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May is (at least at the time of writing) our first populist PM. Whaaaat?!?!? A woman about whom it might be said that far from lighting up a room when she enters it, she trails gloom behind her, a populist? She has no charisma, no wit, no ability to charm or work a crowd, no followers, no chanting fans. She cannot speak – sometimes literally. She asserts, she repeats, she reprimands. She cannot persuade. In what sense then is she remotely a populist?

Read the full story here

tlg86

First.

IanB2

Second. Like Mrs M. Perhaps.

IanB2

A populist PM would be backing the more than a million demonstrators who just came out onto London's streets and the nearly five million who have signed up online, not the fifty bedraggled sandwich eaters in a layby and the three West Country motorists who failed to create a traffic jam.

kamski

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

tlg86

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

kamski

tlg86 said:

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

Which way is the right way?
There are arguments for or against another referendum as a way out of the mess we are in, but claiming that those arguing for are Enemies of the People is both ridiculous and frighteningly populist

edmundintokyo

tlg86 said:

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

No, either way is fine. There are now two options that are clearly understood, they can be legislated for before the vote, whichever way it goes it can be delivered.

tlg86

edmundintokyo said:

tlg86 said:

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

No, either way is fine. There are now two options that are clearly understood, they can be legislated for before the vote, whichever way it goes it can be delivered.

Actually, we wouldn't know what we were voting for as this is just the withdrawal agreement.

kamski said:

tlg86 said:

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

Which way is the right way?
There are arguments for or against another referendum as a way out of the mess we are in, but claiming that those arguing for are Enemies of the People is both ridiculous and frighteningly populist

Obviously to vote to stay in the EU. If you think populist sentiment is bad now after one referendum, just imagine what it would be like were the people to vote to leave for a second time.

edmundintokyo

tlg86 said:

Actually, we wouldn't know what we were voting for as this is just the withdrawal agreement.

OK, this is true - and even truer than it needs to be, as the backstop is specifically designed to avoid making tough decisions. But it at least puts a reasonable box around the range of possible outcomes.

IanB2

Philip Lee, Tory MP:

"Mrs May’s statement in Downing Street last Wednesday, in which she pitched our country’s people against their parliament, was a new low: the most irresponsible words I can remember any prime minister uttering in my lifetime. And it is part of a pattern in which Mrs May has picked up the baton from Ukip in poisoning our political discourse and deliberately undermining public faith in the institutions that form the very fabric of our society.

In politics, and in the media, our judges have been condemned as “enemies of the people”, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, was abused as a corrupt liar for suggesting Brexit might not be good for our economy, while academics are told that the UK no longer needs “experts”.

I know that Mrs May cares about her legacy. I urge her to realise that delivering Brexit, on whatever terms, will not secure a good one. Indeed, a no-deal exit would ensure that she goes down in infamy. Our electorate has not been united on much in the past two-and-a-half years, but a poll recently showed that more than 90% of voters think the situation we now find ourselves in has become a national humiliation."

CarlottaVance

kamski said:

This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Rhetoric is far far more dangerous than actual votes?

Which seek to overturn previous votes before they've been implemented?

So next time there's a General Election and to our undisguised horror we find the winner had been, shall we say, disingenuous, we should have another vote to put it right?

I think the danger to British democracy is if i) the outcome of the Brexit referendum is not implemented in a way that gains reasonable acceptance and ii) if the British PM is seen as being removed from office at the behest of the EU.

Since ii) relies on panicking Tories, who will get slaughtered if/when they do, they will not only trash their own brand but poison future UK-EU relations, so I fear it may come to pass.

On Mrs May, I think I'll wait to see the fist her successor makes of this imbroglio before coming to judgment. She has faced a very difficult task and been found wanting. She still may be the least worst option available (and remains a lot more popular than her government, in particular among Conservative voters), so while there are no 'good' options for Brexit for Britain, there are only a series of increasingly disastrous ones for the Tories. And they deserve them.

CarlottaVance

IanB2 said:

Philip Lee, Tory MP:

Chair of the "Right to Vote" Campaign?

That one?

tlg86

edmundintokyo said:

tlg86 said:

Actually, we wouldn't know what we were voting for as this is just the withdrawal agreement.

OK, this is true - and even truer than it needs to be, as the backstop is specifically designed to avoid making tough decisions. But it at least puts a reasonable box around the range of possible outcomes.

You just know the people saying we need a second vote now as we know what we're voting on would then argue in the referendum against voting to leave as you wouldn't know what you're voting for.

Casino_Royale

Nice piece.

I think there’s a lot of creative symbiosis going on here: May has a big problem because there’s a hung parliament; there’s a hung parliament because of May.

Although the EU have weaponised the Irish border, and their apparatchiks have made several entirely unhelpful and unwelcome interventions, I do believe they’ve negotiated to the red lines May set out. The Deal is as fair and as realistic a compromise as could be achieved and the UK achieved several important negotiating wins with it.

However, on any conceivable GE result (or keeping with the GE2015 Parliament) the PM of the day would have had trouble getting the Deal through across their own backbenchers and the opposition.

That really did demand bringing a broader spectrum of politicians, and the public, into the post Brexit debate, but that ship has sailed.

Casino_Royale

edmundintokyo said:

tlg86 said:

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

No, either way is fine. There are now two options that are clearly understood, they can be legislated for before the vote, whichever way it goes it can be delivered.

You’re behind the curve.

Your side has now broken cover and is now proposing we skip this step and go straight to revoke.

Foxy

We really are crap at populism in this country, perhaps because it is hard to take such clowns seriously.

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1092812700193906690?s=19

Nigelb

The 77 year old who started the revoke petition has been receiving death threats:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47678275

tlg86

Nigelb said:

The 77 year old who started the revoke petition has been receiving death threats:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47678275

Since the success of her petition, Mrs Georgiadou has faced criticism over posts she allegedly made on social media, using threatening language about the prime minister. She said she had no memory of the posts.

She said: "It must have been a cut and paste job. The dates were all wrong."

She should sue Guido if this is the case.

Casino_Royale

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Jonathan

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

So in short, the Conservative party has boxed itself into a corner.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

May is not a successful demagogue, though...

MarqueeMark

IanB2 said:

Philip Lee, Tory MP:

"Mrs May’s statement in Downing Street last Wednesday, in which she pitched our country’s people against their parliament, was a new low: the most irresponsible words I can remember any prime minister uttering in my lifetime. And it is part of a pattern in which Mrs May has picked up the baton from Ukip in poisoning our political discourse and deliberately undermining public faith in the institutions that form the very fabric of our society.

In politics, and in the media, our judges have been condemned as “enemies of the people”, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, was abused as a corrupt liar for suggesting Brexit might not be good for our economy, while academics are told that the UK no longer needs “experts”.

I know that Mrs May cares about her legacy. I urge her to realise that delivering Brexit, on whatever terms, will not secure a good one. Indeed, a no-deal exit would ensure that she goes down in infamy. Our electorate has not been united on much in the past two-and-a-half years, but a poll recently showed that more than 90% of voters think the situation we now find ourselves in has become a national humiliation."

For which you are more than 90% responsible, Mr. Lee.

Politically, Mrs May’s statement in Downing Street last Wednesday was disastrous. But only because the MPs refuse to accept their culpabillity for being where we are.

MPs could have voted against the Referendum being called until it was known what happens if we voted to Leave. Their voting for it to be held in 2017 or 2018 would have allowed discussion of the complex issues around Leave they are currently unable to grapple with.

Even when the result was known, they could have voted to trigger Article 50 in 2018 or 2019.

They are likely to be equally paralysed when they have to respond to the "indicative" votes.

Foxy

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

MarqueeMark

Foxy said:

We really are crap at populism in this country, perhaps because it is hard to take such clowns seriously.

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1092812700193906690?s=19

This poster was brought to you by Nigel Farage.....

Casino_Royale

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

We really are crap at populism in this country, perhaps because it is hard to take such clowns seriously.

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1092812700193906690?s=19

This poster was brought to you by Nigel Farage.....

Highbury Grove.

Islington.

MarqueeMark

Foxy said:

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

And in 2015, that clear majority was 63%. It could be argued this fabled anti-Tory majority are losing the argument.....

Casino_Royale

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

Jonathan

Morris_Dancer said:

Good morning, everyone.

May is not a successful demagogue, though...

The first unpopulist.

Foxy

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

And in 2015, that clear majority was 63%. It could be argued this fabled anti-Tory majority are losing the argument.....

There is a clear anti-Tory majority at every election, but the FPTP system convinces our pisspoor demogogue May that she represents the Will of the People.

Jonathan

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

The main divide these days is between social liberalism and social conservatism. Younger people do not like being told what to do, what to think, where to live and who they can fall in love with. The internet has played a big role in breaking barriers and liberating people from conventions.

Jonathan

https://twitter.com/eddiemarsan/status/1109584790691434496?s=21

Actually this is a Wise move.

Foxy

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

It is relatively easy for the government to oppose a further referendum, but this should really give food for thought to the Brexiteers, and to the EU27 governments. You don't know what you've got until its gone.

https://twitter.com/PolakPolly/status/1109462611647758336?s=19

Dura_Ace

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

WhisperingOracle

tlg86 said:

Nigelb said:

The 77 year old who started the revoke petition has been receiving death threats:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47678275

Since the success of her petition, Mrs Georgiadou has faced criticism over posts she allegedly made on social media, using threatening language about the prime minister. She said she had no memory of the posts.

She said: "It must have been a cut and paste job. The dates were all wrong."

She should sue Guido if this is the case.

That's an understatement.

Some excellent points in the header. It feels like spring today, the Sun has just gone into Aries, the frogs at the bottom of my garden are making some encouraging noises, and I think the pack is about to be reshuffled.

Casino_Royale

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

So in short, the Conservative party has boxed itself into a corner.

Well, in what sense have the Conservatives tacked the national narrative towards themselves and their values over the last 8 years? What have they actually achieved?

As far as I can tell, the Conservatives have done well at bringing sanity to the national finances and drastically reducing unemployment, where the tax and welfare reforms at the lower end have been decisive. They've also made some helpful reforms to pensions, put a little bit more rigour into education, and helped prop up the housing market.

However, they've done nothing to bring down immigration, resolve our long-term discomfort with the European project, and have embraced New Labour social policy (identity politics) with both arms, making no stands for free speech, new community dialogue, social integration and have left fashionable shibboleths unchallenged. Their steps on marriage and the family have been entirely tokenistic. The NHS reforms were misunderstood and entirely muddled. They blew their chance on rural and country issues. And the Big Society achieved virtually nothing to strengthen our civic institutions.

Perhaps that's what the next generation want, but for me it's very depressing. If all Conservatism means is just good stewardship of the national finances and day-to-day administration and otherwise abrogating any leadership of the national debate (and I admit, to many, that's all they want) then politics no longer holds any real interest for me.

IanB2

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

Children of the 60s and post-60s era got university education, travelled the world, and got older. Who'd have thought?

The Pensioners' Party has some thinking to do.

Nigelb

Jonathan said:

https://twitter.com/eddiemarsan/status/1109584790691434496?s=21

Actually this is a Wise move.

Yes, he was the one who wasn’t funny.

Casino_Royale

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

It is relatively easy for the government to oppose a further referendum, but this should really give food for thought to the Brexiteers, and to the EU27 governments. You don't know what you've got until its gone.

Don't try and piss me off fox with your shitty march photos.

I'm not in the mood.

williamglenn

CarlottaVance said:

kamski said:

This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Rhetoric is far far more dangerous than actual votes?

Which seek to overturn previous votes before they've been implemented?

Yes, that sentiment is more dangerous to democracy than holding a public vote to determine whether we should ratify the withdrawal agreement or revoke Article 50. If ratification is the ‘will of the people’ then there is no danger in such a vote, and if it isn’t, then to proceed without consent in the name of democracy would be absurd.

Casino_Royale

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

The main divide these days is between social liberalism and social conservatism. Younger people do not like being told what to do, what to think, where to live and who they can fall in love with. The internet has played a big role in breaking barriers and liberating people from conventions.

Nah, it's not that. Since when did young people like any of those things?

I'm in my mid-30s myself and get all of that, indeed, I agree with it. There's something much deeper and more fundamental going on here.

Jonathan

Casino_Royale said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

The main divide these days is between social liberalism and social conservatism. Younger people do not like being told what to do, what to think, where to live and who they can fall in love with. The internet has played a big role in breaking barriers and liberating people from conventions.

Nah, it's not that. Since when did young people like any of those things?

I'm in my mid-30s myself and get all of that, indeed, I agree with it. There's something much deeper and more fundamental going on here.

It has deepened since we were young.

I would also argue also that the Tories are still yet to recover from Blair. They still look a bit old fashioned and out of touch.

IanB2

MarqueeMark said:

IanB2 said:

Philip Lee, Tory MP:

"Mrs May’s statement in Downing Street last Wednesday, in which she pitched our country’s people against their parliament, was a new low: the most irresponsible words I can remember any prime minister uttering in my lifetime. And it is part of a pattern in which Mrs May has picked up the baton from Ukip in poisoning our political discourse and deliberately undermining public faith in the institutions that form the very fabric of our society.

In politics, and in the media, our judges have been condemned as “enemies of the people”, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, was abused as a corrupt liar for suggesting Brexit might not be good for our economy, while academics are told that the UK no longer needs “experts”.

I know that Mrs May cares about her legacy. I urge her to realise that delivering Brexit, on whatever terms, will not secure a good one. Indeed, a no-deal exit would ensure that she goes down in infamy. Our electorate has not been united on much in the past two-and-a-half years, but a poll recently showed that more than 90% of voters think the situation we now find ourselves in has become a national humiliation."

For which you are more than 90% responsible, Mr. Lee.

Politically, Mrs May’s statement in Downing Street last Wednesday was disastrous. But only because the MPs refuse to accept their culpabillity for being where we are.

MPs could have voted against the Referendum being called until it was known what happens if we voted to Leave. Their voting for it to be held in 2017 or 2018 would have allowed discussion of the complex issues around Leave they are currently unable to grapple with.

Even when the result was known, they could have voted to trigger Article 50 in 2018 or 2019.

They are likely to be equally paralysed when they have to respond to the "indicative" votes.

Both decisions were the result of MPs being egged on by Tory members and UKIP

Casino_Royale

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Casino_Royale

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

Children of the 60s and post-60s era got university education, travelled the world, and got older. Who'd have thought?

The Pensioners' Party has some thinking to do.

What a shame that rather than try and engage with serious arguments, you resort to sneering and jeering with some tired old canards and cliches?

Entirely in character, I suppose.

I'll wait for a serious poster to turn up before engaging next time.

williamglenn

Casino_Royale said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

The main divide these days is between social liberalism and social conservatism. Younger people do not like being told what to do, what to think, where to live and who they can fall in love with. The internet has played a big role in breaking barriers and liberating people from conventions.

Nah, it's not that. Since when did young people like any of those things?

I'm in my mid-30s myself and get all of that, indeed, I agree with it. There's something much deeper and more fundamental going on here.

I think it's more the case that the Conservatives have abandoned liberalism than that their previous voting demographic has acquired it.

Foxy

Nigelb said:

Jonathan said:

https://twitter.com/eddiemarsan/status/1109584790691434496?s=21

Actually this is a Wise move.

Yes, he was the one who wasn’t funny.

Good straight men to set up the jokes are far rarer than good comedians.

Ernie was a comedy genius.

IanB2

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

'twill be the last hurrah of the post-war generation.

IanB2

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

This is *not* the case for those over the age of about 50-55, but very much is for those beneath, and is even more pronounced amongst females.

Children of the 60s and post-60s era got university education, travelled the world, and got older. Who'd have thought?

The Pensioners' Party has some thinking to do.

What a shame that rather than try and engage with serious arguments, you resort to sneering and jeering with some tired old canards and cliches?

Entirely in character, I suppose.

I'll wait for a serious poster to turn up before engaging next time.

I am sorry you didn't see that I was actually trying to make a serious point about generational attitudes, and the opportunities I was lucky enough to catch the leading edge of - if not to the extent that the smartphone and RyanAir generation behind me have enjoyed. If it came across wrongly I apologise.

AlastairMeeks

Seems a bit bad-tempered this morning. How can anyone be upset when David Lidington is being tipped to take over as Prime Minister?

El_Capitano

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Unfortunately there’s no Westminster party ready to seize on it. We have the Conservatives (divided and bereft of ideas), Corbyn’s Labour (reheated 70s statism), and TIG (reheated Blairism) when what we really need is a British answer to AOC.

At previous turning points, a leader has appeared and seized the national mood: Thatcher, Blair, Cameron at a pinch. There’s no sign of one right now - failing the very unlikely outcomes of a Labour split (in favour of the Jess Phillips/Stella Creasy tendency) or a LibDem revival.

WhisperingOracle

As the crowd was dispersing after the last speaker yesterday, which was Heseltine, several mainly young people who had EU flags flying very high from bikes, buggies , themselves, anything they could carry, swept away in four of five directions from parliament square, and my last memory of the day was thirtysomething men and women sweeping EU flags high in the air towards Whitehall, St James's, Victoria, the river, and Westminster Bridge. Because the flags were so high the effect was like some sort of grandly organised national showcase, with the grand settings of the Mall and the foreign office as the backdrop. I never thought I'd see anything like this in Britain, and Brexit has done it.

Jonathan

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Brexit has so far offered me nothing, apart from being worse off, fewer freedoms and being at the mercy of a failing Westminster/Whitehall system. The EU is currently a better offer on all three fronts.

MarqueeMark

WhisperingOracle said:

As the crowd was dispersing after the last speaker yesterday, which was Heseltine, several mainly young people who had EU flags flying very high from bikes, buggies , themselves, anything they could carry, swept away in four of five directions from parliament square, and my last memory of the day was thirtysomething men and women sweeping EU flags high in the air towards Whitehall, St James's, Victoria, the river, and Westminster Bridge. Because the flags were so high the effect was like some sort of grandly organised national showcase, with the grand settings of the Mall and the foreign office as the backdrop. I never thought I'd see anything like this in Britain, and Brexit has done it.

Bad losers has done it.

A fear of democracy has done it. Good little EUropeans that they are.....

Foxy

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.

Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:

https://youtu.be/Y8oWrF2CXF8

Oliver

Nice bit of media management from No 10 yesterday. Keep the big march off the front pages and put the mother of all frighteners on the ERG all at the same time. The "coup" is just a dead cat.

IanB2

Calls grow for public inquiry into Brexit

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/calls-grow-public-inquiry-brexit-141330868.html

williamglenn

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

To me it's striking how much of the old-fashioned UK unionist rhetoric about transcending narrow nationalism is transferable to a strong pro-EU position. I think if you could just overcome your aversion to the flag, you'd be surprised how much you have in common with the core values of the people who marched yesterday.

Morris_Dancer

I do wonder about this.

People who lost the vote and like the EU want us to stay in the EU. One might say nothing has changed.

logical_song

edmundintokyo said:

tlg86 said:

kamski said:

I guess I would define populism simply as using the concept of The People to justify your position and silence opposition In that sense May is certainly on the populist spectrum, and much more so than Corbyn. Others have been even more extremely populist: newspapers with Enemies of the People headlines, talk of Traitors, the dehumanising denial that people who oppose the hardest Brexit are Real People or British People This populist rhetoric is far far more dangerous for democracy than having another referendum.

Assuming the people vote the right way in the second referendum.

No, either way is fine. There are now two options that are clearly understood, they can be legislated for before the vote, whichever way it goes it can be delivered.

Quite right.

Casino_Royale

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.

Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:

There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.

This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.

DavidL

Casino_Royale said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

(snip)

Perhaps that's what the next generation want, but for me it's very depressing. If all Conservatism means is just good stewardship of the national finances and day-to-day administration and otherwise abrogating any leadership of the national debate (and I admit, to many, that's all they want) then politics no longer holds any real interest for me.

It's an interesting viewpoint but what are the alternatives? I certainly would not want the Tory party to follow the path taken by the Republican party in the US. What policies do you want them to propose that they are not?

I am a Conservative voter (or at least I have been up to now) but I don't want radical attacks on the welfare state, indeed the harshness of the reforms on disability for example offend me as does the incompetence with which UC has been introduced. I certainly don't want the equivalent of US Evangelicals having any say on social policy. I am not up for another wave of privatisations, the recent experience of private sector involvement in the provision of public services has not been a success on any measure. What do I want?

* Sound public finances and reduced government debt (as a share of GDP).
*Efficient and effective public services which are adequately funded to meet the challenges we have given to them.
*The application of our laws to all and for all. Having some of our citizens treated as second class because of "cultural sensitivity" is unacceptable.
*A society that is, so far as possible, left to get on with their own lives without politicians thinking we need new laws on everything all the time.
* A society that is compassionate about those in need.

I accept it is not the most ambitious list. One might say it is almost conservative.

Casino_Royale

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Brexit has so far offered me nothing, apart from being worse off, fewer freedoms and being at the mercy of a failing Westminster/Whitehall system. The EU is currently a better offer on all three fronts.

I understand your position, and yet you seriously considered Leave yourself a few years ago.

You too have sympathy with some of the arguments I'm making.

The importance of those principles hasn't gone away.

Casino_Royale

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

To me it's striking how much of the old-fashioned UK unionist rhetoric about transcending narrow nationalism is transferable to a strong pro-EU position. I think if you could just overcome your aversion to the flag, you'd be surprised how much you have in common with the core values of the people who marched yesterday.

Here's the trouble for you, William: I know your game.

williamglenn

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.

Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:

There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.

This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.

If England is a nation, then surely you support its absorption into a supranational union?

CarlottaVance

Oliver said:

Nice bit of media management from No 10 yesterday. Keep the big march off the front pages and put the mother of all frighteners on the ERG all at the same time. The "coup" is just a dead cat.

It would be if No.10 were leaking it but that does not appear to be the case.

Casino_Royale

AlastairMeeks said:

Seems a bit bad-tempered this morning. How can anyone be upset when David Lidington is being tipped to take over as Prime Minister?

How long do we have to put up with your smugness for this time? ;-)

In all seriousness, though, yet again one of your tips will have made me money.

I'm very grateful for that.

Casino_Royale

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today, that isn't the case, and hasn't been for some time. The middle-class have definitively drifted to becoming socially liberal, internationalist, pro-higher taxation, re-distributive, economically soft-left in all other ways, and embrace identity politics with both arms.

.

Children of the 60s and post-60s era got university education, travelled the world, and got older. Who'd have thought?

The Pensioners' Party has some thinking to do.

What a shame that rather than try and engage with serious arguments, you resort to sneering and jeering with some tired old canards and cliches?

Entirely in character, I suppose.

I'll wait for a serious poster to turn up before engaging next time.

I am sorry you didn't see that I was actually trying to make a serious point about generational attitudes, and the opportunities I was lucky enough to catch the leading edge of - if not to the extent that the smartphone and RyanAir generation behind me have enjoyed. If it came across wrongly I apologise.

Thanks.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Royale, don't count your coups before they hatch.

AlastairMeeks

On topic, Cyclefree is dead right. Theresa May sees herself as channelling the will of the people. Luckily she doesn’t come anywhere near.

Casino_Royale

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

'twill be the last hurrah of the post-war generation.

No, that's not right either. The post-war generation took us into Europe. It's those in their teens, who couldn't, and those in their 20s and early 30s who were pretty pro-Europe in the 1970s who took us out.

And still, despite all the developments, European federalism in the UK is still very much a minority taste.

OldKingCole

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.

Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:

There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.

This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.

Can't one be, for example, a patriotic Scot and pro the Union? Some, I know, would say No, but othrs would say Yes.

On a more general point, thanks to Ms Cyclefree for another useful and thoughtful survey of our rather depressing current political situation.

Casino_Royale

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

I saw two of my friends went on the march from my Facebook feed last night.

They were both the ones I thought might do so. Very politically engaged and anti-Tory. They were incandescent following Cameron’s unexpected majority win in GE2015.

One big problem revoke/remain have is that their base, and supporters, are so clearly left-wing, economically, culturally and socially. There’s a vast gulf in values between them and the Conservative Party.

It puts off the vast majority of Conservative Party members and voters from even considering that Remaining in the EU could even be vaguely in their interest, or the nation’s interest, and - with the EU having friends like those - shows how suspicious they’d be of any Conservative who said otherwise.

Conservatives for Europe were quite numerous on the march, and several key speakers including Heseltine as the grand finale were well received.

There were many placards castigating the ERG, May and Corbyn, but the marchers were anti-Brexit, not anti-Tory. Of course in the last election a clear majority of 58% voted for non Tories.

The vast numbers of marchers were the demography that was once the bedrock of the Tory party, but have been abandonded by it.

I agree with the last sentence. But there's something far bigger going on there.

30-40 years ago, my peer group of the professional middle-class (save for academics and those really immersed in the public sector) would have been overwhelmingly Conservative.

Today

The

Nah, it's not that. Since when did young people like any of those things?

I'm in my mid-30s myself and get all of that, indeed, I agree with it. There's something much deeper and more fundamental going on here.

I think it's more the case that the Conservatives have abandoned liberalism than that their previous voting demographic has acquired it.

No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.

They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.

Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.

OnlyLivingBoy

"The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you're someone. You hear them shouting "Heil, Spode!" and you imagine it is the Voice of the People. That is where you make your bloomer. What the Voice of the People is saying is: "Look at that frightful ass Spode swanking about in footer bags! Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?"
I think Britain has always struggled to take populists seriously, even if it has frequently fallen in thrall to populist ideas. Brexit (a populist idea that the public voted for) versus May (a populist politician that the public won't vote for) are the latest examples. If we ever produce a populist that really cuts through ("Tommy Robinson" is probably the most successful to date but will also fall short I think, thank God) we'll be in real trouble.

Dura_Ace

Casino_Royale said:

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

I have seen the change among my younger students. Students almost always connect with me on Facebook so they can use Messenger to ask me how to form the subjonctif plus-que-parfait of devoir rather than open a book.

Three or four years ago their typical FB feeds were almost completely apolitical. Today they are filled with the spiciest placards from yesterday's 1.2 million strong march.

"Whatever we did, whatever we said, we didn't mean it. We just want EU back for good." was my favourite.

Casino_Royale

OldKingCole said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.

Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:

There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.

This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.

Can't one be, for example, a patriotic Scot and pro the Union? Some, I know, would say No, but othrs would say Yes.

That's the same country.

To use that argument reinforces mine that the EU is becoming one.

williamglenn

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

'twill be the last hurrah of the post-war generation.

No, that's not right either. The post-war generation took us into Europe. It's those in their teens, who couldn't, and those in their 20s and early 30s who were pretty pro-Europe in the 1970s who took us out.

And still, despite all the developments, European federalism in the UK is still very much a minority taste.

We applied to join the EEC in 1961. It wasn't the post-war generation who did that, and in the 1975 referendum, those born after the wars or who were too young to remember them were more Eurosceptic than those who lived through it.

Casino_Royale

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Royale, don't count your coups before they hatch.

Speaking of hatching, our baby is easily the best thing I've ever done and the most positive thing I could ever dream to imagine would happen to me in 2019.

Maybe I'll go focus on her instead.

Laters.

Morris_Dancer

King Cole, those are different kettles of fish, though.

The political settlement of Scotland has, in broad terms, been around for three centuries. More recently, power has devolved from the centre to Holyrood. The exact opposite process is happening with nation-states and the EU. Those are two very significant differences.

Not only that, we've had two public votes about the fate of Scotland in the UK, and the UK in the EU.

DavidL

AlastairMeeks said:

On topic, Cyclefree is dead right. Theresa May sees herself as channelling the will of the people. Luckily she doesn’t come anywhere near.

I can kinda see @Cyclefree's point but the idea that the answer to a binary question results in May's deal is just too far fetched to be populism in any conventional sense. And she is missing all the other attributes. The rather more boring truth is that she is an utterly crap politician who would struggle to build a consensus in the North Stand of Old Trafford about Ole.

IanB2

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Being a British Patriot and pro EU is not a contradiction. There were many Union Flags on the march alongside the EU ones. Of course some British patriots are anti, but surely no one has a monopoly of patriotism? Indeed a patriotism that treats 48% of it own voters as an internal enemy is taking the country in a very dangerous direction.

Listen to Heseltines speech for that patriotic pro EU view:

There's nothing patriotic about a desire to see your nation absorbed into a suprafederal union, and a new country.

This is at the heart of the issue. This is *why* we're all here.

But Heseltine himself gives you the answer. The world is changing and history doesn't run backwards.

"We are here, now, on the right side of history. In a shrinking world, of global terrorism, international tax avoidance, millisecond communication, giant corporations, superpowers, mass migration, climate change and a host of other threats, our duty is to build on our achievements, to maintain our access to the corridors of world power, to keep our place at the centre of the stages of the world"

Jonathan

Casino_Royale said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

Brexit has so far offered me nothing, apart from being worse off, fewer freedoms and being at the mercy of a failing Westminster/Whitehall system. The EU is currently a better offer on all three fronts.

I understand your position, and yet you seriously considered Leave yourself a few years ago.

You too have sympathy with some of the arguments I'm making.

The importance of those principles hasn't gone away.

There is a democratic deficit in the EU, but at came down on Remain because I believe it offered a betting chance of reform than the broken Westminster/Whitehall system. The past two year have validated that decision in a way I did not imagine.

DavidL

Dura_Ace said:

Casino_Royale said:

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

I have seen the change among my younger students. Students almost always connect with me on Facebook so they can use Messenger to ask me how to form the subjonctif plus-que-parfait of devoir rather than open a book.

Three or four years ago their typical FB feeds were almost completely apolitical. Today they are filled with the spiciest placards from yesterday's 1.2 million strong march.

"Whatever we did, whatever we said, we didn't mean it. We just want EU back for good." was my favourite.

That one shows genuine wit.

CD13

Revoke won't happen because it has to be done by MPs and identifies them as the culprits. Something they've been desperate to avoid. That causes a major problem. Plus to many in the rest of the world, cancelling without the consent of the electorate looks like it is. Big Brother

So, it has to be a referendum repeat. A straight Leave versus Remain is merely a second go for the losers and could end in a disaster. So it might well be a May deal versus Remain which clearly ignore Leavers who prefer a no-deal Leave or a softer Brexit. A fiddle, in other words. And if 48% voted leave still, surely their wants should be taken into account? After all, that was many Remainers' demand after the first one.

A three-way or four way option to include the other options se is likely to end in no side having 50%. That will suit some Remainers as long as they win; after all, they know they're always right and the other voters deserve to be ignored. Is that what Remain want?

OnlyLivingBoy

Casino_Royale said:

No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.

They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.

Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.

I agree with all that. The divide is really unhealthy, and needs to be addressed immediately somehow. The problem for the other half of the population is that my half pays most of the taxes, runs all of the institutions and makes all of the little decisions in the public and private sphere that determine the direction of the country. Getting that group to formulate all the plans and pay for the implementation of something that goes against everything they believe in was always going to be difficult. You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.

Gardenwalker

WhisperingOracle said:

As the crowd was dispersing after the last speaker yesterday, which was Heseltine, several mainly young people who had EU flags flying very high from bikes, buggies , themselves, anything they could carry, swept away in four of five directions from parliament square, and my last memory of the day was thirtysomething men and women sweeping EU flags high in the air towards Whitehall, St James's, Victoria, the river, and Westminster Bridge. Because the flags were so high the effect was like some sort of grandly organised national showcase, with the grand settings of the Mall and the foreign office as the backdrop. I never thought I'd see anything like this in Britain, and Brexit has done it.

This could almost be a paragraph from Dance to the Music of Time...

williamglenn

OnlyLivingBoy said:

You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.

The problem is even deeper than that, because a hypothetical 'successful' Brexit that maintained our engagement with the rest of Europe (which the 'love Europe, hate the EU' brigade claim to want) would immediately be attacked as "not Brexit".

logical_song

Fines have been handed out to both sides of the Brexit referendum. My sense is that Leave got more and higher fines but I can't find a fact checked definitive list anywhere, does anybody know of one?

nico67

Casino_Royale said:

Dura_Ace said:

The Revoke march had far better meme based placards than Farage's Ramble for the Permanently Bewildered. Unless Brexit can somehow be marketed as offering something positive for the under 60s then it's not going to be viable even if it is achieved in the near future.

It caused a militantly European cultural identity to appear in the UK in the way that 40+ years of membership of the EU and its progenitor organisation never did.

Yes, it's extremely depressing.

Nothing makes me more angry (go on, call me a Gammon) than when I see a Briton march with the yellow and blue flag. It brings out of all my innermost fears and demons.

I voted Brexit to try and bring a stop to that and to restrengthen our believe and pride in our nation and its democratic principles, and to set an example to Europe and the World of how else it could and should be done.

It hasn't exactly worked out like that.

People can both have pride in the UK and EU . I’m not sure what’s to fear . Indeed by leaving that’s more likely to break up the Union .

And this decision is being pushed onto younger people by the older generation. Brexit with the younger generation at the forefront would IMO been much easier to stomach . I would have been far less anti Brexit.

I’m afraid to say that your attempts to restrengthen belief and pride in the nation won’t end well . I wonder how many will admit to having voted for Brexit in the coming years .

Jonathan

Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.

Alanbrooke

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Casino_Royale said:

No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.

They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.

Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.

I agree with all that. The divide is really unhealthy, and needs to be addressed immediately somehow. The problem for the other half of the population is that my half pays most of the taxes, runs all of the institutions and makes all of the little decisions in the public and private sphere that determine the direction of the country. Getting that group to formulate all the plans and pay for the implementation of something that goes against everything they believe in was always going to be difficult. You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.

the signs of social fracture have been there for ages for those who could be bothered to look. When you have whole chunks of the country stagnating and the powers that be caring little about it, then its eventually going to come out in the body politic. Those gaining from globalisation did next to nothing to coompensate for its impact - except put the extra money in their pockets and shout down any expression of discontent.

The reality is of course no lessons have been learned and a return to the EU would simply be business as usual for them, while the underlying problems bubble hotter and come to the surface in another way.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/NinaDSchick/status/1109721908554223617

So good, in fact, it prompted this...

Tim Montgomerie @montie The BBC has become Remain’s propaganda vehicle. https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1109502078005714945

FF43

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

(snip)

Perhaps that's what the next generation want, but for me it's very depressing. If all Conservatism means is just good stewardship of the national finances and day-to-day administration and otherwise abrogating any leadership of the national debate (and I admit, to many, that's all they want) then politics no longer holds any real interest for me.

It's an interesting viewpoint but what are the alternatives? I certainly would not want the Tory party to follow the path taken by the Republican party in the US. What policies do you want them to propose that they are not?

I am a Conservative voter (or at least I have been up to now) but I don't want radical attacks on the welfare state, indeed the harshness of the reforms on disability for example offend me as does the incompetence with which UC has been introduced. I certainly don't want the equivalent of US Evangelicals having any say on social policy. I am not up for another wave of privatisations, the recent experience of private sector involvement in the provision of public services has not been a success on any measure. What do I want?

* Sound public finances and reduced government debt (as a share of GDP).
*Efficient and effective public services which are adequately funded to meet the challenges we have given to them.
*The application of our laws to all and for all. Having some of our citizens treated as second class because of "cultural sensitivity" is unacceptable.
*A society that is, so far as possible, left to get on with their own lives without politicians thinking we need new laws on everything all the time.
* A society that is compassionate about those in need.

I accept it is not the most ambitious list. One might say it is almost conservative.

That's pretty much the manifesto of Bernie Sanders, interestingly. Which is why he is popular in Vermont across the political spectrum.

IanB2

Casino_Royale said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Royale, don't count your coups before they hatch.

Speaking of hatching, our baby is easily the best thing I've ever done and the most positive thing I could ever dream to imagine would happen to me in 2019.

Maybe I'll go focus on her instead.

Laters.

Congratulations. I hope she enjoyed your reading of the 34 Dalmatians last night?

Alanbrooke

Jonathan said:

Trump is a key factor in undermining Brexit. He and his chlorinated chicken are simply not an appealing alternative to the EU. He wasn’t there when we voted. Just imagine if there was an attractive president actively courting the U.K. Instead we face a deal with him or Siberia.

British parents regularly chlorinate their children in much higher doses in swimming pools.

IanB2

Alanbrooke said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Casino_Royale said:

No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.

They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.

Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.

I agree with all that. The divide is really unhealthy, and needs to be addressed immediately somehow. The problem for the other half of the population is that my half pays most of the taxes, runs all of the institutions and makes all of the little decisions in the public and private sphere that determine the direction of the country. Getting that group to formulate all the plans and pay for the implementation of something that goes against everything they believe in was always going to be difficult. You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.

the signs of social fracture have been there for ages for those who could be bothered to look. When you have whole chunks of the country stagnating and the powers that be caring little about it, then its eventually going to come out in the body politic. Those gaining from globalisation did next to nothing to coompensate for its impact - except put the extra money in their pockets and shout down any expression of discontent.

The reality is of course no lessons have been learned and a return to the EU would simply be business as usual for them, while the underlying problems bubble hotter and come to the surface in another way.

For sure, but they are the problems of the modern age - cf. for example Trump - and will be with us regardless of Brexit, which in that context is a huge distraction (and indeed could well make things worse).

CD13

Ms Cyclefree,

A good header, but there is a simpler explanation. Mrs May isn't a very good politician but she is consistent - a little like 'ol Bonehead in Labour tries to be. She remains at heart a Remainer, but possibly a little shocked by the referendum result, has genuinely decided to honour it.

Her negotiations yielded her what seemed to be a result acceptable to both sides. However she underestimated the extremism on the ERG side and the ambition of the Remain side. The former want a clean break, the latter to reverse the referendum result. She also under-estimated Labour's aim to prevent her claiming any credit.

As we probably agree, she's a bad politician. That doesn't make her bad, merely naïve and unsuited to the job

eek

williamglenn said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.

The problem is even deeper than that, because a hypothetical 'successful' Brexit that maintained our engagement with the rest of Europe (which the 'love Europe, hate the EU' brigade claim to want) would immediately be attacked as "not Brexit".

All end points will be attacked as either not hard enough or too hard. And probably as both at the same time.

Peter_the_Punter

Morning Peeps.

Have we agreed yet roughly how many were at yesterday's Meaningful March/Pointless Protest? My guess would be about half a million, but that includes dogs, Russian stooges and tourists just trying to find their way to Fortnum & Masons.

WhisperingOracle

Gardenwalker said:

WhisperingOracle said:

As the crowd was dispersing after the last speaker yesterday, which was Heseltine, several mainly young people who had EU flags flying very high from bikes, buggies , themselves, anything they could carry, swept away in four of five directions from parliament square, and my last memory of the day was thirtysomething men and women sweeping EU flags high in the air towards Whitehall, St James's, Victoria, the river, and Westminster Bridge. Because the flags were so high the effect was like some sort of grandly organised national showcase, with the grand settings of the Mall and the foreign office as the backdrop. I never thought I'd see anything like this in Britain, and Brexit has done it.

This could almost be a paragraph from Dance to the Music of Time...

Thankyou very much.

williamglenn

Alanbrooke said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Casino_Royale said:

No, I think the values of the middle class have changed as the economy has globalised and society liberalised since, in particular, the 1980s.

They are working and marrying more internationally, and are far less connected to the communities they grew up in these days.

Like I say, I'm far from convinced this is healthy. We are two nations. Or, to put it another way, one desperate to get the nation back, and the other to supersede it as anachronistic.

I agree with all that. The divide is really unhealthy, and needs to be addressed immediately somehow. The problem for the other half of the population is that my half pays most of the taxes, runs all of the institutions and makes all of the little decisions in the public and private sphere that determine the direction of the country. Getting that group to formulate all the plans and pay for the implementation of something that goes against everything they believe in was always going to be difficult. You can call it undemocratic and sabotage if you like, and in a sense it is. But at the end of the day it's just hard to get people to do something if they really don't want to, and the fact is that the people who need to make Brexit happen and make a success of it don't want it to happen.

the signs of social fracture have been there for ages for those who could be bothered to look. When you have whole chunks of the country stagnating and the powers that be caring little about it, then its eventually going to come out in the body politic. Those gaining from globalisation did next to nothing to coompensate for its impact - except put the extra money in their pockets and shout down any expression of discontent.

The reality is of course no lessons have been learned and a return to the EU would simply be business as usual for them, while the underlying problems bubble hotter and come to the surface in another way.

Given that you seem to have supported Brexit primarily as a way of giving the governing class a kicking, without expecting it to lead to any rolling back of economic integration with Europe, I don't see the downside of it being reversed for you. It would herald a politics where the dominant theme was addressing the issues that led to 2016 to make sure we never go through this again.