Not sure Marr has been lucky in landing Starmer and IDS as guests on this critical weekend. Perhaps Sturgeon will have something interesting to say, if she can talk to a bigger picture than her domestic one?
I really don't understand this 'ourselves alone' attitude. Look where it got the Irish Republic until it opened up in the 60's and 70's and became part of the EU. I know they had major problems at the time of the financial crash, but they seem to have recovered, and whatevr the detail of individual's financial situation they seem to be generally confident in themselves. We cannot say that we are!
Perhaps a little wordy for a Sunday morning. For those Stretford Enders without the intellectual rigour to read the full script I've laid out the main discussion points below;
Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.
British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.
Mr. Glenn, if we end up remaining the political shift will be to ensure that Islington's wisdom is never again contravened by the unwashed masses from the 'provinces'.
No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.
They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.
Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.
I agree with all that. The divide is really unhealthy, and needs to be addressed immediately somehow. The problem for the other half of the population is that my half pays most of the taxes, runs all of the institutions and makes all of the little decisions in the public and private sphere that determine the direction of the country. Getting that group to formulate all the plans and pay for the implementation of something that goes against everything they believe in was always going to be difficult. You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.
the signs of social fracture have been there for ages for those who could be bothered to look. When you have whole chunks of the country stagnating and the powers that be caring little about it, then its eventually going to come out in the body politic. Those gaining from globalisation did next to nothing to coompensate for its impact - except put the extra money in their pockets and shout down any expression of discontent.
The reality is of course no lessons have been learned and a return to the EU would simply be business as usual for them, while the underlying problems bubble hotter and come to the surface in another way.
Actually Labour spent loads of London money trying to compensate the losers from globalisation, but after 2010 that was mostly dismantled as unaffordable by the coalition and then Conservative governments. Brexit will only make it harder to deal with the divisions created by globalisation, since the EU is itself designed to help shelter Europe from globalisation, Brexit is a massive drain of policymakers' time, money and attention, and Brexiteers' policy programme is mostly for more globalisation not less.
Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.
British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.
I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
It is relatively easy for the government to oppose a further referendum, but this should really give food for thought to the Brexiteers, and to the EU27 governments. You don't know what you've got until its gone.
Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.
British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.
"It would herald a politics where the dominant theme was addressing the issues that led to 2016 to make sure we never go through this again."
I admire your optimism. Let's take Boston as an example. The population has greatly increased over a relatively short time. Poles and Lithuanians are young and have families. Addressing the issues, such as building more schools and bringing in more translators won't happen overnight. And where is the political will to do it?
Far cheaper to say "Suck it up, you racist Neanderthals."
No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.
They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.
Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.
I agree with all that. The divide is really unhealthy, and needs to be addr happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.
the signs of social fracture have been there for of discontent.
The reality is of course no lessons have been learned and a return to the EU would simply be business as usual for them, while the underlying problems bubble hotter and come to the surface in another way.
Actually Labour spent loads of London money trying to compensate the losers from globalisation, but after 2010 that was mostly dismantled as unaffordable by the coalition and then Conservative governments. Brexit will only make it harder to deal with the divisions created by globalisation, since the EU is itself designed to help shelter Europe from globalisation, Brexit is a massive drain of policymakers' time, money and attention, and Brexiteers' policy programme is mostly for more globalisation not less.
Im afraid thats just nonsense
what people lost was in no way compensated by "London" money. The butchering of manufacturing in the Midlands and North didnt replace high paying jobs, wages stagnated under Labour, no sizeable investments were made in infrastructure and while Mandelson was getting filthy rich.
People dont want charity, they want sensible jobs and to date none of the parties has anything in store to address that.
Not sure Marr has been lucky in landing Starmer and IDS as guests on this critical weekend. Perhaps Sturgeon will have something interesting to say, if she can talk to a bigger picture than her domestic one?
She talked to a bigger picture at the March yesterday and was very impressive.
I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
It is relatively easy for the government to oppose a further referendum, but this should really give food for thought to the Brexiteers, and to the EU27 governments. You don't know what you've got until its gone.
It used to be considered a bit nerdy to fly the EU flag. Yesterday's March may have altered that.
Yes. Casino's post has prompted me to send off for one; they aren't that expensive at the flag and bunting store. I look forward to hanging it up on the day Brexit is abandoned or, failing that, saving it until we rejoin
Why not throw it back at the EU? We know the Brady amendment passes, so put a sunset clause in the W.A. and pass it.
How can the EU then possibly justify choosing no backstop at all, and no money, over 38 billion and say an 8 year backstop?
If they still say no then it will be clear to all European electorates where the blame really lies, and provides a much better basis for the U.K. government both domestically and internationally to proceed with a no deal.
Mr. Royale, don't count your coups before they hatch.
Speaking of hatching, our baby is easily the best thing I've ever done and the most positive thing I could ever dream to imagine would happen to me in 2019.
Maybe I'll go focus on her instead.
Laters.
Congratulations. I hope she enjoyed your reading of the 34 Dalmatians last night?
Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.
British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.
The problem isn't the chlorination per se (supermarket salad is washed in chlorine after all), but the problems the US is trying to compensate for (or hide) by doing it.
Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.
British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.
But they don't eat them afterwards
And there are any health risks associated with this process, or taste changes?
The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.
It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.
Yes, it's extremely depressing.
Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.
I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.
It hasn't exactly worked out like that.
To me it's striking how much of the old-fashioned UK unionist rhetoric about transcending narrow nationalism is transferable to a strong pro-EU position. I think if you could just overcome your aversion to the flag, you'd be surprised how much you have in common with the core values of the people who marched yesterday.
Yes, I think the way Brexit has regenerated real European enthusiasm (a demos, you might say) in parts of Britain is quite remarkable. My dad - a child of WW2 - was a big supporter, member of the European Movement, etc. - after he died we set up an essay prize for the EM in his memory. I used to think his passion a little quaint, since obviously we were part of Europe, no need to make a fuss about it. I now see his point.
Let Scotland go its own way and split England along a North/South divide. Where should the split be? We'll let the South have Brum because they're miserable by nature, and they can have Norfolk too because we already have enough fingers.
An unexpected pleasure yesterday was being able to sing An Die Freude with a bunch of others who also knew the words. Maybe I'd just bumped in to the Beethoven Against Brexit crowd, but it was good fun anyway.
I really don't understand this 'ourselves alone' attitude. Look where it got the Irish Republic until it opened up in the 60's and 70's and became part of the EU. I know they had major problems at the time of the financial crash, but they seem to have recovered, and whatevr the detail of individual's financial situation they seem to be generally confident in themselves. We cannot say that we are!
Having spent a few days in Dublin in January I'd agree with this (although they do see the potential for a new crash coming). As a Brit it was also salutary seeing how expensive things were at the £/€ exchange rate; a glimpse of our future in the second tier. And very different from my previous visit when stuff in Ireland was generally cheaper.
Perhaps that's what the next generation want, but for me it's very depressing. If all Conservatism means is just good stewardship of the national finances and day-to-day administration and otherwise abrogating any leadership of the national debate (and I admit, to many, that's all they want) then politics no longer holds any real interest for me.
It's an interesting viewpoint but what are the alternatives? I certainly would not want the Tory party to follow the path taken by the Republican party in the US. What policies do you want them to propose that they are not?
I am a Conservative voter (or at least I have been up to now) but I don't want radical attacks on the welfare state, indeed the harshness of the reforms on disability for example offend me as does the incompetence with which UC has been introduced. I certainly don't want the equivalent of US Evangelicals having any say on social policy. I am not up for another wave of privatisations, the recent experience of private sector involvement in the provision of public services has not been a success on any measure. What do I want?
* Sound public finances and reduced government debt (as a share of GDP). *Efficient and effective public services which are adequately funded to meet the challenges we have given to them. *The application of our laws to all and for all. Having some of our citizens treated as second class because of "cultural sensitivity" is unacceptable. *A society that is, so far as possible, left to get on with their own lives without politicians thinking we need new laws on everything all the time. * A society that is compassionate about those in need.
I accept it is not the most ambitious list. One might say it is almost conservative.
To be fair they are not looking to connect with people the next fortnight. They need a fall guy to see through the inevitable soft Brexit proposal and long extension, and then, well, fall.
The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.
It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.
Yes, it's extremely depressing.
Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.
I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.
It hasn't exactly worked out like that.
Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.
Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:
There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.
This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.
Can't one be, for example, a patriotic Scot and pro the Union? Some, I know, would say No, but othrs would say Yes.
On a more general point, thanks to Ms Cyclefree for another useful and thoughtful survey of our rather depressing current political situation.
My wife most certainly is a patriotic Scot and very pro the Union
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
Yes, I agree from the opposite perspective - in general when I canvass I feel optimistic when the door is answered by a middle-aged person who is obviously middle-class but not especially smartly-dressed - they are absolutely the core Labour group now. Working-class support for Labour has retreated to the loyalist traditionalists, though others aren't reliably Tory either - many just don't vote, and are a potential seed bed for right-wing populism. I worry about the latter, but the former feels very much like my peer group coming round.
If you think May is a populist just wait until if Boris wins the Tory leadership, then in a Boris v Corbyn battle both parties really would be led by populists
"It would herald a politics where the dominant theme was addressing the issues that led to 2016 to make sure we never go through this again."
I admire your optimism. Let's take Boston as an example. The population has greatly increased over a relatively short time. Poles and Lithuanians are young and have families. Addressing the issues, such as building more schools and bringing in more translators won't happen overnight. And where is the political will to do it?
Far cheaper to say "Suck it up, you racist Neanderthals."
Do you need a special effort of political will to build or expand the schools when more people with kids move to an area? It sounds like a normal routine function of government. Is there evidence that it's not happening???
"It would herald a politics where the dominant theme was addressing the issues that led to 2016 to make sure we never go through this again."
I admire your optimism. Let's take Boston as an example. The population has greatly increased over a relatively short time. Poles and Lithuanians are young and have families. Addressing the issues, such as building more schools and bringing in more translators won't happen overnight. And where is the political will to do it?
Far cheaper to say "Suck it up, you racist Neanderthals."
Do you need a special effort of political will to build or expand the schools when more people with kids move to an area? It sounds like a normal routine function of government. Is there evidence that it's not happening???
There’s a lot of displacement. Waves of migration result in people selling their houses and moving to the outskirts of areas.
I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
It is relatively easy for the government to oppose a further referendum, but this should really give food for thought to the Brexiteers, and to the EU27 governments. You don't know what you've got until its gone.
Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.
British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.
The problem isn't the chlorination per se (supermarket salad is washed in chlorine after all), but the problems the US is trying to compensate for (or hide) by doing it.
the problem is the farming welfare standards but then the US is not exactly alone in having dubious standards, the EU hides its problems just as much as America
In all the hysteria around the Tory power grab little has been made of Tom Watson's less than subtle move for the heart of Labour. The odd news clips in France yesterday seemed to be full of him and with his Brummie accent overlaid in French he looked quite the European
Fines have been handed out to both sides of the Brexit referendum. My sense is that Leave got more and higher fines but I can't find a fact checked definitive list anywhere, does anybody know of one?
The difference is that a couple of organisations associated with Remain were fined for technical reporting breaches, while Aaron Bank's Leave.eu campaign was found to have been in gross violation of electoral rules. The Electoral Commission regretted they didn't have available sanctions to match the seriousness of the offences. The other Vote Leave campaign was relatively clean, I believe
I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.
They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.
One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.
It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
At the last general election, even after the Brexit vote, the Tories still won middle class professional ABs but by less than in 2015 while they won skilled working class C2s by more than they had in 2015. Lower middle class C1s were tied and Labour won unskilled working class DEs as they usually do.
So to win the Tories need a coalition of the professional middle classes and skilled working classes, which really means they need to deliver Brexit to keep the latter but not in so hard a form to turn off the former
That is one reason I am suspicious of these reports -- that and that they seem to be unclear whether it is a done deal for Lidington or whether Gove and Hunt are in the running. There is a difference between planning a coup and idle Cabinet chatter that someone else should plan one.
If you think May is a populist just wait until if Boris wins the Tory leadership, then in a Boris v Corbyn battle both parties really would be led by populists
As you know I am fiercely opposed to Boris as PM and conservative mps have threatened to resign in those circumstances. However, if he is elected through the membership and those mps resign, thereby losing the whip, I would expect Boris to call an immediate GE and those mps would not be able to stand as the conservative candidate
I do not want this to happen and if Boris is really wanting to win the prize he needs to come out now in support of TM deal and stop alienating so many conservative mps. If he wants to lead he has to show leadership now
In all the hysteria around the Tory power grab little has been made of Tom Watson's less than subtle move for the heart of Labour. The odd news clips in France yesterday seemed to be full of him and with his Brummie accent overlaid in French he looked quite the European
Tom Watsons from Yorkshire, hes as Brummie as you are
what people lost was in no way compensated by "London" money. The butchering of manufacturing in the Midlands and North didnt replace high paying jobs, wages stagnated under Labour, no sizeable investments were made in infrastructure and while Mandelson was getting filthy rich.
People dont want charity, they want sensible jobs and to date none of the parties has anything in store to address that.
Because governments can't just magic high paying private sector jobs into existence. The loss of manufacturing jobs reflected ongoing productivity increases in the sector, the accession of China into the WTO and the high value of GBP - and only the latter could be blamed in any part on the government of the day (because they ran what were seen as sensible economic policies that boosted investor confidence). Labour's policies were perhaps too much of a sticking plaster, but compare Northern towns now with what they looked like in 2003 say and tell me that they were of no help at all.
And Brexit will help manufacturing how? Even Brexiteers' favourite economist, Patrick Minford, thinks that post Brexit the UK's manufacturing sector should disappear. That will go down like a bucket of cold sick in the Midlands and the North of England. Luckily, the Tory donors who paid for Brexit couldn't give two shits about that.
I have seen the change among my younger students. Students almost always connect with me on Facebook so they can use Messenger to ask me how to form the subjonctif plus-que-parfait of devoir rather than open a book.
Three or four years ago their typical FB feeds were almost completely apolitical. Today they are filled with the spiciest placards from yesterday's 1.2 million strong march.
"Whatever we did, whatever we said, we didn't mean it. We just want EU back for good." was my favourite.
Good comment. The country took a wrong turn with Brexit, which is turning out to be the failure it was always going to be. But if you are of a positive bent and want the best for your country where do you go from here?
Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.
I was at yesterday's march and also at the anti Iraq war march in 2003.
It is difficult to estimate numbers when you are actually in a march. I tried arithmetic - how many abreast, how far apart, at what speed and for how long. Came out at about a million plus or minus half a million. It was very sprawling. People were stationary for ages in Park Lane and it sprawled out at many junctions. There weren't pictures from the air in 2003 to compare with yesterday's pictures but my own best estimate is that yesterday's march had at least as many as the 2003 march, and probably more.
Do you think the ERG have worked out they blew it yet?
Yes I do think the ERG blew it. I voted remain but was reluctantly willing to accept the Deal as a soft Brexit appropriate to the narrow Leave victory.
But the splinter faction that is the ERG and the angry Tory members threatening riots if they don't get what they want have made me and a whole lot of others think again. 4.8 million have signed the petition and a hell of a lot of people in London yesterday.
Brexit's coat is on a shoogly nail as we say in Scotland.
Fines have been handed out to both sides of the Brexit referendum. My sense is that Leave got more and higher fines but I can't find a fact checked definitive list anywhere, does anybody know of one?
The difference is that a couple of organisations associated with Remain were fined for technical reporting breaches, while Aaron Bank's Leave.eu campaign was found to have been in gross violation of electoral rules. The Electoral Commission regretted they didn't have available sanctions to match the seriousness of the offences. The other Vote Leave campaign was relatively clean, I believe
“The other vote leave campaign”. You mean the actual Vote Leave campaign?
Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.
I reckon bigger than October, but not as big as the Anti war march, so the second and third largest political protests in British history.
In all the hysteria around the Tory power grab little has been made of Tom Watson's less than subtle move for the heart of Labour. The odd news clips in France yesterday seemed to be full of him and with his Brummie accent overlaid in French he looked quite the European
Tom Watsons from Yorkshire, hes as Brummie as you are
Interesting. So like so much about him even his accent is fake.
I suppose to the Irish Yorkshire and Birminham sounds the same- a sort of weird English?
Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.
There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.
The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.
I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.
30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.
Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.
This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.
It is relatively easy for the government to oppose a further referendum, but this should really give food for thought to the Brexiteers, and to the EU27 governments. You don't know what you've got until its gone.
It used to be considered a bit nerdy to fly the EU flag. Yesterday's March may have altered that.
Yes. Casino's post has prompted me to send off for one; they aren't that expensive at the flag and bunting store. I look forward to hanging it up on the day Brexit is abandoned or, failing that, saving it until we rejoin
The entrepreneurs were out in force and my wife suggested I buy one. Very large and only £1. To say I am not an exhibitionist is putting it mildly so I refrained. I regretted it and when we passed any of the stalls selling them they had all gone. Only all the tourist crap left.
Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.
I reckon bigger than October, but not as big as the Anti war march, so the second and third largest political protests in British history.
Wasn’t the biggest other one the anti fox hunting ban march? Hopefully the result will be the same.
I have seen the change among my younger students. Students almost always connect with me on Facebook so they can use Messenger to ask me how to form the subjonctif plus-que-parfait of devoir rather than open a book.
Three or four years ago their typical FB feeds were almost completely apolitical. Today they are filled with the spiciest placards from yesterday's 1.2 million strong march.
"Whatever we did, whatever we said, we didn't mean it. We just want EU back for good." was my favourite.
Good comment. The country took a wrong turn with Brexit, which is turning out to be the failure it was always going to be. But if you are of a positive bent and want the best for your country where do you go from here?
Accept the deal or probably Norway plus and then let it evolve as the EU face change themselves and draw closer as and when circumstances dictate over time
Waving flags (or better still putting them on a flagpole outside one’s house), national or supranational, remains a handy identifier for the waver being a self-righteous arse. Hope that helps.
Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.
I was at yesterday's march and also at the anti Iraq war march in 2003.
It is difficult to estimate numbers when you are actually in a march. I tried arithmetic - how many abreast, how far apart, at what speed and for how long. Came out at about a million plus or minus half a million. It was very sprawling. People were stationary for ages in Park Lane and it sprawled out at many junctions. There weren't pictures from the air in 2003 to compare with yesterday's pictures but my own best estimate is that yesterday's march had at least as many as the 2003 march, and probably more.
I wish the mobile phone companies would publish numbers on stuff like this - I bet with their data you could get an estimate to within 10%.
Do you think the ERG have worked out they blew it yet?
Yes I do think the ERG blew it. I voted remain but was reluctantly willing to accept the Deal as a soft Brexit appropriate to the narrow Leave victory.
But the splinter faction that is the ERG and the angry Tory members threatening riots if they don't get what they want have made me and a whole lot of others think again. 4.8 million have signed the petition and a hell of a lot of people in London yesterday.
Brexit's coat is on a shoogly nail as we say in Scotland.
(£) This weekend that judgment has gathered support across May’s cabinet and the party she has represented for more than 40 years. The speech was the capstone of a disastrous week — a culmination of flaws in the prime minister’s strategy and personality that have put her increasingly at odds with her ministers, MPs and parliament, presiding over a Downing Street team at war with itself, where key players are barely on speaking terms...senior Tories see a prime minister who has used secrecy and stubbornness to survive but whose every decision now sparks consequences she cannot control and whose authority has eroded to the point where her premiership has dissolved into coffin full of dreams.
what people lost was in no way compensated by "London" money. The butchering of manufacturing in the Midlands and North didnt replace high paying jobs, wages stagnated under Labour, no sizeable investments were made in infrastructure and while Mandelson was getting filthy rich.
People dont want charity, they want sensible jobs and to date none of the parties has anything in store to address that.
Because governments can't just magic high paying private sector jobs into existence. The loss of manufacturing jobs reflected ongoing productivity increases in the sector, the accession of China into the WTO and the high value of GBP - and only the latter could be blamed in any part on the government of the day (because they ran what were seen as sensible economic policies that boosted investor confidence). Labour's policies were perhaps too much of a sticking plaster, but compare Northern towns now with what they looked like in 2003 say and tell me that they were of no help at all.
And Brexit will help manufacturing how? Even Brexiteers' favourite economist, Patrick Minford, thinks that post Brexit the UK's manufacturing sector should disappear. That will go down like a bucket of cold sick in the Midlands and the North of England. Luckily, the Tory donors who paid for Brexit couldn't give two shits about that.
Again thats just nonsense,
The Blair government bet the farm on financial services and the "new" economy and lost. It held the pound high, penalised energy costs for manufacturing, did nothing to incentivise investment, encouraged takeovers of UK companies which we subsequently shut down and their order books offshored, wrecked the concept of a high skill high wage economy by throwing the doors open to cheap labour. And for the record the Conservatives havent been any better. But to say there was nothing the governmentcould do is just nonsense, it chose to do nothing.
In all the hysteria around the Tory power grab little has been made of Tom Watson's less than subtle move for the heart of Labour. The odd news clips in France yesterday seemed to be full of him and with his Brummie accent overlaid in French he looked quite the European
Tom Watsons from Yorkshire, hes as Brummie as you are
Interesting. So like so much about him even his accent is fake.
I suppose to the Irish Yorkshire and Birminham sounds the same- a sort of weird English?
all the english are weird to us , we dont like to pick out one group from another
Maurice Glasman’s Blue Labour was something I was excited about in the early Ed Miliband years, and I really enjoyed this interview by Giles Fraser, particularly his views on why EU membership is a negative for the working class
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
If we end up Remaining in a second referendum, it will be with a substantial part of the populace self-describing and voting as pro-Europeans. I would therefore expect the campaign for Euro membership to get underway swiftly, and for British exceptionalism in terms of not identifying as European to diminish.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
If you think May is a populist just wait until if Boris wins the Tory leadership, then in a Boris v Corbyn battle both parties really would be led by populists
As you know I am fiercely opposed to Boris as PM and conservative mps have threatened to resign in those circumstances. However, if he is elected through the membership and those mps resign, thereby losing the whip, I would expect Boris to call an immediate GE and those mps would not be able to stand as the conservative candidate
I do not want this to happen and if Boris is really wanting to win the prize he needs to come out now in support of TM deal and stop alienating so many conservative mps. If he wants to lead he has to show leadership now
Boris is focused on winning the Tory membership who increasingly favour No Deal
I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
If you think May is a populist just wait until if Boris wins the Tory leadership, then in a Boris v Corbyn battle both parties really would be led by populists
As you know I am fiercely opposed to Boris as PM and conservative mps have threatened to resign in those circumstances. However, if he is elected through the membership and those mps resign, thereby losing the whip, I would expect Boris to call an immediate GE and those mps would not be able to stand as the conservative candidate
I do not want this to happen and if Boris is really wanting to win the prize he needs to come out now in support of TM deal and stop alienating so many conservative mps. If he wants to lead he has to show leadership now
Boris is focused on winning the Tory membership who increasingly favour No Deal
He is not focussed on anything if at this time of crisis he does not show leadership
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
If we end up Remaining in a second referendum, it will be with a substantial part of the populace self-describing and voting as pro-Europeans. I would therefore expect the campaign for Euro membership to get underway swiftly, and for British exceptionalism in terms of not identifying as European to diminish.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
Ahem.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.
Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.
No, either way is fine. There are now two options that are clearly understood, they can be legislated for before the vote, whichever way it goes it can be delivered.
Fir you it's fine. But for a long time most of the peoples vote crowd have justified what they want on the grounds of changing opinion, they only want it because they think they will win. If they thought otherwise most would not want one at all.
Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.
I was at yesterday's march and also at the anti Iraq war march in 2003.
It is difficult to estimate numbers when you are actually in a march. I tried arithmetic - how many abreast, how far apart, at what speed and for how long. Came out at about a million plus or minus half a million. It was very sprawling. People were stationary for ages in Park Lane and it sprawled out at many junctions. There weren't pictures from the air in 2003 to compare with yesterday's pictures but my own best estimate is that yesterday's march had at least as many as the 2003 march, and probably more.
I wish the mobile phone companies would publish numbers on stuff like this - I bet with their data you could get an estimate to within 10%.
Apparently the networks couldn't cope and a lot of people had no connection
I think the idea that the logjam in parliament might not have occurred if May had involved them sooner is rather fanciful. Why has it occurred? Because of inflexible leaver ultras and die hard remainers. Theres no reason to suspect asking them things sooner would have led to more urgency from them.
And the casualty is TM who tried to reflect the 52/48 vote with the least worst exit
If you think May is a populist just wait until if Boris wins the Tory leadership, then in a Boris v Corbyn battle both parties really would be led by populists
As you know I am fiercely opposed to Boris as PM and conservative mps have threatened to resign in those circumstances. However, if he is elected through the membership and those mps resign, thereby losing the whip, I would expect Boris to call an immediate GE and those mps would not be able to stand as the conservative candidate
I do not want this to happen and if Boris is really wanting to win the prize he needs to come out now in support of TM deal and stop alienating so many conservative mps. If he wants to lead he has to show leadership now
Boris is focused on winning the Tory membership who increasingly favour No Deal
He is not focussed on anything if at this time of crisis he does not show leadership
A good header, but there is a simpler explanation. Mrs May isn't a very good politician but she is consistent - a little like 'ol Bonehead in Labour tries to be. She remains at heart a Remainer, but possibly a little shocked by the referendum result, has genuinely decided to honour it.
Her negotiations yielded her what seemed to be a result acceptable to both sides. However she underestimated the extremism on the ERG side and the ambition of the Remain side. The former want a clean break, the latter to reverse the referendum result. She also under-estimated Labour's aim to prevent her claiming any credit.
As we probably agree, she's a bad politician. That doesn't make her bad, merely naïve and unsuited to the job
Nasty self seeking out of touch with the people no user more like. Interested only in her own ends and to hell with the country. The sooner she is gone the better.
Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.
I was at yesterday's march and also at the anti Iraq war march in 2003.
It is difficult to estimate numbers when you are actually in a march. I tried arithmetic - how many abreast, how far apart, at what speed and for how long. Came out at about a million plus or minus half a million. It was very sprawling. People were stationary for ages in Park Lane and it sprawled out at many junctions. There weren't pictures from the air in 2003 to compare with yesterday's pictures but my own best estimate is that yesterday's march had at least as many as the 2003 march, and probably more.
I wish the mobile phone companies would publish numbers on stuff like this - I bet with their data you could get an estimate to within 10%.
Apparently the networks couldn't cope and a lot of people had no connection
There were huge numbers at the march, even upto one million, and it may have some influence but I despair that any of the mps have changed from their own entrenched views
Seems a bit bad-tempered this morning. How can anyone be upset when David Lidington is being tipped to take over as Prime Minister?
We dont all have bets on him.
If his plan is to labour Brexit I'd be all for it not because I like labour but because it means we get a resolution, but I dont see how he would manage it - theoretically the numbers are there but he never get it through cabinet or to the commons.
If you think May is a populist just wait until if Boris wins the Tory leadership, then in a Boris v Corbyn battle both parties really would be led by populists
As you know I am fiercely opposed to Boris as PM and conservative mps have threatened to resign in those circumstances. However, if he is elected through the membership and those mps resign, thereby losing the whip, I would expect Boris to call an immediate GE and those mps would not be able to stand as the conservative candidate
I do not want this to happen and if Boris is really wanting to win the prize he needs to come out now in support of TM deal and stop alienating so many conservative mps. If he wants to lead he has to show leadership now
Boris is focused on winning the Tory membership who increasingly favour No Deal
He is not focussed on anything if at this time of crisis he does not show leadership
The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.
It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.
Yes, it's extremely depressing.
Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.
I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.
It hasn't exactly worked out like that.
Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.
Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:
There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.
This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.
But Heseltine himself gives you the answer. The world is changing and history doesn't run backwards.
"We are here, now, on the right side of history. In a shrinking world, of global terrorism, international tax avoidance, millisecond communication, giant corporations, superpowers, mass migration, climate change and a host of other threats, our duty is to build on our achievements, to maintain our access to the corridors of world power, to keep our place at the centre of the stages of the world"
History does run backwards sometimes. It's not a march toward some enlightened ideal
King Cole, those are different kettles of fish, though.
The political settlement of Scotland has, in broad terms, been around for three centuries. More recently, power has devolved from the centre to Holyrood. The exact opposite process is happening with nation-states and the EU. Those are two very significant differences.
Not only that, we've had two public votes about the fate of Scotland in the UK, and the UK in the EU.
MD, very little power has devolved, only the bits and pieces that do not matter. The union will not last as long as England treats Scotland like crap, and May has been the worst yet at it. Hopefully we will be gone soon.
Comments
We cannot say that we are!
'If you're gonna miss her hoot your horn'
"It would herald a politics where the dominant theme was addressing the issues that led to 2016 to make sure we never go through this again."
I admire your optimism. Let's take Boston as an example. The population has greatly increased over a relatively short time. Poles and Lithuanians are young and have families. Addressing the issues, such as building more schools and bringing in more translators won't happen overnight. And where is the political will to do it?
Far cheaper to say "Suck it up, you racist Neanderthals."
what people lost was in no way compensated by "London" money. The butchering of manufacturing in the Midlands and North didnt replace high paying jobs, wages stagnated under Labour, no sizeable investments were made in infrastructure and while Mandelson was getting filthy rich.
People dont want charity, they want sensible jobs and to date none of the parties has anything in store to address that.
How can the EU then possibly justify choosing no backstop at all, and no money, over 38 billion and say an 8 year backstop?
If they still say no then it will be clear to all European electorates where the blame really lies, and provides a much better basis for the U.K. government both domestically and internationally to proceed with a no deal.
You've not watched the Proms recently.
For balance
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-nigel-farage-long-march-sunderland-bedraggled-supporters#img-1
https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1109735117650649089
Let Scotland go its own way and split England along a North/South divide. Where should the split be? We'll let the South have Brum because they're miserable by nature, and they can have Norfolk too because we already have enough fingers.
If you think the EU is Elysium then you're a silly sausage, mind.
So to win the Tories need a coalition of the professional middle classes and skilled working classes, which really means they need to deliver Brexit to keep the latter but not in so hard a form to turn off the former
Philip Hammond on Ridge
- Acknowledges he has been asked to make an intervention on leadership, saying there’s a lot of “frustration”
- “Parliament must make it’s own decision” he says - but who will implement it? Free votes
- Says it’s self indulgent to change leader now
I do not want this to happen and if Boris is really wanting to win the prize he needs to come out now in support of TM deal and stop alienating so many conservative mps. If he wants to lead he has to show leadership now
He is very pragmatic and a voice of reason
And Brexit will help manufacturing how? Even Brexiteers' favourite economist, Patrick Minford, thinks that post Brexit the UK's manufacturing sector should disappear. That will go down like a bucket of cold sick in the Midlands and the North of England. Luckily, the Tory donors who paid for Brexit couldn't give two shits about that.
It is difficult to estimate numbers when you are actually in a march. I tried arithmetic - how many abreast, how far apart, at what speed and for how long. Came out at about a million plus or minus half a million. It was very sprawling. People were stationary for ages in Park Lane and it sprawled out at many junctions. There weren't pictures from the air in 2003 to compare with yesterday's pictures but my own best estimate is that yesterday's march had at least as many as the 2003 march, and probably more.
But the splinter faction that is the ERG and the angry Tory members threatening riots if they don't get what they want have made me and a whole lot of others think again. 4.8 million have signed the petition and a hell of a lot of people in London yesterday.
Brexit's coat is on a shoogly nail as we say in Scotland.
I suppose to the Irish Yorkshire and Birminham sounds the same- a sort of weird English?
(£)
This weekend that judgment has gathered support across May’s cabinet and the party she has represented for more than 40 years. The speech was the capstone of a disastrous week — a culmination of flaws in the prime minister’s strategy and personality that have put her increasingly at odds with her ministers, MPs and parliament, presiding over a Downing Street team at war with itself, where key players are barely on speaking terms...senior Tories see a prime minister who has used secrecy and stubbornness to survive but whose every decision now sparks consequences she cannot control and whose authority has eroded to the point where her premiership has dissolved into coffin full of dreams.
The Blair government bet the farm on financial services and the "new" economy and lost. It held the pound high, penalised energy costs for manufacturing, did nothing to incentivise investment, encouraged takeovers of UK companies which we subsequently shut down and their order books offshored, wrecked the concept of a high skill high wage economy by throwing the doors open to cheap labour. And for the record the Conservatives havent been any better. But to say there was nothing the governmentcould do is just nonsense, it chose to do nothing.
- He was out campaigning in Morecambe where the cockle pickers died!
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/confessions-with-giles-fraser-unherd/id1445038441?mt=2&i=1000426741962
I think future historians might view the 2016 referendum as being a judgement on European policy since Maastricht; essentially, stay out of the most important European project, but still expect to be a key decision-maker. Cameron’s actions over the fiscal pact showed that the strategy was ultimately a dead-end.
If we end up Remaining in a second referendum, it will be with a substantial part of the populace self-describing and voting as pro-Europeans. I would therefore expect the campaign for Euro membership to get underway swiftly, and for British exceptionalism in terms of not identifying as European to diminish.
The EU referendum has summoned the European demos.
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
If his plan is to labour Brexit I'd be all for it not because I like labour but because it means we get a resolution, but I dont see how he would manage it - theoretically the numbers are there but he never get it through cabinet or to the commons.