politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Bercow’s ruling adds to the Brexit uncertainty
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/18/john-bercow-brexit-moment-speaker-rulingIanB2 said:Guardian: Certainly the prime minister’s strategy has depended on eliminating options, so that eventually MPs would conclude that the only feasible Brexit on the table was hers. For that to work, she needed to keep bluffing and keep raising the stakes. She didn’t realise that ultimately, in parliament, it’s the Speaker who runs the game. And now all bets are off.
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Those aren't the only ways it can go to the vote.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
There are at least 4 ways it can go to a vote.
1: Unilateral change of motion - EG ratify subject to Deal.
2: Multilateral change of agreement - EG EU gives legally binding changes, akin to MV2.
3: Parliament suspends standing orders - EG The votes to pass deal are secured so simply vote twice on it, first to suspend order, then to pass it.
4: Events happen to make Bercow reconsider - EG Salvini vetoing an extension [extremely unlikely]0 -
Of course that was the plan but she put off MV1.IanB2 said:
That strategy climaxed prematurely, as one might expect from the ERG. Had they hit her with it the day after the massive rejection of MV1, things might have turned out differently.Scrapheap_as_was said:
The letters to Brady trick turned out fantasticallyIanB2 said:My suspicion is that the ERG (thinks it) has some tricks up its sleeve to try and thwart an extension. I doubt they are right, but who knows?
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Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting0 -
It is very concerning that they did not seem to have a backup plan. Bercow as much as told them he would do this. Even thinking he would not actually do it, did they not even discuss what to do if he did?dixiedean said:Still no official word from government. Which can mean only one thing. Cabinet has not been permitted to even discuss this, entirely foreseeable, possibility.
The long rumoured wave of resignations must surely come to pass when it finally is allowed to.0 -
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting0 -
Every outcome just got simultaneously more likely and less likely, depending upon your predisposition to it.SeanT said:Er, what just happened?
Nobody knows. Place your bets accordingly.
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I think they are more likely to be like Thranduil...TheScreamingEagles said:So have the Irish overplayed their hand?
Are German carmakers set to play the role of Gandalf at first light on the fifth day at Helm’s Deep?0 -
Mortimer has been extremely quiet of late - we hear very little of The Golden Rule anymore. So, he is obviously attention seeking.Jonathan said:
“Destroys the Country”. Set the hyperbole to 11.Mortimer said:
I’m with Casino on this.IanB2 said:
If immediate no deal were the only alternative, I believe she would. No deal wrecks the country, her legacy, and her party. She cares about all three.Casino_Royale said:
You don’t agree because you’re a Remainer and assume she’ll think as you will.IanB2 said:
I don't agree. But in any event it would be Parliament's clear wish, and they have a few nuclear options to encourage her along, if need be.Casino_Royale said:
I think those presuming Theresa May would unilaterally revoke Brexit if No Deal were tomorrow are seriously misreading Theresa May.IanB2 said:
Revocation. Unlikely, but not impossible. If the ONLy alternative were to be immediate no deal, both possible and likely.Sean_F said:
If the EU were to refuse an extension (unlikely, but not impossible) how would Brexit be stopped, if the government did not agree to stop it?Mysticrose said:Mysticrose said:
Let's scotch this. There is no chance whatsoever that the HoC will permit No Deal. None. Zero. Nada.Brom said:
I would agree with you that May's deal and remain are dying but no deal is clearly looming large on the horizon. I think most salient commentators can sense it. A lot can happen in a day though...Mysticrose said:
But if helps the ERG keep their eye off the ball I'm happy for them to carry on thinking otherwise.
She won’t.
She’d request (formally) an emergency extension and if the EU failed to grant it she’d blame it on them.
She’ll never revoke.
Because Revoke actuslly destroys the country (at least the contract between subject and rulers), her party and her legacy...
To want no deal isn’t rational. But to rule it out at this late stage with this in mind is even less rational...
Surely, the most likely outcome is an extension - I don’t see how today’s faffing around really changes much.0 -
As some observers noted last week:
https://twitter.com/timothy_stanley/status/1107723884021862400?s=200 -
Why is this the crisis that it is?
The answer, May is going to have to do something different. And were not sure she is capable.0 -
Hyperbole.SeanT said:
It's not necessarily hyperbole. No one has ever held a national referendum, seen the biggest vote in British history for the winning side - only for that vote to be simply cancelled, and ignored. Revoked.Jonathan said:
“Destroys the Country”. Set the hyperbole to 11.Mortimer said:
I’m with Casino on this.IanB2 said:
If immediate no deal were the only alternative, I believe she would. No deal wrecks the country, her legacy, and her party. She cares about all three.Casino_Royale said:
You don’t agree because you’re a Remainer and assume she’ll think as you will.IanB2 said:
need be.Casino_Royale said:
I think those presuming Theresa May would unilaterally revoke Brexit if No Deal were tomorrow are seriously misreading Theresa May.IanB2 said:
Revocation. Unlikely, but not impossible. If the ONLy alternative were to be immediate no deal, both possible and likely.Sean_F said:
If the EU were to refuse an extension (unlikely, but not impossible) how would Brexit be stopped, if the government did not agree to stop it?Mysticrose said:Mysticrose said:
Let's scotch this. There is no chance whatsoever that the HoC will permit No Deal. None. Zero. Nada.Brom said:
I would agreean sense it. A lot can happen in a day though...Mysticrose said:
But if helps the ERG keep their eye off the ball I'm happy for them to carry on thinking otherwise.
She won’t.
She’d request (formally) an emergency extension and if the EU failed to grant it she’d blame it on them.
She’ll never revoke.
Because Revoke actuslly destroys the country (at least the contract between subject and rulers), her party and her legacy...
To want no deal isn’t rational. But to rule it out at this late stage with this in mind is even less rational...
It would be unprecedented in our democratic history. It would be, in a sense, the END of our democratic history. Who knows what that would do to us. Civil strife is not unthinkable. Elections would be boycotted. Etc etc. All pretty catastrophic if not quite nation-breaking.
A referendum is a miserable way to solve this, but it is surely, now, the least miserable choice, if TMay's Deal is really dead.0 -
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting0 -
Indeed and this renewed talk of no deal might focus EU minds.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting0 -
The Maybot does not do backup plans...kle4 said:
It is very concerning that they did not seem to have a backup plan. Bercow as much as told them he would do this. Even thinking he would not actually do it, did they not even discuss what to do if he did?dixiedean said:Still no official word from government. Which can mean only one thing. Cabinet has not been permitted to even discuss this, entirely foreseeable, possibility.
The long rumoured wave of resignations must surely come to pass when it finally is allowed to.
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Does it matter who is blamed?kle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
Ultimately the only question that surely matters is do they want no deal or not?0 -
I don't care who is blamed, but most people with power in all this do. And as you know I don't think they do want a deal. Not badly enough to give in now, and not when they can see how chaotic we are right now.Philip_Thompson said:
Does it matter who is blamed?kle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
Ultimately the only question that surely matters is do they want no deal or not?0 -
She's had the same plan for months if not years now. Nothing has changed.viewcode said:
The Maybot does not do backup plans...kle4 said:
It is very concerning that they did not seem to have a backup plan. Bercow as much as told them he would do this. Even thinking he would not actually do it, did they not even discuss what to do if he did?dixiedean said:Still no official word from government. Which can mean only one thing. Cabinet has not been permitted to even discuss this, entirely foreseeable, possibility.
The long rumoured wave of resignations must surely come to pass when it finally is allowed to.
Half wouldn't surprise me if she called a press conference to announce that nothing has changed, it is her deal, or no deal, or no Brexit and then simply tabled her motion for a vote tomorrow anyway regardless of what the Speaker has said today.0 -
And - as Bercow himself said in his statement - the government hasn't actually tabled its proposal yet, or had any word with him to tell him they were planning to. Essentially he is being helpful by indicating his possible ruling ahead of time, responding to rumours in the media. To be unhelpful would have been to wait until the government put down its motion and then rule it out of order!CarlottaVance said:As some observers noted last week:
https://twitter.com/timothy_stanley/status/1107723884021862400?s=200 -
Apparently not. Alternatives to Mays plan are not to be voted on or discussed if at all possible. That goes for Cabinet as well as Parliament.kle4 said:
It is very concerning that they did not seem to have a backup plan. Bercow as much as told them he would do this. Even thinking he would not actually do it, did they not even discuss what to do if he did?dixiedean said:Still no official word from government. Which can mean only one thing. Cabinet has not been permitted to even discuss this, entirely foreseeable, possibility.
The long rumoured wave of resignations must surely come to pass when it finally is allowed to.0 -
Maybe what is really happening is that we are learning what it is like to have a sovereign parliament again and both government and parliament are a bit out of practice for dealing with massive issues where they really are supreme and there is no other authority they can appeal to.0
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I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting0 -
The Withdrawl Agreement continues to be the only solution that actually exists now and can be implemented. All the other options are not solutions, merely possible routes to other solutions at a later date. All of those other routes have a considerable opposition.
For that reason, Mrs May’s deal remains the most likely outcome - even if the route to it looks complex in very uncertain times.0 -
SeanT said:
I always think back to France and there the people voted against the European Constitution. Sarkozy got power and enacted the Lisbon Treaty without consulting the people. in my opinion you can see the results today, it may have taken 5 years but the French did not forget.Jonathan said:
It's not necessarily hyperbole. No one has ever held a national referendum, seen the biggest vote in British history for the winning side - only for that vote to be simply cancelled, and ignored. Revoked.Mortimer said:
“Destroys the Country”. Set the hyperbole to 11.IanB2 said:
I’m with Casino on this.Casino_Royale said:
country, her legacy, and her party. She cares about all three.IanB2 said:
You don’t agree because you’re a Remainer and assume she’ll think as you will.Casino_Royale said:
need be.IanB2 said:
Iomorrow are seriously misreading Theresa May.Sean_F said:Mysticrose said:Mysticrose said:
Let's scotch this. There is no chance whatsoever that the HoC will permit No Deal. None. Zero. Nada.Brom said:
I would agreean sense it. A lot can happen in a day though...Mysticrose said:
But if helps the ERG keep their eye off the ball I'm happy for them to carry on thinking otherwise.
Revocation. Unlikely, but not impossible. If the ONLy alternative were to be immediate no deal, both possible and likely.
She won’t.
She’d request (formally) an emergency extension and if the EU failed to grant it she’d blame it on them.
She’ll never revoke.
Because Revoke actuslly destroys the country (at least the contract between subject and rulers), her party and her legacy...
To want no deal isn’t rational. But to rule it out at this late stage with this in mind is even less rational...
It would be unprecedented in our democratic history. It would be, in a sense, the END of our democratic history. Who knows what that would do to us. Civil strife is not unthinkable. Elections would be boycotted. Etc etc. All pretty catastrophic if not quite nation-breaking.
A referendum is a miserable way to solve this, but it is surely, now, the least miserable choice, if TMay's Deal is really dead.
Edit: Messed up blockquotes.0 -
That they allow that to happen makes them as culpable as her.dixiedean said:
Apparently not. Alternatives to Mays plan are not to be voted on or discussed if at all possible. That goes for Cabinet as well as Parliament.kle4 said:
It is very concerning that they did not seem to have a backup plan. Bercow as much as told them he would do this. Even thinking he would not actually do it, did they not even discuss what to do if he did?dixiedean said:Still no official word from government. Which can mean only one thing. Cabinet has not been permitted to even discuss this, entirely foreseeable, possibility.
The long rumoured wave of resignations must surely come to pass when it finally is allowed to.0 -
No.TheScreamingEagles said:So have the Irish overplayed their hand?
Are German carmakers set to play the role of Gandalf at first light on the fifth day at Helm’s Deep?
No.
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I admire your attempt to keep the faith there, but Bercow is not letting the deal back without significant changes, which the EU won't grant, and if this goes to a public vote the deal will lose because so few politicians support it. How exactly is it still a likely outcome?RobinWiggs said:The Withdrawl Agreement continues to be the only solution that actually exists now and can be implemented. All the other options are not solutions, merely possible routes to other solutions at a later date. All of those other routes have a considerable opposition.
For that reason, Mrs May’s deal remains the most likely outcome - even if the route to it looks complex in very uncertain times.0 -
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
It's not up to Bercow. If the votes are there to pass the deal then the votes are there to suspend the standing orders.kle4 said:
I admire your attempt to keep the faith there, but Bercow is not letting the deal back without significant changes, which the EU won't grant, and if this goes to a public vote the deal will lose because so few politicians support it. How exactly is it still a likely outcome?RobinWiggs said:The Withdrawl Agreement continues to be the only solution that actually exists now and can be implemented. All the other options are not solutions, merely possible routes to other solutions at a later date. All of those other routes have a considerable opposition.
For that reason, Mrs May’s deal remains the most likely outcome - even if the route to it looks complex in very uncertain times.
The only reason the votes aren't there to suspend the standing orders is because the votes aren't there to pass the deal anyway. So its moot.0 -
Because Bercow is not an insurmountable obstacle, if the alternatives are even less palatable. The alternatives will be very clear after EUCO.kle4 said:
I admire your attempt to keep the faith there, but Bercow is not letting the deal back without significant changes, which the EU won't grant, and if this goes to a public vote the deal will lose because so few politicians support it. How exactly is it still a likely outcome?RobinWiggs said:The Withdrawl Agreement continues to be the only solution that actually exists now and can be implemented. All the other options are not solutions, merely possible routes to other solutions at a later date. All of those other routes have a considerable opposition.
For that reason, Mrs May’s deal remains the most likely outcome - even if the route to it looks complex in very uncertain times.
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Maybe but I think it is equally true they don't want a completely independent UK doing its own thing economically on their north western flank. I think they will still want a deal.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting0 -
And they will say they offered us changes of a sort a few weeks ago in order to sort it out. I'm no fan of theirs, but this really is our mess and they cannot get us out of it.SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
Oddly enough I agree with this. I am sick unto death of Kate hoey blaming the EU for anything and everything. Sooner or later we will get a parliament that takes responsibility and does things, instead of perpetually "failing and blaming". But it is not this parliament...algarkirk said:Maybe what is really happening is that we are learning what it is like to have a sovereign parliament again and both government and parliament are a bit out of practice for dealing with massive issues where they really are supreme and there is no other authority they can appeal to.
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Yes they can. They can grant an extension. Limbo > pain now.kle4 said:
And they will say they offered us changes of a sort a few weeks ago in order to sort it out. I'm no fan of theirs, but this really is our mess and they cannot get us out of it.SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
The EU isn't going to turn down an extension request at the first time of asking (though there may be some discussion around conditions, of course), and it is fanciful to suggest that they would. If we repeatedly came back for further extensions without any point to them, it would be a different matter.0
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All the more reason it is not going to be the deal, as you say - it was still looking unlikely to pass and they're not going to get the votes to suspend. Why would people like Clarke who reluctantly backed the deal decide to do something like that have the joy of voting on it.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not up to Bercow. If the votes are there to pass the deal then the votes are there to suspend the standing orders.kle4 said:
I admire your attempt to keep the faith there, but Bercow is not letting the deal back without significant changes, which the EU won't grant, and if this goes to a public vote the deal will lose because so few politicians support it. How exactly is it still a likely outcome?RobinWiggs said:The Withdrawl Agreement continues to be the only solution that actually exists now and can be implemented. All the other options are not solutions, merely possible routes to other solutions at a later date. All of those other routes have a considerable opposition.
For that reason, Mrs May’s deal remains the most likely outcome - even if the route to it looks complex in very uncertain times.
The only reason the votes aren't there to suspend the standing orders is because the votes aren't there to pass the deal anyway. So its moot.0 -
Fair point. We will find out very soon...SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out. 0 -
9 months would be a weird length of extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
When it became clear the deal wasn't going to go through parliament, a second referendum became the least worst solution for May a while back, but that appears to be yet another in the lattice of red lines she drew herself that have entirely boxed her into a tiny corner.kle4 said:
I really assumed she would turn to a referendum solution months ago, but she has surprised me. Bercow was obviously impatient for that switch as well.IanB2 said:May was going to lose again, anyway; now at least she has someone to blame. We desperately need to move on from her futile strategy and the hope must be that the ruling turns minds toward something more sensible to do to force some sort of a decision.
On May and revocation, she was initially going to vote to stop No Deal on 29th March on her own motion, before it got amended to take No Deal off the table entirely. It's not evidence of anything concrete, but she is clearly not hellbent on no deal but wants to avoid. And she knows politically her position as PM is untenable in the long term, and the medium term, and even possibly the short term too. She might find it reasonably easy to play the martyr in that instance if she alone can unilaterally revoke.
But who knows - we are deep into WTF territory now.
0 -
Extension does not get us out of the mess. Getting out of it requires more than entering limbo.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes they can. They can grant an extension. Limbo > pain now.kle4 said:
And they will say they offered us changes of a sort a few weeks ago in order to sort it out. I'm no fan of theirs, but this really is our mess and they cannot get us out of it.SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
It does sadly. It leaves us in a different [and in my opinion worse] mess but it gets us out of this mess.kle4 said:
Extension does not get us out of the mess. Getting out of it requires more than entering limbo.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes they can. They can grant an extension. Limbo > pain now.kle4 said:
And they will say they offered us changes of a sort a few weeks ago in order to sort it out. I'm no fan of theirs, but this really is our mess and they cannot get us out of it.SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
0
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My point is, it will be easier for the EU to offer an extension than face a furious Ireland, bankrupt fishermen, angry BMW workers, etc. The EU loves to kick the can. Cf Greece and the euro.kle4 said:
And they will say they offered us changes of a sort a few weeks ago in order to sort it out. I'm no fan of theirs, but this really is our mess and they cannot get us out of it.SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercootes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
It seems like it has been picked solely to get a nice clean 2020 date.solarflare said:9 months would be a weird length of extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
0 -
Corbyn is not worried his is on Masterchef with his antipasto board.0
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The Tories we have known are over. They become the Brexit party or they purge the Brexiters and become a UK version of Christian Democrats.Fenman said:This could mean the end of the Tories. Which makes it all so worthwhile
0 -
Selling an extension to the Tory party let alone the whole country is problematic. 2 years seems like a heck of a long time - the past two years has gone on long enough bearing in mind the chronic dissonance within the UK body politic. 9 months might just be acceptable.solarflare said:9 months w months might just be acceptable.ould be a weird length of montha extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
When it became clear the deal wasn't going to go through parliament, a second referendum became the least worst solution for May a while back, but that appears to be yet another in the lattice of red lines she drew herself that have entirely boxed her into a tiny corner.kle4 said:
I really assumed she would turn to a referendum solution months ago, but she has surprised me. Bercow was obviously impatient for that switch as well.IanB2 said:May was going to lose again, anyway; now at least she has someone to blame. We desperately need to move on from her futile strategy and the hope must be that the ruling turns minds toward something more sensible to do to force some sort of a decision.
On May and revocation, she was initially going to vote to stop No Deal on 29th March on her own motion, before it got amended to take No Deal off the table entirely. It's not evidence of anything concrete, but she is clearly not hellbent on no deal but wants to avoid. And she knows politically her position as PM is untenable in the long term, and the medium term, and even possibly the short term too. She might find it reasonably easy to play the martyr in that instance if she alone can unilaterally revoke.
But who knows - we are deep into WTF territory now.0 -
Indeed. I should have gone further.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Theresa May is a disaster of a Prime Minister. She is utterly pig ignorant of the views and opinions of her colleagues never mind those of other people. She is arrogant, intransigent, rigid, incapable of actually contemplating any way otherthat her way. She is utterly stupid, believing her own hubris, insisting even now that her deal is good and right and will pass, believing that massive cuts to the police are disconnected from the effects of massive cuts to the police as described to her before she made the massive cuts.
She and the other cretinous morons in her cabinet - international laughing stocks like Failing who she cannot / will not sack - will go down in the history books as having presided over the most calamitous period of this country's history since world war two. She is Eden and Chamberlain rolled into one - but unlike either of those she still thinks she can go on.
0 -
Possibly they read PB and want @williamglenn to win his bet.kle4 said:
It seems like it has been picked solely to get a nice clean 2020 date.solarflare said:9 months would be a weird length of extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
0 -
As a result of the Bercow ruling the Kyle amendment, which would pass the Deal in return for a referendum on it, looks increasingly likely given the Commons has already voted for an extension0
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The DUP are perfectly capable of getting some obscure text and reassurances that will enable them to say yes to May's deal.kle4 said:So, would now be a good time to ask the DUP if they would have backed the deal? It'd be nice to know how close MV3 might have gotten.
Although now the question has been taken from them I would think they will quickly come out and say they weren't going to back the deal anyway - no point in suggesting they were bending when they won't even get the chance to bend. And the DUP are not fans of being called benders of course.
They are much less likely to publicly buy in if they think it isn't going to pass. Its simple politics, don't be associated with trying to dig out a mess if it isn't going to get a result.
0 -
Surely a major reason we're in this mess is because the EU does act as a whole, and will continue to do so. The UK's tactics from the start have been to try to play bits of the EU off against each other (the German carmakers will demand a deal etc) but it doesn't work that way!SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercow has helped her today and she can go to the EU and seek the extension. The EU will be in the spotlight as they will not want the blame for a no deal so I expect TM will return next week with MV3, open to amendments and votes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
I see no justification for anything other than very short or very long extensions. Start over, or one final push.Norm said:
Selling an extension to the Tory party let alone the whole country is problematic. 2 years seems like a heck of a long time - the past two years has gone on long enough bearing in mind the chronic dissonance within the UK body politic. 9 months might just be acceptable.solarflare said:9 months w months might just be acceptable.ould be a weird length of montha extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
When it became clear the deal wasn't going to go through parliament, a second referendum became the least worst solution for May a while back, but that appears to be yet another in the lattice of red lines she drew herself that have entirely boxed her into a tiny corner.kle4 said:
I really assumed she would turn to a referendum solution months ago, but she has surprised me. Bercow was obviously impatient for that switch as well.IanB2 said:May was going to lose again, anyway; now at least she has someone to blame. We desperately need to move on from her futile strategy and the hope must be that the ruling turns minds toward something more sensible to do to force some sort of a decision.
On May and revocation, she was initially going to vote to stop No Deal on 29th March on her own motion, before it got amended to take No Deal off the table entirely. It's not evidence of anything concrete, but she is clearly not hellbent on no deal but wants to avoid. And she knows politically her position as PM is untenable in the long term, and the medium term, and even possibly the short term too. She might find it reasonably easy to play the martyr in that instance if she alone can unilaterally revoke.
But who knows - we are deep into WTF territory now.
As for selling it to the Tories, that's a lost cause with the no deal party.
0 -
Irish politicians are on record as saying proposed tariffs in the event of a no deal exit would blow a notable section of their economy out of the water. They all know it.SeanT said:
My point is, it will be easier for the EU to offer an extension than face a furious Ireland, bankrupt fishermen, angry BMW workers, etc. The EU loves to kick the can. Cf Greece and the euro.kle4 said:
And they will say they offered us changes of a sort a few weeks ago in order to sort it out. I'm no fan of theirs, but this really is our mess and they cannot get us out of it.SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vote could still pass. If it becomes an integral part of MV3 - that's enough of a change for a vote to happen.CarlottaVance said:
Question is what happens now. May has insisted her deal must pass her deal will pass. Now it can only go to another vote if it is augmented with a referendum or an election. And she wants neither of those. But she has to do something. Perhaps her tiny robot brain will explode from her head and reveal she really is the Maybot
Bercootes will take place with the knowledge from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.0 -
Then they should have done it by now. They now probably dont get another chance. They don't seem to care what happens by acting like theres never any urgency. Well done them.Y0kel said:
The DUP are perfectly capable of getting some obscure text and reassurances that will enable them to say yes to May's deal.kle4 said:So, would now be a good time to ask the DUP if they would have backed the deal? It'd be nice to know how close MV3 might have gotten.
Although now the question has been taken from them I would think they will quickly come out and say they weren't going to back the deal anyway - no point in suggesting they were bending when they won't even get the chance to bend. And the DUP are not fans of being called benders of course.0 -
Salvini can't, he is neither Italian PM nor currently even leader of the largest Italian party, according to weekend reports 5* will not block extension and nor will PM Contekjohnw said:Don’t know if this is half true but “Italy to block brexit delay “ Salvini could block A50 extension.
https://youtu.be/YNlboRM5o6E0 -
I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.0
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I'm not advocating 9 months. There is a rumour that it is what the EU will be offering. Probably nonsense.kle4 said:
I see no justification for anything other than very short or very long extensions. Start over, or one final push.Norm said:
Selling an extension to the Tory party let alone the whole country is problematic. 2 years seems like a heck of a long time - the past two years has gone on long enough bearing in mind the chronic dissonance within the UK body politic. 9 months might just be acceptable.solarflare said:9 months w months might just be acceptable.ould be a weird length of montha extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
When it became clear the deal wasn't going to go through parliament, a second referendum became the least worst solution for May a while back, but that appears to be yet another in the lattice of red lines she drew herself that have entirely boxed her into a tiny corner.kle4 said:
I really assumed she would turn to a referendum solution months ago, but she has surprised me. Bercow was obviously impatient for that switch as well.IanB2 said:May was going to lose again, anyway; now at least she has someone to blame. We desperately need to move on from her futile strategy and the hope must be that the ruling turns minds toward something more sensible to do to force some sort of a decision.
On May and revocation, she was initially going to vote to stop No Deal on 29th March on her own motion, before it got amended to take No Deal off the table entirely. It's not evidence of anything concrete, but she is clearly not hellbent on no deal but wants to avoid. And she knows politically her position as PM is untenable in the long term, and the medium term, and even possibly the short term too. She might find it reasonably easy to play the martyr in that instance if she alone can unilaterally revoke.
But who knows - we are deep into WTF territory now.
As for selling it to the Tories, that's a lost cause with the no deal party.
Hoewever politically whether you as a non-Tory like it or not it will still be easier to sell than being in limbo for another couple of years
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No Deal versus Extension could be the breaking point of EU unity, I think (just as it is breaking the British political system). Some nations would hate it - Ireland and Poland (and several other E European countries with large populations in the UK) spring to mind.rpjs said:
Surely a major reason we're in this mess is because the EU does act as a whole, and will continue to do so. The UK's tactics from the start have been to try to play bits of the EU off against each other (the German carmakers will demand a deal etc) but it doesn't work that way!SeanT said:
You're seeing the EU as a whole, which is wrong.viewcode said:
I don't think it is. They are seven times our population but the damage to them will not be seven times as much. I have said before that when we leave they will be briefly sad, have a little ceremony, then get on with their lives. It's a big thing to us because we're ground zero but not to the rest of the world.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think they do and they have said so. No deal is a disaster for them as wellkle4 said:
Why do you think the EU care about being blamed for no deal? Any european public will blame us.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you spoil your argument with your last sentence.RochdalePioneers said:
People's vot MaybotCarlottaVance said:
Bercoe from the EU meeting
No Deal would be catastrophic for Ireland: possibly worse for us than them. Not good for Denmark or Holland either.
No Deal would be fairly calamitous for EU citizens in the UK, and Brits over there.
No Deal would be deeply painful for certain key industries: French farming, Europe-wide fishing. Germen - yes - carmakers.
There are dozens more examples.
So even though the EU in toto *could* shrug off the pain of No Deal fairly easily, there will be voices within the EU screaming at the politicians to sort something out.
If Brussels refuses an extension demanded by several members, then the EU itself will become destabilised.
How much easier to grant a long extension, with qualifications, that Britain will have to accept.
That's what I expect to happen, but then again this is Brexit....0 -
I think May's best chance now to secure a deal is perversely to have the EU reject an extension request. If I was May I would be rather Macchiavellian and given an unappealing request.
Dear Mr Tusk,
I am writing to you to request an extension to the UK's article 50 period, because Parliament has requested I do so. Parliament is unable to make up its mind on how to proceed so we need more time to continue these discussions. Please grant the UK an extension in order to provide time to re-open the Withdrawal Agreement and remove the backstop, or otherwise allow Parliament to continue to debate whether or not to ratify the Agreement.
At this time I do not foresee any other changes and I have no plans to change anything further other than to request more time.
With regards,
Theresa May,
10 Downing Street.0 -
No, the Tories survived the Corn Laws and they will survive this. Yes many free trading Peelites left the Tories and formed the Liberal Party with the Whigs and Radicals as I suspect a number of Tory Remainers will join Soubry and Allen and Wollaston in TIG, yes the Tories did not win a majority again after the Corn Laws were passed for about 30 years until Disraeli's 1874 win but they did not disappear and indeed were largest party at a number of elections during that period even if bar a couple of years under Lord Derby they rarely were able to form a governmentFenman said:This could mean the end of the Tories. Which makes it all so worthwhile
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A question to those that predict civil unrest if Brexit is revoked, read this from yesterday's Sunday Times and tell me do you think civil unrest is less likely if a no-deal crash out leads to interruption of drinking water supplies?
Concerns over access to drinking water surfaced in November when it emerged that Michael Gove had only backed Theresa May’s deal after he discovered that Britain would run out within days of a no-deal Brexit.
Chemicals used to purify water are imported to the UK from Europe on a just-in-time basis, meaning any delay at Dover could leave deliveries caught in weeks of border chaos. Liquefied chlorine, sodium silicofluoride, aluminium sulphate, fluorosilicic acid and calcium hydroxide cannot be stockpiled.
Thames Water, the UK’s biggest water company, said it was working with the government to ensure that supplies of drinking water would not be hit.
However, civil servants at the Cabinet Office, which is overseeing Brexit plans, fear that the measures will not be enough and are among those said to be stockpiling bottled water.
I bolded the really salient bit.0 -
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
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Not difficult to see how the remaining options dissipate so that we end up with no deal or No Brexit left.
May will revoke then resign. If she has to. Because when that's all that's left it's her career over and likely a Tory civil war. Throwing the country onto the bonfire does nothing to alleviate the end...0 -
0
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The political landscape may change quite dramatically in the coming weeks or it may not. The Conservatives have in excess of 5,000 council seats to defend in May and I find it hard to believe there won't be some losses.HYUFD said:No, the Tories survived the Corn Laws and they will survive this. Yes many free trading Peelites left the Tories and formed the Liberal Party with the Whigs and Radicals as I suspect a number of Tory Remainers will join Soubry and Allen and Wollaston in TIG, yes the Tories did not win a majority again after the Corn Laws were passed for about 30 years until Disraeli's 1874 win but they did not disappear and indeed were largest party at a number of elections during that period even if bar a couple of years under Lord Derby they rarely were able to form a government
The Conservative Party does as you say have a powerful history of survival and talent for re-invention but they were out of power for 13 years after 1997 and there's no guarantee a similar period out of Government might not happen in the future.
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This is a product of the reality that there is no majority in parliament for anything. Had TM achieved a majority, the reality would be different.algarkirk said:Maybe what is really happening is that we are learning what it is like to have a sovereign parliament again and both government and parliament are a bit out of practice for dealing with massive issues where they really are supreme and there is no other authority they can appeal to.
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The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.0 -
I think I might have written the best thriller of my career to date. THE ASSISTANT, by S K TremayneDavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
I mention that now because one of the reasons it is good (if it is any good) is because of Brexit. Every morning for the last year, when I've woken up and read/heard/watched the headline news, and realised it is nothing but Brexit plus Brexit with added Brexit, I have gone straight to work, just to tune out the boring chaos.
Writing has been the most welcome distraction.
It's had such an effect I was tempted to thank Brexit in the Acknowledgments.0 -
Now that parliament has something of existential importance to do huge numbers are watching it and taking note. Usually no one could care less what they do. Obviously they are not coming out of it well, but for many years now there has been more fame, power and money in being a policy wonk, a journalist, a broadcaster, a pundit or lots of other things that there has been in being a brilliant parliamentarian. So understandably we are a bit short of them; for the same reason that we are short of engineers and nurses but not short of fund managers for the rich. Add to that that all the bright Labour ones are on the back benches because they are not insane...……….viewcode said:
Oddly enough I agree with this. I am sick unto death of Kate hoey blaming the EU for anything and everything. Sooner or later we will get a parliament that takes responsibility and does things, instead of perpetually "failing and blaming". But it is not this parliament...algarkirk said:Maybe what is really happening is that we are learning what it is like to have a sovereign parliament again and both government and parliament are a bit out of practice for dealing with massive issues where they really are supreme and there is no other authority they can appeal to.
So an interesting question is: Do the MPs want to go back into their comfortable mediocrity from which they have ignominiously emerged or would they like to have a country to run?
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Incorporating the detail of an extension with the core deal would certainly be a new proposal. But of course we need the extension (or a longer one) if the deal falls.SeanT said:The EU to save MV3?
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/11077229594756136980 -
The sheer self-obsessed stupidity of the posturers has been incredible.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
They're like people who twist on 18, get a 2, then say twist again.0 -
It's the difference between people being unhappy because things didn't turn out as they wanted versus people being unhappy because they lose their job or their food, medicine and water.rpjs said:A question to those that predict civil unrest if Brexit is revoked, read this from yesterday's Sunday Times and tell me do you think civil unrest is less likely if a no-deal crash out leads to interruption of drinking water supplies?
Concerns over access to drinking water surfaced in November when it emerged that Michael Gove had only backed Theresa May’s deal after he discovered that Britain would run out within days of a no-deal Brexit.
Chemicals used to purify water are imported to the UK from Europe on a just-in-time basis, meaning any delay at Dover could leave deliveries caught in weeks of border chaos. Liquefied chlorine, sodium silicofluoride, aluminium sulphate, fluorosilicic acid and calcium hydroxide cannot be stockpiled.
Thames Water, the UK’s biggest water company, said it was working with the government to ensure that supplies of drinking water would not be hit.
However, civil servants at the Cabinet Office, which is overseeing Brexit plans, fear that the measures will not be enough and are among those said to be stockpiling bottled water.
I bolded the really salient bit.0 -
Giving it a working majority would help. It is not “fit for purpose” because it is beholden to the headbangers and mediaevalist-creationists.another_richard said:
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.
Had TM delivered a healthy majority in 2017, we wouldn’t be having these shenanigans. It would be equally if not more ridiculous had Labour formed a minority administration in 2017.
If ever there was an argument against PR and unstable government - this is it.
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Or after the Corn Laws were repealed more to the pointHYUFD said:
No, the Tories survived the Corn Laws and they will survive this. Yes many free trading Peelites left the Tories and formed the Liberal Party with the Whigs and Radicals as I suspect a number of Tory Remainers will join Soubry and Allen and Wollaston in TIG, yes the Tories did not win a majority again after the Corn Laws were passed for about 30 years until Disraeli's 1874 win but they did not disappear and indeed were largest party at a number of elections during that period even if bar a couple of years under Lord Derby they rarely were able to form a governmentFenman said:This could mean the end of the Tories. Which makes it all so worthwhile
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Well I am glad some good has come of this farce. We may have lost any last vestiges of faith in our political leaders, our theory of democracy has collapsed, the people are no longer sovereign and the rule of law has been trampled underfoot but you have got an excellent thriller out of it. Sounds like a decent trade off to me.SeanT said:
I think I might have written the best thriller of my career to date. THE ASSISTANT, by S K TremayneDavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
I mention that now because one of the reasons it is good (if it is any good) is because of Brexit. Every morning for the last year, when I've woken up and read/heard/watched the headline news, and realised it is nothing but Brexit plus Brexit with added Brexit, I have gone straight to work, just to tune out the boring chaos.
Writing has been the most welcome distraction.
It's had such an effect I was tempted to thank Brexit in the Acknowledgments.0 -
Only 11 days to go to B day.0
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That can be pretty easily bypassed - just add some bits and pieces to the political declaration. That side of it is already been worked on, so add something from the next stage. Doesn't even need to be particularly specific.MaxPB said:
How? The government can't bring MV3.
Who knows what Grieve/Bercow have up their sleeve next though.
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It can if there is a meaningful change and making it subject to a referendum would be such a meaningful change, Bercow knows this and will use it to try and force EUref2MaxPB said:
How? The government can't bring MV3.HYUFD said:As a result of the Bercow ruling the Kyle amendment, which would pass the Deal in return for a referendum on it, looks increasingly likely given the Commons has already voted for an extension
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I can't see May revoking unless it can be completely blamed on others.RochdalePioneers said:Not difficult to see how the remaining options dissipate so that we end up with no deal or No Brexit left.
May will revoke then resign. If she has to. Because when that's all that's left it's her career over and likely a Tory civil war. Throwing the country onto the bonfire does nothing to alleviate the end...
Revoke is likely to lead to PM Corbyn and Conservatives will think that more dangerous than No Deal.
Even if No Deal starts disastrously it might be alleviated but a PM Corbyn would be beyond their control.0 -
1. Remove May.another_richard said:
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.
2. Don't let Boris/Davis/Fox/Leadsom near anything important.
3.Don't let Grayling near anything at all.
4. ...ok, getting stuck now.0 -
Criminally insane as leaving with no deal would be, this is hyperbole. We have sufficient chemists and plants to cope with this. Mind you, devoting time, energy and creativity to coping with the crock of it that is Brexit is bad enough.rpjs said:A question to those that predict civil unrest if Brexit is revoked, read this from yesterday's Sunday Times and tell me do you think civil unrest is less likely if a no-deal crash out leads to interruption of drinking water supplies?
Concerns over access to drinking water surfaced in November when it emerged that Michael Gove had only backed Theresa May’s deal after he discovered that Britain would run out within days of a no-deal Brexit.
Chemicals used to purify water are imported to the UK from Europe on a just-in-time basis, meaning any delay at Dover could leave deliveries caught in weeks of border chaos. Liquefied chlorine, sodium silicofluoride, aluminium sulphate, fluorosilicic acid and calcium hydroxide cannot be stockpiled.
Thames Water, the UK’s biggest water company, said it was working with the government to ensure that supplies of drinking water would not be hit.
However, civil servants at the Cabinet Office, which is overseeing Brexit plans, fear that the measures will not be enough and are among those said to be stockpiling bottled water.
I bolded the really salient bit.0 -
Mr Glenn would be very happy with 1 Jan 2020, which is presumably what nine months is aiming for.Norm said:
I'm not advocating 9 months. There is a rumour that it is what the EU will be offering. Probably nonsense.kle4 said:
I see no justification for anything other than very short or very long extensions. Start over, or one final push.Norm said:
Selling an extension to the Tory party let alone the whole country is problematic. 2 years seems like a heck of a long time - the past two years has gone on long enough bearing in mind the chronic dissonance within the UK body politic. 9 months might just be acceptable.solarflare said:9 months w months might just be acceptable.ould be a weird length of montha extension, surely. What's that for, a Brexit baby? What would we do in 9 months? Surely it's either a month or two for technical reasons, or a couple of years for basically starting from scratch. Is 9 months even enough for organising another referendum? It seems neither here nor there.
When it became clear the deal wasn't going to go through parliament, a second referendum became the least worst solution for May a while back, but that appears to be yet another in the lattice of red lines she drew herself that have entirely boxed her into a tiny corner.kle4 said:
I really assumed she would turn to a referendum solution months ago, but she has surprised me. Bercow was obviously impatient for that switch as well.IanB2 said:May was going to lose again, anyway; now at least she has someone to blame. We desperately need to move on from her futile strategy and the hope must be that the ruling turns minds toward something more sensible to do to force some sort of a decision.
On May and revocation, she was initially going to vote to stop No Deal on 29th March on her own motion, before it got amended to take No Deal off the table entirely. It's not evidence of anything concrete, but she is clearly not hellbent on no deal but wants to avoid. And she knows politically her position as PM is untenable in the long term, and the medium term, and even possibly the short term too. She might find it reasonably easy to play the martyr in that instance if she alone can unilaterally revoke.
But who knows - we are deep into WTF territory now.
As for selling it to the Tories, that's a lost cause with the no deal party.
Hoewever politically whether you as a non-Tory like it or not it will still be easier to sell than being in limbo for another couple of years0 -
HYUFD said:
As a result of the Bercow ruling the Kyle amendment, which would pass the Deal in return for a referendum on it, looks increasingly likely given the Commons has already voted for an extension
I’d like to see a second referendum. It would be supremely entertaining and I reckon Leave would win by a bigger margin.HYUFD said:As a result of the Bercow ruling the Kyle amendment, which would pass the Deal in return for a referendum on it, looks increasingly likely given the Commons has already voted for an extension
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You would need a more than healthy majority given that many of the extra MPs would likely be headbangers and/or posturers one way or another.RobinWiggs said:
Giving it a working majority would help. It is not “fit for purpose” because it is beholden to the headbangers and mediaevalist-creationists.another_richard said:
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.
Had TM delivered a healthy majority in 2017, we wouldn’t be having these shenanigans. It would be equally if not more ridiculous had Labour formed a minority administration in 2017.
If ever there was an argument against PR and unstable government - this is it.0 -
Of all the outcomes the one that leads most probably to PM Corbyn is no deal. Not least because a big chunk of the Tory sensible wing has already said it would resign the party if no deal exit happens.another_richard said:
I can't see May revoking unless it can be completely blamed on others.RochdalePioneers said:Not difficult to see how the remaining options dissipate so that we end up with no deal or No Brexit left.
May will revoke then resign. If she has to. Because when that's all that's left it's her career over and likely a Tory civil war. Throwing the country onto the bonfire does nothing to alleviate the end...
Revoke is likely to lead to PM Corbyn and Conservatives will think that more dangerous than No Deal.
Even if No Deal starts disastrously it might be alleviated but a PM Corbyn would be beyond their control.0 -
Never mind 13 years the Tories were out of power for 21 out of 28 years from when Peel left office in 1846 after the Corn Laws were repealed until Disraeli won the 1874 election but they survived even if largely in opposition on a protectionist platformstodge said:
The political landscape may change quite dramatically in the coming weeks or it may not. The Conservatives have in excess of 5,000 council seats to defend in May and I find it hard to believe there won't be some losses.HYUFD said:No, the Tories survived the Corn Laws and they will survive this. Yes many free trading Peelites left the Tories and formed the Liberal Party with the Whigs and Radicals as I suspect a number of Tory Remainers will join Soubry and Allen and Wollaston in TIG, yes the Tories did not win a majority again after the Corn Laws were passed for about 30 years until Disraeli's 1874 win but they did not disappear and indeed were largest party at a number of elections during that period even if bar a couple of years under Lord Derby they rarely were able to form a government
The Conservative Party does as you say have a powerful history of survival and talent for re-invention but they were out of power for 13 years after 1997 and there's no guarantee a similar period out of Government might not happen in the future.0 -
No Deal leads to PM Corbyn.another_richard said:
I can't see May revoking unless it can be completely blamed on others.RochdalePioneers said:Not difficult to see how the remaining options dissipate so that we end up with no deal or No Brexit left.
May will revoke then resign. If she has to. Because when that's all that's left it's her career over and likely a Tory civil war. Throwing the country onto the bonfire does nothing to alleviate the end...
Revoke is likely to lead to PM Corbyn and Conservatives will think that more dangerous than No Deal.
Even if No Deal starts disastrously it might be alleviated but a PM Corbyn would be beyond their control.0 -
Given it would be Leave with the Deal or Remain that does not mean all Brexiteers would be happy even if Leave wonFenster said:HYUFD said:As a result of the Bercow ruling the Kyle amendment, which would pass the Deal in return for a referendum on it, looks increasingly likely given the Commons has already voted for an extension
I’d like to see a second referendum. It would be supremely entertaining and I reckon Leave would win by a bigger margin.HYUFD said:As a result of the Bercow ruling the Kyle amendment, which would pass the Deal in return for a referendum on it, looks increasingly likely given the Commons has already voted for an extension
0 -
If the Conservatives cannot resolve Brexit then they are toast. I am more disappointed in the Labour MPs staying quiet whilst democracy burns; seriously this has been through a National Referendum and you are playing Party Politics by sitting on the fence? Bercow's behaviour is unfortunately because he really does not care what people think or have any honour - nothing is going to change his ego or stupidity but it does set a dangerous precedent for democracy and for the future Speaker role which is likely to be changed going forward. Behaviour like this damages democracy for decades if not centuries. V sad,0
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At the risk of breaking my vow within 20 minutes (in fairness, well ahead of the average politician) my current list is:
1. May's useless deal with or without a short extension.
2. No deal Brexit (with as many mini deals as possible).
3.Revoke.
....
659. A long extension.
It really is the worst possible solution. No wonder it is gaining credence in the madhouse.0 -
Nonsense. It is our adversarial two-party political system, where the government never talks to the opposition and the opposition never backs the government, that has created this crisis in the first place. If we had PR with a culture of compromise and give and take, it would have been sorted way back.RobinWiggs said:
Giving it a working majority would help. It is not “fit for purpose” because it is beholden to the headbangers and mediaevalist-creationists.another_richard said:
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.
Had TM delivered a healthy majority in 2017, we wouldn’t be having these shenanigans. It would be equally if not more ridiculous had Labour formed a minority administration in 2017.
If ever there was an argument against PR and unstable government - this is it.0 -
None of that quite absolves people from their duty to run a country. Parliament is not a game, it is the sovereign and supreme problem solving, solution finding governing body of a nation.nielh said:
This is a product of the reality that there is no majority in parliament for anything. Had TM achieved a majority, the reality would be different.algarkirk said:Maybe what is really happening is that we are learning what it is like to have a sovereign parliament again and both government and parliament are a bit out of practice for dealing with massive issues where they really are supreme and there is no other authority they can appeal to.
0 -
How does that sort out the ERG nutters, the self-obsessed posturers and Grieve's mendacity gang ?DavidL said:
1. Remove May.another_richard said:
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.
2. Don't let Boris/Davis/Fox/Leadsom near anything important.
3.Don't let Grayling near anything at all.
4. ...ok, getting stuck now.
How do you get MPs who are willing to do proper preparation and show attention to detail rather than spouting crap on twatter ?0 -
Numerous Labour MPs are breaking their Manifesto promises ? Don't they think they will be punished for that by the Voters, by history as well as each morning when they look in the mirror to wonder where their dignity is ?0
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To be honest, I can see May doing something like that. MPs should've added a clause to last week's vote which would require May to put her letter requesting an extension to a vote in Parliament (with the opportunity to amend the wording of the letter), before sending it.Philip_Thompson said:I think May's best chance now to secure a deal is perversely to have the EU reject an extension request. If I was May I would be rather Macchiavellian and given an unappealing request.
Dear Mr Tusk,
I am writing to you to request an extension to the UK's article 50 period, because Parliament has requested I do so. Parliament is unable to make up its mind on how to proceed so we need more time to continue these discussions. Please grant the UK an extension in order to provide time to re-open the Withdrawal Agreement and remove the backstop, or otherwise allow Parliament to continue to debate whether or not to ratify the Agreement.
At this time I do not foresee any other changes and I have no plans to change anything further other than to request more time.
With regards,
Theresa May,
10 Downing Street.0 -
I was starting with the easy ones! As you said the party is no longer fit for purpose. The only thing worse is the opposition.another_richard said:
How does that sort out the ERG nutters, the self-obsessed posturers and Grieve's mendacity gang ?DavidL said:
1. Remove May.another_richard said:
The Conservative party is not fit for purpose.DavidL said:
I am much the same. There was some pathetic whining git on the radio whilst I was driving this afternoon complaining that he had voted against May's deal twice but was now minded to back it given the lack of options but that self important buffoon Bercow was going to stop it. I mean, how pathetic can we get? This moron had voted against the deal in principle, twice, on the assumption that there would be no consequences for his actions and now he wanted to snivel about it.kle4 said:I think I've finally reached Brexit burnout. I'm at a loss at how pathetic the situation has become and facing yet more of it is too much.
It is what you try to teach 4 year olds and most of them learn. Actions have consequences. Grow up! I really can't bear to listen to these people anymore.
Would any PB Conservative activists / members / supporters suggest how to make it fit for purpose.
2. Don't let Boris/Davis/Fox/Leadsom near anything important.
3.Don't let Grayling near anything at all.
4. ...ok, getting stuck now.
How do you get MPs who are willing to do proper preparation and show attention to detail rather than spouting crap on twatter ?0 -
A short extension of, let’s say, 50 years would be welcomed by most sane people trying to run a business.0
This discussion has been closed.