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Tin. Foil. Hat.RobD said:
Russian bots aren’t sophisticated enough to spoof IP addresses (if that’s even how that is determined) but yet threw the 2016 referendum?Anorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/11090791859879157790 -
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They think everything other than building a wall at dover and fill in the channel tunnel as BINO.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
The ERG have stuffed it, when do you think the penny will finally drop with them that we're heading for BINO?GIN1138 said:Scrapheap_as_was said:Steve Baker - who resigned of course so distancing himself from the levers presumably....
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
This moron should have voted for May's MV2.0 -
Did the little hypocritical tosser really say it was Russian bots? You almost have to admire his chutzpah. Still shows they are worried that they are trying to discredit it so hardAnorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/1109079185987915779
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It was partly tongue in cheek, but the concern with these petitions is a real one. It really isn’t difficult to pretend you are in the UK. I have no doubt the vast majority are real though.Anorak said:
Tin. Foil. Hat.RobD said:
Russian bots aren’t sophisticated enough to spoof IP addresses (if that’s even how that is determined) but yet threw the 2016 referendum?Anorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/11090791859879157790 -
I believe they did a 40mph on the M62 the other day._Anazina_ said:
From Gammon Order Dot ComDura_Ace said:
The comments below it are amusing. Highly offended gammons in full throat. At least now we know what to get grabcock for Xmas.Floater said:
***
Krishnan Gurning-Leftie • 13 minutes ago
it’s on...
Brexit motorway protest tonight on M42 J6 6pm onwards...
These traitors need showing...
Anyone else taking part tonight?
Harry Mudd
They should be careful about things like this.
We need the public fully onside.. Not pissing them off when they're trying to get home at the end of the week.
***
Anyone else heard about this cunning plan to garner public support by blocking the M42 on a Friday night?
I think they choose the road number based on the current attendance on Farage's march to freedom.0 -
The Dance of the Seven Fails.HYUFD said:0 -
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Which means absolutely nothing...there are things called VPNs you know.Anorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/1109079185987915779
Just to be clear I am not doubting there is a very significant response to this petition. Just pointing out it is incredibly insecure / open to abuse if a more sophisticated actor wanted to & that peoples evidence for / against some sort of conspiracy is mostly massively flawed.0 -
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Fairy nuff. The endless war of attrition undermining every single fucking fact and fucking figure by the usual fucking bell-ends is really, really fucking wearing.RobD said:
It was partly tongue in cheek, but the concern with these petitions is a real one. It really isn’t difficult to pretend you are in the UK. I have no doubt the vast majority are real though.Anorak said:0 -
And the US election, don't forget.RobD said:
Russian bots aren’t sophisticated enough to spoof IP addresses (if that’s even how that is determined) but yet threw the 2016 referendum?Anorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/11090791859879157790 -
I’m a fucking bell-end? Nice.Anorak said:
Fairy nuff. The endless war of attrition undermining every single fucking fact and fucking figure by the usual fucking bell-ends is really, really fucking wearing.RobD said:
It was partly tongue in cheek, but the concern with these petitions is a real one. It really isn’t difficult to pretend you are in the UK. I have no doubt the vast majority are real though.Anorak said:
Edit:
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I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
Would it really matter? The PD is just a roadmap for what the discussions on the future relationship would be during the WA transitional period, which is to the end of 2020 with the possibility of extension, so plenty of time for the UK to decide what it wants from the future relationship.Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1109052933960806402
Oh, wait...0 -
Norway+, Canada+, Common Market 2.0, May's deal and Corbyn's Customs Unicorn all should in theory contain the same WA....Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
Political DeclarationGIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
It could have been agreed weeks ago with Labour, though. But they don't want to.Pulpstar said:
Norway+, Canada+, Common Market 2.0, May's deal and Corbyn's Customs Unicorn all should in theory contain the same WA....Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
Political declaration, that worthless bit of paper.GIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
Political declaration - the bit that decides what sort of Brexit we'll actually have. The WA is basically the transition period (Where nothing changes except we leave the EU in name only) and the backstop.GIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
Thanks.Richard_Nabavi said:
Political DeclarationGIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1109052933960806402
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You mean the thing that the EU can ignore the moment the WA is signed?Pulpstar said:
Political declaration - the bit that decides what sort of Brexit we'll actually have. The WA is basically the transition period (Where nothing changes except we leave the EU in name only) and the backstop.GIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1109052933960806402
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Has anyone thought of starting a political party whose main policy is to shut down Twitter completely? I think it might be surprisingly popular.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
Aaaaany minut now, they'll realise that the EU caving on Brexit is the only thing that will save them. Soon. Very soon...
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/11090926016244449280 -
Obviously it's a negotiation again with the executive, so yes unless we revoke or no-deal essentially the legally binding part of May's agreement will get through.RobD said:
You mean the thing that the EU can ignore the moment the WA is signed?Pulpstar said:
Political declaration - the bit that decides what sort of Brexit we'll actually have. The WA is basically the transition period (Where nothing changes except we leave the EU in name only) and the backstop.GIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1109052933960806402
MPs just need to decide which clothing it is dressed up in.
The EU has thrown May under the bus in terms of authority whilst keeping her deal absolubtely alive by giving parliament the illusion of authority over the deal when in fact it won't be legally changing.0 -
How else are we supposed to be able to readily identify the tw*ts?AndyJS said:
Has anyone thought of starting a political party whose main policy is to shut down Twitter completely? I think it might be surprisingly popular.FrancisUrquhart said: 0 -
Given that this by election would take place in the early summer the local government elections will have an impact. As the Tories are likely to lose 2-300 seats to the Lib Dems this should help swing it their way and sound the death knell of the tiggers at the same time. I would, by the way, like the odds on all three main parties having new leaders by the end of the conference season...0
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No. You are not. Mildly annoying on weekdays with a 't' in them.RobD said:
I’m a fucking bell-end? Nice.Anorak said:
Fairy nuff. The endless war of attrition undermining every single fucking fact and fucking figure by the usual fucking bell-ends is really, really fucking wearing.RobD said:
It was partly tongue in cheek, but the concern with these petitions is a real one. It really isn’t difficult to pretend you are in the UK. I have no doubt the vast majority are real though.Anorak said:
Edit: 0 -
Missing a zero there, I think!Fenman said:Given that this by election would take place in the early summer the local government elections will have an impact. As the Tories are likely to lose 2-300 seats to the Lib Dems this should help swing it their way and sound the death knell of the tiggers at the same time. I would, by the way, like the odds on all three main parties having new leaders by the end of the conference season...
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Tom Watson's job isn't it ?AndyJS said:
Has anyone thought of starting a political party whose main policy is to shut down Twitter completely? I think it might be surprisingly popular.FrancisUrquhart said:0 -
When Farage has the temerity to talk about Russian bots you know they are worriedAnorak said:
Sad, isn't it. A small, utterly negligible sample means the whole thing is completely worthless, apparently.Nigel_Foremain said:
of course not, we mustn't take any piece of evidence that suggests the tenets of the new religion might be wrong! Discredit them as blasphemers!!Norm said:Whty we shouldn't take the revoke petition too seriously
https://twitter.com/Sapere_vivere/status/1109017814537564160
But point out the shenanigans of the Leave campaign...0 -
In that case I think it was the feeling that he was “cleverer” than everyone else in exploiting an angle that motivated him notcthr moneyFrancisUrquhart said:The MP fiddling £700, reminds me of that story of the city worker on mega bucks who fiddled his train ticket to save a couple of grand a year...what total idiots.
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Perhaps, doesn't seem quite so clever now....Charles said:
In that case I think it was the feeling that he was “cleverer” than everyone else in exploiting an angle that motivated him notcthr moneyFrancisUrquhart said:The MP fiddling £700, reminds me of that story of the city worker on mega bucks who fiddled his train ticket to save a couple of grand a year...what total idiots.
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But you are talking about more than half of your party membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The hardline brexiteers are UKIP in disguise and not the conservative partyRichard_Tyndall said:
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
UKIP infestation of my party needs eliminatingScrapheap_as_was said:Steve Baker - who resigned of course so distancing himself from the levers presumably....
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
Now on the detail of Brexit and the need for the Deal to pass I am with you all the way. But when you get to the point where almost 60% of your party wants No Deal and there has been no significant increase in party membership to indicate entryism you really do have to consider who it is who is the real voice of the Tory party. I wish it was you but the facts say otherwise.0 -
But the problem with web sites being overloaded is not the counting and not any other programming issue. Any decent upto date desktop PC can cope with the small amount of data this petition is processing and the corresponding update of the html file. The problem is that the that internet users are collectively asking for more data than the server can provide.MattW said:
Their statement is that counts are being updated every half hour, and it doesn't exactly take much resource to keep a text file up to date - they should have a half-decent cache setup.edmundintokyo said:
Are you just taking about the fact that the country breakdown doesn't add up to the total number? The data's probably out-of-date. They've slowed the updates of the count right down, presumably to reduce the load, and the query that does the groupings would probably be slower than the count one.MattW said:IMO that petition looks pretty dodgy.
60% of the signatures appear to be unidentifiable.
Be pleased to be proved wrong; I thought that this petition platform was the gold standard.
https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1109067689656569861
We'll see.
It's a fair opinion that the government petitions department could havepaid more money for the possibility that at some point over 1 Million people want to sign a petition in 24 hours, but then again I'm sure they thought about the negative headlines about "wasting taxpayers money in times of austerity" when the Daily Mail found out0 -
I think the magistrates have kicked it up to the crown court because their sentencing powers are insufficient.Sean_F said:As he pleaded guilty in a Magistrate's Court, he can't be given a 12 month sentence.
So, unless he resigns voluntarily, voters will have to go down the route of a recall petition.0 -
Problem: They could hold indicative vote by AV and yet still get into situation where winning option can't win a straight Yes/No vote at the end.
So: They need to pass a motion BEFORE THEY START to approve proposition that AV winner will then be implemented.0 -
I'd be amazed if Russia and China haven't found a way to add signatures to the UK petition site.0
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Will he be promoting any particular option in next week's indicative votes? His support will be influential.Pulpstar said:0 -
But they could still vote implementation down on the grounds that 'they changed their minds'. And I'm sure you couldn't legally agree to implement something before you knew what it was.MikeL said:Problem: They could hold indicative vote by AV and yet still get into situation where winning option can't win a straight vote at the end.
So: They need to pass a motion BEFORE THEY START to approve proposition that AV winner will then be implemented.0 -
I don't know whether there is any hard data on this, but my gut instinct based upon my time as an activist is that there used to be a fairly balanced (or split if you prefer) view on Europe and other areas that I would call traditionally right wing, versus those of us of moderate views. Many moderates have left, or like me, remain members but are inactive leaving those left largely talking to their navels and getting more convinced of their own correctness. Many political activists, particularly the less bright, only mix with other political activists and their views are never properly challenged. The hardline activists appear to now have control of the party and they are selecting candidates in their own image.Richard_Tyndall said:
But you are talking about more than half of your party membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The hardline brexiteers are UKIP in disguise and not the conservative partyRichard_Tyndall said:
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
UKIP infestation of my party needs eliminatingScrapheap_as_was said:Steve Baker - who resigned of course so distancing himself from the levers presumably....
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
Now on the detail of Brexit and the need for the Deal to pass I am with you all the way. But when you get to the point where almost 60% of your party wants No Deal and there has been no significant increase in party membership to indicate entryism you really do have to consider who it is who is the real voice of the Tory party. I wish it was you but the facts say otherwise.0 -
two votes one on the WA and one on the PD? Give me a break.Richard_Nabavi said:
Political DeclarationGIN1138 said:
I'm lost with all the terminology these days so what's the "PD"?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/11090529339608064020 -
But is it ?Richard_Nabavi said:This could be significant:
https://twitter.com/woodstockjag/status/1109052933960806402
The problem isn't really with the WA per se (if you aren't concerned by the end to freedom of movement, then it's actually a very good deal indeed; if you are, then less so), but what comes after the transitional arrangement, which is what it is*.
That, of course, depends upon what government we have for the next couple of years. There is now so little trust in the current administration (and Corbyn would be no better), that the unwillingness of MPs to vote for it is now perfectly understandable.
And I say that as someone who was entirely prepared (though far from delighted) to countenance approval of the WA, earlier on in the process.
*Unless you're a paranoid ERGot, in which case you believe it's a permanent vassal state plot.0 -
Two zeroes. He meant 200-300.RobD said:
Missing a zero there, I think!Fenman said:Given that this by election would take place in the early summer the local government elections will have an impact. As the Tories are likely to lose 2-300 seats to the Lib Dems this should help swing it their way and sound the death knell of the tiggers at the same time. I would, by the way, like the odds on all three main parties having new leaders by the end of the conference season...
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I suppose it is possible, but considering Putin loves Brexit, very very unlikelyAndyJS said:I'd be amazed if Russia and China haven't found a way to add signatures to the UK petition site.
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Good afternoon, everyone.
Slightly odd. Got signed out immediately after signing in. Clearly the EU/Putin want to silence me!0 -
Agreed - it's difficult - a bit like implementing Brexit up to now!TudorRose said:
But they could still vote implementation down on the grounds that 'they changed their minds'. And I'm sure you couldn't legally agree to implement something before you knew what it was.MikeL said:Problem: They could hold indicative vote by AV and yet still get into situation where winning option can't win a straight vote at the end.
So: They need to pass a motion BEFORE THEY START to approve proposition that AV winner will then be implemented.
The problem is that unless they try something, the indicative votes will be a waste of time - as winner can still be rejected.
So I think the best option would be to try to get MPs to "promise" to implement winner - if all Parliamentary big beasts (Party leaders etc) promised to do so in advance then hopefully that should be enough.0 -
Agreed. And if there are to be 7 options I would suggest a league system. Each option has a straight binary match up against every other one, hence 6 matches each and 21 matches in total - perfect because that is how many days we have until 12/4 cliff edge day. So, one match is 'played' each day. 2 points to the winner (of the vote), 1 apiece in the unlikely but possible event of a tie.RoyalBlue said:I think secret indicative votes are fine, provided that the winning option is expressly confirmed in an open vote in the usual way, so that MPs in favour and against can be held to account for their decision.
So, for example, Match 1 is Norway vs MayDeal, Match 2 is REF2 vs Canada, Match 3 is Revoke vs JobsFirstBrexit, Match 4 is No Deal vs REF2 etc etc ... all the way through to the final match on 12/4 between (say) No Deal and Revoke.
The winner is then the option topping the league table, i.e. the one that has accrued the most points (from a maximum of 12) over the series of matches.
Beauty of this is that there can be no fluke winner. Just as the best team always wins the Premier League, so in this case the most popular Brexit option must prevail.
A further benefit is that there would be some spicy 'derby' action to enjoy - e.g. No Deal vs Canada and REF2 vs Revoke. The latter in particular would be a real 6 pointer. Well, not literally obviously, that would fatally taint the process, but you know what I mean.0 -
O/T
Sad news.
"Mary Warnock embodied the best of Britain’s ruling class before Thatcher
Andrew Brown
Her ambition was harnessed to a kind of patriotism and an ideal of serving society that is much less widely believed in today"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/22/mary-warnock-britain-ruling-class-thatcher-patriotism-serving-society0 -
I am finding the "leave comment" slower than the average one finger typist0
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Cicero put it correctly, in Lustrum, by Robert Harris.rural_voter said:
It should be a secret ballot throughout._Anazina_ said:
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.Nigel_Foremain said:
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .numbertwelve said:
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.TudorRose said:
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.Nigelb said:
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Source: BBC R4.
If you can't stand the hard knocks of public life, return home and stick to breeding fish.0 -
When you have polling suggesting that 70%+ of Conservative voters favour No Deal, then it's clear the members are not much out of line.Nigel_Foremain said:
I don't know whether there is any hard data on this, but my gut instinct based upon my time as an activist is that there used to be a fairly balanced (or split if you prefer) view on Europe and other areas that I would call traditionally right wing, versus those of us of moderate views. Many moderates have left, or like me, remain members but are inactive leaving those left largely talking to their navels and getting more convinced of their own correctness. Many political activists, particularly the less bright, only mix with other political activists and their views are never properly challenged. The hardline activists appear to now have control of the party and they are selecting candidates in their own image.Richard_Tyndall said:
But you are talking about more than half of your party membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The hardline brexiteers are UKIP in disguise and not the conservative partyRichard_Tyndall said:
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
UKIP infestation of my party needs eliminatingScrapheap_as_was said:Steve Baker - who resigned of course so distancing himself from the levers presumably....
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
Now on the detail of Brexit and the need for the Deal to pass I am with you all the way. But when you get to the point where almost 60% of your party wants No Deal and there has been no significant increase in party membership to indicate entryism you really do have to consider who it is who is the real voice of the Tory party. I wish it was you but the facts say otherwise.0 -
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Yes, sad news. And how typical of a Guardian writer to make a stupid, prejudiced-soaked, hate-filled point out of it.AndyJS said:O/T
Sad news.
"Mary Warnock embodied the best of Britain’s ruling class before Thatcher
Andrew Brown
Her ambition was harnessed to a kind of patriotism and an ideal of serving society that is much less widely believed in today"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/22/mary-warnock-britain-ruling-class-thatcher-patriotism-serving-society0 -
You'd need sponsors. Brexit IV Semi-Final 1 supported by Popcorn-U-Like....kinabalu said:
Agreed. And if there are to be 7 options I would suggest a league system. Each option has a straight binary match up against every other one, hence 6 matches each and 21 matches in total - perfect because that is how many days we have until 12/4 cliff edge day. So, one match is 'played' each day. 2 points to the winner (of the vote), 1 apiece in the unlikely but possible event of a tie.RoyalBlue said:I think secret indicative votes are fine, provided that the winning option is expressly confirmed in an open vote in the usual way, so that MPs in favour and against can be held to account for their decision.
So, for example, Match 1 is Norway vs MayDeal, Match 2 is REF2 vs Canada, Match 3 is Revoke vs JobsFirstBrexit, Match 4 is No Deal vs REF2 etc etc ... all the way through to the final match on 12/4 between (say) No Deal and Revoke.
The winner is then the option topping the league table, i.e. the one that has accrued the most points (from a maximum of 12) over the series of matches.
Beauty of this is that there can be no fluke winner. Just as the best team always wins the Premier League, so in this case the most popular Brexit option must prevail.
A further benefit is that there would be some spicy 'derby' action to enjoy - e.g. No Deal vs Canada and REF2 vs Revoke. The latter in particular would be a real 6 pointer. Well, not literally obviously, that would fatally taint the process, but you know what I mean.0 -
If MPs were willing to make a decision and be held accountable for it, we wouldn't be in this mess...RoyalBlue said:I think secret indicative votes are fine, provided that the winning option is expressly confirmed in an open vote in the usual way, so that MPs in favour and against can be held to account for their decision.
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Collective insanity resulting from too much reading the Daily Mail or Express.Sean_F said:
When you have polling suggesting that 70%+ of Conservative voters favour No Deal, then it's clear the members are not much out of line.Nigel_Foremain said:
I don't know whether there is any hard data on this, but my gut instinct based upon my time as an activist is that there used to be a fairly balanced (or split if you prefer) view on Europe and other areas that I would call traditionally right wing, versus those of us of moderate views. Many moderates have left, or like me, remain members but are inactive leaving those left largely talking to their navels and getting more convinced of their own correctness. Many political activists, particularly the less bright, only mix with other political activists and their views are never properly challenged. The hardline activists appear to now have control of the party and they are selecting candidates in their own image.Richard_Tyndall said:
But you are talking about more than half of your party membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The hardline brexiteers are UKIP in disguise and not the conservative partyRichard_Tyndall said:
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
UKIP infestation of my party needs eliminatingScrapheap_as_was said:Steve Baker - who resigned of course so distancing himself from the levers presumably....
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
Now on the detail of Brexit and the need for the Deal to pass I am with you all the way. But when you get to the point where almost 60% of your party wants No Deal and there has been no significant increase in party membership to indicate entryism you really do have to consider who it is who is the real voice of the Tory party. I wish it was you but the facts say otherwise.0 -
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Hard knocks is one thing, Sean, but getting topped? We've lost one already, and that's one too many.Sean_F said:
Cicero put it correctly, in Lustrum, by Robert Harris.rural_voter said:
It should be a secret ballot throughout._Anazina_ said:
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.Nigel_Foremain said:
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .numbertwelve said:
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.TudorRose said:
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.Nigelb said:
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Source: BBC R4.
If you can't stand the hard knocks of public life, return home and stick to breeding fish.0 -
[Reply deleted. Didn't make sense]_Anazina_ said:
It's not a 'vote in parliament', it's a vote of MPs (who may or may not be in parliament when they strike their pencils against the ballot paper). You could just as well do a YouGov poll of all 650 MPs to get an indicative survey of their preferences and tolerances for and of various proposals.numbertwelve said:
The example you gave about the leadership of the Tory Party is a completely different issue because that is an internal matter for the Tory Party and it’s constitution, not Parliament: they could change the electorate from MPs if they wanted and conduct that leadership contest whatever way they decide (indeed back in the day they basically just let the men in grey suits decide over lunch). You can legitimately criticise their voting system for all sorts of reasons but it is not an accurate comparison with what is being proposed here._Anazina_ said:
Why? His point was flawed because the IV is non-binding. There are existing examples of secret ballots of MPs where there is a public interest that ARE binding. I have just given a prominent one upthread.viewcode said:
I agree with you.numbertwelve said:
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.TudorRose said:
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.Nigelb said:
I hate to be a purist but I do think it is important that our MPs votes in Parliament are recorded. They are accountable to the public and the only way of making them accountable is allowing the public to assess their actions.0 -
Exactamundo. That is what solves this puzzle. Pass the WA and leave on 22/5. Ice the PD and revisit after a GE where the Tories (under new leader) run on significant divergence and Labour run on close alignment. Result of that GE determines the path we take.Pulpstar said:Norway+, Canada+, Common Market 2.0, May's deal and Corbyn's Customs Unicorn all should in theory contain the same WA....
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Surprised he's not a Bennite?Scott_P said:0 -
You're right. Russian bots are sophisticated enough to spoof this petition and the 2016 referendum...RobD said:
Russian bots aren’t sophisticated enough to spoof IP addresses (if that’s even how that is determined) but yet threw the 2016 referendum?Anorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/1109079185987915779 0 -
Now just the express. The mail is pro dealNigel_Foremain said:
Collective insanity resulting from too much reading the Daily Mail or Express.Sean_F said:
When you have polling suggesting that 70%+ of Conservative voters favour No Deal, then it's clear the members are not much out of line.Nigel_Foremain said:
I don't know whether there is any hard data on this, but my gut instinct based upon my time as an activist is that there used to be a fairly balanced (or split if you prefer) view on Europe and other areas that I would call traditionally right wing, versus those of us of moderate views. Many moderates have left, or like me, remain members but are inactive leaving those left largely talking to their navels and getting more convinced of their own correctness. Many political activists, particularly the less bright, only mix with other political activists and their views are never properly challenged. The hardline activists appear to now have control of the party and they are selecting candidates in their own image.Richard_Tyndall said:
But you are talking about more than half of your party membership.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The hardline brexiteers are UKIP in disguise and not the conservative partyRichard_Tyndall said:
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?Big_G_NorthWales said:
UKIP infestation of my party needs eliminatingScrapheap_as_was said:Steve Baker - who resigned of course so distancing himself from the levers presumably....
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
Now on the detail of Brexit and the need for the Deal to pass I am with you all the way. But when you get to the point where almost 60% of your party wants No Deal and there has been no significant increase in party membership to indicate entryism you really do have to consider who it is who is the real voice of the Tory party. I wish it was you but the facts say otherwise.0 -
An interview with Sir John Curtis. (I don't think this is the full version, but the full version hasn't been posted yet).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFcEa05pRQM0 -
Thirty years ago, MPs ran the risk of being murdered by the IRA, a much more formidable threat than any they face today.Peter_the_Punter said:
Hard knocks is one thing, Sean, but getting topped? We've lost one already, and that's one too many.Sean_F said:
Cicero put it correctly, in Lustrum, by Robert Harris.rural_voter said:
It should be a secret ballot throughout._Anazina_ said:
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.Nigel_Foremain said:
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .numbertwelve said:
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.TudorRose said:
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.Nigelb said:
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Source: BBC R4.
If you can't stand the hard knocks of public life, return home and stick to breeding fish.0 -
I see Billy Bragg prefers to ignore the ballot box in favour of the protest march. Daft sod.0
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Could an amendment be tabled to the MV that means a GE is triggered if it is passed?kinabalu said:
Exactamundo. That is what solves this puzzle. Pass the WA and leave on 22/5. Ice the PD and revisit after a GE where the Tories (under new leader) run on significant divergence and Labour run on close alignment. Result of that GE determines the path we take.Pulpstar said:Norway+, Canada+, Common Market 2.0, May's deal and Corbyn's Customs Unicorn all should in theory contain the same WA....
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How's the march going? Are they slowing it down so it can arrive on 12 April rather than 29 March?Nigel_Foremain said:
When Farage has the temerity to talk about Russian bots you know they are worriedAnorak said:
Sad, isn't it. A small, utterly negligible sample means the whole thing is completely worthless, apparently.Nigel_Foremain said:
of course not, we mustn't take any piece of evidence that suggests the tenets of the new religion might be wrong! Discredit them as blasphemers!!Norm said:Whty we shouldn't take the revoke petition too seriously
https://twitter.com/Sapere_vivere/status/1109017814537564160
But point out the shenanigans of the Leave campaign...0 -
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1109078649532235777?s=20
This is fascinating polling on four Brexit options.
No deal is clearly inferior to both Ref2 and Norway+, since more people dislike it and fewer like it than either of these other options.
May's deal is clearly inferior to Norway+, since more people dislike it and fewer like it (although Ref2 is more popular than May's deal, it is also more unpopular).
This suggests either Ref2 or Norway+ would be reasonable options, although Ref2 is more polarising with more likes and dislikes than the latter.
My personal preference is Ref2 but Norway+ is a good compromise, as the least unpopular and second most popular outcome.
It feels like Norway+ aka BINO will be where we end up. Kind of a pointless waste of three years, but hey ho, thanks Dave.0 -
Venue's booked. Can't change it now, mate...anothernick said:How's the march going? Are they slowing it down so it can arrive on 12 April rather than 29 March?
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YouGov also add an "Acceptable" outcome which provides a substantial lead for "soft" Brexit, tiny lead for Remain, and level-pegging for May's deal.OnlyLivingBoy said:https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1109078649532235777?s=20
This is fascinating polling on four Brexit options.
No deal is clearly inferior to both Ref2 and Norway+, since more people dislike it and fewer like it than either of these other options.
May's deal is clearly inferior to Norway+, since more people dislike it and fewer like it (although Ref2 is more popular than May's deal, it is also more unpopular).
This suggests either Ref2 or Norway+ would be reasonable options, although Ref2 is more polarising with more likes and dislikes than the latter.
My personal preference is Ref2 but Norway+ is a good compromise, as the least unpopular and second most popular outcome.
It feels like Norway+ aka BINO will be where we end up. Kind of a pointless waste of three years, but hey ho, thanks Dave.0 -
The wasted three years is a sunk cost, and irrelevant to the decision now.OnlyLivingBoy said:https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1109078649532235777?s=20
This is fascinating polling on four Brexit options.
No deal is clearly inferior to both Ref2 and Norway+, since more people dislike it and fewer like it than either of these other options.
May's deal is clearly inferior to Norway+, since more people dislike it and fewer like it (although Ref2 is more popular than May's deal, it is also more unpopular).
This suggests either Ref2 or Norway+ would be reasonable options, although Ref2 is more polarising with more likes and dislikes than the latter.
My personal preference is Ref2 but Norway+ is a good compromise, as the least unpopular and second most popular outcome.
It feels like Norway+ aka BINO will be where we end up. Kind of a pointless waste of three years, but hey ho, thanks Dave.
As I said first thing this morning, Norway will piss a lot of people off, but less so than the alternatives.
And is the only option which might conceivably mark a truce in the Brexiteer/Remainer war, which will otherwise continue unabated.0 -
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My reading of the relevant legislation and statutory instruments is that the European Parliament Elections Act 2002 is still partially in force.
This Act is specified in Schedule 9 European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 as an Act due to be repealed. Section 25 specifies that the repeal is only effected on a date that is specified by statutory instrument.
SI 2018/808 specified that section 1A and Schedule 1A of EPEA 2002 was repealed on 4 July 2018. This relates to redistribution of MEP seats.
The remaining Act is repealed on Exit Day (defined as 29 March 2019 at 11pm).
So if Exit Day is changed, for example for a long delay, the provisions of EPEA 2002 remain in force and there is no need for new legislation.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/contents
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/808/contents/made0 -
I wouldn't stake too much on that three legged donkey!stodge said:0 -
Can't speak for Billy Bragg as always thought he was a plonker, but I am amused s to why those that are so keen on ballot boxes only seem to like the ones from 2016. Can I assume Mr Dancer that had Remain won by a small margin you would not have been endorsing marches and asking for a further referendum?? A lot has changed since 2016Morris_Dancer said:I see Billy Bragg prefers to ignore the ballot box in favour of the protest march. Daft sod.
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....or at some indeterminate time! I think we can say it will probably be going rather better than Nigel Farage's one haha!anothernick said:
How's the march going? Are they slowing it down so it can arrive on 12 April rather than 29 March?Nigel_Foremain said:
When Farage has the temerity to talk about Russian bots you know they are worriedAnorak said:
Sad, isn't it. A small, utterly negligible sample means the whole thing is completely worthless, apparently.Nigel_Foremain said:
of course not, we mustn't take any piece of evidence that suggests the tenets of the new religion might be wrong! Discredit them as blasphemers!!Norm said:Whty we shouldn't take the revoke petition too seriously
https://twitter.com/Sapere_vivere/status/1109017814537564160
But point out the shenanigans of the Leave campaign...0 -
Germany biggest export industry is capital goods, and the slowdown in China is dramatically impacting demandAnorak said:Aaaaany minut now, they'll realise that the EU caving on Brexit is the only thing that will save them. Soon. Very soon...
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1109092601624444928
See https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/deu/0 -
Good afternoon, everybody.
I'm a bit confused. Up to yesterday the leaving date was written into the UK law as 29 March, or so I'd understood. Now the EU have decided to offer an extension (good) and the date written into UK law has been superceded by the EU's offer?
How did that happen? Or are there plans to change the law to the new date?
Any help welcome. Thanks in anticipation.0 -
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Mr. Foremain, had Remain won then, assuming there wasn't some new dramatic shift or treaty, I would've accepted it, certainly for the current period and probably for circa 15-20 years, depending how things went.
You write that 'those' (including me) keen on ballot boxes only cite 2016: that's because that's almost the only one anyone wants to overturn.
The only other potential example is a second Scottish referendum, and I oppose that too.
I never called for any General Election or referendum result to be overturned.
Why do you accept ballot box results for everything except this?0 -
Good afternoon, Miss JGP.
I believe a new bill has to pass the Commons to amend the exit date.0 -
The map is based on self-entered postcode. If there are a lot of bot sigs, they are doing a very good job of modelling a distribution of postcodes reflecting the Remain vote in 2016.RobD said:
It was partly tongue in cheek, but the concern with these petitions is a real one. It really isn’t difficult to pretend you are in the UK. I have no doubt the vast majority are real though.Anorak said:
Tin. Foil. Hat.RobD said:
Russian bots aren’t sophisticated enough to spoof IP addresses (if that’s even how that is determined) but yet threw the 2016 referendum?Anorak said:Analysis 1, Conspiracy Lunacy 0. Really weird how the places with the most expats are closest to the top of the list. Craaaaaazy.
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/1109079185987915779
But we should recognise your greater expertise, posting here from thousands of miles away.0 -
:-)TudorRose said:You'd need sponsors. Brexit IV Semi-Final 1 supported by Popcorn-U-Like....
And there would be plenty of interest, I would have thought.
However, almost as soon as I hit POST I realized a fatal flaw - the very serious risk of match fixing.
Final game, REF2 vs REVOKE, and REF2 needs the win to top the table, just pipping JobsFirstBrexit, whereas REVOKE is tailed off and out of the reckoning.
What's to stop REVOKE throwing it?
And if they do, presenting victory to REF2 on a platter, what will be the reaction of the supporters of JobsFirstBrexit? Will they riot?0 -
Running a huge trade surplus is better than running a huge trade deficit - but it can leave you dependent on the kindness of strangers too.rcs1000 said:
Germany biggest export industry is capital goods, and the slowdown in China is dramatically impacting demandAnorak said:Aaaaany minut now, they'll realise that the EU caving on Brexit is the only thing that will save them. Soon. Very soon...
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1109092601624444928
See https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/deu/0 -
That would remove one roadblock.Verulamius said:My reading of the relevant legislation and statutory instruments is that the European Parliament Elections Act 2002 is still partially in force.
This Act is specified in Schedule 9 European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 as an Act due to be repealed. Section 25 specifies that the repeal is only effected on a date that is specified by statutory instrument.
SI 2018/808 specified that section 1A and Schedule 1A of EPEA 2002 was repealed on 4 July 2018. This relates to redistribution of MEP seats.
The remaining Act is repealed on Exit Day (defined as 29 March 2019 at 11pm).
So if Exit Day is changed, for example for a long delay, the provisions of EPEA 2002 remain in force and there is no need for new legislation.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/contents
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/808/contents/made
Has the date of Exit Day been changed yet? Doesn't an SI need approval by Commons and Lords?0 -
And pro deal. I subscribe to the on line newspaperstodge said:0 -
I accept that Leave won the vote. I don't accept that Leave won the argument.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Foremain, had Remain won then, assuming there wasn't some new dramatic shift or treaty, I would've accepted it, certainly for the current period and probably for circa 15-20 years, depending how things went.
You write that 'those' (including me) keen on ballot boxes only cite 2016: that's because that's almost the only one anyone wants to overturn.
The only other potential example is a second Scottish referendum, and I oppose that too.
I never called for any General Election or referendum result to be overturned.
Why do you accept ballot box results for everything except this?0
