the regulations aren't gold plated by the government and I think that people will be ok to move here for months at a time.

    The only downside is that there is no direct flight to Tokyo, but hopefully if we can convince our other peers to follow us one will spring up.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,853

    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    And with 4-5 MPs support, 1.3% of the members first choice max lies Leadsom with a 10% chance according to Betfair...
    I've only ever had more money opposing Marine Le Pen in the French 2nd round.
    can you imagine the mayhem if there are 70 undeclared Leadsom backers, one for each hour between now and Monday?
    I'd rather not !
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    matt said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.
    To answer this question properly there needs to be a shared understanding of rich.

    If rich is doctors, senior managers, IT professionals, head teachers earning £80k-200k I would agree with those saying we should not actively make them poorer (whether through redistribution or no-deal!!).

    If rich is FTSE 100 directors, top flight footballers, businesspeople who buy companies to make them bankrupt and take the assets, foreign oligarchs with dubious sources of wealth I think we definitely should be seeking to make them poorer and pay a greater share, as in each case the market is not efficient or fair in awarding them their share of the pie.
    As Labour’s income tax policy suggests they believe anyone earning over, I recall, £80k is deemed the rich, I think that an inference can be easily drawn. Further I note that amount is greater than an MPs salary. Coincidence?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    And here I thought it was supposed to be the left that put their faith in magic money trees...
    Economic growth is magic?

    UK GDP per capita $39,720
    Venezuela GDP per capita $15,692
    Australia GDP per capita $53,800

    No magic.
    Step 1: Let the ultra-rich grow their wealth more and more without doing anything to earn it, forever
    Step 2: ???
    Step 3: Prosperity for all
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    matt said:

    matt said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.
    To answer this question properly there needs to be a shared understanding of rich.

    If rich is doctors, senior managers, IT professionals, head teachers earning £80k-200k I would agree with those saying we should not actively make them poorer (whether through redistribution or no-deal!!).

    If rich is FTSE 100 directors, top flight footballers, businesspeople who buy companies to make them bankrupt and take the assets, foreign oligarchs with dubious sources of wealth I think we definitely should be seeking to make them poorer and pay a greater share, as in each case the market is not efficient or fair in awarding them their share of the pie.
    As Labour’s income tax policy suggests they believe anyone earning over, I recall, £80k is deemed the rich, I think that an inference can be easily drawn. Further I note that amount is greater than an MPs salary. Coincidence?
    Wasn't it lower than that?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    And here I thought it was supposed to be the left that put their faith in magic money trees...
    Economic growth is magic?

    UK GDP per capita $39,720
    Venezuela GDP per capita $15,692
    Australia GDP per capita $53,800

    No magic.
    Step 1: Let the ultra-rich grow their wealth more and more without doing anything to earn it, forever
    Step 2: ???
    Step 3: Prosperity for all
    So what do you suggest?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson takes a huge 30% lead in snap new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll on 42%. Gove second on 12% and Raab third on 10%. Rory Stewart beats Hunt and Hancock to be the top Remainer and takes 4th place on 8% with Steve Baker 5th
    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/06/conhomes-snap-leadership-election-survey-johnson-puts-on-ten-points-and-bestrides-our-table-like-a-colossus.html

    And Steve Baker beats Javid, Hancock and even Hunt on that poll!
    And with 4-5 MPs support, 1.3% of the members first choice max lies Leadsom with a 10% chance according to Betfair...
    I've only ever had more money opposing Marine Le Pen in the French 2nd round.
    can you imagine the mayhem if there are 70 undeclared Leadsom backers, one for each hour between now and Monday?
    I'd rather not !
    The old -412 nexct to her name suggests me neither...

    Actually also my biggest net exposure since Le Pen. Or perhaps ever, I can't remember what Trump's competitors were after Florida.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    matt said:

    matt said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.
    To answer this question properly there needs to be a shared understanding of rich.

    If rich is doctors, senior managers, IT professionals, head teachers earning £80k-200k I would agree with those saying we should not actively make them poorer (whether through redistribution or no-deal!!).

    If rich is FTSE 100 directors, top flight footballers, businesspeople who buy companies to make them bankrupt and take the assets, foreign oligarchs with dubious sources of wealth I think we definitely should be seeking to make them poorer and pay a greater share, as in each case the market is not efficient or fair in awarding them their share of the pie.
    As Labour’s income tax policy suggests they believe anyone earning over, I recall, £80k is deemed the rich, I think that an inference can be easily drawn. Further I note that amount is greater than an MPs salary. Coincidence?
    Not to mention that after a few years of socialist inflation and fiscal drag, £80k will be less than average earnings and heading for the minimum wage.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited June 2019

    That also depends by how you describe 'inequality'.

    In London it would be the difference between the extreme rich and the poor.

    In much of the country it would be the difference between property owners and renters.

    Then there is the inequality in employment and educational opportunities between deprived areas and average areas.

    Not forgetting generational inequality.

    And as inequality takes different forms then policies to reduce it will also need to be different.

    So if a Labour government focuses on 'London type inequality' it much have no effect in reducing other forms of inequality and may instead worsen them.

    Yes, you have to define something very precisely if your whole mission is to have a big impact on it. And although a targeted hike to tax & spend is great, you need more than that.

    4 from me that I am hoping to see in the Labour manifesto -

    1. CGT on sales of residential property.
    2. Decentralized state bank to boost investment in the regions.
    3. Social care part funded by higher IHT.
    4. Heavily dis-incentivize private education.

    Any of those grab you? - in a good way, I mean.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2019

    matt said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    That’s the tedious zero-sum game. Rather than making the pie bigger, focus on increasingly baroque ways of dividing the current pie.
    To answer this question properly there needs to be a shared understanding of rich.

    If rich is doctors, senior managers, IT professionals, head teachers earning £80k-200k I would agree with those saying we should not actively make them poorer (whether through redistribution or no-deal!!).

    If rich is FTSE 100 directors, top flight footballers, businesspeople who buy companies to make them bankrupt and take the assets, foreign oligarchs with dubious sources of wealth I think we definitely should be seeking to make them poorer and pay a greater share, as in each case the market is not efficient or fair in awarding them their share of the pie.
    Almost all businesspeople invest their own funds, blood, sweat and tears to make their businesses work. Asset strippers are the exception not the rule.

    How does making footballers like Virgil van Dijk or Mo Salah poorer make our economy more efficient? Considering that Liverpool are getting great success in being the Champions of Europe and indeed all 4 European finalists were English how would driving talent like that out of the country improve our economy?

    Liverpool with Salah, Van Dijk etc aren't just getting success on the field but are a financial success too making record profits drawing in income from across Europe and the world. So the players are more than justifying their wages.

    Their success hasn't just improved the gaiety of the nation via their fans but economically their success helps businesses and other individuals across the country too.

    Finally of course the country takes massive taxes from footballers, clubs etc

    So please explain how actively seeking to make Mo Salah poorer would make the nation more efficient.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    So he’s back to thinking that making the rich poorer is more important than making the poor richer.

    I think it's more that if you're serious about making the poor richer you have to be WILLING (if necessary) to make the rich poorer.

    It would be better if you can achieve it without doing that - but it might not be possible.
    No you don't. You need to be be willing to grow the pie so that all get richer. The fact that ideologues like you still don't get that is tragic.
    And here I thought it was supposed to be the left that put their faith in magic money trees...
    Economic growth is magic?

    UK GDP per capita $39,720
    Venezuela GDP per capita $15,692
    Australia GDP per capita $53,800

    No magic.
    Step 1: Let the ultra-rich grow their wealth more and more without doing anything to earn it, forever
    Step 2: ???
    Step 3: Prosperity for all
    Would you rather be in the bottom 10 percentile of Britain, Venezuela or Australia?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    kinabalu said:

    That also depends by how you describe 'inequality'.

    In London it would be the difference between the extreme rich and the poor.

    In much of the country it would be the difference between property owners and renters.

    Then there is the inequality in employment and educational opportunities between deprived areas and average areas.

    Not forgetting generational inequality.

    And as inequality takes different forms then policies to reduce it will also need to be different.

    So if a Labour government focuses on 'London type inequality' it much have no effect in reducing other forms of inequality and may instead worsen them.

    Yes, you have to define something very precisely if your whole mission is to have a big impact on it. And although a targeted hike to tax & spend is great, you need more than that.

    4 from me that I am hoping to see in the Labour manifesto -

    1. CGT on sales of residential property.
    2. Decentralized state bank to boost investment in the regions.
    3. Social care part funded by higher IHT.
    4. Heavily dis-incentivize private education.

    Any of those grab you? - in a good way, I mean.
    1. You've just created a massive disincentive for older people to sell up and downsize, exacerbating the housing crisis foe younger families.
    2. We've just managed to get rid out state ownership of banks, it didn't go well.
    3. You've just pushed more people into tax planning, causing a reduction in actual tax take.
    4. Who pays for all of the additional pupils who's parents now decide that can't or won't send their kids to private school?

    As always with the left, policies that sounds good but will wreck the economy (and in this case the education sector).
This discussion has been closed.