politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ChangeUK is learning the hard way that there’s more to running
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ChangeUK is learning the hard way that there’s more to running a political party than just getting a few MP defectors
The widely reported problems it is having with its selection of some candidates for the European elections together with the difficulty getting a logo registered are just indications of the teething trouble that ChangeUK is having in its attempt to establish itself as a new political force.
Comments
-
First
0 -
I think the opposite to the thread header. If CUK had stood in the local elections and got zero seats that would have been a poor platform for the EU elections. They have kept their powder dry and resources for the real battle. I might well vote LD in the locals but CUK in the EU elections if they happen.0
-
Ach, it made my teeth ache. Goodwin is a good analyst but a terrible advocate, and his writing style can be overwhelmed by his POV and propensity to whine (see previous articles). However he accidentally raised an interesting point about the comprehension of numbers. Let's look at an example. He says that:ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
"while 80% of Leavers are open to having a Remainer acquaintance, only 70% of Remainers feel the same way[sic]";
Here's a good habit: put the numbers in a table:
-----------%age approve---%age disapprove
Leavers 80% 20%
Remainers 70% 30%
----------------------------------------
Goodwin uses this and other similar figures to state that Remainers are more intolerant than Leavers. Fair interpretation (although begging the question!). But here's my point: how much more?
Is it
* 10% more intolerant (30% minus 20%)
* 12% more intolerant (1 minus 70%/80%)
* 50% more intolerant (30%/20% minus 1)
* 66% as tolerant (20%/30%)
* 87.5% as tolerant (70%/80%)
The point I'm trying to make is twofold, thus:
* Goodwin did not give a definition of intolerance that could be measured numerically. You don't have to put things into numbers to put them in order (Olympic medals being a famous example) but if you want to say how much more, it's important.
* Goodwin did not include a threshold: how much intolerance is acceptable and how much not.
These two points - provide a numeric definition of the metric, then provide a threshold - are important if you wish to assess data, and it's amazing how bloody often they are neglected.
OK, rant over, Say goodnight, viewcode...
0 -
That's a sloppy translation. The intensifier 'tout' implies that the question is settled. "Of course it has its own place..." would be better.Theuniondivvie said:
Oui.Foxy said:
I think Scottish Independence pretty inevitable now. Remain is polling even stronger in Scotland than 3 years ago. The EU will cut them a good deal for accelerated entry, and the border issues are less than in Ireland. On the positive side I may be able to keep FOM if I get a Scottish Passport.williamglenn said:
Imagine if the SNP win in Scotland and the Brexit Party win in England...viewcode said:
I'm getting a bit worried about this: not at the poll results themselves, but by the fact that everybody seems to be overlooking regional differences. If we assume Brexit voting intention is proportional to 2016 Referendum vote then BrexParty's voters are disproprtionalety in England and Wales, and mostly on the South and East coasts of England, yes? But Conservative votes are more evenly and has support in Scotland where BrexParty has none. So BXP's support may be stronger than Con in certain areasFoxy said:https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1121125189406941184?s=19
Notional Lab majority of 4 according to flavable.
https://twitter.com/ashleyannotate/status/11211749430377840650 -
Given the CUK MEP candidates we are seeing crash and burn, gawd knows what council candidates would have crawled out the woodwork.
CUK will end up as a footnote in Labour's internal strife. The three Tory MPs who joined won't even merit that.0 -
ChangeUK, LDs and Greens all fighting against each other at the Euros is nonsense on stilts.0
-
Seventh, like the CUKs at the EU elections.0
-
ChangeUK going AWOL for the biggest set of local elections in the four year cycle of these elections might in retrospect not look smart.
They should have been AWOL for *both* elections. They don't particularly bring anything to the Euro table that the LibDems and the Greens don't already have, they haven't had time to make a proper party yet, and they didn't *need* to create a party; Being an independent group was working fine.0 -
https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.
0 -
I think this a decent point.The_Taxman said:I think the opposite to the thread header. If CUK had stood in the local elections and got zero seats that would have been a poor platform for the EU elections. They have kept their powder dry and resources for the real battle. I might well vote LD in the locals but CUK in the EU elections if they happen.
The significant number in the Euro elections for political purposes is the total of remain and leave votes, rather than that of elected MEPs.
The total of LD, CHUK and Green, can be counted as clear and obvious remain votes. Labour is remainer-ish in terms of its voters (and leaver-ish in terms of its leader), so hard to know how precisely to count its Euro election vote.
The Tories are far more a party of leave than Labour are of remain - and the other two clearly parties of Leave and little else.
0 -
If Chuka were a painter, his minor daubings would be hung as "follower of Blair".TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.
I can see why that might make him "dislikable"!0 -
Labour's studied ambiguity over whethr it is for Leave or Remain will make any "totals" for Leave and Remain in the Euros equally ambiguous. And pointless.Nigelb said:
I think this a decent point.The_Taxman said:I think the opposite to the thread header. If CUK had stood in the local elections and got zero seats that would have been a poor platform for the EU elections. They have kept their powder dry and resources for the real battle. I might well vote LD in the locals but CUK in the EU elections if they happen.
The significant number in the Euro elections for political purposes is the total of remain and leave votes, rather than that of elected MEPs.
The total of LD, CHUK and Green, can be counted as clear and obvious remain votes. Labour is remainer-ish in terms of its voters (and leaver-ish in terms of its leader), so hard to know how precisely to count its Euro election vote.
The Tories are far more a party of leave than Labour are of remain - and the other two clearly parties of Leave and little else.0 -
Heidi Allen is an excellent media performer as demonstrated by the fact that someone's gone through a load of footage looking for clips of a few seconds that'll look lame out of context and that's the best they could come up with.TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.0 -
Shirley Williams was always touted as an excellent media performer.edmundintokyo said:
Heidi Allen is an excellent media performer as demonstrated by the fact that someone's gone through a load of footage looking for clips of a few seconds that'll look lame out of context and that's the best they could come up with.TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.
How many seats did she fight & lose ? Three GEs on the trot.
It won’t save Heidi either. She’s doomed.0 -
It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?0 -
You might say embarrassing embarrassing embarrassing embarrassing embarrassing embarrassing.TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.0 -
If I was being generous you could say she is struggling with the adjustment but I don't think she has been a particularly great performer since her defection. She is still a lot more engaging than say Angela Smith or some of the others but low bar here.edmundintokyo said:
Heidi Allen is an excellent media performer as demonstrated by the fact that someone's gone through a load of footage looking for clips of a few seconds that'll look lame out of context and that's the best they could come up with.TheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.-1 -
I agree, it'll be very tough for her to hold her seat. I wouldn't completely write it off - for example, if half the Con vote went to Farage and she cut a deal with the LibDems, she might be able to hang on, but a lot of things would have to go right for her to get reelected.YBarddCwsc said:Shirley Williams was always touted as an excellent media performer.
How many seats did she fight & lose ? Three GEs on the trot.
It won’t save Heidi either. She’s doomed.
But @TheJezziah was trying to say that she was crap at media on the basis of someone's editing, and that Chuka was better, both of which are bollocks.0 -
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
0 -
-
Half the remaining Tories are Remainers too, according to polling, not that there are going to be many!MarqueeMark said:
Labour's studied ambiguity over whethr it is for Leave or Remain will make any "totals" for Leave and Remain in the Euros equally ambiguous. And pointless.Nigelb said:
I think this a decent point.The_Taxman said:I think the opposite to the thread header. If CUK had stood in the local elections and got zero seats that would have been a poor platform for the EU elections. They have kept their powder dry and resources for the real battle. I might well vote LD in the locals but CUK in the EU elections if they happen.
The significant number in the Euro elections for political purposes is the total of remain and leave votes, rather than that of elected MEPs.
The total of LD, CHUK and Green, can be counted as clear and obvious remain votes. Labour is remainer-ish in terms of its voters (and leaver-ish in terms of its leader), so hard to know how precisely to count its Euro election vote.
The Tories are far more a party of leave than Labour are of remain - and the other two clearly parties of Leave and little else.0 -
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.0 -
Morning, all. The fine weather seems to have left us. Light rain here.0
-
I do think Chuka is better, crap is a bit further than I went although words are imprecise unless we use a point scale and not just on the basis on one video (although it certainly didn't help)edmundintokyo said:
I agree, it'll be very tough for her to hold her seat. I wouldn't completely write it off - for example, if half the Con vote went to Farage and she cut a deal with the LibDems, she might be able to hang on, but a lot of things would have to go right for her to get reelected.YBarddCwsc said:Shirley Williams was always touted as an excellent media performer.
How many seats did she fight & lose ? Three GEs on the trot.
It won’t save Heidi either. She’s doomed.
But @TheJezziah was trying to say that she was crap at media on the basis of someone's editing, and that Chuka was better, both of which are bollocks.
I don't like him but look at Farage, there is a gulf there.
In regards to Chuka I do think he is quite 'smooth' with the meda, can possibly come across as fake and a as a bit of an ego but I always felt he handles them fairly well. I actually like Allen more and she can come across a bit warmer but just not quite the same level with the media.
Maybe it is just me that thinks that though...0 -
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.0 -
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.0 -
While that may be true for the CHUK Tories, the Labour ones do not really have that excuse, as the issues that they are grumbling about have been going on for years. There was no particular crisis.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
As a Centrist, former member of New Labour who supported the SDP in the eighties, I should be their target demographic, but I am quite disappointed. I quite like several of them as individuals, and know little about the others, but the only thing that they seem to agree on is being anti Brexit. There is already a great boredom about that as an issue, and several other anti Brexit parties.
0 -
And you have missed mine.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
Not that they haven't been planning, according to interviews there was some work done for a while.
But let's say they were rushed out because of events without time to plan. Then they should know that is the case and plan their strategy and tactics appropriately. My criticism wasn't just purely related to a lack of preparation but expecting the success without the preparation.
If they had realistically assessed they were in a bad place and unprepared because of events then they shouldn't have strategised as if they were like Macron about to seize the throne.0 -
The crosstabs on that survey were interesting. It is the youngsters who object to a relative marrying a Brexiteer, presumably meaning themselves or a sibling. The older people rarely objected, but presumably most of those marrying would be their children or grandchildren. Most of these would be Remainers anyway, so why object to them marrying another Remainer?viewcode said:
Ach, it made my teeth ache. Goodwin is a good analyst but a terrible advocate, and his writing style can be overwhelmed by his POV and propensity to whine (see previous articles). However he accidentally raised an interesting point about the comprehension of numbers. Let's look at an example. He says that:ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
"while 80% of Leavers are open to having a Remainer acquaintance, only 70% of Remainers feel the same way[sic]";
Here's a good habit: put the numbers in a table:
-----------%age approve---%age disapprove
Leavers 80% 20%
Remainers 70% 30%
----------------------------------------
Goodwin uses this and other similar figures to state that Remainers are more intolerant than Leavers. Fair interpretation (although begging the question!). But here's my point: how much more?
Is it
* 10% more intolerant (30% minus 20%)
* 12% more intolerant (1 minus 70%/80%)
* 50% more intolerant (30%/20% minus 1)
* 66% as tolerant (20%/30%)
* 87.5% as tolerant (70%/80%)
The point I'm trying to make is twofold, thus:
* Goodwin did not give a definition of intolerance that could be measured numerically. You don't have to put things into numbers to put them in order (Olympic medals being a famous example) but if you want to say how much more, it's important.
* Goodwin did not include a threshold: how much intolerance is acceptable and how much not.
These two points - provide a numeric definition of the metric, then provide a threshold - are important if you wish to assess data, and it's amazing how bloody often they are neglected.
OK, rant over, Say goodnight, viewcode...0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Wet, dreary, all a bit bland. Still, things should improve in a little while.0 -
The attitude being shown to the lib dems by change shows how out of touch they are and undeserving of any lib dem votes. To publicly seek to take over the lib dems is crass and shortsightedNigelb said:
I think this a decent point.The_Taxman said:I think the opposite to the thread header. If CUK had stood in the local elections and got zero seats that would have been a poor platform for the EU elections. They have kept their powder dry and resources for the real battle. I might well vote LD in the locals but CUK in the EU elections if they happen.
The significant number in the Euro elections for political purposes is the total of remain and leave votes, rather than that of elected MEPs.
The total of LD, CHUK and Green, can be counted as clear and obvious remain votes. Labour is remainer-ish in terms of its voters (and leaver-ish in terms of its leader), so hard to know how precisely to count its Euro election vote.
The Tories are far more a party of leave than Labour are of remain - and the other two clearly parties of Leave and little else.0 -
There was of course another option for them - to join the Lib Dems. They may come to regret their haughty dismissal of that.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.0 -
Of course, we can blame them for a lack of planning.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
They didn’t come home on February 17th, & find smouldering embers where their house once had stood. They didn’t have to rush off with a few things saved from the fire to build a new party the next day.
These fires have been a long, long time in the burning.
Guy Verhofstadt had it right. Remainers have been just as clueless as the Leavers. And the TIGgers have been worst of all.
Clueless, cretinous, lacking in any sense of purpose, needlessly antagonising the LibDems, they represent the worst kind of smug self-satisfied Remainer.0 -
You assume that they expected success. I see no evidence for that assertion. They seem to have acted out of despair.TheJezziah said:
And you have missed mine.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
Not that they haven't been planning, according to interviews there was some work done for a while.
But let's say they were rushed out because of events without time to plan. Then they should know that is the case and plan their strategy and tactics appropriately. My criticism wasn't just purely related to a lack of preparation but expecting the success without the preparation.
If they had realistically assessed they were in a bad place and unprepared because of events then they shouldn't have strategised as if they were like Macron about to seize the throne.
I see no evidence for your assertion that they thought they were about to seize the throne. That sounds like a standard hard left line to take and a pretty implausible one at that.
As it happens, they have achieved a fair bit already, simply by changing the dynamics of the debate over Brexit and the dynamics within the Labour party. If they do nothing more they will have done more than most MPs.0 -
Individually they still could.El_Capitano said:
There was of course another option for them - to join the Lib Dems. They may come to regret their haughty dismissal of that.
I guess for some of them it's not a great fit, though.0 -
Have you read their strategy?AlastairMeeks said:
You assume that they expected success. I see no evidence for that assertion. They seem to have acted out of despair.TheJezziah said:
And you have missed mine.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:AlastairMeeks said:TheJezziah said:AlastairMeeks said:
Not that they haven't been planning, according to interviews there was some work done for a while.
But let's say they were rushed out because of events without time to plan. Then they should know that is the case and plan their strategy and tactics appropriately. My criticism wasn't just purely related to a lack of preparation but expecting the success without the preparation.
If they had realistically assessed they were in a bad place and unprepared because of events then they shouldn't have strategised as if they were like Macron about to seize the throne.
I see no evidence for your assertion that they thought they were about to seize the throne. That sounds like a standard hard left line to take and a pretty implausible one at that.
As it happens, they have achieved a fair bit already, simply by changing the dynamics of the debate over Brexit and the dynamics within the Labour party. If they do nothing more they will have done more than most MPs.
The leaked one which mentions impaticular the Lib Dems?
Arrogant fools.
If it was just desperation to escape as others have mentioned the Lib Dems were there but according to them (not even the leaked document) the Lib Dems are 'tarnished'.
Which all leads me to the conclusion that they are incompetent or actually expected Macron style success Which would involve an election, I was using a turn of phrase with 'seize the throne'. No overthrowing of the monarchy was meant to be implied.0 -
I agree, they formed TIG knowing that it probably means the imminent end of their political careers.AlastairMeeks said:
You assume that they expected success. I see no evidence for that assertion. They seem to have acted out of despair.TheJezziah said:
And you have missed mine.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
Not that they haven't been planning, according to interviews there was some work done for a while.
But let's say they were rushed out because of events without time to plan. Then they should know that is the case and plan their strategy and tactics appropriately. My criticism wasn't just purely related to a lack of preparation but expecting the success without the preparation.
If they had realistically assessed they were in a bad place and unprepared because of events then they shouldn't have strategised as if they were like Macron about to seize the throne.
I see no evidence for your assertion that they thought they were about to seize the throne. That sounds like a standard hard left line to take and a pretty implausible one at that.
As it happens, they have achieved a fair bit already, simply by changing the dynamics of the debate over Brexit and the dynamics within the Labour party. If they do nothing more they will have done more than most MPs.
They didn't have to make it so certain though!0 -
SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=190 -
It appears to me that they're trying to 'do politics' from the top down. I don't think it works like that; a party needs some sort of base, and it doesn't even seem as though the TIGgers have taken many people in their own seats with them.Foxy said:
While that may be true for the CHUK Tories, the Labour ones do not really have that excuse, as the issues that they are grumbling about have been going on for years. There was no particular crisis.AlastairMeeks said:
You - as usual - deliberately miss my point. You can’t blame them for lack of planning if they were acting out of a sense of emergency that didn’t allow them to do the planning. And given the appalling goings-on in both main parties, that is entirely plausible.TheJezziah said:
Whilst I'm sure racing off to their new racist home was a top priority my comment wasn't in regards to their actual leaving but their actions since.AlastairMeeks said:
You perhaps underestimate the intense need both halves of the TIGgers felt to get away from their old homes. They might not have had the luxury of planning if they felt that they could no longer share a party with Jew-baiters on the one side and death cult Brexiteers on the other.TheJezziah said:
They are either incompetent or they expected events* to carry them. The second one doesn't necessarily rule out the first one.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
*Sort of like Macron/En Marche but without all the preparation work and just the exciting part where you beat the old parties and win.
As a Centrist, former member of New Labour who supported the SDP in the eighties, I should be their target demographic, but I am quite disappointed. I quite like several of them as individuals, and know little about the others, but the only thing that they seem to agree on is being anti Brexit. There is already a great boredom about that as an issue, and several other anti Brexit parties.
A comment or two from, say, a senior LibDems in Heidi Allen's seat might be illuminating. It appears that their candidate from 2017 is planning to fight the seat again in.... whenever!0 -
Even as a Remainer, I would pay good money to see Adenoids getting steamrollered by Widdecombe.Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=190 -
Adonis's reverse ferret on the #peoplesvote is one of the funniest in years.ydoethur said:
Even as a Remainer, I would pay good money to see Adenoids getting steamrollered by Widdecombe.Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=190 -
Number one on the CUK list for the West Midlands seems to be Stephen Dorrell. So I’ll be voting Green. More broadly, events have overtaken CUK. Realistically, from here the Brexit path is either No Deal or a referendum with Remain on the ballot. The former looks more likely than the latter, but only just. As per Martin Kettle, the party it all hinges on is Labour:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/no-soft-brexit-no-deal-revoke-vote0 -
Dr. Foxy, I've heard of all of those except Molly Scott Cato. What's her party/political perspective?0
-
I agree with this. It has been an exercise in how NOT to launch a party. What surprises me is how many school child errors they have committed.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
- The name is utterly ridiculous. It would be bad enough being TIG or TIGGERS. That's being polite. It's f-ing useless. They must have suss that at one of their gatherings and thought Change UK would be better. It isn't much. But instead of choosing one over the other they bolted it on. And threw in NP for good measure. So we've got some sort of combination of CHUCK UP (ok that's me being naughty) CHUK NP TIG
- The branding is goddam hopeless. I mean the worst I have ever seen at any launch ever in history. Just crassly appallingly awful
- The logo was rejected (leading to some terrible lampooning by right-winger Guido Fawkes) and was terrible
- No slogan to fit what they stand for
Then there is the lack of policy agreement, selection mistakes and lack of vetting, lack of one clear decisive leader and, to cap it all, the vicious, nasty and underhand, snide attack on the Liberal Democrats which shows they're exactly what they claim to be opposing ... it goes on and on.0 -
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support for Leave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.0 -
She is current Green MEP for the region. Quite sane, would be a useful foil for the freakshow of others.Morris_Dancer said:Dr. Foxy, I've heard of all of those except Molly Scott Cato. What's her party/political perspective?
0 -
On the positive side, it looks as if over the past couple of weeks, someone at Liberty Media has told Youtube to unblock all the F1 videos that Bernie had taken down in the past decade! There’s dozens of complete historical races and hundreds of highlights videos there now.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Wet, dreary, all a bit bland. Still, things should improve in a little while.0 -
He's been compared to a hostage reading out a statement.Foxy said:
Adonis's reverse ferret on the #peoplesvote is one of the funniest in years.ydoethur said:
Even as a Remainer, I would pay good money to see Adenoids getting steamrollered by Widdecombe.Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=19
WRT the header, I'm not sure that's a good strategy from the Lib Dems and Greens. Voters aren't chess pieces.0 -
Sargon.. its that the character from Star Trek?Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=190 -
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
0 -
I am not sure I buy the branding/name criticisms. Everyone is talking about both, which is kind of the point of a party name and branding, isn’t it? They may be crap, but then Conservative and Labour are hardly inspiring. And what on earth does Liberal Democrat even mean? The key thing is name recognition and association. Now everyone knows CUK/TIG and everyone knows it is an anti-Brexit party. Job done at low cost, surely.Mysticrose said:
I agree with this. It has been an exercise in how NOT to launch a party. What surprises me is how many school child errors they have committed.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
- The name is utterly ridiculous. It would be bad enough being TIG or TIGGERS. That's being polite. It's f-ing useless. They must have suss that at one of their gatherings and thought Change UK would be better. It isn't much. But instead of choosing one over the other they bolted it on. And threw in NP for good measure. So we've got some sort of combination of CHUCK UP (ok that's me being naughty) CHUK NP TIG
- The branding is goddam hopeless. I mean the worst I have ever seen at any launch ever in history. Just crassly appallingly awful
- The logo was rejected (leading to some terrible lampooning by right-winger Guido Fawkes) and was terrible
- No slogan to fit what they stand for
Then there is the lack of policy agreement, selection mistakes and lack of vetting, lack of one clear decisive leader and, to cap it all, the vicious, nasty and underhand, snide attack on the Liberal Democrats which shows they're exactly what they claim to be opposing ... it goes on and on.
0 -
He is the guy who makes the hilarious rape satires about women with their own opinions. Standing for UKIP.SquareRoot said:
Sargon.. its that the character from Star Trek?Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=19
0 -
I take your point, but it wasn't the question I askedFoxy said:
He is the guy who makes the hilarious rape satires about women with their own opinions. Standing for UKIP.SquareRoot said:
Sargon.. its that the character from Star Trek?Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=190 -
Watching from the outside, it’s hilarious, but must be immensely frustrating for those on the inside, that the leaders of the movement don’t appear to have a clue what they’re doing.Mysticrose said:
I agree with this. It has been an exercise in how NOT to launch a party. What surprises me is how many school child errors they have committed.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
- The name is utterly ridiculous. It would be bad enough being TIG or TIGGERS. That's being polite. It's f-ing useless. They must have suss that at one of their gatherings and thought Change UK would be better. It isn't much. But instead of choosing one over the other they bolted it on. And threw in NP for good measure. So we've got some sort of combination of CHUCK UP (ok that's me being naughty) CHUK NP TIG
- The branding is goddam hopeless. I mean the worst I have ever seen at any launch ever in history. Just crassly appallingly awful
- The logo was rejected (leading to some terrible lampooning by right-winger Guido Fawkes) and was terrible
- No slogan to fit what they stand for
Then there is the lack of policy agreement, selection mistakes and lack of vetting, lack of one clear decisive leader and, to cap it all, the vicious, nasty and underhand, snide attack on the Liberal Democrats which shows they're exactly what they claim to be opposing ... it goes on and on.
It’s almost as if Chuka thought he could be the next Obama or Macron - but by default, without having to do any work.0 -
He's the ruler of the Vegans.SquareRoot said:
Sargon.. its that the character from Star Trek?Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=19
0 -
What works better IMO is if the parties in multi-member wards (which are the norm, for no good reason that I can fathom) don't put up a maximum number of candidates. In my ward there are two Borough seats and 4 Town seats. There's a LibDem and me standing for the Borough, and Labour, LibDem and Green candidates for the Town. This outcome isn't totally planned but the effect should be that all non-Tory voters are encouraged to turn up to vote for their people, and while they're at it, why not give the others a vote too? Not everyone will as tribalism kicks in, but my impression from canvassing is that about 80% of them will. By contrast, if there is no candidate from your party, the temptation is to give the election a miss.Sean_F said:
WRT the header, I'm not sure that's a good strategy from the Lib Dems and Greens. Voters aren't chess pieces.
I think the scorn for TIG is being a bit overdone - they clearly aren't finding it easy, but they're successfully staying in the news and getting 4-9% in the polls. I wish they weren't as I think they're a dangerous distraction which may damage any of the other parties (probably the LibDems most, ironically since they have no ex-LibDem MPs) in ways we can't predict without actually winning any seats, but I wouldn't write them off yet.0 -
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support for Leave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.0 -
Off topic, Sainsbury's-ASDA merger just blocked by CMA.0
-
Political obsessives are talking about it, ordanairy people are having the limited stream of CUK/TIG news they see split between several different names.SouthamObserver said:
I am not sure I buy the branding/name criticisms. Everyone is talking about both, which is kind of the point of a party name and branding, isn’t it? They may be crap, but then Conservative and Labour are hardly inspiring. And what on earth does Liberal Democrat even mean? The key thing is name recognition and association. Now everyone knows CUK/TIG and everyone knows it is an anti-Brexit party. Job done at low cost, surely.Mysticrose said:
I agree with this. It has been an exercise in how NOT to launch a party. What surprises me is how many school child errors they have committed.AlastairMeeks said:It’s the difference between being a senior manager in a large company and the owner of a start-up. They’re not the same job at all.
Some of their mistakes have been very basic though. They need a sense of energy at least. Where is it?
- The name is utterly ridiculous. It would be bad enough being TIG or TIGGERS. That's being polite. It's f-ing useless. They must have suss that at one of their gatherings and thought Change UK would be better. It isn't much. But instead of choosing one over the other they bolted it on. And threw in NP for good measure. So we've got some sort of combination of CHUCK UP (ok that's me being naughty) CHUK NP TIG
- The branding is goddam hopeless. I mean the worst I have ever seen at any launch ever in history. Just crassly appallingly awful
- The logo was rejected (leading to some terrible lampooning by right-winger Guido Fawkes) and was terrible
- No slogan to fit what they stand for
Then there is the lack of policy agreement, selection mistakes and lack of vetting, lack of one clear decisive leader and, to cap it all, the vicious, nasty and underhand, snide attack on the Liberal Democrats which shows they're exactly what they claim to be opposing ... it goes on and on.
Also my thoughts regarding the name are following other parties it is something basic and gives you an idea about their politics.
Labour, Conservatives, Green, UKIP, SNP, DUP, Brexit party, UUP, SDLP with just a basic understanding of British politics you understand their politics from their name. I assume you could make a fairly good guess at Sinn Fein as well with a tiny amount of knowledge of N. Ireland and Plaid Cymru just needs an intelligent guess (and maybe seeing Cymru wrote instead of Wales somewhere) Liberal Democrats has Liberal in the name which gives perhaps some indication.
Change UK - The Independent Group or whatever combination you use tells you nothing unless you specifically know about them already.0 -
Thank youSean_F said:
He's the ruler of the Vegans.SquareRoot said:
Sargon.. its that the character from Star Trek?Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=19
I thought it must be another Trekkie
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Sargon0 -
Obviously, PR would be better for them. As well from being staunchly pro-EU (for which there is big market, but with lots of competition) they seem to represent the sort of people who would favour Christian Democratic parties on the Continent.NickPalmer said:
What works better IMO is if the parties in multi-member wards (which are the norm, for no good reason that I can fathom) don't put up a maximum number of candidates. In my ward there are two Borough seats and 4 Town seats. There's a LibDem and me standing for the Borough, and Labour, LibDem and Green candidates for the Town. This outcome isn't totally planned but the effect should be that all non-Tory voters are encouraged to turn up to vote for their people, and while they're at it, why not give the others a vote too? Not everyone will as tribalism kicks in, but my impression from canvassing is that about 80% of them will. By contrast, if there is no candidate from your party, the temptation is to give the election a miss.Sean_F said:
WRT the header, I'm not sure that's a good strategy from the Lib Dems and Greens. Voters aren't chess pieces.
I think the scorn for TIG is being a bit overdone - they clearly aren't finding it easy, but they'resuccessfully staying in the news and getting 4-9% in the polls. I wish they weren't as I think they're a dangerous distraction which may damage any of the other parties (probably the LibDems most, ironically since they have no ex-LibDem MPs) in ways we can't predict without actually winning any seats, but I wouldn't write them off yet.
0 -
I would agree generally but there are some issues where in my opinion there is a right answer, and the fact someone holds the other POV tells you something quite unpleasant about their character. Eg can someone believe that gay people are an abomination and be considered a nice person? Can someone believe that Britain is a white country and non-whites should be "repatriated" and be a nice person? The answer to both questions is no in my view, and I can't honestly imagine being friends with such a person. (Not incidentally, both hypothetical people would be much more likely to have voted Leave than Remain).Sean_F said:
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.0 -
Dr. Foxy, thanks.
Mr. Sandpit, I might go back and enjoy the 2011 Canadian Grand Prix. Or the 2016 Spanish race.0 -
LOL I can see you there in the volcano stroking your Siamese cat as you say that.TheJezziah said:Arrogant fools.
0 -
Yes, it is always amusing to see a blatant example of either a spokesman putting iut a statement as damage control or the person in question desperately and in overly early language try to tell back in totally unequivocal statements.Foxy said:
Adonis's reverse ferret on the #peoplesvote is one of the funniest in years.ydoethur said:
Even as a Remainer, I would pay good money to see Adenoids getting steamrollered by Widdecombe.Foxy said:SW Euro hustings are shaping up to be interesting, though I do quite like the fragrant Rachel Johnson:
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1121065057247465472?s=190 -
Incidentally, a factor in CUK's creation that hasn't been mentioned is that a lot of the Labour participants had had VONCs in their local parties. I think if they'd stood and fought they'd have mostly hung on, because the VONCs were usually from just the activist members, but clearly it's easier to defect if your party has just said they don't like you. Nick Boles has had the same on the Tory side, and there was an abortive attempt at it against Anna Soubry.0
-
Change U.K.’s problems amply demonstrate why Remainers want the EU to continue to run Britain and do their thinking for them.0
-
amazedDrutt said:Off topic, Sainsbury's-ASDA merger just blocked by CMA.
the government has actually done something sensible0 -
FPT--the idea that, after three years of Brexit, Scotland will vote to go through that all over again with independence (which would be all the issues of Brexit on steroids) seems for the birds to me. Desire for full membership of the EU is very unlikely to overrule all of those concerns, despite how passionately some might feel about it.0
-
I'll probably vote TIG. Not very impressed with them at all but the SW candidates are pretty wacky anyway and I do want to encourage the new party. Not sure they will get even 1 seat though in which case what do they do next? And now they are a party surely they'll stand in Peterborough?0
-
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support for Leave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.0 -
A cloud for every silver lining?SouthamObserver said:0 -
Mr. Brooke, statistically, the Government was always likely to get something right, if only by accident.0
-
I think their best market is pro - EU conservatives, such as Stephen Dorrell who is MEP candidate for CHUK here in the East Midlands. These are the politically homeless at present. More left wing Remainers are a better fit for LD or Green. I think that with Layla leading we will see a growing tacit alliance between the latter two.Sean_F said:
Obviously, PR would be better for them. As well from being staunchly pro-EU (for which there is big market, but with lots of competition) they seem to represent the sort of people who would favour Christian Democratic parties on the Continent.NickPalmer said:
What works better IMO is if the parties in multi-member wards (which are the norm, for no good reason that I can fathom) don't put up a maximum number of candidates. In my ward there are two Borough seats and 4 Town seats. There's a LibDem and me standing for the Borough, and Labour, LibDem and Green candidates for the Town. This outcome isn't totally planned but the effect should be that all non-Tory voters are encouraged to turn up to vote for their people, and while they're at it, why not give the others a vote too? Not everyone will as tribalism kicks in, but my impression from canvassing is that about 80% of them will. By contrast, if there is no candidate from your party, the temptation is to give the election a miss.Sean_F said:
WRT the header, I'm not sure that's a good strategy from the Lib Dems and Greens. Voters aren't chess pieces.
I think the scorn for TIG is being a bit overdone - they clearly aren't finding it easy, but they'resuccessfully staying in the news and getting 4-9% in the polls. I wish they weren't as I think they're a dangerous distraction which may damage any of the other parties (probably the LibDems most, ironically since they have no ex-LibDem MPs) in ways we can't predict without actually winning any seats, but I wouldn't write them off yet.0 -
I think that has not been mentioned a lot for good reason. While a factor it certainly in not easy for someone to quit their party ofv perhaps decades and attempt the very difficult task of breaking into the British party system. That's why it is easier to give up or cross to an existing party than defect to body and start a new one.NickPalmer said:Incidentally, a factor in CUK's creation that hasn't been mentioned is that a lot of the Labour participants had had VONCs in their local parties. I think if they'd stood and fought they'd have mostly hung on, because the VONCs were usually from just the activist members, but clearly it's easier to defect if your party has just said they don't like you. Nick Boles has had the same on the Tory side, and there was an abortive attempt at it against Anna Soubry.
Thst may not have been the best approach but I think it a bit unkind to suggest it was easier to ho down this route. It strikes me as, meaning no offence, what party spokesmen would say, like the accusation of them being csreerist.0 -
If CUK can’t attract the likes of SO and myself, I question their future.0
-
Does mean we're likely some way off from the next thing done right though.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Brooke, statistically, the Government was always likely to get something right, if only by accident.
0 -
The Remain/Leave split in somewhere like inner Birmingham would suggest that plenty of Remain voters there would be of the view that homosexuality is an abomination. Some of them might have some interesting opinions on Jews and Christians, as well. Likewise, I doubt if Remain voters in Crossmaglen are noted for tolerance.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I would agree generally but there are some issues where in my opinion there is a right answer, and the fact someone holds the other POV tells you something quite unpleasant about their character. Eg can someone believe that gay people are an abomination and be considered a nice person? Can someone believe that Britain is a white country and non-whites should be "repatriated" and be a nice person? The answer to both questions is no in my view, and I can't honestly imagine being friends with such a person. (Not incidentally, both hypothetical people would be much more likely to have voted Leave than Remain).Sean_F said:
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
There are good and bad people on either side.
0 -
ChangeUK is also hit by the fact we are still in the EU, thus Remsiners have less to complain about than Brexiteers at the moment and thus it is the Brexit Party with momentum, at least the LDs can go on potholes and Nimbyism in the locals not just an anti Brexit line0
-
I thought Dorrell was West Midlands.Foxy said:
I think their best market is pro - EU conservatives, such as Stephen Dorrell who is MEP candidate for CHUK here in the East Midlands. These are the politically homeless at present. More left wing Remainers are a better fit for LD or Green. I think that with Layla leading we will see a growing tacit alliance between the latter two.Sean_F said:
Obviously, PR would be better for them. As well from being staunchly pro-EU (for which there is big market, but with lots of competition) they seem to represent the sort of people who would favour Christian Democratic parties on the Continent.NickPalmer said:
What works better IMO is if the parties in multi-member wards (which are the norm, for no good reason that I can fathom) don't put up a maximum number of candidates. In my ward there are two Borough seats and 4 Town seats. There's a LibDem and me standing for the Borough, and Labour, LibDem and Green candidates for the Town. This outcome isn't totally planned but the effect should be that all non-Tory voters are encouraged to turn up to vote for their people, and while they're at it, why not give the others a vote too? Not everyone will as tribalism kicks in, but my impression from canvassing is that about 80% of them will. By contrast, if there is no candidate from your party, the temptation is to give the election a miss.Sean_F said:
WRT the header, I'm not sure that's a good strategy from the Lib Dems and Greens. Voters aren't chess pieces.
I think the scorn for TIG is being a bit overdone - they clearly aren't finding it easy, but they'resuccessfully staying in the news and getting 4-9% in the polls. I wish they weren't as I think they're a dangerous distraction which may damage any of the other parties (probably the LibDems most, ironically since they have no ex-LibDem MPs) in ways we can't predict without actually winning any seats, but I wouldn't write them off yet.
0 -
The polling shows the median Scottish voter wants to stay in the UK and the EU, provided we avoid No Deal I think even indyref2 would still see No win, of course Sturgeon also risks a Unionist majority at Holyrood in 2021 anyway the longer she delaysCasino_Royale said:FPT--the idea that, after three years of Brexit, Scotland will vote to go through that all over again with independence (which would be all the issues of Brexit on steroids) seems for the birds to me. Desire for full membership of the EU is very unlikely to overrule all of those concerns, despite how passionately some might feel about it.
0 -
One of the remarkeable, yet unremarked, good things that happened yesterday was that the PM, leader of the DUP, and LOTO all attended a memorial service for an out Lesbian Catholic. Even Ulster is beginning to move with the times.Sean_F said:
The Remain/Leave split in somewhere like inner Birmingham would suggest that plenty of Remain voters there would be of the view that homosexuality is an abomination. Some of them might have some interesting opinions on Jews and Christians, as well. Likewise, I doubt if Remain voters in Crossmaglen are noted for tolerance.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I would agree generally but there are some issues where in my opinion there is a right answer, and the fact someone holds the other POV tells you something quite unpleasant about their character. Eg can someone believe that gay people are an abomination and be considered a nice person? Can someone believe that Britain is a white country and non-whites should be "repatriated" and be a nice person? The answer to both questions is no in my view, and I can't honestly imagine being friends with such a person. (Not incidentally, both hypothetical people would be much more likely to have voted Leave than Remain).Sean_F said:
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
There are good and bad people on either side.0 -
At the moment it is actually Deal plus Customs Union which is closer to a Commons majority than either No Deal or EUref2 as the indicative votes showed and May is still determined to get her Deal through without a referendumSouthamObserver said:Number one on the CUK list for the West Midlands seems to be Stephen Dorrell. So I’ll be voting Green. More broadly, events have overtaken CUK. Realistically, from here the Brexit path is either No Deal or a referendum with Remain on the ballot. The former looks more likely than the latter, but only just. As per Martin Kettle, the party it all hinges on is Labour:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/no-soft-brexit-no-deal-revoke-vote0 -
Would you say that rejoicing at the deaths of older voters since 2016 is the sign of being a nice person?OnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support for Leave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.
There are horrid people on the Leave side, but they exist on your side of the argument, too.
0 -
lolOnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support for Leave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.
each to his own of course, but the underlying assumption that the other side want to make out with intolerant prigs might be talking selfrighteous smugness a step too far,0 -
Once Brexit is out of the way the Tories will quite happily paper over the cracks and be the force to be reckoned with once more.SouthamObserver said:
Labour on the other hand have been hijacked by unelectable raging Trots, and until or unless they hand the reins back to someone sensible the Labour Party will languish around 30%. Momentum will not hand the party back - not when the prize ithey crave is perpetual opposition.
Tory woes are temporary. Labour are finished!0 -
The advocates for a second referendum on Scottish Independence have a lot in common with those advocating for a second Brexit referendum. Neither understand why they lost and neither has a strategy for victory a second time that goes beyond insisting they are right and hoping for the best.Casino_Royale said:FPT--the idea that, after three years of Brexit, Scotland will vote to go through that all over again with independence (which would be all the issues of Brexit on steroids) seems for the birds to me. Desire for full membership of the EU is very unlikely to overrule all of those concerns, despite how passionately some might feel about it.
0 -
Chuka knows CUK will only really start to grow once we have left the EU and Boris is Tory leader facing Corbyn as Labour leader probably from next year, he is happy to leave Heidi Allen as caretaker leader for now then he can take over after ChristmasTheJezziah said:https://twitter.com/SocialM85897394/status/1120737188747128832
I'm starting to think Chuka is their only semi reliable media performer, which is a problem as he also comes across as fake and is dislikable*...
*Maybe some bias on my part for that one.0 -
I wouldn't describe it as careerist so much as a feeling that if the bastards are going to drop me anyway I might as well make as much fuss as I can, and perhaps advertise myself as suitable or available for some other well paid job. Given what they've done, why should I worry about their interests?kle4 said:
I think that has not been mentioned a lot for good reason. While a factor it certainly in not easy for someone to quit their party ofv perhaps decades and attempt the very difficult task of breaking into the British party system. That's why it is easier to give up or cross to an existing party than defect to body and start a new one.NickPalmer said:Incidentally, a factor in CUK's creation that hasn't been mentioned is that a lot of the Labour participants had had VONCs in their local parties. I think if they'd stood and fought they'd have mostly hung on, because the VONCs were usually from just the activist members, but clearly it's easier to defect if your party has just said they don't like you. Nick Boles has had the same on the Tory side, and there was an abortive attempt at it against Anna Soubry.
Thst may not have been the best approach but I think it a bit unkind to suggest it was easier to ho down this route. It strikes me as, meaning no offence, what party spokesmen would say, like the accusation of them being csreerist.0 -
i'd be more impressed if I thought that people truly rejected the ideology of her killers.Foxy said:
One of the remarkeable, yet unremarked, good things that happened yesterday was that the PM, leader of the DUP, and LOTO all attended a memorial service for an out Lesbian Catholic. Even Ulster is beginning to move with the times.Sean_F said:
The Remain/Leave split in somewhere like inner Birmingham would suggest that plenty of Remain voters there would be of the view that homosexuality is an abomination. Some of them might have some interesting opinions on Jews and Christians, as well. Likewise, I doubt if Remain voters in Crossmaglen are noted for tolerance.OnlyLivingBoy said:
I would agree generally but there are some issues where in my opinion there is a right answer, and the fact someone holds the other POV tells you something quite unpleasant about their character. Eg can someone believe that gay people are an abomination and be considered a nice person? Can someone believe that Britain is a white country and non-whites should be "repatriated" and be a nice person? The answer to both questions is no in my view, and I can't honestly imagine being friends with such a person. (Not incidentally, both hypothetical people would be much more likely to have voted Leave than Remain).Sean_F said:
That turns on whether one thinks being in agreement with you has any bearing on whether one is a nice person. That would be a bold assumption, IMHO.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support forLeave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
There are good and bad people on either side.0 -
Funny, as I'm inclined to think the opposite - other than moaning every few months about anti semitism but doing little labour MPs seem content with labours direction even if many still dislike Corbyn. The Tory divisions are fundamental disagreements and if one side wins I dont think they can get passed that.Mexicanpete said:
Once Brexit is out of the way the Tories will quite happily paper over the cracks and be the force to be reckoned with once more.SouthamObserver said:
Labour on the other hand have been hijacked by unelectable raging Trots, and until or unless they hand the reins back to someone sensible the Labour Party will languish around 30%. Momentum will not hand the party back - not when the prize ithey crave s perpetual opposition.
Tory woes are temporary. Labour are finished!0 -
FPT from Axiomatic last thread (I'd said that people should admit their past views without apology, and either regret them, defend them or simply calmly explain they'd moved on, giving my Communist past as an example)::
--------
Bravely said, but imagine if your past was not communist, but Catholic, and you had therefore expressed mainstream 20th century Catholic views on homosexuality? That they are sinners destined to burn in hell? That wouldn't look so good now and you might have to resign, it's a lottery, essentially
---------
I think that's another good example (and interesting that being a former orthodox Catholic is seen as more embarrassing than being a former Communist). I think that in that case opinion has moved so far that "defend it" is not a viable option, but I'd probably be OK with an MP who said they used to think that as a regular churchgoer but they've realised it was quite wrong.
But you do need to decide what your view is and stick up for it. Tim Farron's public agonising over whether being gay was a sin just exasperated everyone. As he now recognises, it'd have been less bad to say "I know most of my colleagues think it's odd, but my religious belief tells me this and I'm very committed to my religion." I think that would have led to his removal as LD leader but he'd have retained more respect.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42638420
0 -
May is undoubtedly determined. But she is also deluded. There is no Commons majority for anything. That’s why No Deal remains the default, with Remain vía referendum the only other realistic possibility.HYUFD said:
At the moment it is actually Deal plus Customs Union which is closer to a Commons majority than either No Deal or EUref2 as the indicative votes showed and May is still determined to get her Deal through without a referendum.SouthamObserver said:Number one on the CUK list for the West Midlands seems to be Stephen Dorrell. So I’ll be voting Green. More broadly, events have overtaken CUK. Realistically, from here the Brexit path is either No Deal or a referendum with Remain on the ballot. The former looks more likely than the latter, but only just. As per Martin Kettle, the party it all hinges on is Labour:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/no-soft-brexit-no-deal-revoke-vote
0 -
Granted - but as far as the Euro elections are concerned, that's fairly irrelevant. The significance is the remain total.nichomar said:
The attitude being shown to the lib dems by change shows how out of touch they are and undeserving of any lib dem votes. To publicly seek to take over the lib dems is crass and shortsightedNigelb said:
I think this a decent point.The_Taxman said:I think the opposite to the thread header. If CUK had stood in the local elections and got zero seats that would have been a poor platform for the EU elections. They have kept their powder dry and resources for the real battle. I might well vote LD in the locals but CUK in the EU elections if they happen.
The significant number in the Euro elections for political purposes is the total of remain and leave votes, rather than that of elected MEPs.
The total of LD, CHUK and Green, can be counted as clear and obvious remain votes. Labour is remainer-ish in terms of its voters (and leaver-ish in terms of its leader), so hard to know how precisely to count its Euro election vote.
The Tories are far more a party of leave than Labour are of remain - and the other two clearly parties of Leave and little else.
As Alastair points out, while Change UK are improvising as they go along, and not making a very good job of competing for electoral votes, they have nonetheless had a significant effect on politics. I don't think many will disagree that going to war with the LibDems is pointless and counterproductive.0 -
Sounds like Remainers have a problem associating with Leavers, but not the reverse.Sean_F said:
Would you say that rejoicing at the deaths of older voters since 2016 is the sign of being a nice person?OnlyLivingBoy said:
I am serious, sorry. The point I am making is that people may feel like they don't want to be friends with some of the kind of people who voted leave, and I can sympathise with that. Look at the big pro-NickPalmer said:
Top trolling, unless you're serious. I don't think there's much correlation myself, except that Remain is more urban and middle-class, which one may like or not according to personal preference.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But isn't it quite possible that the average Remainer is a nicer person than the average Leaver, and so this survey captures a rational response not bias on the part of those nasty Remainers? Of course I may just be exhibiting this bias myself, but I would cite a couple of pieces of evidence that I think are supportive. First, compare and contrast the behaviour of protesters for the two sides at recent protests in London. Second, take a look at the constellation of views that correlate with support for Leave, eg on race, sexuality, the death penalty.ExiledInScotland said:I know. Brexit has induced hysteria in otherwise sensible people. An interesting UnHerd article today made this point very well. "Rather than assessing things rationally, and engaging with those who hold different points of view, people cling to comfort blankets, such as catastrophising, distancing and emotional reasoning."
https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-remainers-lost-perspective/
Having said this I would probably put myself in the 70% as I am sure there must be one or two Leavers who are OK. I don't know any Leavers though so it's hard to say for certain.
Remain march in London, which was totally peaceful and good humoured, would there be any objective reason not to be friends with any of those people? Contrast with some of the people protesting for Leave, and the way they have harassed MPs. A Leaver killed an MP. There have been multiple death threats. Would you want these people as your friend? Is it not revealing that the violence and threats have all been on one side?
Personally I wouldn't be friends with homophobes and racists, for instance, and while not all Leavers are homophobes and racists most homophobes and racists are Leavers. If this makes me urban and middle class then sorry, I am too busy eating my avocado toast to give a fuck.
There are horrid people on the Leave side, but they exist on your side of the argument, too.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-remainers-more-bothered-by-differing-views-in-family-poll-shows-h6kh2vrp70 -
Nick Timothy calls for the Tories to officially rebrand as Little Englanders
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1121298098041622529?s=200 -
I dont think she's deluded. I think she's weak and indecisive, so keeps trying the same hopeless things out of desperation.SouthamObserver said:
May is undoubtedly determined. But she is also deluded. There is no Commons majority for anything. That’s why No Deal remains the default, with Remain vía referendum the only other realistic possibility.HYUFD said:
At the moment it is actually Deal plus Customs Union which is closer to a Commons majority than either No Deal or EUref2 as the indicative votes showed and May is still determined to get her Deal through without a referendum.SouthamObserver said:Number one on the CUK list for the West Midlands seems to be Stephen Dorrell. So I’ll be voting Green. More broadly, events have overtaken CUK. Realistically, from here the Brexit path is either No Deal or a referendum with Remain on the ballot. The former looks more likely than the latter, but only just. As per Martin Kettle, the party it all hinges on is Labour:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/no-soft-brexit-no-deal-revoke-vote0 -
Thete are still a billion Catholics worldwide, I would guess there are not a billion ideological Communists worldwideNickPalmer said:FPT from Axiomatic last thread (I'd said that people should admit their past views without apology, and either regret them, defend them or simply calmly explain they'd moved on, giving my Communist past as an example)::
--------
Bravely said, but imagine if your past was not communist, but Catholic, and you had therefore expressed mainstream 20th century Catholic views on homosexuality? That they are sinners destined to burn in hell? That wouldn't look so good now and you might have to resign, it's a lottery, essentially
---------
I think that's another good example (and interesting that being a former orthodox Catholic is seen as more embarrassing than being a former Communist). I think that in that case opinion has moved so far that "defend it" is not a viable option, but I'd probably be OK with an MP who said they used to think that as a regular churchgoer but they've realised it was quite wrong.
But you do need to decide what your view is and stick up for it. Tim Farron's public agonising over whether being gay was a sin just exasperated everyone. As he now recognises, it'd have been less bad to say "I know most of my colleagues think it's odd, but my religious belief tells me this and I'm very committed to my religion." I think that would have led to his removal as LD leader but he'd have retained more respect.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/426384200
