politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What four years of Govey as EdSec did to the teaching vote
Comments
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Bonar Law was CanadianDecrepitJohnL said:
Who was the last foreign-born Prime Minister? Wasn't one of the early 20th Century PMs born in Canada? New Zealand-born Bryan Gould was an unsuccessful contender for the Labour leadership 40-ish years ago.Casino_Royale said:
Suggesting Jean-Claude Juncker should be PM of the UK sounds like a step too far.williamglenn said:
People have heard of Jean-Claude Juncker, and his current job will be finished soon.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
Even for you.0 -
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Perhaps the media are under reporting restrictions?MikeL said:Jury retired this morning to consider its verdict in trial of Duckenfield and others re Hillsborough.
Seems surprising that there has been very little media coverage of the trial.0 -
Not just them, true, but they were the ones whose absence in 2016 really shifted the dial IMO.OldKingCole said:
Not just the Labour activists.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
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As was accurately diagnosed and described by Theresa May in her oft-misunderstood nasty party speech.Sean_F said:
It is as it was in the 1980's and 1990's.DavidL said:On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.
What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.
If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.0 -
No. Taxpayers pay for the service via taxation. Not all parents are taxpayers and not all taxpayers are parents. Those of us without kids don't generally mind because we are doing it for the kids and society as a whole. I'm sure as hell not doing it for the benefit of the parents.TGOHF said:
Parents require a service - their children to be educated.Nigelb said:
So you believe schools are there primarily for the benefit of parents ?TGOHF said:
Teachers are still under the misapprehension that schools are for their benefit not parents.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:Speaking as a teacher, it appeared to me that Gove was allowed to be a complete loose cannon by Cameron, who didn't care about state education.
Many of the issues we face now are as a result of his short term thinking and policymaking via headlines in the Telegraph. Very little was thought through, and we now have a recruitment disaster due to the fracturing and over complication of Initial Teacher Training routes by Gove.
The obsession with constant qualification reform is a feature of all Education Ministers, but his attempt at a concurrent reform of GCSE and A Level made a lot of pointless work for people.
On another note, the notion that teachers are all a load of raging marxists may be a favourite of the Daily Mail, but is not borne out by my experience in reality. I've known as many Tory teachers as I have Labour voters. I used to be a very woolly liberal on social policy, until I worked in safeguarding, and saw the behaviour of some adults (despite what I thought, I'd clearly led a very sheltered life until then). I also did some work with Halfon when he was Skills Minister, and was impressed by him.
Teachers hated the switch from being assessed on "value add" rather than "level of attainment".
As a parent , our primary school had rested on it's fat laurels for too long and got a mighty shock when OFSTED came a calling post Gove - the Head Teacher stood down and we got a far better replacement.
I was under the misapprehension that they were something to do with education.
Parents pay for the service via taxation.0 -
It's a massive failure of May who has both a social and economic policy not really different, if not less market orientated than that of Brown and Blair. A heavily interventionist administration combining hectoring and regulation on both economic and social measures.Casino_Royale said:DavidL said:On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.
What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.
If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.
Yes, I’m expecting a drubbing in the not so distant future.DavidL said:On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.
What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.
If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.
The Conservatives have never looked totally secure in the last ten years, and i can feel the country moving Left in my gut, which the fundamentals in the underlying data suggest as well.0 -
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Benpointer said:
Not sure I concur. It assumes the ERG think the Deal is just about acceptable provided May is gone.
Yep. And the DUP are about a gnat's testicle away as well. As are a whole bundle of Labour MPs (less happily, but in preference to no deal).
This whole crisis is meaningless posturing. Clearly the deal should pass (it won't).
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I’m not aware of the details on that but they weren’t seen as distinctive countries in the early 20th century, but as very much British.DecrepitJohnL said:
Who was the last foreign-born Prime Minister? Wasn't one of the early 20th Century PMs born in Canada? New Zealand-born Bryan Gould was an unsuccessful contender for the Labour leadership 40-ish years ago.Casino_Royale said:
Suggesting Jean-Claude Juncker should be PM of the UK sounds like a step too far.williamglenn said:
People have heard of Jean-Claude Juncker, and his current job will be finished soon.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
Even for you.
And the UK and Canada shared a nationality code, even into the post WWII years.0 -
Heaven knows I am no fan of May's but surely Lidington unites people in bafflement that such a no mark has risen so high in our affairs. What has he ever done or said to generate even a smidgen of interest? Gove is a deeply marmite politician but at least you get the impression that he came into politics to try and change things, for good or ill.tpfkar said:
Lidington is a uniter and May is a divider. Whatever other qualities, we need something much more like him than her right now.DavidL said:
For me Lidington is May without the charisma and personal charm. As a stop gap to get us out of this mess just maybe but surely not as anything else.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
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It’s easy to forget that left-wing populism, and the election of Corbyn, easily preceded Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
The roots lie deeper.0 -
Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.0 -
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At last, the PD is empty meaningless intentions, nothing else. It binds no one to anything.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.0 -
Loads of people on the left, as well as on the right, consider that the system has failed for them.Casino_Royale said:
It’s easy to forget that left-wing populism, and the election of Corbyn, easily preceded Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
The roots lie deeper.0 -
I don't think so.FrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps the media are under reporting restrictions?MikeL said:Jury retired this morning to consider its verdict in trial of Duckenfield and others re Hillsborough.
Seems surprising that there has been very little media coverage of the trial.
There have been some reports - it's just they haven't been at all prominent.
eg Jury retires today - it's on the Sky Sports website but I can't see any mention on BBC News homepage.
Contrast with the Inquest and campaigning / decision to prosecute - several times this was the lead story on BBC TV News and website.
It is very curious.0 -
Tbh I am not sure what that will achieve.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.0 -
Totally O/t, but politics. Is there any news from the Newport W by election. Tory canvassers fleeing under a barrage of rubbish, for example?0
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Despite not actually doing so....Sean_F said:
Loads of people on the left, as well as on the right, consider that the system has failed for them.Casino_Royale said:
It’s easy to forget that left-wing populism, and the election of Corbyn, easily preceded Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
The roots lie deeper.0 -
It’s better, and it’s worse.Sean_F said:
It is as it was in the 1980's and 1990's.DavidL said:On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.
What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.
If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.
On the one hand, politics is more polarised on values now, not just the economic axis, and one party can’t dominate the whole mass media as New Labour did in the 1990s. That gives the Tories a level of base cover so they shouldn’t be wiped out.
On the other hand, the under 40s have shifted further to the sociocultural left, and have little capital. Nor are we getting richer anywhere near as fast as we did in the late 20th century, so making the Conservatives job much harder.
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On topic, the question is whether any other education secretary would have done better than Gove? Maybe teachers just get annoyed with the education secretary of whoever is in power.-1
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I sold a bit, I kept more and then I bought a bit back at a longer price because I don't think we've heard the last of this idea. His anonymity is his advantage in the eyes of some big beasts I'm sure, along the same lines that young cardinals vote for old popes.Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I had some very nice choices to make yesterday.kinabalu said:
Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
I hope you crystallized plenty.
How did you play it?0 -
Labour should [if they were intellectually honest] back the withdrawal agreement.Benpointer said:
Tbh I am not sure what that will achieve.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.
The withdrawal agreement includes a customs union and everything else they're asking for. There's zero reason for them to object to it.
Except of course they're opposing it because they hate the Tories and not because of anything to do with Brexit. Had Corbyn got the same deal they'd be backing it - and the Tories would be opposing it probably.0 -
What I have found remarkable is that Brexit has created a pro-EU movement in this country for the first time since the very early 70s. Both this march and the last one had large numbers of people seriously committed to the EU concept in ways I simply cannot recall in the last 40 years. As you say, had that happened before 2016 the result might have been very different. Instead we had the likes of Cameron going around saying that he understood why people disliked the EU but really, we were better in than out.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
A lot of it reminds me of the Indy ref. Better Together was led by people who were embarrassed to be British and mildly ashamed that we had a Tory government despite how Scotland had voted. Only in the final days with Brown and Ruth did we finally get some emotional drive for the Union. In the EU ref that emotional drive never came.0 -
Is the Letwin amendment expected to pass?0
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Lidington is not on the spectrum. You can't say that for certain with TMaytpfkar said:
Lidington is a uniter and May is a divider. Whatever other qualities, we need something much more like him than her right now.DavidL said:
For me Lidington is May without the charisma and personal charm. As a stop gap to get us out of this mess just maybe but surely not as anything else.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
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You expected Labour to bail out the Conservatives from putting the country in this position. It's a typical attempt to whitewash the appallingly reckless behaviour of your party.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
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The gap in the market seems to be for an economically left but socially conservative party. The revamped SDP are that, but they don't seem to get much publicity as they have no parliamentarians.Casino_Royale said:DavidL said:On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.
If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.
Yes, I’m expecting a drubbing in the not so distant future.DavidL said:On topic there was some interesting discussion of this at the weekend in relation to the London march which seemed to be largely comprised of middle class professionals who once would have been Tories and now aren't. Some of these statistics may well be down to the same tendency manifesting itself in the teaching profession.
What I think is clear is that 9 years of very tight public spending, if not actual austerity in most cases, with cuts in real wages and benefits for those in the public sector have left a long tail legacy of dislike/hatred for the Tories which they are going to find genuinely difficult to overcome. My own guess is that the extent of that damage has been hidden by the complete ineptitude of Corbyn and that Labour under a credible, electable leader may well be set for a Blair style annihilation of the Conservatives who have never managed to get a solid majority despite their success with the economy as a whole.
If this happens people will inevitably blame Brexit but I think the causes are much deeper. I hope sending Corbyn a get well soon card is on May's to do list. He is their only hope.
The Conservatives have never looked totally secure in the last ten years, and i can feel the country moving Left in my gut, which the fundamentals in the underlying data suggest as well.0 -
10 pm!IanB2 said:Amendments from 10pm onwards
Tired, peevish and peckish, blood sugar all over the place, alcohol coursing through the veins, head full of conspiracies fueled by 15 solid hours in the bubble - what sort of condition is that to be in as you decide the future of the nation?0 -
Don't rule out The SAJkinabalu said:
It's evolving as Hunt v Gove, I sense. With Johnson just still possible.Pulpstar said:On topic, I wonder if OGH is making the same error (Though I note the final section is more complmentary toward Gove than the graphic) that he has made wrt Biden's chances in the Democrat race. I think Gove is rightly one of the frontrunners (Though too short at the recent 7-2 I laid on Betfair), both he and Biden are in a different place to where they were a few years ago.
I'll confess that I'm not on Hunt at the longest odds I could be either as I mentally dismissed him with the fact he was a Tory health Sec. He too has a real chance now.0 -
If May had any confidence she'd say its MV3 or No Deal as we won't be extending past the elections so make up your mind Parliament.
But she doesn't, so she'll lose again. As she deserves to.0 -
Yes, makes sense.Philip_Thompson said:
Labour should [if they were intellectually honest] back the withdrawal agreement.Benpointer said:
Tbh I am not sure what that will achieve.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.
The withdrawal agreement includes a customs union and everything else they're asking for. There's zero reason for them to object to it.
Except of course they're opposing it because they hate the Tories and not because of anything to do with Brexit. Had Corbyn got the same deal they'd be backing it - and the Tories would be opposing it probably.
Would passing the WA but not the PD be sufficient for whichever bit of legislation requires the MV?0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
I think there's a problem with using that graph as a specifically anti-Give statistical set.
It could just as easily be read as the impact of so-called austerity after Brown's years of splurging money to build a client vote. Plus, saying nice things in opposition is a lot easier than making tough choices in office.0 -
FWIW I think Jeremy Corbyn will live to regret his photoshoot with the statue of Eric Morecambe as the People's March was taking place.0
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One term of teacher training was enough to open my eyes to the reality of teaching and send me scuttling back to an easy life of self-employment.Richard_Tyndall said:
This attitude really annoys me (Robin's not yours). There is a huge amount wrong with our education system and I do think it is now a very poor shadow of what it was in the past but that has bugger all to do with how much teacher's work.FeersumEnjineeya said:
You've clearly never tried teaching.RobinWiggs said:
Yes - it's appalling to have a graduate starting salary of £22/23k, annual pay progression, and 14 weeks of non-contact time a year. Boo hoo that there is some paper work and assessment of their value add to the children.FeersumEnjineeya said:
Gove's role in making teaching such an unrewarding profession that nobody wants to do it has led to a recruitment crisis so bad that some of my local schools are now closing on Friday afternoons. This is very much less welcome in homes around this part of the country.RobinWiggs said:I'd have said anyone who upsets the NUT and the teaching profession in general is probably doing a good job at Education.
Gove's return to a focus on standards, exams and "traditional" core subjects was welcome in many homes across the country.
That a tory wasn't welcomed by the payroll vote during a period of austerity, whilst trying to reform the system is hardly the headline of the century.
It's a wonder anyone wants it as a vocation isn't it.
It is certainly not a career I would choose for an easy life nor great riches. Also of course I don't have the temperament. I would probably have throttled half a dozen of the little darlings before the first week was out0 -
I imagine so. The WA is the only legally binding bit, the PD is a fluffy annex that we could cope without.Benpointer said:
Yes, makes sense.Philip_Thompson said:
Labour should [if they were intellectually honest] back the withdrawal agreement.Benpointer said:
Tbh I am not sure what that will achieve.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.
The withdrawal agreement includes a customs union and everything else they're asking for. There's zero reason for them to object to it.
Except of course they're opposing it because they hate the Tories and not because of anything to do with Brexit. Had Corbyn got the same deal they'd be backing it - and the Tories would be opposing it probably.
Would passing the WA but not the PD be sufficient for whichever bit of legislation requires the MV?
So Labour will ensure the WA dies too. Despite backing it in theory.0 -
Because more than any of us she had access to what the full impact of No Deal Brexit will be. My guess is she knows how damaging it would be for the country.Philip_Thompson said:If May had any confidence she'd say its MV3 or No Deal as we won't be extending past the elections so make up your mind Parliament.
But she doesn't, so she'll lose again. As she deserves to.0 -
Her government it seems will fall in such a situation. Delaying Brexit further will be catastrophic failure for the conservatives.Philip_Thompson said:If May had any confidence she'd say its MV3 or No Deal as we won't be extending past the elections so make up your mind Parliament.
But she doesn't, so she'll lose again. As she deserves to.0 -
If it does pass that will be yet another Etonian in the annals of Brexit: Cameron, Boris, JRM and now possibly Letwin. Brexit was won and lost on the playing fields of Eton.Benpointer said:Is the Letwin amendment expected to pass?
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I don't think you need to worry about Amber.Pulpstar said:I've taken him down to a similar red to Rudd in that book, who is still my biggest loser.
True green still due to Fred Done's generous terms at Totesport .
Her 'coloured woman' faux pas probably scored her a few brownie points with the members but not enough to counter the fatal disadvantage of being a Europhile.0 -
Tbf May has hardly reached out to them since becoming PM has she?Philip_Thompson said:
I imagine so. The WA is the only legally binding bit, the PD is a fluffy annex that we could cope without.Benpointer said:
Yes, makes sense.Philip_Thompson said:
Labour should [if they were intellectually honest] back the withdrawal agreement.Benpointer said:
Tbh I am not sure what that will achieve.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.
The withdrawal agreement includes a customs union and everything else they're asking for. There's zero reason for them to object to it.
Except of course they're opposing it because they hate the Tories and not because of anything to do with Brexit. Had Corbyn got the same deal they'd be backing it - and the Tories would be opposing it probably.
Would passing the WA but not the PD be sufficient for whichever bit of legislation requires the MV?
So Labour will ensure the WA dies too. Despite backing it in theory.0 -
Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?0
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To be fair, both May and Corbyn put their finger on a problem.Sean_F said:
Loads of people on the left, as well as on the right, consider that the system has failed for them.Casino_Royale said:
It’s easy to forget that left-wing populism, and the election of Corbyn, easily preceded Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
The roots lie deeper.
It pisses people off when they’re busting a gut to make ends meet and others, who often have little stake in the country, flaunt the cash and the fact the rules don’t apply to them, and don’t give a shit who cares otherwise and sometimes insult them if they do.
It’s the solution that’s hard.0 -
I think the BoE have a lot to answer for.Casino_Royale said:
To be fair, both May and Corbyn put their finger on a problem.Sean_F said:
Loads of people on the left, as well as on the right, consider that the system has failed for them.Casino_Royale said:
It’s easy to forget that left-wing populism, and the election of Corbyn, easily preceded Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
The roots lie deeper.
It pisses people off when they’re busting a gut to make ends meet and others, who often have little stake in the country, flaunt the cash and the fact the rules don’t apply to them, and don’t give a shit who cares otherwise and sometimes insult them if they do.
It’s the solution that’s hard.0 -
The happy couple. Does that look like a face asking for a slap?
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The iron law of politics in Britain is that there is always a way to blame the Labour Party.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
But I'm not sure the organisers would be particularly Labour. The hardcore remainers always seem to despair of the Labour Party.0 -
Just maybe if they were promised an early election and it was recognised that it will be for the next government, not this one, to determine what our relationship with the EU will be? There is nothing in the WA, or for that matter in the PD, which would prevent a Labour government seeking a permanent CU, for example.AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
I'm clutching at straws here, I recognise that.0 -
For the love of God please let Labour whip that one throughRichard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.0 -
Mr. Meeks, are you saying Corbyn isn't Wise?0
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Following the 2015 election which made the referendum pledge operative, I thought Remain would win easily partly because it had the support of much of the Conservative Party and of all the opposition parties except UKIP. Obviously (before Corbyn, of course) I expected Labour and the trade unions to be a very large part of that, as no doubt David Cameron did. However, the completely unexpected promotion of Corbyn from obscure Marxist relic backbencher to party leader put paid to that expectation. Saturday's march shows how significant that was.williamglenn said:You expected Labour to bail out the Conservatives from putting the country in this position. It's a typical attempt to whitewash the appallingly reckless behaviour of your party.
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I am puzzled as to why "aids", which should surely be "aides", is in capital letters in the lead, inevitably making people think of HIV. Surely PB is better than this?0
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It’s not an accident.AlastairMeeks said:FWIW I think Jeremy Corbyn will live to regret his photoshoot with the statue of Eric Morecambe as the People's March was taking place.
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failure to agree a trade deal which seems incredibly likely will result in a permanent CU as part of the backstop.DavidL said:
Just maybe if they were promised an early election and it was recognised that it will be for the next government, not this one, to determine what our relationship with the EU will be? There is nothing in the WA, or for that matter in the PD, which would prevent a Labour government seeking a permanent CU, for example.AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
I'm clutching at straws here, I recognise that.0 -
In the same way, the Scottish independence referendum revitalised the Scottish Conservatives, after years on the defensive.DavidL said:
What I have found remarkable is that Brexit has created a pro-EU movement in this country for the first time since the very early 70s. Both this march and the last one had large numbers of people seriously committed to the EU concept in ways I simply cannot recall in the last 40 years. As you say, had that happened before 2016 the result might have been very different. Instead we had the likes of Cameron going around saying that he understood why people disliked the EU but really, we were better in than out.Richard_Nabavi said:Regarding Saturday's march, which was very impressive, it must be admitted: I can't help feeling that if the Labour politicians and activists who played such a big role in organising it had put half as much effort into campaigning for Remain in 2016, we wouldn't have been in this mess.
A lot of it reminds me of the Indy ref. Better Together was led by people who were embarrassed to be British and mildly ashamed that we had a Tory government despite how Scotland had voted. Only in the final days with Brown and Ruth did we finally get some emotional drive for the Union. In the EU ref that emotional drive never came.0 -
Does he bring you sunshine?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, are you saying Corbyn isn't Wise?
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The pig is in the poke because the EU refuses to put it anywhere else.AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
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Thanks.AlastairMeeks said:
I sold a bit, I kept more and then I bought a bit back at a longer price because I don't think we've heard the last of this idea. His anonymity is his advantage in the eyes of some big beasts I'm sure, along the same lines that young cardinals vote for old popes.Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:
I had some very nice choices to make yesterday.kinabalu said:
Liddo was layable in size at 6 yesterday.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
I hope you crystallized plenty.
How did you play it?0 -
That would still mean trusting Theresa May. And no-one is going to do that these days.DavidL said:
Just maybe if they were promised an early election and it was recognised that it will be for the next government, not this one, to determine what our relationship with the EU will be? There is nothing in the WA, or for that matter in the PD, which would prevent a Labour government seeking a permanent CU, for example.AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
I'm clutching at straws here, I recognise that.
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Eureka.Richard_Nabavi said:Ah about time - from the Guardian live blog:
Theresa May is considering asking MPs to vote on the withdrawal agreement separately from the political declaration, Labour has revealed.0 -
OGH's phone's notorious predictive text, one imagines.IanB2 said:I am puzzled as to why "aids", which should surely be "aides", is in capital letters in the lead, inevitably making people think of HIV. Surely PB is better than this?
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The majority of Labour voters voted Remain. It was the Conservative vote that failed to support the position of their own leader, and wasn't going to be swung by Ed Miliband or whichever generic non-Marxist Labour leader you imagine having made a difference.Richard_Nabavi said:
Following the 2015 election which made the referendum pledge operative, I thought Remain would win easily partly because it had the support of much of the Conservative Party and of all the opposition parties except UKIP. Obviously (before Corbyn, of course) I expected Labour and the trade unions to be a very large part of that, as no doubt David Cameron did. However, the completely unexpected promotion of Corbyn from obscure Marxist relic backbencher to party leader put paid to that expectation. Saturday's march shows how significant that was.williamglenn said:You expected Labour to bail out the Conservatives from putting the country in this position. It's a typical attempt to whitewash the appallingly reckless behaviour of your party.
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Think I'd start on top of the head and work down.TrèsDifficile said:
The happy couple. Does that look like a face asking for a slap?0 -
The price must be an election.AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
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The withdrawal agreement is the de facto minimum needed to withdraw from the EU. Even if we left without a deal some close variant would be required by the EU before trade talks beganRichard_Nabavi said:
The pig is in the poke because the EU refuses to put it anywhere else.AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
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A Prime Minister with political skills would have realised her deal is lost and would be taking the opportunity to make good on Lidlington's promise and let the government lead an indicative vote process.
The fact that she has yielded the initiative and is potentially hours away from having MPs taking the initiative from her is surely confirmation that the weekend's plotters were right.0 -
Labour have said they have no issue with the WA...AlastairMeeks said:Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?
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The majority of Labour voters voted Remain, as you say. However, I think that majority would have been very considerably larger if the Labour leadership had been actively supporting Remain rather than (as is very clearly laid out in Tim Shipman's book) doing everything in their power to sabotage Will Straw's efforts.williamglenn said:The majority of Labour voters voted Remain. It was the Conservative vote that failed to support the position of their own leader, and wasn't going to be swung by Ed Miliband or whichever generic non-Marxist Labour leader you imagine having made a difference.
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I don't know whether an enthusiastic Labour campaign would have got Remain over the line.williamglenn said:
The majority of Labour voters voted Remain. It was the Conservative vote that failed to support the position of their own leader, and wasn't going to be swung by Ed Miliband or whichever generic non-Marxist Labour leader you imagine having made a difference.Richard_Nabavi said:
Following the 2015 election which made the referendum pledge operative, I thought Remain would win easily partly because it had the support of much of the Conservative Party and of all the opposition parties except UKIP. Obviously (before Corbyn, of course) I expected Labour and the trade unions to be a very large part of that, as no doubt David Cameron did. However, the completely unexpected promotion of Corbyn from obscure Marxist relic backbencher to party leader put paid to that expectation. Saturday's march shows how significant that was.williamglenn said:You expected Labour to bail out the Conservatives from putting the country in this position. It's a typical attempt to whitewash the appallingly reckless behaviour of your party.
Looking at the petition numbers by constituency, I don't think my MP, Gavin Shuker, has any hope of holding his seat.0 -
Jeremy does not do regrets, especially when he is on the verge of seeing another one of his great political aims coming to fruition.AlastairMeeks said:FWIW I think Jeremy Corbyn will live to regret his photoshoot with the statue of Eric Morecambe as the People's March was taking place.
There is actually an argument for saying that he and Nigel Farage are the most successful politicians of the last 30 years. And he more than Nigel. Not only is he going to get Brexit, he has also secured the far left's control of the Labour party.
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'ere we go0
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Mrs May is up on BBC Parliament0
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A lying cheating sneaky self seeking toerag more like.Casino_Royale said:Gove is very bright but he is only good in small doses. He has to be shuffled every couple of years because it just takes it too far and doesn’t know when to stop.
He also loves the drama and can’t help but plot.
But, he achieved interesting, considered and helpful change at Education, Justice and Environment and also was behind Brexit too.
You can’t deny he’s a haymaker.0 -
Doesn’t common market 2.0 give us all the economic benefits of EU membership without the political stuff , and freedom of labour rather than freedom of movement . Is it too good to be true? Do we retain independent control over tax policy for example ?0
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This doesn't sound good, or convincing.0
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"AIDS"? I presume you mean "aides"0
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If you call investing in schools "splurging money to build a client vote" what term do you use for splurging money to build a client vote?Morris_Dancer said:Good afternoon, everyone.
I think there's a problem with using that graph as a specifically anti-Give statistical set.
It could just as easily be read as the impact of so-called austerity after Brown's years of splurging money to build a client vote. Plus, saying nice things in opposition is a lot easier than making tough choices in office.0 -
The Conservative vote for Remain would have been dramatically higher if Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Theresa Villiers and Penny Mordaunt hadn't lied their way through the campaign while holding positions of power.Richard_Nabavi said:
The majority of Labour voters voted Remain, as you say. However, I think that majority would have been very considerably larger if the Labour leadership had been actively supporting Remain rather than (as is very clearly laid out in Tim Shipman's book) doing everything in their power to sabotage Will Straw's efforts.williamglenn said:The majority of Labour voters voted Remain. It was the Conservative vote that failed to support the position of their own leader, and wasn't going to be swung by Ed Miliband or whichever generic non-Marxist Labour leader you imagine having made a difference.
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I like himmalcolmg said:
A lying cheating sneaky self seeking toerag more like.Casino_Royale said:Gove is very bright but he is only good in small doses. He has to be shuffled every couple of years because it just takes it too far and doesn’t know when to stop.
He also loves the drama and can’t help but plot.
But, he achieved interesting, considered and helpful change at Education, Justice and Environment and also was behind Brexit too.
You can’t deny he’s a haymaker.
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This is like listening to the automated message you get when you try to telephone BT0
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That's also true. When have I ever said otherwise?williamglenn said:
The Conservative vote for Remain would have been dramatically higher if Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Theresa Villiers and Penny Mordaunt hadn't lied their way through the campaign while holding positions of power.Richard_Nabavi said:
The majority of Labour voters voted Remain, as you say. However, I think that majority would have been very considerably larger if the Labour leadership had been actively supporting Remain rather than (as is very clearly laid out in Tim Shipman's book) doing everything in their power to sabotage Will Straw's efforts.williamglenn said:The majority of Labour voters voted Remain. It was the Conservative vote that failed to support the position of their own leader, and wasn't going to be swung by Ed Miliband or whichever generic non-Marxist Labour leader you imagine having made a difference.
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oops no MV30
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so.....0
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Shes pulling the vote FFS0
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Given she has no charisma or personal charm , that is bad.DavidL said:
For me Lidington is May without the charisma and personal charm. As a stop gap to get us out of this mess just maybe but surely not as anything else.AlastairMeeks said:He is at least known. While David Lidington would be a fabulous payday for me, I do think the country is entitled to have a Prime Minister that it has actually heard of.
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ah so Letwin if no MV30
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TM just confirmed my point over the last few days
If we extend for a referendum or GE we have to hold EU elections.
Pity so many in the media have not picked up on this
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Without passing judgement on the target themselves, I think the word you are looking for is 'Backpfeifengesicht'TrèsDifficile said:
The happy couple. Does that look like a face asking for a slap?0 -
PM- MV3 doesn't have enough support - but still hoping it might
PM - doesn't welcome Letwin. Will oppose. But will provide government time for it.0 -
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It always was freedom of labour, not movement.. Just we dont have the systems (or culture) to enforce it.kjohnw said:Doesn’t common market 2.0 give us all the economic benefits of EU membership without the political stuff , and freedom of labour rather than freedom of movement . Is it too good to be true? Do we retain independent control over tax policy for example ?
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She is speaking way too quickly.0
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Why do you think he will make More Come?AlastairMeeks said:
Does he bring you sunshine?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, are you saying Corbyn isn't Wise?
… I'll get my coat.0 -
Long extension it is then.0
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PM- recognises the house will always oppose no deal.
So a longer extension and EU elections would be the alternative.0 -
Brexit seems to be effectively dead0
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I love you all really.0
