politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Cooper-Letwin has probably killed Brexit

justin124 said:

Is it my imagination or am I correct in my sense that the Grand National is now run much later in the day than was formerly the case? I seem to remember the race taking place fairly early in the afternoon - circa 3pm - rather than 5.30.

williamglenn said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Recidivist said:

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

geoffw said:

another_richard said:

Benpointer said:

another_richard said:

rottenborough said:

"the Prime Minister and her advisers have pursued an approach that will now be used in university courses on international relations as a textbook case of how not to negotiate."

Goodwin in the Telegraph

Yet they got the agreement.

Its our politicians who don't want it.

May failed hugely to negotiate support in the HoC.

True but she can't be blamed that the ERG meekly supported what she was doing and then had their tantrum when the negotiation was complete.

They should have opposed May from 2016 onwards if they wanted their 100% Hard Brexit rather than May's 80% Hard Brexit.

But, of course, back in 2016 they would have been cheering May's Deal to the rafters.

The Mansionhouse speech was nothing like how the WA turned out.

It was a big mistake pandering to her nutters when she should have been doing the opposite

Especially when the country was so divided. After all Leave's majority wasn't much more than marginal.

Exactly so. And that should have been the first item on the leavers' agenda. How do you build the support for such a huge and hazardous project?

For some of us it was. Then the Tory party chose May as leader and any chance of compromise went up in smoke

You don't think the xenophobic campaign had anything to do with it?

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Recidivist said:

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

geoffw said:

another_richard said:

Benpointer said:

another_richard said:

rottenborough said:

"the Prime Minister and her advisers have pursued an approach that will now be used in university courses on international relations as a textbook case of how not to negotiate."

Goodwin in the Telegraph

Yet they got the agreement.

Its our politicians who don't want it.

May failed hugely to negotiate support in the HoC.

True but she can't be blamed that the ERG meekly supported what she was doing and then had their tantrum when the negotiation was complete.

They should have opposed May from 2016 onwards if they wanted their 100% Hard Brexit rather than May's 80% Hard Brexit.

But, of course, back in 2016 they would have been cheering May's Deal to the rafters.

The Mansionhouse speech was nothing like how the WA turned out.

It was a big mistake pandering to her nutters when she should have been doing the opposite

Especially when the country was so divided. After all Leave's majority wasn't much more than marginal.

Exactly so. And that should have been the first item on the leavers' agenda. How do you build the support for such a huge and hazardous project?

For some of us it was. Then the Tory party chose May as leader and any chance of compromise went up in smoke

You don't think the xenophobic campaign had anything to do with it?

Nope I just think that is an excuse from sore losers who want to find any way they can to overturn the referendum result. Why try and build bridges with someone like Meeks when he will spit in your face. I am talking about reaching out to reasonable people not lunatic fanatics like those trying to overturn the result.

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

justin124 said:

Is it my imagination or am I correct in my sense that the Grand National is now run much later in the day than was formerly the case? I seem to remember the race taking place fairly early in the afternoon - circa 3pm - rather than 5.30.

They weren't ready so they asked for an extension.

Before going round and round in circles, jumping invented obstacles, until every other choice had fallen and one passed the post.

Black_Rook said:

One of the things that will interest me about the next General Election is whether, should Mr Herdson transpire to be correct and Brexit ends up never happening, there is any significant decrease in turnout.

It's often said that, for many people, the referendum represented the first time in their lives that they believed that their vote actually counted for something. This is particularly thought to be the case for less well-off voters, particularly those in Northern constituencies with enormous Labour majorities, but actually I can identify with them as well. I'm a comfortably off voter in a southern English town where the local Conservative MP, and Conservative control of both the County and District Council (not that councils matter much anyway,) would all survive a nuclear holocaust. I had no strong feelings about the poll on the change of the voting system either, and therefore the EU referendum did genuinely feel like the first and only time I was ever consulted in a meaningful way about any political decision.

I voted to leave the EU and, if Mr Herdson is right (which he may well be) and Parliament is effectively given as much can-kicking time as it wants to wriggle out of the decision altogether, then we're not going to. Having previously been a civic duty voter who traipsed down to the polling station to wield the stubby pencil every year or two, I have now drawn the logical conclusion that voting at all - for anything related to the state, anyway - is a futile exercise and no longer worth the bother. Indeed, it never really was. I'm a trade union member and will keep participating in ballots that they organise, but as regards anything to do with the state, it's over. My polling card for next month's locals is already in the shredding pile, and if I end up getting one for the Europeans then it will follow.

It makes me wonder how many more people will have drawn similar conclusions? I'm given to understand that the by-election turnout on Thursday wasn't so bad, so perhaps I'm the only one? It's quite possible that, in a few years' time, everything will have gone back to how it was and all that has transpired between 2016 and now will be naught but an increasingly distant, half-remembered nightmare. Whatever. It's just a spectator sport, after all.

another_richard said:

kinabalu said:

another_richard said:

Certainly - the future relationship was always going to be 'up for grabs' in future years just as anything government does is dependent upon the prevailing political view in future years.

And this is one of the mistakes of the ERG mindset - having a crash out No Deal doesn't guarantee the UK being out of the EU forever but rather increases the risks of rejoining quickly if things go wrong.

What May's Deal does is allow an orderly exit and creates a starting point towards the Hard level of Brexit.

It does. And if they have confidence in their vision they ought to be going for it. Get out, diverge over the years and decades to come, based on events, trends, elections etc. Took us nearly half a century to integrate this far, why assume that the opposite should take less than 5 years. Seems a bit silly. And one thing is absolutely certain, if you don't get out you do not diverge at all. We are not going through this again.

Exactly.

Instead imbeciles like Mogg thought that Brexit was an Event rather than a Process.

Recidivist said:

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

justin124 said:

Is it my imagination or am I correct in my sense that the Grand National is now run much later in the day than was formerly the case? I seem to remember the race taking place fairly early in the afternoon - circa 3pm - rather than 5.30.

They weren't ready so they asked for an extension.

Before going round and round in circles, jumping invented obstacles, until every other choice had fallen and one passed the post.

very good

dyedwoolie said:

OldKingCole said:

dyedwoolie said:

Benpointer said:

Blimey, yesterday it was alleged Australian anglo-phobia, today whether it's ethical to eat meat.

You never know what filling you're going to get in your Brexit sandwich with PB!

I can go on about restoration of the Wuffingas kingdom of east Anglia if you like, I'm probably overdue

Where would you find the descendants of the kings? Or would we start gain with a newly convened Witan?

Oh a newly convened Witan. Let the fittest rule.
As for someone's suggestion of the Son of Wotan SeanT, hes disqualified by being a pasty munching peninsular boy. Wrong arse end of the island

justin124 said:

Is it my imagination or am I correct in my sense that the Grand National is now run much later in the day than was formerly the case? I seem to remember the race taking place fairly early in the afternoon - circa 3pm - rather than 5.30.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

williamglenn said:

another_richard said:

kinabalu said:

another_richard said:

Certainly - the future relationship was always going to be 'up for grabs' in future years just as anything government does is dependent upon the prevailing political view in future years.

And this is one of the mistakes of the ERG mindset - having a crash out No Deal doesn't guarantee the UK being out of the EU forever but rather increases the risks of rejoining quickly if things go wrong.

What May's Deal does is allow an orderly exit and creates a starting point towards the Hard level of Brexit.

It does. And if they have confidence in their vision they ought to be going for it. Get out, diverge over the years and decades to come, based on events, trends, elections etc. Took us nearly half a century to integrate this far, why assume that the opposite should take less than 5 years. Seems a bit silly. And one thing is absolutely certain, if you don't get out you do not diverge at all. We are not going through this again.

Exactly.

Instead imbeciles like Mogg thought that Brexit was an Event rather than a Process.

It's the flip side of seeing the EU as an oppressive superstate. They thought Brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin wall.

The fall of the Berlin wall took at least 2 years!!

williamglenn said:

another_richard said:

kinabalu said:

another_richard said:

Certainly - the future relationship was always going to be 'up for grabs' in future years just as anything government does is dependent upon the prevailing political view in future years.

And this is one of the mistakes of the ERG mindset - having a crash out No Deal doesn't guarantee the UK being out of the EU forever but rather increases the risks of rejoining quickly if things go wrong.

What May's Deal does is allow an orderly exit and creates a starting point towards the Hard level of Brexit.

It does. And if they have confidence in their vision they ought to be going for it. Get out, diverge over the years and decades to come, based on events, trends, elections etc. Took us nearly half a century to integrate this far, why assume that the opposite should take less than 5 years. Seems a bit silly. And one thing is absolutely certain, if you don't get out you do not diverge at all. We are not going through this again.

Exactly.

Instead imbeciles like Mogg thought that Brexit was an Event rather than a Process.

It's the flip side of seeing the EU as an oppressive superstate. They thought Brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin wall.

Recidivist said:

williamglenn said:

another_richard said:

kinabalu said:

another_richard said:

Certainly - the future relationship was always going to be 'up for grabs' in future years just as anything government does is dependent upon the prevailing political view in future years.

And this is one of the mistakes of the ERG mindset - having a crash out No Deal doesn't guarantee the UK being out of the EU forever but rather increases the risks of rejoining quickly if things go wrong.

What May's Deal does is allow an orderly exit and creates a starting point towards the Hard level of Brexit.

It does. And if they have confidence in their vision they ought to be going for it. Get out, diverge over the years and decades to come, based on events, trends, elections etc. Took us nearly half a century to integrate this far, why assume that the opposite should take less than 5 years. Seems a bit silly. And one thing is absolutely certain, if you don't get out you do not diverge at all. We are not going through this again.

Exactly.

Instead imbeciles like Mogg thought that Brexit was an Event rather than a Process.

It's the flip side of seeing the EU as an oppressive superstate. They thought Brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin wall.

Only with barriers being put up rather than pulled down.

Norm said:

Black_Rook said:

One of the things that will interest me about the next General Election is whether, should Mr Herdson transpire to be correct and Brexit ends up never happening, there is any significant decrease in turnout.

It's often said that, for many people, the referendum represented the first time in their lives that they believed that their vote actually counted for something. This is particularly thought to be the case for less well-off voters, particularly those in Northern constituencies with enormous Labour majorities, but actually I can identify with them as well. I'm a comfortably off voter in a southern English town where the local Conservative MP, and Conservative control of both the County and District Council (not that councils matter much anyway,) would all survive a nuclear holocaust. I had no strong feelings about the poll on the change of the voting system either, and therefore the EU referendum did genuinely feel like the first and only time I was ever consulted in a meaningful way about any political decision.

I voted to leave the EU and, if Mr Herdson is right (which he may well be) and Parliament is effectively given as much can-kicking time as it wants to wriggle out of the decision altogether, then we're not going to. Having previously been a civic duty voter who traipsed down to the polling station to wield the stubby pencil every year or two, I have now drawn the logical conclusion that voting at all - for anything related to the state, anyway - is a futile exercise and no longer worth the bother. Indeed, it never really was. I'm a trade union member and will keep participating in ballots that they organise, but as regards anything to do with the state, it's over. My polling card for next month's locals is already in the shredding pile, and if I end up getting one for the Europeans then it will follow.

It makes me wonder how many more people will have drawn similar conclusions? I'm given to understand that the by-election turnout on Thursday wasn't so bad, so perhaps I'm the only one? It's quite possible that, in a few years' time, everything will have gone back to how it was and all that has transpired between 2016 and now will be naught but an increasingly distant, half-remembered nightmare. Whatever. It's just a spectator sport, after all.

Unfortunately that plays straight into the hands of those who regard the referendum result as something that has to be overturned whatever and how ever long it might take. They literally don't care if the wrong sort of people in their eyes are disillusioned and opt out.

geoffw said:

Recidivist said:

geoffw said:

Recidivist said:

williamglenn said:

another_richard said:

kinabalu said:

another_richard said:

Certainly - the future relationship was always going to be 'up for grabs' in future years just as anything government does is dependent upon the prevailing political view in future years.

And this is one of the mistakes of the ERG mindset - having a crash out No Deal doesn't guarantee the UK being out of the EU forever but rather increases the risks of rejoining quickly if things go wrong.

What May's Deal does is allow an orderly exit and creates a starting point towards the Hard level of Brexit.

It does. And if they have confidence in their vision they ought to be going for it. Get out, diverge over the years and decades to come, based on events, trends, elections etc. Took us nearly half a century to integrate this far, why assume that the opposite should take less than 5 years. Seems a bit silly. And one thing is absolutely certain, if you don't get out you do not diverge at all. We are not going through this again.

Exactly.

Instead imbeciles like Mogg thought that Brexit was an Event rather than a Process.

It's the flip side of seeing the EU as an oppressive superstate. They thought Brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin wall.

Only with barriers being put up rather than pulled down.

Yes, by the EU.

The EU are behind Brexit? I think you are a little confused.

Who then is going to put the barriers up?

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

justin124 said:

Is it my imagination or am I correct in my sense that the Grand National is now run much later in the day than was formerly the case? I seem to remember the race taking place fairly early in the afternoon - circa 3pm - rather than 5.30.

They weren't ready so they asked for an extension.

Before going round and round in circles, jumping invented obstacles, until every other choice had fallen and one passed the post.

very good

Would have been better if I'd remembered the fences are made of dead wood that gets knocked off at every circuit.

logical_song said:

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

ydoethur said:

Recidivist said:

justin124 said:

Is it my imagination or am I correct in my sense that the Grand National is now run much later in the day than was formerly the case? I seem to remember the race taking place fairly early in the afternoon - circa 3pm - rather than 5.30.

They weren't ready so they asked for an extension.

Before going round and round in circles, jumping invented obstacles, until every other choice had fallen and one passed the post.

very good

Would have been better if I'd remembered the fences are made of dead wood that gets knocked off at every circuit.

Mrs May's deal respects the result, but ERG and DUP vote against it. Nobody wants No Deal crash out Brexit.

brokenwheel said:

kinabalu said:

another_richard said:

Certainly - the future relationship was always going to be 'up for grabs' in future years just as anything government does is dependent upon the prevailing political view in future years.

And this is one of the mistakes of the ERG mindset - having a crash out No Deal doesn't guarantee the UK being out of the EU forever but rather increases the risks of rejoining quickly if things go wrong.

What May's Deal does is allow an orderly exit and creates a starting point towards the Hard level of Brexit.

It does. And if they have confidence in their vision they ought to be going for it. Get out, diverge over the years and decades to come, based on events, trends, elections etc. Took us nearly half a century to integrate this far, why assume that the opposite should take less than 5 years. Seems a bit silly. And one thing is absolutely certain, if you don't get out you do not diverge at all. We are not going through this again.

This is absolute nonsense, it should be pretty clear by now our political class has absolutely no intention of diverging unless it is forced.

hamiltonace said:

It is not often that Glasgow is considered part of the cosmopolitan, metropolitan elite!! Through the elections and over the last few years Glasgow has remained a hub of remain. Not quite at the level of Edinburgh but still solidly 2/3 or more wishing to stay in the EU.

It is very hard now to envisage a scenario where Scotland will not stay close to the EU. In the case of a hard Brexit then a rapid move to independence and re-joining is the most likely route. Following the WA route and the election of someone like Boris to replace Maybot and implement the new agreement with Europe may well have the same impact.

Without Scotland, England will become more geared towards Brexit and divergence on Europe may become wider reducing the likelihood of Scotland fully integrating with England again.
The next few weeks are really the last chance to save the Union in my opinion. I hope May understands this fully.

Theuniondivvie said:

UK's new national security strategy unveiled.

https://twitter.com/kriekstina/status/1114211350153179136

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

williamglenn said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Recidivist said:

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

geoffw said:

another_richard said:

Benpointer said:

another_richard said:

rottenborough said:

"the Prime Minister and her advisers have pursued an approach that will now be used in university courses on international relations as a textbook case of how not to negotiate."

Goodwin in the Telegraph

Yet they got the agreement.

Its our politicians who don't want it.

May failed hugely to negotiate support in the HoC.

True but she can't be blamed that the ERG meekly supported what she was doing and then had their tantrum when the negotiation was complete.

They should have opposed May from 2016 onwards if they wanted their 100% Hard Brexit rather than May's 80% Hard Brexit.

But, of course, back in 2016 they would have been cheering May's Deal to the rafters.

The Mansionhouse speech was nothing like how the WA turned out.

It was a big mistake pandering to her nutters when she should have been doing the opposite

Especially when the country was so divided. After all Leave's majority wasn't much more than marginal.

Exactly so. And that should have been the first item on the leavers' agenda. How do you build the support for such a huge and hazardous project?

For some of us it was. Then the Tory party chose May as leader and any chance of compromise went up in smoke

You don't think the xenophobic campaign had anything to do with it?

Nope I just think that is an excuse from sore losers who want to find any way they can to overturn the referendum result. Why try and build bridges with someone like Meeks when he will spit in your face. I am talking about reaching out to reasonable people not lunatic fanatics like those trying to overturn the result.

"Why did the losers not collaborate with us to deny the winners what we promised them?"

It's contemptible and always was.

You are talking even more gibberish than usual William. And I thought that was almost impossible.

https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/740589926450860032
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/741363396550000640

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

Benpointer said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

No it's a reason to not try it out

What, you think you will win a Ref2 so you don't want to have one? Why don't you just write the result yourself.

Benpointer said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

No it's a reason to not try it out

What, you think you will win a Ref2 so you don't want to have one? Why don't you just write the result yourself.

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community needs a new saint.

another_richard said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community needs a new saint.

Fringe nobody to fringe nobody would be more accurate.

Does Hannan support the WDA ?

Foxy said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community needs a new saint.

Brexit is a political graveyard, and the idiots keep digging their own graves.

At least we will see the end of national referendums. No one will want to repeat the exercise.

geoffw said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

No it's a reason to not try it out

What, you think you will win a Ref2 so you don't want to have one? Why don't you just write the result yourself.

What on earth would be the question on Ref2?

nico67 said:

Any ref has to have an ERG type Brexit otherwise the betrayal narrative will go through the roof . Now that they trashed Mays deal and people have been told it’s a disaster and many believe it there has to be a different deal on offer .

The question should be Remain or Leave .

A two stage referendum held a week apart .

If the public vote to leave then you then should have two choices

Canada plus

Mays deal

But the ERG will have to put out a plan and explain their solution on NI in terms of Canada .

Norm said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community need a new saint.

If there are EU elections will Hannan stand again and more interestingly would he be re-elected? I am not sure very many Tory supporters will even be voting for their party let alone dipping into their pockets for the campaign or knocking on doors.

Floater said:

Foxy said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community needs a new saint.

Brexit is a political graveyard, and the idiots keep digging their own graves.

At least we will see the end of national referendums. No one will want to repeat the exercise.

Excellent, no 2nd referendum then

isam said:

Norm said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community need a new saint.

If there are EU elections will Hannan stand again and more interestingly would he be re-elected? I am not sure very many Tory supporters will even be voting for their party let alone dipping into their pockets for the campaign or knocking on doors.

On Oddschecker it is difficult to find prices for the EU Elections. Someone posted Ladbrokes odds yesterday which had the two main parties front of the betting... I am not sure they should be, but maybe haven't thought it through properly

Surely these EU elections are the free-est of free hits against the never less popular establishment?

Norm said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community need a new saint.

If there are EU elections will Hannan stand again and more interestingly would he be re-elected? I am not sure very many Tory supporters will even be voting for their party let alone dipping into their pockets for the campaign or knocking on doors.

ydoethur said:

another_richard said:

ydoethur said:

geoffw said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

No it's a reason to not try it out

What, you think you will win a Ref2 so you don't want to have one? Why don't you just write the result yourself.

What on earth would be the question on Ref2?

Which is more important, the economy or our political system?

Although TBH that was the de facto question in the first one. It's just that most people didn't expect the answer we got.

There's a certain type of right-wing Leaver who thinks bringing down the welfare state would be a feature not a bug of Brexit.

There's a certain type of left-wing Leaver who thinks bringing down capitalism would be a feature not a bug of Brexit.

Conversely there's a certain type of Remainer who thinks discouraging the proles from ever voting again would be a feature not a bug of Revoking Brexit.

So you're basically saying we lose the second whatever happens?

In fairness, that's an extremely persuasive view.

brendan16 said:

Norm said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I've looked & looked for the words taken out of context which means wee Dan has been misinterpreted, but danged if I can see it.

https://twitter.com/FrankmcnallyIT/status/1114102594866241536

Many a reputation has been destroyed by Brexit, but surely none more so than Hannan's. He's gone from 'rock star' to national figure of fun in a couple of years. The Leave community need a new saint.

If there are EU elections will Hannan stand again and more interestingly would he be re-elected? I am not sure very many Tory supporters will even be voting for their party let alone dipping into their pockets for the campaign or knocking on doors.

Hannan was top of the Tory list in 2014 in the south east region - the largest region with 11 MEPs. I expect if he wants to stand again he will be re-elected.

People will vote Tory - or not - and they would only need 8 per cent of the vote to win one seat. Frankly the only south east region MEP the majority of voters could name is Nigel Farage - its a party vote not a personal one.

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

No it's a reason to not try it out

What, you think you will win a Ref2 so you don't want to have one? Why don't you just write the result yourself.

There is no reason to have one no matter what I think the result would be.

If Remain had won the last one I would be campaigning for a party to put another one/leaving without one in their manifesto, but wouldnt expect one because of the opinion of a panel of political geeks

So you believe in enacting the will of the people, but are opposed to establishing what that will actually is.

Not at all, it was established in June 2016, after we were promised the result would be final.

I see, and you never change your mind on any subject, not even after three years during which your knowledge of that subject had increased tenfold? And even if you haven't changed your mind where is the harm in asking?

As for "We were told, " you must not believe smarmy old Etonians who con you into thinking they can rewrite the constitution by press release. They can't.

It's not even worth arguing about. Every major politician (most of whom were campaigning for Remain) said that the 2016 decision was final and there would be no going back, and so it is.

The advantage of living under the rule of law, as we do, is that that makes no difference. Try Africa if you want the law to be rewritten on the fly by Big Men giving interviews on the telly.

another_richard said:

Recidivist said:

Leavers just continue to lie and lie. This is way more damaging to democracy than rerunning a vote.

https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114500236150550529

My lies good and their lies bad.

And that's why compromise becomes ever more difficult.

kinabalu said:

brokenwheel said:

This is absolute nonsense, it should be pretty clear by now our political class has absolutely no intention of diverging unless it is forced.

The Conservative Party is nothing if not a part of the political class.

So pass the WA, leave, choose a Brexiteer leader, win a GE with max divergence in the manifesto.

Robert is your father's brother.

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Ishmael_Z said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

Benpointer said:

isam said:

The Opinion poll panels were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The MPs were Remain in 2015 and haven't changed their minds

The voters at the 2016 referendum were Leave and we don't know if they've changed their minds

But because the first two are unchanged, even though they were proven to be unrepresentative, people say the third is now Remain

Well, let's try it and find out.

No it's a reason to not try it out

What, you think you will win a Ref2 so you don't want to have one? Why don't you just write the result yourself.

There is no reason to have one no matter what I think the result would be.

If Remain had won the last one I would be campaigning for a party to put another one/leaving without one in their manifesto, but wouldnt expect one because of the opinion of a panel of political geeks

So you believe in enacting the will of the people, but are opposed to establishing what that will actually is.

Not at all, it was established in June 2016, after we were promised the result would be final.

I see, and you never change your mind on any subject, not even after three years during which your knowledge of that subject had increased tenfold? And even if you haven't changed your mind where is the harm in asking?

As for "We were told, " you must not believe smarmy old Etonians who con you into thinking they can rewrite the constitution by press release. They can't.

It's not even worth arguing about. Every major politician (most of whom were campaigning for Remain) said that the 2016 decision was final and there would be no going back, and so it is.

The advantage of living under the rule of law, as we do, is that that makes no difference. Try Africa if you want the law to be rewritten on the fly by Big Men giving interviews on the telly.

Just get over it

~I "got over it" on 24 June 2016, because I didn't then and don't now see much to choose between remaining and a properly organised brexit. It's just that it now seems impossible for the latter to happen. So if your point is that I am just a disappointed europhile, it fails.