EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Basically no extension beyond 11 April unless legislation passed as it would invalidate the EU parliament if we haven't returned MEPs and essentially break the EU
If we revoke we would contest the EU Parliament elections anyway
Got to pass the enabling legislation in time though
If we revoke the EU would extend to allow for that as they would then know Parliament has voted to cancel Brexit
They cannot under EU law make any exceptions. Enabling bill needed even or especially for revoke
Sadly it won't matter if it reached 60 million. Leavers and faux-remainers like Mrs May have the result they want and they will stick with it even if it meant complete meltdown. They put party before country and they are reflected by Mr Thicky and his Marxist cohorts on the opposite benches.
Actually I think it starts to matter when it gets to about 10 million as it is then starting to get into the territory in which real referendums are won and lost.
Obviously there will be multiple voting to some extent - what checks are there to stop that ?
Michael Heseltine keynote speaker at tomorrow's 'People's Vote' March alongside Nicola Sturgeon, David Lammy, Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Vince Cable and Caroline Lucas
Great to see Hezza going strong at his ripe age. I was never a fan of his politics but he is a serious guy – and a gentleman to boot.
Tarzan and Sir John Major have gone up greatly in my estimation over these last few years, during this debacle. I judged Major in particular far too harshly, back in the 90s.
I've disconcerted myself that I've done similar with Reagan and various Bushes. There's always something/someone worse round the corner, eh?
Bush snr is one of the most despicable men ever to hold office in the States
Well, he had wandering hands, but there have been far worse US office holders. Any of Kennedy, Nixon, Clinton, and Trump should have gone to prison.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Do we have to pass the legislation by 12 April (or 13 April, depending on the frantic discussions taking place in Strasbourg right now)? Maybe we can declare our intent by the 12th and get the legislation through in the days following.
No -
The enabling legislation has to have received royal assent by the 12th April otherwise we cannot stand MEPs in the campaign starting on the 12th April. That is why the EU named this date
Do you have a link to your source for this, by the way? I'm coming up short on a site wonkish enough to cover this all in detail.
Not really but I have been following this serious issue for weeks and it has been confirmed from various sources here and in the EU, as we could not be in the EU without representation without voiding the EU elections themselves
I honestly do not want to be sounding awkward
There must be provision for postponing one country's election. What if one had a serious natural disaster, for example?
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Do we have to pass the legislation by 12 April (or 13 April, depending on the frantic discussions taking place in Strasbourg right now)? Maybe we can declare our intent by the 12th and get the legislation through in the days following.
No -
The enabling legislation has to have received royal assent by the 12th April otherwise we cannot stand MEPs in the campaign starting on the 12th April. That is why the EU named this date
Do you have a link to your source for this, by the way? I'm coming up short on a site wonkish enough to cover this all in detail.
Not really but I have been following this serious issue for weeks and it has been confirmed from various sources here and in the EU, as we could not be in the EU without representation without voiding the EU elections themselves
I honestly do not want to be sounding awkward
I think there's a huge bias in the political community to downplaying the importance of technical matters like this, so I think it's great you're bringing it to the forefront
Michael Heseltine keynote speaker at tomorrow's 'People's Vote' March alongside Nicola Sturgeon, David Lammy, Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Vince Cable and Caroline Lucas
Great to see Hezza going strong at his ripe age. I was never a fan of his politics but he is a serious guy – and a gentleman to boot.
Tarzan and Sir John Major have gone up greatly in my estimation over these last few years, during this debacle. I judged Major in particular far too harshly, back in the 90s.
I've disconcerted myself that I've done similar with Reagan and various Bushes. There's always something/someone worse round the corner, eh?
Certainly George Bush Jr is an intelligent moderate in comparison to the racist moron that currently slithers around the Oval Office.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
As long as it gets an outcome its still better than no deal
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Do we have to pass the legislation by 12 April (or 13 April, depending on the frantic discussions taking place in Strasbourg right now)? Maybe we can declare our intent by the 12th and get the legislation through in the days following.
No -
The enabling legislation has to have received royal assent by the 12th April otherwise we cannot stand MEPs in the campaign starting on the 12th April. That is why the EU named this date
Do you have a link to your source for this, by the way? I'm coming up short on a site wonkish enough to cover this all in detail.
Not really but I have been following this serious issue for weeks and it has been confirmed from various sources here and in the EU, as we could not be in the EU without representation without voiding the EU elections themselves
I honestly do not want to be sounding awkward
I think there's a huge bias in the political community to downplaying the importance of technical matters like this, so I think it's great you're bringing it to the forefront
I really appreciate your comment. I know I have been boring on about it but it really is relevant to a lot of issues
HMG considering allowing mps to vote on seven alternative brexit options next week
Good news if true
If a referendum commands majority support it could get the enabling legislation through
I think May WA + Common Market 2.0 PD is the better bet, and would probably clinch 326 (or whatever the exact winning margin is currently). Fingers crossed that is what we get as I have no appetite for another referendum, unless absolutely necessary.
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Do we have to pass the legislation by 12 April (or 13 April, depending on the frantic discussions taking place in Strasbourg right now)? Maybe we can declare our intent by the 12th and get the legislation through in the days following.
No -
The enabling legislation has to have received royal assent by the 12th April otherwise we cannot stand MEPs in the campaign starting on the 12th April. That is why the EU named this date
Do you have a link to your source for this, by the way? I'm coming up short on a site wonkish enough to cover this all in detail.
Not really but I have been following this serious issue for weeks and it has been confirmed from various sources here and in the EU, as we could not be in the EU without representation without voiding the EU elections themselves
I honestly do not want to be sounding awkward
There must be provision for postponing one country's election. What if one had a serious natural disaster, for example?
The EU cannot pospone their elections starting three weeks today and we cannot be part of Europe without the enabling bill and taking part
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
The Boles plan is to pass Norway+ as the political declaration but leave the Withdrawal Agreement unchanged so it can then be passed as a Withdrawal Agreement leading to BINO
Apparently in the background a lot of prep has been done on this.
I really appreciate your comment. I know I have been boring on about it but it really is relevant to a lot of issues
You are absolutely right. It's the first rule of politics, and even more so the first rule of political betting, that you need to understand the mechanics and the legal constraints.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
As long as it gets an outcome its still better than no deal
I disagree (and I hate the thought of no deal). There will then be a precedent set that anything politically sensitive can be decided by secret ballot. That does not allow the public to scrutinise their MPs voting records.
HMG considering allowing mps to vote on seven alternative brexit options next week
Good news if true
If a referendum commands majority support it could get the enabling legislation through
I think May WA + Common Market 2.0 PD is the better bet, and would probably clinch 326 (or whatever the exact winning margin is currently). Fingers crossed that is what we get as I have no appetite for another referendum, unless absolutely necessary.
I would really like to see that compromise and it is there
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Do we have to pass the legislation by 12 April (or 13 April, depending on the frantic discussions taking place in Strasbourg right now)? Maybe we can declare our intent by the 12th and get the legislation through in the days following.
No -
The enabling legislation has to have received royal assent by the 12th April otherwise we cannot stand MEPs in the campaign starting on the 12th April. That is why the EU named this date
Do you have a link to your source for this, by the way? I'm coming up short on a site wonkish enough to cover this all in detail.
Not really but I have been following this serious issue for weeks and it has been confirmed from various sources here and in the EU, as we could not be in the EU without representation without voiding the EU elections themselves
I honestly do not want to be sounding awkward
I think there's a huge bias in the political community to downplaying the importance of technical matters like this, so I think it's great you're bringing it to the forefront
I really appreciate your comment. I know I have been boring on about it but it really is relevant to a lot of issues
Nevertheless your certainty on the point regardless of challenges isn't very convincing.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Basically no extension beyond 11 April unless legislation passed as it would invalidate the EU parliament if we haven't returned MEPs and essentially break the EU
If we revoke we would contest the EU Parliament elections anyway
Got to pass the enabling legislation in time though
If we revoke the EU would extend to allow for that as they would then know Parliament has voted to cancel Brexit
They cannot under EU law make any exceptions. Enabling bill needed even or especially for revoke
The enabling bill by 12 April is only to hold EU elections. Dont need to enable a referendum or anything else until later. Yes the ERG nutters will try and block it but they will only get 100 votes between them at the most.
So not a major hurdle (but one that must not be overlooked)
What should the benchmark be set at for the People's Vote tomorrow, bearing in mind that under 50 did Nigel Farage's Leave Means Leave march?
Good one Alastair
I was also wondering what the maximum number of votes a pro-Brexit petition has received?
I'm guessing less than 300,000 but I don't know for sure. The current one has reached 3.1 million.
Rory Stewart is valiantly defending the PM on R4 and seems to be pretending that an extension is conditional on MV3. If we approve the sodding 'deal' subject to a referendum, and take part in the EU elections, of course the EU will allow a delay.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
I agree with you. But the MPs are paralysed and will not make a decision, despite being entrusted with that responsibility by the courts. If I was PM I'd petition the court to remove that responsibility from them because they are unable to discharge it. But I'm not, so we need a different way forward.nif this helps them to make a decision then I am all for it.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
As long as it gets an outcome its still better than no deal
I disagree (and I hate the thought of no deal). There will then be a precedent set that anything politically sensitive can be decided by secret ballot. That does not allow the public to scrutinise their MPs voting records.
Aren't Tory voncs among the PCP done by secret ballot? There can barely be a more critical vote for the public than whether or not the leader of the country survives.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
I don’t like to insult other people’s intelligence, and merely by virtue of being elected to Parliament he’s achieved more with his life than I have, but Steve Baker really isn’t the full shilling.
Michael Heseltine keynote speaker at tomorrow's 'People's Vote' March alongside Nicola Sturgeon, David Lammy, Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Vince Cable and Caroline Lucas
Great to see Hezza going strong at his ripe age. I was never a fan of his politics but he is a serious guy – and a gentleman to boot.
Tarzan and Sir John Major have gone up greatly in my estimation over these last few years, during this debacle. I judged Major in particular far too harshly, back in the 90s.
Yes, I think that was true for many of us, me included.
My view of him has gone the other way. This is the man who was taken for a ride by the EU over opt outs, wrote a whining letter to the Commission complaining about it and was only saved from being shown up as completely toothless and inept by losing the election in 97.
His opinion of Brexit is one of those which should be consigned to the bin unopened.
You don't afford him significant credit over his role in clearing the way to the Good Friday Agreement?
I did not say he didn't do some good things. Only that his views on Brexit are utterly compromised by his hypocrisy.
I’m amazed that this vast seat in mid Wales is Tory.
The Welsh have never struck me as particularly fond of the blue team.
The Conservatives do well in rural, English-speaking constituencies.
There was quite a lot of coal-mining in the South of the constituency, and it voted Labour from 1939-79. Then it went Conservative, before being won by the Liberals in 1985. and has been a Con/Lib Dem marginal seat ever since.
And something of Liberal tradition like other rural Welsh seats - the Liberals polled 20% in 1945 for example
I love the way you point to 20 per cent of the vote over seventy years ago with pride.
There is something irredeemably poignant about the LibDems.
We have the Lab and Tory parties led by seriously flawed individuals, and even then the LibDems can't make progress.
What is the chance that the Labour and Tories will ever be led simultaneously by such incompetent individuals ever again. Under a fraction of a per cent.
Let's be brutally honest. Or just brutal.
If the LibDems can't make progress when Corby and Theresa are their opponents, and when they are the only party advocating what 48 per cent (possibly more now) of the population want in the major issue of the day, then they should pack it in.
The issue there is that the Lib Dems are also led by a seriously flawed individual.
Or at least, if not flawed, then deeply somnolent.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
It should be a secret ballot throughout.
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
I agree with you. But the MPs are paralysed and will not make a decision, despite being entrusted with that responsibility by the courts. If I was PM I'd petition the court to remove that responsibility from them because they are unable to discharge it. But I'm not, so we need a different way forward.nif this helps them to make a decision then I am all for it.
That’s the wrong way round. The courts have held they have always had that responsibility - the power was not with the executive. The courts cannot take power away from Parliament. The courts may rule in what is Parliament’s preserve and what is the executive’s, but it cannot unilaterally reassign. The Gina Miller case involved the Supreme Court saying that the ability to leave the EU lay with, and had always lain with, the legislature. They didn’t entrust them with anything - they can’t - courts only interpret.
Very tasteless, if true though probably a set up. Not sure that righteous indignation about taste from such a website owned by the twattish Mr Staines carries quite the weight that it could.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
I agree with you.
Why? His point was flawed because the IV is non-binding. There are existing examples of secret ballots of MPs where there is a public interest that ARE binding. I have just given a prominent one upthread.
Another in the series of “MPs are stupid”. Looks a great target for the Lib Dems.
This is the issue I have. I don't really mind MPs being crooks. I practically expect them to be. For that matter I don't really mind so much if they're stupid, ditto. But crooked *and* stupid is a bit hard to take.
As with the expenses scandal, it's the triviality that galls. If you're going to be bent, make sure you get yourself a plutonium-powered helicopter or a personal MagLev line from your home to the House of Commons.
Yes, rather than having wysteria cleared off your chimney or splitting an uninvoiced cash in hand cleaner with your brother and acting all offended anyone might think it iffy
Ah yes.. A former PM's brother's cleaner. As long as you dont dig to deeply.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
Yep
It really doesn't make much sense if even the most popular option doesn't command a majority. How would it get through the Commons (and the Lords for that matter)?
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
It should be a secret ballot throughout.
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Source: BBC R4.
I would be okay with that if it helped bring about a sensible resolution. As I say, there are other examples of secret ballots of MPs within parliament.
Interesting take from Pesto. He thinks a No Deal exit on 12 April is the most likely outcome.
Pesto has being saying this for quite a while now. If he proves to be correct then clearly he's a genius given the rest of us are flaying around in a void of uncertainty.
Another in the series of “MPs are stupid”. Looks a great target for the Lib Dems.
This is the issue I have. I don't really mind MPs being crooks. I practically expect them to be. For that matter I don't really mind so much if they're stupid, ditto. But crooked *and* stupid is a bit hard to take.
As with the expenses scandal, it's the triviality that galls. If you're going to be bent, make sure you get yourself a plutonium-powered helicopter or a personal MagLev line from your home to the House of Commons.
Yes, rather than having wysteria cleared off your chimney or splitting an uninvoiced cash in hand cleaner with your brother and acting all offended anyone might think it iffy
Ah yes.. A former PM's brother's cleaner. As long as you dont dig to deeply.
At least we got to pay for his ironing though. That was totes legit
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
It should be a secret ballot throughout.
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?
It'd be amusing if Corbyn pulled the same stunt he did with the TV debates, and announced that he was turning up to the People's Vote march at the last minute. Not going to happen, obviously.
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?
The bigger problem, possibly, is the number of people in the Conservative party who seem to articulate their political viewpoints almost via a Europe only issue prism and therefore focus less / not at all on other vital areas such as Education and Health, etc.
That behaviour sends a signal and has an implication, certainly to potential voters where Europe is frankly much lower on their list of priorities, even in the midst of Brexit.
It'd be amusing if Corbyn pulled the same stunt he did with the TV debates, and announced that he was turning up to the People's Vote march at the last minute. Not going to happen, obviously.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
I agree with you.
Why? His point was flawed because the IV is non-binding. There are existing examples of secret ballots of MPs where there is a public interest that ARE binding. I have just given a prominent one upthread.
The example you gave about the leadership of the Tory Party is a completely different issue because that is an internal matter for the Tory Party and it’s constitution, not Parliament: they could change the electorate from MPs if they wanted and conduct that leadership contest whatever way they decide (indeed back in the day they basically just let the men in grey suits decide over lunch). You can legitimately criticise their voting system for all sorts of reasons but it is not an accurate comparison with what is being proposed here.
I hate to be a purist but I do think it is important that our MPs votes in Parliament are recorded. They are accountable to the public and the only way of making them accountable is allowing the public to assess their actions.
EUref2 would probably win that then but without a majority
Hmm... is it possible... could MP's themselves reach a decisive position.. alight on a solution ..actual functioning of the legislature?
Surely not.
It would not get the enabling bill past the HOC by 12th April and that is mandated for any extension
I do apologise to PB for constant repetition of this issue but it needs to colour everyone' s thoughts
I am not saying it is impossible by the 12th April but I would suggest extremely unlikely
Indeed Hyufd is very knowledgeable and I am surprised he has not refered to the enabling legislation road block
Out of interest, what happens if we haven't passed the necessary legislation by 12th April but then unilaterally revoke on that date?
Do we have to pass the legislation by 12 April (or 13 April, depending on the frantic discussions taking place in Strasbourg right now)? Maybe we can declare our intent by the 12th and get the legislation through in the days following.
No -
The enabling legislation has to have received royal assent by the 12th April otherwise we cannot stand MEPs in the campaign starting on the 12th April. That is why the EU named this date
Do you have a link to your source for this, by the way? I'm coming up short on a site wonkish enough to cover this all in detail.
Not really but I have been following this serious issue for weeks and it has been confirmed from various sources here and in the EU, as we could not be in the EU without representation without voiding the EU elections themselves
I honestly do not want to be sounding awkward
I think there's a huge bias in the political community to downplaying the importance of technical matters like this, so I think it's great you're bringing it to the forefront
I really appreciate your comment. I know I have been boring on about it but it really is relevant to a lot of issues
Nevertheless your certainty on the point regardless of challenges isn't very convincing.
Well - I do my best and it has been commented on by others as well
I am perfectly content for a link to prove I am mistaken
I think secret indicative votes are fine, provided that the winning option is expressly confirmed in an open vote in the usual way, so that MPs in favour and against can be held to account for their decision.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
I agree with you.
Why? His point was flawed because the IV is non-binding. There are existing examples of secret ballots of MPs where there is a public interest that ARE binding. I have just given a prominent one upthread.
The example you gave about the leadership of the Tory Party is a completely different issue because that is an internal matter for the Tory Party and it’s constitution, not Parliament: they could change the electorate from MPs if they wanted and conduct that leadership contest whatever way they decide (indeed back in the day they basically just let the men in grey suits decide over lunch). You can legitimately criticise their voting system for all sorts of reasons but it is not an accurate comparison with what is being proposed here.
I hate to be a purist but I do think it is important that our MPs votes in Parliament are recorded. They are accountable to the public and the only way of making them accountable is allowing the public to assess their actions.
It's not a 'vote in parliament', it's a vote of MPs (who may or may not be in parliament when they strike their pencils against the ballot paper). You could just as well do a YouGov poll of all 650 MPs to get an indicative survey of their preferences and tolerances for and of various proposals.
It'd be amusing if Corbyn pulled the same stunt he did with the TV debates, and announced that he was turning up to the People's Vote march at the last minute. Not going to happen, obviously.
Once he sees Chuka in the crowd he'll be off.
Unless someone brings along his "emotional support terrorist"......
According to the polls you are talking about almost 60% of the Tory party. With numbers like that might it not be reasonable to think that it might be you and those of your mindset who are - to use your own words and certainly not mine - the 'infestation'?
The hardline brexiteers are UKIP in disguise and not the conservative party
The comments below it are amusing. Highly offended gammons in full throat. At least now we know what to get grabcock for Xmas.
From Gammon Order Dot Com
***
Krishnan Gurning-Leftie • 13 minutes ago it’s on...
Brexit motorway protest tonight on M42 J6 6pm onwards...
These traitors need showing...
Anyone else taking part tonight?
Harry Mudd They should be careful about things like this. We need the public fully onside.. Not pissing them off when they're trying to get home at the end of the week.
***
Anyone else heard about this cunning plan to garner public support by blocking the M42 on a Friday night?
Interesting take from Pesto. He thinks a No Deal exit on 12 April is the most likely outcome.
Pesto has being saying this for quite a while now. If he proves to be correct then clearly he's a genius given the rest of us are flaying around in a void of uncertainty.
It seems the most likely outcome to me. I imagine that all those involved will be using the next 3 weeks to distance themselves as far as possible from blame for the No Deal Brexit while doing little to prevent it. The EU has already done its bit of blame shifting by granting the 2-week extension.
Can they also hand out pottery shards to be used as ostraka ?
So, it's a secret vote. That should ensure nothing gets a majority as the hardline Brexiteers will only vote for no deal and the remainers will have every incentive to vote only for revocation with complete deniability. Only an open vote will result in a compromise solution.
It would be appalling if it’s a secret ballot. MPs have to be accountable to the public for the way they vote.
They will only be indicating preferences as to what they might support should such an option be presented. It will not be a vote. It is possible of course that the Speaker might declare it ultra vires if it is taking place on the floor of the house, as I think it would be quite unprecedented .
It should be a secret ballot at first, because the indicative vote is non-binding. Once you have those numbers you can put the most popular options to a binding parliamentary vote and, hopefully, kick on from there.
It should be a secret ballot throughout.
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Source: BBC R4.
Indeed. If one wonders about the supposed preciousness of Nandy and other prominently female MPs in kicking back yesterday against May's virtual incitement against those who would oppose her, then one has forgotten that they are now routinely facing death threats of varying and often unknown credibility.
That our representatives should operate in an environment as free as possible from such outright executive intimidation is surely a higher democratic principle than exactly how and even whether an advisory referendum is enacted.
Another in the series of “MPs are stupid”. Looks a great target for the Lib Dems.
This is the issue I have. I don't really mind MPs being crooks. I practically expect them to be. For that matter I don't really mind so much if they're stupid, ditto. But crooked *and* stupid is a bit hard to take.
As with the expenses scandal, it's the triviality that galls. If you're going to be bent, make sure you get yourself a plutonium-powered helicopter or a personal MagLev line from your home to the House of Commons.
At least 10 years ago, Tory MP's were billing the taxpayers for their moats and helipads.
£700 is pathetic.
That is factually inaccurate (although it was poorly reported so you’re not to know)
Comments
https://twitter.com/timothy_stanley/status/1109070776207134722?s=20
Obviously there will be multiple voting to some extent - what checks are there to stop that ?
Culpability - A - High Culpability - Abuse of position of power or trust or responsibility
Harm - Category 5 - Less than £5000
Table 2 False Accounting
Sentencing range - A/Category 5 - Medium level community order – 36 weeks’ custody
Dial in remorse, early guilty plea and no previous, looks like a community order on the face of it.
Court must have seen it differently because 36 weeks minus 33% for the guilty plea falls within the magistrates' powers.
I think May WA + Common Market 2.0 PD is the better bet, and would probably clinch 326 (or whatever the exact winning margin is currently). Fingers crossed that is what we get as I have no appetite for another referendum, unless absolutely necessary.
"The wrong Conservatives have the levers of power"
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1109079781247582209
This moron should have voted for May's MV2.
Poor Rory being sent onto the airwaves to defend the government position without knowing how fast things are moving.
The point of putting MV3 isn't at all clear.
So not a major hurdle (but one that must not be overlooked)
Rory Stewart is valiantly defending the PM on R4 and seems to be pretending that an extension is conditional on MV3. If we approve the sodding 'deal' subject to a referendum, and take part in the EU elections, of course the EU will allow a delay.
Classy
in other news, Elvis is still dead.
"I demand that MY option is considered...."
Or at least, if not flawed, then deeply somnolent.
MPs are now changing their votes because of death threats.
Source: BBC R4.
Interesting take from Pesto. He thinks a No Deal exit on 12 April is the most likely outcome.
Source: BBC R4.
A vote on Europe under AV?
I think Eagles might self-combust.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1109067459187916805
That behaviour sends a signal and has an implication, certainly to potential voters where Europe is frankly much lower on their list of priorities, even in the midst of Brexit.
She can campaign for a full blown rejoin referendum in a couple of years when the dust has settled.
I hate to be a purist but I do think it is important that our MPs votes in Parliament are recorded. They are accountable to the public and the only way of making them accountable is allowing the public to assess their actions.
https://twitter.com/Sapere_vivere/status/1109017814537564160
I am perfectly content for a link to prove I am mistaken
https://twitter.com/jamesdotcuff/status/1109079185987915779
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/03/03/a-second-referendum-conducted-under-av-maybe-the-only-way-to-end-the-brexit-impasse/
***
Krishnan Gurning-Leftie • 13 minutes ago
it’s on...
Brexit motorway protest tonight on M42 J6 6pm onwards...
These traitors need showing...
Anyone else taking part tonight?
Harry Mudd
They should be careful about things like this.
We need the public fully onside.. Not pissing them off when they're trying to get home at the end of the week.
***
Anyone else heard about this cunning plan to garner public support by blocking the M42 on a Friday night?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
But point out the shenanigans of the Leave campaign...
That our representatives should operate in an environment as free as possible from such outright executive intimidation is surely a higher democratic principle than exactly how and even whether an advisory referendum is enacted.