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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What four years of Govey as EdSec did to the teaching vote

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  • kjohnw said:

    Surely she has to resign now , she has failed the country her time is up. How can she carry on like this . There will be riots in the streets if brexit is betrayed . A new leader who will implement the referendum is needed .

    TM the destroyer of the Tory Party . Corbyns secret asset

    The front man of Vote Leave supports the deal.

    The Chief Executive of Vote Leave supports the deal.

    You need to direct your ire towards the Brexiteers of the ERG and DUP who are doing their best to stop Brexit.

    After all Gove has said No Deal doesn't respect the referendum result.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Can only assume the reason she hasn't. As I suggested earlier and was shot down. She has a heck of a lot of sympathy with their views.
    She really doesn't.

    She was the Home Secretary that enacted same sex marriage in England & Wales.

    One of the highlights for me of GE2017 was when Andrew Marr asked her if she thought 'gay sex was a sin' a la Tim Farron. She said no, I think he was expecting answer from the daughter of a CoE vicar.
    Then why, pray tell, did she appear on the steps of Downing Street, after throwing away her majority, and announce, without consulting, or considering ANY other options, that she was to enter an arrangement with them?
    She wasn't forced to.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MikeL said:

    May 2nd GE can now be 100% ruled out - May would have to have announced today so as to put Motion on Order Paper for vote tomorrow to dissolve Parliament by midnight tomorrow.

    Wouldn’t you just delay the locals to align with whenever in May May may choose?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    kjohnw said:

    Surely she has to resign now , she has failed the country her time is up. How can she carry on like this . There will be riots in the streets if brexit is betrayed . A new leader who will implement the referendum is needed .

    TM the destroyer of the Tory Party . Corbyns secret asset

    She carries on because no one else wants the poisoned chalice . They want her to take all the flak and then ride in saying if only she had listened to them.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:
    Crikey. That's the kind of language that will see Con MPs VONC their own government.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Scott_P said:
    Yet the right thing for both the country and her party. As I have been arguing for ages.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Can only assume the reason she hasn't. As I suggested earlier and was shot down. She has a heck of a lot of sympathy with their views.
    One of the highlights for me of GE2017 was when Andrew Marr asked her if she thought 'gay sex was a sin' a la Tim Farron. She said no, I think he was expecting answer from the daughter of a CoE vicar.
    It was also an instant "instinctive" answer - not one borne of calculation - it didn't require any thought.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:
    It's good to see Leavers keeping their sense of perspective.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    Late to the show: I think that Gove has been doing an excellent job at Environment. I hope he stays in post for the rest of parliament.
  • Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Scott_P said:
    It's good to see Leavers keeping their sense of perspective.
    'Loon' doesn't really seem to cover it, does it?
  • dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.
    Stop Stormont salaries until they sit again.
    Indeed.
    They then terminate confidence and supply while she is PM
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Don't think there ever any doubt who's side Theresa May was really on anyway...
    As far as I can tell she's on her own side.
    A normal person would have cracked up by now.
    There has been no point in the last three months when I have understood what Theresa May was trying to do. She has spent the time trying to defibrillate a corpse. The time could have been better used looking for an alternative resolution. She should have stood down long ago.
    She is carrying on in the same way that she has always carried on - announce her decision and then browbeat everyone else into acquiescing. Except that in this case MPs are not willing to acquiesce. May probably thought she could bully her way through but she has neither the personal authority nor the support of her colleagues that would be required to do that.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    Scott_P said:
    The only way TMay can personally "take No Deal away" is either by promising something she cannot necessarily deliver: a General Election or a new Referendum - or by Revoking.

    On that logic, she IS implying that she would Revoke, at the 11th hour, if necessary (and then resign?)

    I can't see any other way to avoid No Deal.
  • Late to the show: I think that Gove has been doing an excellent job at Environment. I hope he stays in post for the rest of parliament.

    It's the only good job he's ever done, but it is a good job.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Can only assume the reason she hasn't. As I suggested earlier and was shot down. She has a heck of a lot of sympathy with their views.
    She really doesn't.

    She was the Home Secretary that enacted same sex marriage in England & Wales.

    One of the highlights for me of GE2017 was when Andrew Marr asked her if she thought 'gay sex was a sin' a la Tim Farron. She said no, I think he was expecting answer from the daughter of a CoE vicar.
    Then why, pray tell, did she appear on the steps of Downing Street, after throwing away her majority, and announce, without consulting, or considering ANY other options, that she was to enter an arrangement with them?
    She wasn't forced to.
    She needed a bigger majority because of the ERG loons.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Can only assume the reason she hasn't. As I suggested earlier and was shot down. She has a heck of a lot of sympathy with their views.
    One of the highlights for me of GE2017 was when Andrew Marr asked her if she thought 'gay sex was a sin' a la Tim Farron. She said no, I think he was expecting answer from the daughter of a CoE vicar.
    It was also an instant "instinctive" answer - not one borne of calculation - it didn't require any thought.
    Yup.

    I think her precise comment was 'Of course not'
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MPs complaining that Britain is not Brexiting on 29th March because MPs voted not to Brexit on 29th March.....
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Charles said:

    MikeL said:

    May 2nd GE can now be 100% ruled out - May would have to have announced today so as to put Motion on Order Paper for vote tomorrow to dissolve Parliament by midnight tomorrow.

    Wouldn’t you just delay the locals to align with whenever in May May may choose?
    Contrary to your hopes, I will point out, if I may, "May May may" may not represent the longest possible sequence of Mays in a grammatical sentence.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Late to the show: I think that Gove has been doing an excellent job at Environment. I hope he stays in post for the rest of parliament.

    Rest of the Parliament? What all six days of it? :D
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    edited March 2019

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though. I remember when Cameron was desperate to support him against his constituency association.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    She's so tone-deaf. This is painful.

    She starts by reading out a prepared non-apology that she's been told to give for Wednesday's speech, and then spends the next hour and a half reiterating the same old refusals we've heard a thousand times already.

    She appears to have absolutely no comprehension that the "same old" has been shown repeatedly not to work, so maybe it's time to start considering something different...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though.
    Yes, that's the odd thing, and something I've noted amongst ordinary party members that I know. Brexit seems to have addled brains (and not only on the Leave side, as Lord Adonis demonstrates).
  • Painful, pitiful, embarassing, dangerous.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited March 2019
    Scott_P said:
    Oh no!

    I am as happy to be blocked on twitter by that "comedian" for pointing out he tells the same joke on the same subject every day as I am to be reinstated on here! Please don't retweet* his boring unfunnyness

    *joke joke
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Charles said:

    MikeL said:

    May 2nd GE can now be 100% ruled out - May would have to have announced today so as to put Motion on Order Paper for vote tomorrow to dissolve Parliament by midnight tomorrow.

    Wouldn’t you just delay the locals to align with whenever in May May may choose?
    Could you when notice of election papers have already been sent out (I got mine on Friday)..
  • Scott_P said:
    The obvious answer from Theresa will be to present yet another Meaningful Vote.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though. I remember when Cameron was desperate to support him against his constituency association.
    Yeah he isn't really one of the "usual suspects" so if he's representative of the level of anger in the Tory Party now I'd say it's not just curtains for Theresa but the whole government may be days or even hours from falling...
  • Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though. I remember when Cameron was desperate to support him against his constituency association.
    That's probably the saddest thing about Brexit for me.

    Rational and moderate Tory MPs who I respected have gone all mad on Brexit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725

    She's so tone-deaf. This is painful.

    She starts by reading out a prepared non-apology that she's been told to give for Wednesday's speech, and then spends the next hour and a half reiterating the same old refusals we've heard a thousand times already.

    She appears to have absolutely no comprehension that the "same old" has been shown repeatedly not to work, so maybe it's time to start considering something different...

    Instead of leadership she resorts to passive-aggressive bullying and it's not working.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Quite.
    Although doesn't an Irish Unity poll have to be heldin the RoI at he same time?
    There would be a lot of fun watching the Republic trying to wheedle out of such a poll...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though. I remember when Cameron was desperate to support him against his constituency association.
    That's probably the saddest thing about Brexit for me.

    Rational and moderate Tory MPs who I respected have gone all mad on Brexit.
    I find myself in the odd position of suddenly being outflanked by people who I would have considered far more pro-EU than I am.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Scott_P said:
    It's good to see Leavers keeping their sense of perspective.
    They’re becoming more unhinged by the day .
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    MikeL said:

    May 2nd GE can now be 100% ruled out - May would have to have announced today so as to put Motion on Order Paper for vote tomorrow to dissolve Parliament by midnight tomorrow.

    Wouldn’t you just delay the locals to align with whenever in May May may choose?
    Contrary to your hopes, I will point out, if I may, "May May may" may not represent the longest possible sequence of Mays in a grammatical sentence.
    Of course not - I would draw youe attention , if I may ;'may,"May May May" may" may be extended indefinitely just by quoting each previous 'may...may' as the seed and appending may / may at each end/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Good to see EdM is on the ball.

    May dodges the Q but doesn't deny what she said before.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:
    Whenever there's trouble you always know that all roads will lead to Mr Poll Tax. ;)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,503

    SeanT said:

    This is heading to no deal sadly

    I think TMay has just very heavily implied that she would Revoke rather than allow No Deal, at the last minute (on the grounds that parliament has decided against)
    She will never revoke.

    She’d resign first.
    Casino and I have been here before, Sean, and I made it two to one on Revoke if it's a head-to-head with No Deal . I stand by that still, but of course I'm implying only a 66% probability - no racing certainty.

    I'd make it shorter but I'm begining to wonder whether May might be becoming a little unhinged. That Wednesday nite broadcast was really....well, odd.
    Overall, yes, but not on May pushing the button.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    kjohnw said:

    Surely she has to resign now , she has failed the country her time is up. How can she carry on like this . There will be riots in the streets if brexit is betrayed . A new leader who will implement the referendum is needed .

    TM the destroyer of the Tory Party . Corbyns secret asset

    The front man of Vote Leave supports the deal.

    The Chief Executive of Vote Leave supports the deal.

    You need to direct your ire towards the Brexiteers of the ERG and DUP who are doing their best to stop Brexit.

    After all Gove has said No Deal doesn't respect the referendum result.
    The events of the past few weeks have led me to conclude that there will be no riots on the street if Brexit is betrayed. It seems like a handful of frustrated old men.

    The long term problem is the disillusionment with democracy if the decision is revoked. I would personally prefer a customs union style arrangment over the deal, but either honour the result.
  • No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Why on earth are MP's getting a say anyway? There should have been no way they could possibly have overturned the vote. It makes the decision to hold a referendum pointless.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    MikeL said:

    May 2nd GE can now be 100% ruled out - May would have to have announced today so as to put Motion on Order Paper for vote tomorrow to dissolve Parliament by midnight tomorrow.

    Wouldn’t you just delay the locals to align with whenever in May May may choose?
    Contrary to your hopes, I will point out, if I may, "May May may" may not represent the longest possible sequence of Mays in a grammatical sentence.
    Of course not - I would draw youe attention , if I may ;'may,"May May May" may" may be extended indefinitely just by quoting each previous 'may...may' as the seed and appending may / may at each end/
    The string "may ;'may,"May May May" may" may" may indeed be (countably) infinitely extensible. I would suggest an armistice.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Quite.
    Although doesn't an Irish Unity poll have to be heldin the RoI at he same time?
    There would be a lot of fun watching the Republic trying to wheedle out of such a poll...
    Ireland would love it and the Americans would cover any transition costs.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though. I remember when Cameron was desperate to support him against his constituency association.
    That's probably the saddest thing about Brexit for me.

    Rational and moderate Tory MPs who I respected have gone all mad on Brexit.
    I find myself in the odd position of suddenly being outflanked by people who I would have considered far more pro-EU than I am.
    Like you said last week, Ken Clarke is doing more to ensure the UK leaves the EU than say John Redwood and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    dixiedean said:


    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    It doesn't want a Referendum its already voted against it....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    That's fair enough, because a Referendum is another attempt to pass the buck, and avoid having to take a hard decision.

    MP's who have been pressing for a referendum need to vote for what they really want, Revocation.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Meeting with the DUP went well then...

    Mrs May needs to go postal on the DUP.

    Tell them that one of the first consequences of No Deal is an Irish Unity Poll for which she will legislate for (and is guaranteed support from Corbyn's Labour Party.)

    Also she should say she takes on board the DUP's concerns about NI divergence from GB so she will legislate to enable same sex marriage and abortion in NI.
    Can only assume the reason she hasn't. As I suggested earlier and was shot down. She has a heck of a lot of sympathy with their views.
    She really doesn't.

    She was the Home Secretary that enacted same sex marriage in England & Wales.

    One of the highlights for me of GE2017 was when Andrew Marr asked her if she thought 'gay sex was a sin' a la Tim Farron. She said no, I think he was expecting answer from the daughter of a CoE vicar.
    Then why, pray tell, did she appear on the steps of Downing Street, after throwing away her majority, and announce, without consulting, or considering ANY other options, that she was to enter an arrangement with them?
    She wasn't forced to.
    She needed a bigger majority because of the ERG loons.
    "loons"
    "unhinged"

    So it continues...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    More than 32,000 dead and 87,000 seriously injured?
  • Well, I ma totally confused. It seems as if May is promising both No Deal and an extended delay at exactly the same time. She had already lost all semblance of authority and now she has lost any notion of a strategy. She is totally at the mercy of events. Action is needed to remove her immediately.

    I would not disagree but as with everything brexit who replaces her, how and what does it change

    Someone is surely going to have to take one for the team: someone who has no long-term leadership ambitions, someone who is capable of putting the country first. From here that must mean one of two things:
    1. Reaching across to Labour MPs and getting a deal done to ensure Brexit by 22nd May.
    2. A long extension so that there can be a general election that will hopefully break the deadlock.
    If we are to avoid a No Deal Brexit - which over 400 MPs have said they want to do - these are now the two realistic choices. It goes without saying, of course, that this will not happen.


    I smiled and cried at your logic - so true
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    MikeL said:

    May 2nd GE can now be 100% ruled out - May would have to have announced today so as to put Motion on Order Paper for vote tomorrow to dissolve Parliament by midnight tomorrow.

    Wouldn’t you just delay the locals to align with whenever in May May may choose?
    Contrary to your hopes, I will point out, if I may, "May May may" may not represent the longest possible sequence of Mays in a grammatical sentence.
    Of course not - I would draw youe attention , if I may ;'may,"May May May" may" may be extended indefinitely just by quoting each previous 'may...may' as the seed and appending may / may at each end/
    The string "may ;'may,"May May May" may" may" may indeed be (countably) infinitely extensible. I would suggest an armistice.
    I never thought I'd see the day when PB became a repository of dank may-mays.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    What is the chances now of the erg and dup trying to no confidence the government and force a General Election
  • GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ludicrous hyperbole from Crispin Blunt, is he on poppers again?
    One would not have thought he was a loon until fairly recently, though. I remember when Cameron was desperate to support him against his constituency association.
    Yeah he isn't really one of the "usual suspects" so if he's representative of the level of anger in the Tory Party now I'd say it's not just curtains for Theresa but the whole government may be days or even hours from falling...
    Not before 12th April. Even the HOC is not that barking
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:


    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    It doesn't want a Referendum its already voted against it....
    That wasn't the point. Indicative votes are an utter waste of time if they have no effect.
    When May says she wants to know what Parliament wants, she means she wants it to agree with her.
    Hence the impasse.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,587
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    The only way TMay can personally "take No Deal away" is either by promising something she cannot necessarily deliver: a General Election or a new Referendum - or by Revoking.

    On that logic, she IS implying that she would Revoke, at the 11th hour, if necessary (and then resign?)

    I can't see any other way to avoid No Deal.
    I think that must be right. However, TM does not by now have a track record of reliably sticking to her commitments and promises so while it might be true that ultimately she will use her prerogative to revoke, she might also change her mind.

    Revoking can be dressed up as deferring of course.

  • No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    More than 32,000 dead and 87,000 seriously injured?
    I was channelling Crispin Blunt.
  • No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    I assume that is meant to provoke?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    algarkirk said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    The only way TMay can personally "take No Deal away" is either by promising something she cannot necessarily deliver: a General Election or a new Referendum - or by Revoking.

    On that logic, she IS implying that she would Revoke, at the 11th hour, if necessary (and then resign?)

    I can't see any other way to avoid No Deal.
    I think that must be right. However, TM does not by now have a track record of reliably sticking to her commitments and promises so while it might be true that ultimately she will use her prerogative to revoke, she might also change her mind.

    Revoking can be dressed up as deferring of course.

    She wanted to ask for a long extension last week. Clearly she would do so next week.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Plus the new Mary Poppins is crap.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,815
    I mean this is just weird now. Constant alternate questions from each side demanding a 2nd vote or leave with no deal, now. Each claiming a mandate for their position and she has to bat each away. You could just put this on a loop. It is pointless.
  • TOPPING said:

    Plus the new Mary Poppins is crap.

    Yer what?

    It was magical.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:


    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    It doesn't want a Referendum its already voted against it....
    That wasn't the point. Indicative votes are an utter waste of time if they have no effect.
    When May says she wants to know what Parliament wants, she means she wants it to agree with her.
    Hence the impasse.
    PS, I do not want a referendum. However, Parliament has to make a decision. Ruling out options Parliament may support is neither practical nor sensible.
  • Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
    Do you want to trash the UK economy and make Putin and Farage happy by leaving the EU?

    Yes or No.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    Nurse!!!! :D
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,149
    edited March 2019
    kjh said:

    I mean this is just weird now. Constant alternate questions from each side demanding a 2nd vote or leave with no deal, now. Each claiming a mandate for their position and she has to bat each away. You could just put this on a loop. It is pointless.

    I have stopped watching and am now watching kids tv with two of my grandchildren, 7 and 5

    And they knock spots off the mps on the intelligence stakes
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:


    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    It doesn't want a Referendum its already voted against it....
    That wasn't the point. Indicative votes are an utter waste of time if they have no effect.
    When May says she wants to know what Parliament wants, she means she wants it to agree with her.
    Hence the impasse.
    If the indicative vote process (is agreed and) does produce a clear consensus option, the government will have no choice but to run with it (or resign). Hence why they are so afraid of it. Nevertheless there is no guarantee such a consensus will emerge, although CM2 looks favourite to me.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    "Michael Avenatti, the former lawyer for Stormy Daniels, has been indicted on extortion charges."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/michael-avenatti-to-be-charged-with-wire-and-bank-fraud.html
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
    I'd be fine with another referendum that was between May's deal and no deal. :D
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
    I'd be fine with another referendum that was between May's deal and no deal. :D
    Never going to happen. It'll be between a sensible Brexit and the more sensible Remain.
  • "Michael Avenatti, the former lawyer for Stormy Daniels, has been indicted on extortion charges."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/michael-avenatti-to-be-charged-with-wire-and-bank-fraud.html

    Hope no one backed him win the Dem nomination/Presidency in 2020.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,815

    kjh said:

    I mean this is just weird now. Constant alternate questions from each side demanding a 2nd vote or leave with no deal, now. Each claiming a mandate for their position and she has to bat each away. You could just put this on a loop. It is pointless.

    I have stopped watching and am now watching kids tv with two of my grandchildren, 7 and 5

    And they knock spots off the mps on the intelligence stakes
    I might need to borrow them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    More than 32,000 dead and 87,000 seriously injured?
    I was channelling Crispin Blunt.
    On poppers?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    May is simply playing for time, waiting to see what (if anything) MPs tell her to do this evening.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    notme2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Backing the withdrawal agreement but not the political declaration would be buying a pig in a poke. Why on earth should the opposition trust the government to take this forward sight unseen? Why, for that matter, would any MP?

    Just maybe if they were promised an early election and it was recognised that it will be for the next government, not this one, to determine what our relationship with the EU will be? There is nothing in the WA, or for that matter in the PD, which would prevent a Labour government seeking a permanent CU, for example.

    I'm clutching at straws here, I recognise that.
    failure to agree a trade deal which seems incredibly likely will result in a permanent CU as part of the backstop.
    Since that is Labour party policy I am not clear why that is a problem for them. But that's me trying to be rational again. Waste of time.
  • No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    More than 32,000 dead and 87,000 seriously injured?
    I was channelling Crispin Blunt.
    On poppers?
    I'm a good boy, I've never done drugs.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Plus the new Mary Poppins is crap.

    Yer what?

    It was magical.
    Nah - it was all over the place and trying too hard.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    Hello again from Standedge Tunnel!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
    I'd be fine with another referendum that was between May's deal and no deal. :D
    Never going to happen. It'll be between a sensible Brexit and the more sensible Remain.

    I just thought I'd put it out there. :D
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    More than 32,000 dead and 87,000 seriously injured?
    I was channelling Crispin Blunt.
    On poppers?
    I'm a good boy, I've never done drugs.
    Coffee and alcohol are drugs.

  • TGOHF said:

    No Deal Brexit will do more damage to the UK than the Luftwaffe managed between 1939 and 1945.

    More than 32,000 dead and 87,000 seriously injured?
    I was channelling Crispin Blunt.
    On poppers?
    I'm a good boy, I've never done drugs.
    Coffee and alcohol are drugs.

    I don't do those either.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    algarkirk said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    The only way TMay can personally "take No Deal away" is either by promising something she cannot necessarily deliver: a General Election or a new Referendum - or by Revoking.

    On that logic, she IS implying that she would Revoke, at the 11th hour, if necessary (and then resign?)

    I can't see any other way to avoid No Deal.
    I think that must be right. However, TM does not by now have a track record of reliably sticking to her commitments and promises so while it might be true that ultimately she will use her prerogative to revoke, she might also change her mind.

    Revoking can be dressed up as deferring of course.

    I don't think that's sellable. Revoke is just a Deferral? Nah. It would be seen as Revoke and Remain, which is fair, as that would almost certainly be the result.

    That's why, if TMay did do it, I think she'd have to resign immediately after.

    Put it another way, in the next week or two TMay is going to have to do something she has consistently vowed not to do: allow No Deal, allow a referendum and extend, call a GE and extend, accept some new soft Deal that crosses all her red lines, or Revoke.


    Any one of these will destroy her career, some will destroy her career, or her party, or her country, or all three.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2019

    "Michael Avenatti, the former lawyer for Stormy Daniels, has been indicted on extortion charges."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/michael-avenatti-to-be-charged-with-wire-and-bank-fraud.html

    Hope no one backed him win the Dem nomination/Presidency in 2020.
    I keep having a double take when the Guardian refers to Stormy Daniels as a porn actor, thinking I must have missed a key episode of the story. Then I realise they mean actress.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,253

    "May suggests she would refuse to accept a plan for a referendum if MPs propose it in indicative votes."

    More generally, refuse to pursue anything on Brexit which conflicts with the manifesto the Cons were elected on in 2017, e.g. staying in the CU and/or SM. Same goes for any other feasible Tory PM who might replace her.

    A General Election is surely coming - but will it be before or after we leave?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,621
    IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
    I'd be fine with another referendum that was between May's deal and no deal. :D
    Never going to happen. It'll be between a sensible Brexit and the more sensible Remain.
    And when do we table the Referendum after that - for best of three? (Assuming your Remain lot don't get stuffed again by the voters. Which is not set in stone....they are in an ornery mood.)
  • SeanT said:

    This is heading to no deal sadly

    I think TMay has just very heavily implied that she would Revoke rather than allow No Deal, at the last minute (on the grounds that parliament has decided against)
    She will never revoke.

    She’d resign first.
    Casino and I have been here before, Sean, and I made it two to one on Revoke if it's a head-to-head with No Deal . I stand by that still, but of course I'm implying only a 66% probability - no racing certainty.

    I'd make it shorter but I'm begining to wonder whether May might be becoming a little unhinged. That Wednesday nite broadcast was really....well, odd.
    Overall, yes, but not on May pushing the button.
    Yes, I see what you mea.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    IanB2 said:

    May is simply playing for time, waiting to see what (if anything) MPs tell her to do this evening.

    May? Playing for time?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    TOPPING said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Don't think there ever any doubt who's side Theresa May was really on anyway...
    As far as I can tell she's on her own side.
    A normal person would have cracked up by now.
    There has been no point in the last three months when I have understood what Theresa May was trying to do. She has spent the time trying to defibrillate a corpse. The time could have been better used looking for an alternative resolution. She should have stood down long ago.
    She has been trying to get her deal through parliament I mean it is such an innocuous simple thing - money, citizens, backstop - but for reasons of perfectly understandable ideology and political expediency too many MPs are rejecting it.

    Which is a shame because as it stands it is the only sensible and coherent way forward. As, to be fair to her, she keeps on saying.

    She might have sown the seeds for this mess two years ago but now that we are where we are she appears to be the lone voice of reason.
    Yep I agree with that. But given that she did make such a mess of things early on and that she has clearly lost the confidence of pretty much everyone in the country, she really should take that final step and accept she will stand down if that is what it takes to get her deal through. The idea of her tin ear being in charge of the trade negotiations for the next two years is horrendous.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    i.e. she accepts it won't happen but isn't her fault.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    kjohnw said:

    What is the chances now of the erg and dup trying to no confidence the government and force a General Election

    Why would the DUP give up their only power in decades and the additional pork that power is given their constituents in Northern Ireland
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    Put it another way, in the next week or two TMay is going to have to do something she has consistently vowed not to do: allow No Deal, allow a referendum and extend, call a GE and extend, accept some new soft Deal that crosses all her red lines, or Revoke.


    Any one of these will destroy her career, some will destroy her career, or her party, or her country, or all three.

    https://twitter.com/NinaDSchick/status/1110223398288928768
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    "Michael Avenatti, the former lawyer for Stormy Daniels, has been indicted on extortion charges."

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/25/michael-avenatti-to-be-charged-with-wire-and-bank-fraud.html

    Hope no one backed him win the Dem nomination/Presidency in 2020.
    I keep having a double take when the Guardian refers to Stormy Daniels as a porn actor, thinking I must have missed a key episode of the story. Then I realise they mean actress.
    I'm now wondering what story you were watching and where the pizza delivery boy fitted in.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    So. The PM has been exhorting Parliament to say what it wants, not what it doesn't want, for months now.
    But, if it wants a Referendum it can't have it...

    Britain is a Parliamentary Democracy. A Referendum got us into this mess so it's easy to work out that a second referendum probably won't solve it (especially as no-one has any plan for a referendum that works with 3 to 400 variations possibly on the table)
    You identify another problem. No one could agree on the wording of a second referendum, even if the principle were agreed.
    I'd be fine with another referendum that was between May's deal and no deal. :D
    Never going to happen. It'll be between a sensible Brexit and the more sensible Remain.
    And when do we table the Referendum after that - for best of three? (Assuming your Remain lot don't get stuffed again by the voters. Which is not set in stone....they are in an ornery mood.)
    No, once there are specific proposals that can actually be implemented on both sides of the question, it'll be final.

This discussion has been closed.