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If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?0 -
OnlyLivingBoy said:
"The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone. You hear them shouting "Heil, Spode!" and you imagine it is the Voice of the People. That is where you make your bloomer. What the Voice of the People is saying is: "Look at that frightful ass Spode swanking about in footer bags! Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?"
I think Britain has always struggled to take populists seriously, even if it has frequently fallen in thrall to populist ideas. Brexit (a populist idea that the public voted for) versus May (a populist politician that the public won't vote for) are the latest examples. If we ever produce a populist that really cuts through ("Tommy Robinson" is probably the most successful to date but will also fall short I think, thank God) we'll be in real trouble.
I do not want to depress people on this gloriously sunny day. I am sitting in my garden as I write this.CD13 said:Ms Cyclefree,
A good header, but there is a simpler explanation. Mrs May isn't a very good politician but she is consistent - a little like 'ol Bonehead in Labour tries to be. She remains at heart a Remainer, but possibly a little shocked by the referendum result, has genuinely decided to honour it.
Her negotiations yielded her what seemed to be a result acceptable to both sides. However she underestimated the extremism on the ERG side and the ambition of the Remain side. The former want a clean break, the latter to reverse the referendum result. She also under-estimated Labour's aim to prevent her claiming any credit.
As we probably agree, she's a bad politician. That doesn't make her bad, merely naïve and unsuited to the job
But our political culture has become much more illiberal - on Labour’s side because Corbyn’s default instincts are not,IMO, those of liberal democracy and on the Tories’ side because of the focus on Brexit. May’s combination of incompetence, insecurity and a natural authoritarianism has led her to behaving in the way I have outlined.
It may not be populism South American style but it is sufficient of a move away from our traditional approach to politics to sound a warning note, one which I think should be heeded but isn’t. Both parties want to tear down rather than build. There are dangers in such an approach.0 -
those pushing in to ever closer Union have no idea how the EU works nor indeed how their own country works.SouthamObserver said:
Brexit has failed because the vast majority of those in prominent positions who campaigned for it had no idea how the EU works, had no concept of how integrated the UK is in cross-border supply chains, never bothered to understand the very specific problems of the Irish border and had no knowledge of what drives FTAs. They thought that Brexit could be delivered on the back of 500 word articles and speeches about liberty and tyranny. If they had bothered to do the hard yards, they might have come up with a viable plan. But that would also have involved some honesty about the sacrifices leaving the EU would involve. And that, of course, is why those who had done the hard work either: (1) lied, or (2) advocated a slow transition out of the EU involving the EEA/EFTA.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
If we end up Remaining in a second referendum, it will be with a substantial part of the populace self-describing and voting as pro-Europeans. I would therefore expect the campaign for Euro membership to get underway swiftly, and for British exceptionalism in terms of not identifying as European to diminish.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!0 -
There's always been various levels of exploitation but your modern middle class mentality regards itself self-righteously as 'progresssive' and morally superior to the proles.kyf_100 said:
Modern?another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
While still being dependent upon mass exploitation for its own living standards and lifestyle.0 -
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.0 -
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.0 -
Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
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Not to mention that the May's cabinet is dominated by former Remain supporters.Philip_Thompson said:Within May's own party almost all 2016 Remainers back the deal (with a few hardline exceptions) while it is Leavers that oppose it. May's deal is a very Remainer deal.
Opposition for oppositions sake from Corbyn and co does not change that.
If someone had told you in 2016 there was a deal backed by Ken Clarke while opposed by the ERG nobody would have said that the deal maker had not reached out to Remainers.0 -
Let me introduce you to our media - subtlety and nuanced explanation doesn’t work in the age of click bait.kle4 said:
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.
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That may well be the case. Looks like we agree on everything.Alanbrooke said:
those pushing in to ever closer Union have no idea how the EU works nor indeed how their own country works.SouthamObserver said:
Brexit has failed because the vast majority of those in prominent positions who campaigned for it had no idea how the EU works, had no concept of how integrated the UK is in cross-border supply chains, never bothered to understand the very specific problems of the Irish border and had no knowledge of what drives FTAs. They thought that Brexit could be delivered on the back of 500 word articles and speeches about liberty and tyranny. If they had bothered to do the hard yards, they might have come up with a viable plan. But that would also have involved some honesty about the sacrifices leaving the EU would involve. And that, of course, is why those who had done the hard work either: (1) lied, or (2) advocated a slow transition out of the EU involving the EEA/EFTA.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
If we end up Remaining in a second referendum, it will be with a substantial part of the populace self-describing and voting as pro-Europeans. I would therefore expect the campaign for Euro membership to get underway swiftly, and for British exceptionalism in terms of not identifying as European to diminish.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
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I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.0 -
Out of interest, what's your definition of working and middle class? Presumably, you would consider anyone with a mobile phone or television assembled by poorly paid, exploited workers in the third world as middle class, so are there actually any working class people left in the UK?another_richard said:
There's always been various levels of exploitation but your modern middle class mentality regards itself self-righteously as 'progresssive' and morally superior to the proles.kyf_100 said:
Modern?another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
While still being dependent upon mass exploitation for its own living standards and lifestyle.
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You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.0 -
More training both in the workplace and outside to improve workers' skills and pay prospects, a few more grammar schools if parents want them, even eventually a universal basic income might helpAlanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.0 -
Yet it is the middle class who support uncontrolled migration of the low skilled, a policy guaranteed to put downward pressure on working class wages and upward pressure on house prices.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.0 -
Barclay on Marr says he did not back Leave to go to WTO terms but with a Deal with the EU0
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And I was a Labour member who rejected the anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism of the far left. I lost and so have you, I'm afraid. There are good, moderate Tory members, just as there are still good, moderate Labour members. But the direction of travel in both parties is clear.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do not judge all of us as ERG supporters. I am a conservative member who rejects their views of the unattainable aims of no dealSouthamObserver said:
Your friends have lost.Recidivist said:
It is no doubt a weird statistical fluke of small numbers, but all the Conservative Party members I know are strongly pro-EU. And I met another couple on the train home from the march yesterday. Not trying to make any particular point other than it is very easy for your personal experiences to be misleading.Mortimer said:
Were than their preceding generations.williamglenn said:
A corollary of your argument is that the Conservative party only has a future as a pro-European party, otherwise it will always be on the back foot.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
The Conservative party is 80% + Eurosceptic. This used to be just the membership - since the Brexit vote it has been their vote, too.
Revoke will never happen because of this; long delay is death by a thousand cuts (the deepest of which would be the MEP elections).
The Conservative party is now pre-2016 UKIP: hard right, deeply anti-EU, xenophobic and English nationalist. All those vying to take over from May know this very clearly.
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We have a situation where the members of our sovereign body have been disconnected from the executive and it can’t go on. The Government is supposed to be formed by the individual with the confidence of Parliament. Except now, in both major parties, there is an assumption instead that it will be formed by the person who has the confidence of the membership of their respective parties outside Parliament. Further, because of the FTPA it’s harder for Parliament to remove the Government, and the consequences of it voting down signature legislation are the less. The law of unintended consequences has resulted in direct election of party leaders and the FTPA breaking the constitution. The 2016 referendum itself was Cameron’s effort to bypass his Parliamentary party to get a result from the electorate he wanted instead.kle4 said:
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.
The immediate practical outcome is that it is hard to see either major parliamentary party seeking to change leaders for fear of what the loons that form the membership of both will come up with.0 -
we had ours, a bit of muttering about brexit, a chat by the MP, all over in 45 minutes.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.0 -
That's not quite the same thing though, especially in the context of future democratic consequences arising from remaining in the EU.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?
A future in the EU post circumstances where Brexit has been tried and failed is less likely to lead to years of resentment and anti EU voting (especially in European elections) than a future in the EU resulting from the failure of those empowered with enacting Brexit to deliver.0 -
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU0 -
As am I. They've utterly buggered up brexit. We would be leaving the EU in five days if they voted for the WA.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do not judge all of us as ERG supporters. I am a conservative member who rejects their views of the unattainable aims of no dealSouthamObserver said:
Your friends have lost.Recidivist said:
It is no doubt a weird statistical fluke of small numbers, but all the Conservative Party members I know are strongly pro-EU. And I met another couple on the train home from the march yesterday. Not trying to make any particular point other than it is very easy for your personal experiences to be misleading.Mortimer said:
tiny pro-European minority in the party consists largely of middle class, middle aged men between the age of aggrieved (that was meant to say Grieve, but is quite a funny autocorrect so I’ve left it) and Clarke. Our younger members and politicians are in the main far more eurosceptic than their preceding generations.williamglenn said:
A corollary of your argument is that the Conservative party only has a future as a pro-European party, otherwise it will always be on the back foot.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
The Conservative party is 80% + Eurosceptic. This used to be just the membership - since the Brexit vote it has been their vote, too.
Revoke will never happen because of this; long delay is death by a thousand cuts (the deepest of which would be the MEP elections).
The Conservative party is now pre-2016 UKIP: hard right, deeply anti-EU, xenophobic and English nationalist. All those vying to take over from May know this very clearly.0 -
Embrace no deal ! More delusional nonsense if they think MPs will allow that .williamglenn said:0 -
Well Tory Remainers and Labour Blairites can always move to TIG, there is now another optionSouthamObserver said:
And I was a Labour member who rejected the anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism of the far left. I lost and so have you, I'm afraid. There are good, moderate Tory members, just as there are still good, moderate Labour members. But the direction of travel in both parties is clear.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do not judge all of us as ERG supporters. I am a conservative member who rejects their views of the unattainable aims of no dealSouthamObserver said:
Your friends have lost.Recidivist said:
It is no doubt a weird statistical fluke of small numbers, but all the Conservative Party members I know are strongly pro-EU. And I met another couple on the train home from the march yesterday. Not trying to make any particular point other than it is very easy for your personal experiences to be misleading.Mortimer said:
Were than their preceding generations.williamglenn said:
A corollary of your argument is that the Conservative party only has a future as a pro-European party, otherwise it will always be on the back foot.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
The Conservative party is 80% + Eurosceptic. This used to be just the membership - since the Brexit vote it has been their vote, too.
Revoke will never happen because of this; long delay is death by a thousand cuts (the deepest of which would be the MEP elections).
The Conservative party is now pre-2016 UKIP: hard right, deeply anti-EU, xenophobic and English nationalist. All those vying to take over from May know this very clearly.0 -
Hardline No Deal Brexiteers will never accept their Brexit has failed though, they are fanatical, ideological and uncompromisingalex. said:
That's not quite the same thing though, especially in the context of future democratic consequences arising from remaining in the EU.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?
A future in the EU post circumstances where Brexit has been tried and failed is less likely to lead to years of resentment and anti EU voting (especially in European elections) than a future in the EU resulting from the failure of those empowered with enacting Brexit to deliver.0 -
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU0 -
Hardly an issue for Labour i would have thought. Their problem is they have no mechanism for removing the leader without the support of the membership! They've already tried it.DougSeal said:
We have a situation where the members of our sovereign body have been disconnected from the executive and it can’t go on. The Government is supposed to be formed by the individual with the confidence of Parliament. Except now, in both major parties, there is an assumption instead that it will be formed by the person who has the confidence of the membership of their respective parties outside Parliament. Further, because of the FTPA it’s harder for Parliament to remove the Government, and the consequences of it voting down signature legislation are the less. The law of unintended consequences has resulted in direct election of party leaders and the FTPA breaking the constitution. The 2016 referendum itself was Cameron’s effort to bypass his Parliamentary party to get a result from the electorate he wanted instead.kle4 said:
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.
The immediate practical outcome is that it is hard to see either major parliamentary party seeking to change leaders for fear of what the loons that form the membership of both will come up with.0 -
But hardline no deal Brexiters are a very small minority of the electorate.HYUFD said:
Hardline No Deal Brexiteers will never accept their Brexit has failed though, they are fanatical, ideological and uncompromisingalex. said:
That's not quite the same thing though, especially in the context of future democratic consequences arising from remaining in the EU.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?
A future in the EU post circumstances where Brexit has been tried and failed is less likely to lead to years of resentment and anti EU voting (especially in European elections) than a future in the EU resulting from the failure of those empowered with enacting Brexit to deliver.0 -
You keep saying “you”.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
My background is not so dissimilar to yours. Please don’t ascribe to me opinions I do not hold. As discussed several times now, I somewhat agree with your sentiments but simply understand Brexit as making things worse, not better.0 -
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
0 -
I blame facebook meme creation for substantially upping the game on placards.malcolmg said:0 -
Be as pessimistic as you like, personally Im an optimist and think the UK generally has quite sensible people who dont go to extremes, Nut case activisits certainly but the population as a whole no.Cyclefree said:
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all sh accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic libwe have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU
All we are seeing is the folly of our representatives ignoring their own electorate and not addressing their concerns as they go. The ever toxic madelson\campbell mantra of "they have nowhere else to go" has been shown to be the biggest risk to UK politics, Hopefully it will now die unloved in the dark corner it hatched from.0 -
It might be and it might not be.Cyclefree said:
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU
But what you said is similar to what reactionaries have said throughout the ages and I know you are not one of them.
0 -
My point exactly. Corbyn is answerable to his members not his MPs. That, in government at least, is counter to the constitutionalex. said:
Hardly an issue for Labour i would have thought. Their problem is they have no mechanism for removing the leader without the support of the membership! They've already tried it.DougSeal said:
We have a situation where the members of our sovereign body have been disconnected from the executive and it can’t go on. The Government is supposed to be formed by the individual with the confidence of Parliament. Except now, in both major parties, there is an assumption instead that it will be formed by the person who has the confidence of the membership of their respective parties outside Parliament. Further, because of the FTPA it’s harder for Parliament to remove the Government, and the consequences of it voting down signature legislation are the less. The law of unintended consequences has resulted in direct election of party leaders and the FTPA breaking the constitution. The 2016 referendum itself was Cameron’s effort to bypass his Parliamentary party to get a result from the electorate he wanted instead.kle4 said:
Yes they can, they choose not to. If it is a plan which is about a temporary situation it is easy to explain why members are not involved.Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.
The immediate practical outcome is that it is hard to see either major parliamentary party seeking to change leaders for fear of what the loons that form the membership of both will come up with.0 -
But it is not time for either of us to surrender and let the extremes take overSouthamObserver said:
And I was a Labour member who rejected the anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism of the far left. I lost and so have you, I'm afraid. There are good, moderate Tory members, just as there are still good, moderate Labour members. But the direction of travel in both parties is clear.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do not judge all of us as ERG supporters. I am a conservative member who rejects their views of the unattainable aims of no dealSouthamObserver said:
Your friends have lost.Recidivist said:
It is no doubt a weird statistical fluke of small numbers, but all the Conservative Party members I know are strongly pro-EU. And I met another couple on the train home from the march yesterday. Not trying to make any particular point other than it is very easy for your personal experiences to be misleading.Mortimer said:
Were than their preceding generations.williamglenn said:
A corollary of your argument is that the Conservative party only has a future as a pro-European party, otherwise it will always be on the back foot.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
The Conservative party is 80% + Eurosceptic. This used to be just the membership - since the Brexit vote it has been their vote, too.
Revoke will never happen because of this; long delay is death by a thousand cuts (the deepest of which would be the MEP elections).
The Conservative party is now pre-2016 UKIP: hard right, deeply anti-EU, xenophobic and English nationalist. All those vying to take over from May know this very clearly.0 -
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.0 -
The Conservative representatives on Marr were not evasive.Big_G_NorthWales said:Starmer on Marr as evasive as everyone else
The Country has not got a prayer with these utterly useless mps
Starmer, however ...
0 -
I would say they are now about 25-30% of the electorate, the same as hardline Corbynistas. Moderate centrists are still the plurality and largest group but combine No Dealers and Corbynistas you could even say a majority of the electorate now back one of those extremes, hence they have taken over the Labour Party and are taking over the Tory Party and hence the creation of TIGanothernick said:
But hardline no deal Brexiters are a very small minority of the electorate.HYUFD said:
Hardline No Deal Brexiteers will never accept their Brexit has failed though, they are fanatical, ideological and uncompromisingalex. said:
That's not quite the same thing though, especially in the context of future democratic consequences arising from remaining in the EU.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But iand isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?
A future in the EU post circumstances where Brexit has been tried and failed is less likely to lead to years of resentment and anti EU voting (especially in European elections) than a future in the EU resulting from the failure of those empowered with enacting Brexit to deliver.0 -
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
0 -
Ill happily observe that convention when you observe it yourselfGardenwalker said:
You keep saying “you”.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
My background is not so dissimilar to yours. Please don’t ascribe to me opinions I do not hold. As discussed several times now, I somewhat agree with your sentiments but simply understand Brexit as making things worse, not better.0 -
I think more Tories like Boles, Clark, Rudd etc would go for May's Deal plus Customs Union than the likes of Grieve and Gyimah who back EUref2. Labour's official position is also for Customs Union and or Single Market benefits before EUref2 so I think soft Brexit remains more likely to get a Commons Majority than EUref2 but I would not rule out the latter winningGardenwalker said:
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.0 -
Nutcase extremists are in charge of Labour and they too are adopting the “they have nowhere else to go” mantra re Labour voters.Alanbrooke said:
Be as pessimistic as you like, personally Im an optimist and think the UK generally has quite sensible people who dont go to extremes, Nut case activisits certainly but the population as a whole no.Cyclefree said:
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all sh accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic libwe have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU
All we are seeing is the folly of our representatives ignoring their own electorate and not addressing their concerns as they go. The ever toxic madelson\campbell mantra of "they have nowhere else to go" has been shown to be the biggest risk to UK politics, Hopefully it will now die unloved in the dark corner it hatched from.0 -
Hammond was very clear on Sky this morning then he was followed by Trickett and the difference was for all to see. Trickett was cluelessgeoffw said:
The Conservative representatives on Marr were not evasive.Big_G_NorthWales said:Starmer on Marr as evasive as everyone else
The Country has not got a prayer with these utterly useless mps
Starmer, however ...
However, I do accept your point and of course it can be levelled at conservative mps as wel0 -
You run your finances like Norway has done then use the dividends of the sovereign wealth fund as a universal basic incomeSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.0 -
More skills training and probably eventually a Universal Basic IncomeSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.0 -
You misunderstand how the conservative party functions with its membership. We choose our leader (sometimes) and we choose our MPs and put leaflets through the door for them. The involvement ends largely there.SouthamObserver said:
And I was a Labour member who rejected the anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism of the far left. I lost and so have you, I'm afraid. There are good, moderate Tory members, just as there are still good, moderate Labour members. But the direction of travel in both parties is clear.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do not judge all of us as ERG supporters. I am a conservative member who rejects their views of the unattainable aims of no dealSouthamObserver said:
Your friends have lost.Recidivist said:
Ioint other than it is very easy for your personal experiences to be misleading.Mortimer said:
Were than their preceding generations.williamglenn said:
A corollary of your argument is that the Conservative party only has a future as a pro-European party, otherwise it will always be on the back foot.RoyalBlue said:
As in all revolutions, both sides have continued to radicalise. Calls for no deal were rare before the referendum, while support for joining the single currency has grown since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
The Conservative party is 80% + Eurosceptic. This used to be just the membership - since the Brexit vote it has been their vote, too.
Revoke will never happen because of this; long delay is death by a thousand cuts (the deepest of which would be the MEP elections).
The Conservative party is now pre-2016 UKIP: hard right, deeply anti-EU, xenophobic and English nationalist. All those vying to take over from May know this very clearly.0 -
It will be a lot easier to deal with transition if we can get to a majority around an objectiveGardenwalker said:
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.0 -
You may well be correct on thatGardenwalker said:
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.
The deal will depend on ERG suddenly switching and support the deal and speaking up for it in the HOC0 -
I would like politicians to stand up for and practise the values of liberal democracy and freedom and the rule of law and equality under the law. That may make me old-fashioned. But not reactionary.another_richard said:
It might be and it might not be.Cyclefree said:
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU
But what you said is similar to what reactionaries have said throughout the ages and I know you are not one of them.
Anyway time to enjoy the spring sunshine.0 -
The problem is that the Tory Party is split three ways , leave, remain and ultra loonies(ERG)geoffw said:
The Conservative representatives on Marr were not evasive.Big_G_NorthWales said:Starmer on Marr as evasive as everyone else
The Country has not got a prayer with these utterly useless mps
Starmer, however ...0 -
Probably about 20-25% or so, similar to the proportion of radical socialists, or people who want to revoke Brexit (the first and last group overlap with the second, to an extent).anothernick said:
But hardline no deal Brexiters are a very small minority of the electorate.HYUFD said:
Hardline No Deal Brexiteers will never accept their Brexit has failed though, they are fanatical, ideological and uncompromisingalex. said:
That's not quite the same thing though, especially in the context of future democratic consequences arising from remaining in the EU.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?
A future in the EU post circumstances where Brexit has been tried and failed is less likely to lead to years of resentment and anti EU voting (especially in European elections) than a future in the EU resulting from the failure of those empowered with enacting Brexit to deliver.0 -
If refreshments are laid on, it's to be hoped that the only cutlery provided will be spoons - preferably plastic ones, to be on the safe side.williamglenn said:0 -
That's a very good point and I think most people who come to prominence in public life have somewhat above average intellectual capabilities. (Giles Fraser being of course the exception.)Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.0 -
After Uri Geller's intervention, spoons might be unsafe too.Chris said:
If refreshments are laid on, it's to be hoped that the only cutlery provided will be spoons - preferably plastic ones, to be on the safe side.williamglenn said:0 -
As you must surely realise, there is no such thing as 'delivering' a successful Brexit, or needing to do so. Brexit is not a thing, it is an absence of thing. It isn't a project, it is an absence of project. And since the EU doesn't collect our bins, treat our sick, sell us our stamps, or in fact perform any useful task, once we are gone, we are gone, and we won't ever go back. That's why, as most Remainers in positions of political power know, it must be prevented or all is lost.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?0 -
Infamy, infamy. They've all got it in for May.Chris said:
If refreshments are laid on, it's to be hoped that the only cutlery provided will be spoons - preferably plastic ones, to be on the safe side.williamglenn said:0 -
For what its worth I thinbk we need toSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
- invest heavily in our own infrastructure - we have 2-3 decade gap to fill and its one of the reasons why both our productivity and GDP are sub optimal
- decentralise as a coiuntry and put more decision making down to regions where people can influence their own futures
- reform corporate and personal taxation to reflect the changes in economy
- make our priority raising GDP per head rather than just GDP
0 -
Possibly - but that means much higher taxes and it also means international action against tax avoidance. The Conservative party is focused on the UK (or, more likely, England) becoming a low tax economy.Pulpstar said:
You run your finances like Norway has done then use the dividends of the sovereign wealth fund as a universal basic incomeSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
0 -
It makes you naive as well.Cyclefree said:
I would like politicians to stand up for and practise the values of liberal democracy and freedom and the rule of law and equality under the law. That may make me old-fashioned. But not reactionary.another_richard said:
It might be and it might not be.Cyclefree said:
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as saying Brexit will break the political mould, Which quite clearly it has.williamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.
And once politics reorganises then the economics will follow. Currently there is little chance of this happening with the tiresome EU
But what you said is similar to what reactionaries have said throughout the ages and I know you are not one of them.
Anyway time to enjoy the spring sunshine.
What our politicians do is pander to the rich and powerful, bribe their own supporters to keep voting for them, posture about the world at a cost of British lives and money, obsess about vanity projects while neglecting essential infrastructure and ignore proper preparation and attention to detail in favour of ranting on twatter.0 -
yes, but theres only so long that can go on, after a while people do find other places to go and go there.Cyclefree said:
Nutcase extremists are in charge of Labour and they too are adopting the “they have nowhere else to go” mantra re Labour voters.Alanbrooke said:
Be as pessimistic as you like, personally Im an optimist and think the UK generally has quite sensible people who dont go to extremes, Nut case activisits certainly but the population as a whole no.Cyclefree said:
It may well break the political mould. But I fear that what may follow will be far nastier and more damaging to those you describe than the EU.Alanbrooke said:
Im also on the record as sayie tiresome EUwilliamglenn said:
You're on the record as saying you wanted a soft Brexit, so it would have made no difference at all to the economic settlement. It's just a tiresome form of virtue signalling.Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all sh accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic libwe have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
All we are seeing is the folly of our it hatched from.0 -
IMHO, people with "extreme" views either are, or are close to, a majority of the electorate. I think this is the out working of the Great Financial Crash.
One sees a similar pattern in the USA, France, Italy, the Netherlands.0 -
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.0 -
Anything which involves transitioning from A to B is a project. You can't simply define B as the absence of A and expect anything good to happen.Luckyguy1983 said:
As you must surely realise, there is no such thing as 'delivering' a successful Brexit, or needing to do so. Brexit is not a thing, it is an absence of thing. It isn't a project, it is an absence of project.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?0 -
GE in 2019 still available at 2.34 on BF.0
-
Again, I largely agree. Where we differ, I guess, is that I don't see how being in the EU prevents any of this; while I think it is made much harder to do by taking ourselves out of the SM and CU, so making ourselves poorer and a much less attractive investment proposition.Alanbrooke said:
For what its worth I thinbk we need toSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s figures.
Only to address.
Many o moment.
- invest heavily in our own infrastructure - we have 2-3 decade gap to fill and its one of the reasons why both our productivity and GDP are sub optimal
- decentralise as a coiuntry and put more decision making down to regions where people can influence their own futures
- reform corporate and personal taxation to reflect the changes in economy
- make our priority raising GDP per head rather than just GDP
0 -
Like everything in life it is all relative. The working class is a bit of a wide definition sometimes mixed up with nostalgia. People can have all kinds of cultural capital that goes beyond their income.SouthamObserver said:
Out of interest, what's your definition of working and middle class? Presumably, you would consider anyone with a mobile phone or television assembled by poorly paid, exploited workers in the third world as middle class, so are there actually any working class people left in the UK?another_richard said:
There's always been various levels of exploitation but your modern middle class mentality regards itself self-righteously as 'progresssive' and morally superior to the proles.kyf_100 said:
Modern?another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
While still being dependent upon mass exploitation for its own living standards and lifestyle.
This is more accurate but even then it is only useful at generalising not at individuals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade
D has been utterly eviscerated by young motivated healthy migrants, the national living wage was as much as a ceiling as it was a floor. C2 and C1 can effectively organise in certain circumstances to mitigate against migration reducing the demand for their skills.0 -
One would also need to exclude Mark Francois, David Lammy, and Guto Bebb from that.Recidivist said:
That's a very good point and I think most people who come to prominence in public life have somewhat above average intellectual capabilities. (Giles Fraser being of course the exception.)Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.0 -
I think I agree - the extremism isn’t necessarily going in one direction though. We have two sets of Manicheans in each country, each dividing the world on a dualistic basis to a side that can do no wrong and a side that can go no right.Sean_F said:IMHO, people with "extreme" views either are, or are close to, a majority of the electorate. I think this is the out working of the Great Financial Crash.
One sees a similar pattern in the USA, France, Italy, the Netherlands.0 -
That's pretty much what Labour members do as well. They certainly have very little say over policy, as the party's current Brexit position demonstrates.notme2 said:
You misunderstand how the conservative party functions with its membership. We choose our leader (sometimes) and we choose our MPs and put leaflets through the door for them. The involvement ends largely there.SouthamObserver said:
And I was a Labour member who rejected the anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism of the far left. I lost and so have you, I'm afraid. There are good, moderate Tory members, just as there are still good, moderate Labour members. But the direction of travel in both parties is clear.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do not judge all of us as ERG supporters. I am a conservative member who rejects their views of the unattainable aims of no dealSouthamObserver said:
Your friends have lost.Recidivist said:
Ioint other than it is very easy for your personal experiences to be misleading.Mortimer said:
Were than their preceding generations.williamglenn said:
A corollary of your argument is that the Conservative party only has a future as a pro-European party, otherwise it will always be on the back foot.RoyalBlue said:
As since 2016.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ahem.RoyalBlue said:Have been reflecting on Brexit.
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Brexit as failed revolution. I’ve been saying it for months, if not years!
The Conservative party is 80% + Eurosceptic. This used to be just the membership - since the Brexit vote it has been their vote, too.
Revoke will never happen because of this; long delay is death by a thousand cuts (the deepest of which would be the MEP elections).
The Conservative party is now pre-2016 UKIP: hard right, deeply anti-EU, xenophobic and English nationalist. All those vying to take over from May know this very clearly.
0 -
Id say thats frustration rather than they hold intrinsically extreme views. The voters are still pissed of from a combination of one rule for the rich ( Cameron really should have sent some of his mates to jail ) and having their views ignored.Sean_F said:IMHO, people with "extreme" views either are, or are close to, a majority of the electorate. I think this is the out working of the Great Financial Crash.
One sees a similar pattern in the USA, France, Italy, the Netherlands.0 -
That's a lot, but clicking a button does not require much effort, any more than voting in a Daily Mail poll. The five million are very representative of middle class left wing Britain, but that limits their influence in the Conservatives.rural_voter said:
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.0 -
Yeah, okay.Sean_F said:
One would also need to exclude Mark Francois, David Lammy, and Guto Bebb from that.Recidivist said:
That's a very good point and I think most people who come to prominence in public life have somewhat above average intellectual capabilities. (Giles Fraser being of course the exception.)Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.0 -
Marx defined the working class or proletariat as individuals who sell their labour power for wages and who do not own the means of production. That would encompass nearly all of what we would describe as the middle class. I’m a salaried partner (i.e. I have no equity) in a City law firm which, as I love to point out to socialist friends, technically makes me working class too.notme2 said:
Like everything in life it is all relative. The working class is a bit of a wide definition sometimes mixed up with nostalgia. People can have all kinds of cultural capital that goes beyond their income.SouthamObserver said:
Out of interest, what's your definition of working and middle class? Presumably, you would consider anyone with a mobile phone or television assembled by poorly paid, exploited workers in the third world as middle class, so are there actually any working class people left in the UK?another_richard said:
There's always been various levels of exploitation but your modern middle class mentality regards itself self-righteously as 'progresssive' and morally superior to the proles.kyf_100 said:
Modern?another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
While still being dependent upon mass exploitation for its own living standards and lifestyle.
This is more accurate but even then it is only useful at generalising not at individuals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade
D has been utterly eviscerated by young motivated healthy migrants, the national living wage was as much as a ceiling as it was a floor. C2 and C1 can effectively organise in certain circumstances to mitigate against migration reducing the demand for their skills.0 -
The ansence of cancer? The absence of a prison cell? The absence of an abusive partner? Those are all absences with intrinsic merit.williamglenn said:
Anything which involves transitioning from A to B is a project. You can't simply define B as the absence of A and expect anything good to happen.Luckyguy1983 said:
As you must surely realise, there is no such thing as 'delivering' a successful Brexit, or needing to do so. Brexit is not a thing, it is an absence of thing. It isn't a project, it is an absence of project.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?0 -
My children went, in the 70's, to a fairly large comprehensive school, my elder son leaving at 16 for an engineering apprenticeship. Life, as it does, has gone on, and he is in a senior management position with a major sports company. Now someone has written to all the 'Class of 79" inviting thm for a 40 year reunion.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
It's to be held in a venue which, quite frankly he would normally expect to go to for such an event, and at a price much lower than he would expect to pay. He's wondering.
0 -
I'm being a pendent here but there is a little more effort (not much I grant you) required.Sean_F said:
That's a lot, but clicking a button does not require much effort, any more than voting in a Daily Mail poll. The five million are very representative of middle class left wing Britain, but that limits their influence in the Conservatives.rural_voter said:
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.0 -
Indeed.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
Yet recruitment in the 18-30 age group in engineering is not easy either for manual or office jobs.
There might be a reduction in those starter jobs you mentioned but there seems to be a reduction in the number of young people who want those jobs which remain.0 -
the EU is simply a side issue whether were in or out makes little difference economically imo.SouthamObserver said:
Again, I largely agree. Where we differ, I guess, is that I don't see how being in the EU prevents any of this; while I think it is made much harder to do by taking ourselves out of the SM and CU, so making ourselves poorer and a much less attractive investment proposition.Alanbrooke said:
For what its worth I thinbk we need toSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s figures.
Only to address.
Many o moment.
- invest heavily in our own infrastructure - we have 2-3 decade gap to fill and its one of the reasons why both our productivity and GDP are sub optimal
- decentralise as a coiuntry and put more decision making down to regions where people can influence their own futures
- reform corporate and personal taxation to reflect the changes in economy
- make our priority raising GDP per head rather than just GDP
being out probably gives us a bit more leeway on what we can do to suit ourselves though has some downsides too. The Brexit vote was one of the few occasions where the people could kick the politicans, the other one perhaps ironically is EU Parlt votes as no-one thinks theyre that important. The popular vote to take us out was a jugement on our political class performance and told them they were failing.
0 -
TM is subject to the HOC and it will be upto the HOCrural_voter said:
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.
However, I do agree that neither the conservative or labour parties will support revoke without a referendum, no matter how many sign the revoke petition. The biggest roadblock for your course of action now is Corbyn, and many on his front bench, who do not support a referendum, hence why he was hiding in Morecambe yesterday and making a fool of himself with a large dog0 -
Trouble is they wanted Brexit but had no Bwilliamglenn said:
Anything which involves transitioning from A to B is a project. You can't simply define B as the absence of A and expect anything good to happen.Luckyguy1983 said:
As you must surely realise, there is no such thing as 'delivering' a successful Brexit, or needing to do so. Brexit is not a thing, it is an absence of thing. It isn't a project, it is an absence of project.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?0 -
The bailout of the bankers being the key turning point.Sean_F said:IMHO, people with "extreme" views either are, or are close to, a majority of the electorate. I think this is the out working of the Great Financial Crash.
One sees a similar pattern in the USA, France, Italy, the Netherlands.
One law for the rich etc.0 -
I agree not just here with No Deal Tories and Kippers and Corbyn Labour and the hardliners within the SNP and DUP but in the US with Trump Republicans and Sanders Democrats or Germany with AfD and Die Linke voters, Italy with Five Star and Lega Nord voters, France with Le Pen and Melenchon voters, Spain with Podemos and Vox and Popular Party voters, Sweden with the Swedish Democrats, Greece with Syriza and Golden Dawn, the Netherlands with Wilders and Forum for Democracy etc. Canada, Australia and New Zealand and Ireland are less immune at least in terms of mainstream politics (though Australia has One Nation up to about 10% of the vote now) but even there extremists are present as recent events in New Zealand provedSean_F said:IMHO, people with "extreme" views either are, or are close to, a majority of the electorate. I think this is the out working of the Great Financial Crash.
One sees a similar pattern in the USA, France, Italy, the Netherlands.0 -
Simple question; can anyone direct me to figures which tell me how many there are in each age-group today, and were ten year intervals since WWII.another_richard said:
Indeed.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
Yet recruitment in the 18-30 age group in engineering is not easy either for manual or office jobs.
There might be a reduction in those starter jobs you mentioned but there seems to be a reduction in the number of young people who want those jobs which remain.0 -
He went to Morecambe but it wasn't Wise. As someone said on twitterBig_G_NorthWales said:
TM is subject to the HOC and it will be upto the HOCrural_voter said:
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.
However, I do agree that neither the conservative or labour parties will support revoke without a referendum, no matter how many sign the revoke petition. The biggest roadblock for your course of action now is Corbyn, and many on his front bench, who do not support a referendum, hence why he was hiding in Morecambe yesterday and making a fool of himself with a large dog0 -
Cheers. So we are talking about 15% of the population, essentially: Corbyn's left behind. Most people are either skilled working class or middle class.notme2 said:
Like everything in life it is all relative. The working class is a bit of a wide definition sometimes mixed up with nostalgia. People can have all kinds of cultural capital that goes beyond their income.SouthamObserver said:
Out of interest, what's your definition of working and middle class? Presumably, you would consider anyone with a mobile phone or television assembled by poorly paid, exploited workers in the third world as middle class, so are there actually any working class people left in the UK?another_richard said:
There's always been various levels of exploitation but your modern middle class mentality regards itself self-righteously as 'progresssive' and morally superior to the proles.kyf_100 said:
Modern?another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
While still being dependent upon mass exploitation for its own living standards and lifestyle.
This is more accurate but even then it is only useful at generalising not at individuals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade
D has been utterly eviscerated by young motivated healthy migrants, the national living wage was as much as a ceiling as it was a floor. C2 and C1 can effectively organise in certain circumstances to mitigate against migration reducing the demand for their skills.
0 -
May's deal is deader than a dodoGardenwalker said:
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.0 -
Damian Green seems to be out of place in that list. I thought he was a Remain supporter. I would be surprised if he has switched to No Deal.nico67 said:
Embrace no deal ! More delusional nonsense if they think MPs will allow that .williamglenn said:0 -
Neither major party will accept the use of a petition to drive / revoke policy as it would form a precedent to restrict future governments from undertaking contentious policies.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM is subject to the HOC and it will be upto the HOCrural_voter said:
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.
However, I do agree that neither the conservative or labour parties will support revoke without a referendum, no matter how many sign the revoke petition. The biggest roadblock for your course of action now is Corbyn, and many on his front bench, who do not support a referendum, hence why he was hiding in Morecambe yesterday and making a fool of himself with a large dog
Applying the same principle to referendums: the Swiss model of referendums acts as a socially conservative brake on society by restricting government policy. As a result some social conservatives here could see their use as great for the UK but progressives would hate them.0 -
Yes as the photo of him with Eric's statue demonstratedIanB2 said:
He went to Morecambe but it wasn't Wise. As someone said on twitterBig_G_NorthWales said:
TM is subject to the HOC and it will be upto the HOCrural_voter said:
At the current rate the petition might have reached 5M by tomorrow morning or midday. That's like >10% of registered voters asking for Brexit to be 'recalled'. I don't see how even tin-eared Theresa can refuse Watson's offer yesterday in Parliament Square to approve the deal subject to a ratifying referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not the answer and will not happen unless through a referendumrural_voter said:
She didn't. She tried for a compromise among the 52% and ignored the 48%. She's now wasted 33 months. F*** her.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exitkle4 said:I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
BTW this morning the petition for Revoke - not just a Ratifying Referendum - has got to 4.9 million whereas I heard on R4 yesterday that one urging a No Deal exit had got to 490,000.
However, I do agree that neither the conservative or labour parties will support revoke without a referendum, no matter how many sign the revoke petition. The biggest roadblock for your course of action now is Corbyn, and many on his front bench, who do not support a referendum, hence why he was hiding in Morecambe yesterday and making a fool of himself with a large dog0 -
Be nice if they used them now and again instead of playing dumber than dumb.Recidivist said:
That's a very good point and I think most people who come to prominence in public life have somewhat above average intellectual capabilities. (Giles Fraser being of course the exception.)Mortimer said:
The growth of calling public figures ‘stupid’ or ‘an idiot’ fails to appreciate that their public pronouncements always have multiple contexts, rather than existing in an intellectual vacuum.kle4 said:
He's an idiot. No sensible person could think that there is time to consult the members now. I'm actually worried for mps who think otherwise, i cannot conceive of how theyd think it appropriate in these circumstances, it frightens me they could think that .HYUFD said:IDS on Marr calls the idea of a Remainer 'cabinet cabal' to replace the PM and install their own leader 'appalling' and that Tory backbenchers will force the Tory membership to be consulted on the next Tory leader. Says May should sack some of the Cabinet too
Let me give you a little context for comments like this: Tory associations need to have AGMS by the end of March; much recent posturing is inextricably linked to this. MPs can’t stand up and say ‘we won’t give you a vote in this leadership election either’.0 -
There were plans out there but the government / civil service didn't use any of them. Even if DExEU had followed such a plan, Olly Robbins and the PM would have still gone with their own plan from the Bunker.IanB2 said:
Trouble is they wanted Brexit but had no Bwilliamglenn said:
Anything which involves transitioning from A to B is a project. You can't simply define B as the absence of A and expect anything good to happen.Luckyguy1983 said:
As you must surely realise, there is no such thing as 'delivering' a successful Brexit, or needing to do so. Brexit is not a thing, it is an absence of thing. It isn't a project, it is an absence of project.williamglenn said:
If a political consensus is a necessary condition for delivering a successful Brexit, the last three years show that it doesn't exist and is unlikely to ever exist.alex. said:
It hasn't been remotely tested to destruction. What has been tested to destruction is the ability of MPs to agree a form of Brexit in the circumstances where a large proportion don't accept that Brexit should happen. We're staying in the EU because the MPs can't agree if or how to leave is not testing Brexit to destruction. For it to be tested to destruction it has to happen in one form or another.williamglenn said:
That was the 52/48 win for Remain in 2016 scenario, but that ship has sailed. Instead it went the other way, and Brexit was tested to destruction as a viable political project.kyf_100 said:LBJ famously said it is better to be inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. But if we remain I suspect our relationship with the EU will be one of us inside the tent, pissing all over the walls, the sleeping bags, and our fellow members. Particularly when we elect a load of hardline nationalists. Don't think it can happen? Look north of the border to see what happens when a nation narrowly decides to "remain" and isn't happy about it...
It's easy to say that May didn't do enough "reaching out to remainers". But how many remainers are opposing the deal because they genuinely think she could have done better (as opposed to just opposing it because 'it's not as good as remain' - with the implication that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for - even though that was the main argument made by them during the referendum)?0 -
It would look that way but IDS this morning seemed to be blinking and others maybemalcolmg said:
May's deal is deader than a dodoGardenwalker said:
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.
Like everything in brexit, expect the unexpected0 -
The current is hereOldKingCole said:
Simple question; can anyone direct me to figures which tell me how many there are in each age-group today, and were ten year intervals since WWII.another_richard said:
Indeed.SouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
Yet recruitment in the 18-30 age group in engineering is not easy either for manual or office jobs.
There might be a reduction in those starter jobs you mentioned but there seems to be a reduction in the number of young people who want those jobs which remain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom
For the historic you'd need to interrogate the ONS website0 -
He is.Richard_Tyndall said:
Damian Green seems to be out of place in that list. I thought he was a Remain supporter. I would be surprised if he has switched to No Deal.nico67 said:
Embrace no deal ! More delusional nonsense if they think MPs will allow that .williamglenn said:
He is also a friend of 40 years standing - and will give it to her straight.
If he says the game is up, it is - though I suspect as he heartily loathes the other attendees he'll try to suggest a way out.0 -
And that's how Boris Johnson can get away with saying "fuck business."another_richard said:
The bailout of the bankers being the key turning point.Sean_F said:IMHO, people with "extreme" views either are, or are close to, a majority of the electorate. I think this is the out working of the Great Financial Crash.
One sees a similar pattern in the USA, France, Italy, the Netherlands.
One law for the rich etc.0 -
The common denominator is they are all against TM dealRichard_Tyndall said:
Damian Green seems to be out of place in that list. I thought he was a Remain supporter. I would be surprised if he has switched to No Deal.nico67 said:
Embrace no deal ! More delusional nonsense if they think MPs will allow that .williamglenn said:0 -
Not something (UBI) that could be introduced in the EU (except at EU level)Pulpstar said:
You run your finances like Norway has done then use the dividends of the sovereign wealth fund as a universal basic incomeSouthamObserver said:
I agree. So what is the solution?Alanbrooke said:
I had a beer with two friends both remainers, one a retired legal partner, the other a retired actuary, We all share the same council estate background. None of us see how we could have got to the positions we got to if we were teenagers today. The current mesh of leaving people with no hope of moving on is simply the bag of misery you want us all to accept. People quite rightly wont accept it.Gardenwalker said:
Tiresome.another_richard said:
EU membership being a negative for the working class is regarded as a good thing by much of the middle class.isam said:Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
The modern middle class lifestyle is dependent upon exploitation.
Why you perhaps mean to say is that automation and offshoring has caused a collapse in the abundance of higher skilled and well paid working class jobs - the jobs that once lifted individuals and families toward a middle class existence.
Thus, the job market has bifurcated into a low skill/low paid tier, and a professional/high paid tier.
Britain’s relative economic liberalisation - and the lack of any countervening industrial policies per Alanbrooke - mean we are perhaps further down this path than some of our European neighbours. Important to add, though, that perhaps for similar reasons we have globally high employment figures.
Only from a Marxist perspective, are the middle classes “exploitative”. The issues are really due to deep changes in the global economy and not easy to address.
Many of the jobs that those who are now in senior managerial positions now started off in are mechanised - and that is not going to change. In my own field, when I started people subscribed to B2B newsletters, written by journalists, edited by subs, put together by a production team, type-set externally, printed externally and distributed solely for a UK audience. Dozens were involved int he process. Now all of it can be done on one computer by one person, the put on the internet to be seen globally in a moment.
0 -
I expect a GE.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It would look that way but IDS this morning seemed to be blinking and others maybemalcolmg said:
May's deal is deader than a dodoGardenwalker said:
I suspect the will of the Commons is for a referendum on May’s deal, even though this has been voted down already.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If they find a majority it is the will of the HOCnico67 said:Barclay sinking fast ! So the government will ignore the Commons even if by a miracle they find a majority for something !
I don’t believe any or many Tories are going to go for May’s Deal plus Customs Union, whereas Norway requires something like May’s Deal first to get there.
Like everything in brexit, expect the unexpected0
a cracker
This discussion has been closed.