politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tom Watson plans a new LAB MPs grouping and there’s little Mil
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Even if the motion passes I don’t see how they enforce it as Government policy.HYUFD said:
The vast majority of those opposed come from the Governing party’s benches.0 -
Even if the motion passes I don’t see how they enforce it as Government policy.HYUFD said:
The vast majority of those opposed come from the Governing party’s benches.0 -
Sean_F said:
Probably not even there. I think people view large companies in much the same light as politicians.tottenhamWC said:
It is when they provide a lot of local jobs - Swindon, Sunderland, etc. That's where it connects.Sean_F said:
Big business is not popular with the voters, these days.tottenhamWC said:Wouldn't be at all surprised if business, especially big business, quickly comes out of the blocks behind the referendum plan.
An interesting potential unholy alliance with Corbyn. Puts the Tories under pressure there as well. Especially from a number of their own donors. Interesting.
At a minimum, it is an interesting straw in the wind for the Conservatives to be on the other side of the argument to business if that transpires.Sean_F said:
Probably not even there. I think people view large companies in much the same light as politicians.tottenhamWC said:
It is when they provide a lot of local jobs - Swindon, Sunderland, etc. That's where it connects.Sean_F said:
Big business is not popular with the voters, these days.tottenhamWC said:Wouldn't be at all surprised if business, especially big business, quickly comes out of the blocks behind the referendum plan.
An interesting potential unholy alliance with Corbyn. Puts the Tories under pressure there as well. Especially from a number of their own donors. Interesting.
Probably a short to medium term benefit for the TIG there, if they adopt a moderate, and still broadly business friendly, position.0 -
670,000Casino_Royale said:
I thought the quarter of a million who go marching for it were all that counts.Sean_F said:
A second referendum is not all that popular with the public.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
After all, they do contain all of the great and the good.
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Indeed it would. A largely risk-free hit for reopen negotiations.Sean_F said:
A double referendum would have been fine, had it been agreed in 2015, although it would have resulted in bigger win for Leave, on the first vote.SeanT said:
Don't the polls vary wildly depending on how you ask the question?tottenhamWC said:
If they see it as a plausible end point to the current ongoing shambles then it might be very soon.Sean_F said:
A second referendum is not all that popular with the public.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
i.e. if you ask the voters, Do you want a 2nd EU referendum, then they say NO, bigtime. However, if you ask them, Do you want a final say on The Deal? then they say YES.
Hence the phrase "people's vote", used very deliberately by those clamouring for a 2nd referendum.
FWIW I think there is a just-about-democratic case for a Final Vote on the Deal, even if it is messy and unhappy. But it should be done in two stages as suggested by some here. 1st vote on TMay's deal Yes or No. If No, then we have vote 2: Remain or No Deal Exit.
As it is, the referendum was sold as the final word.0 -
Well, well, well. What a turn up.0
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Oh I agree. But then I have long campaigned for Scottish Independence as well. As I have said on here before I find it logically incoherent to argue for British Independence from the EU on democracy and accountability terms but then to deny those are valid arguments for Scottish Independence.El_Capitano said:
As a footnote to this, if you follow this logic, the "overwhelming majority" does of course exclude the SNP: they voted against holding the referendum, and given its advisory status, there's no reason they should be held to implementing its result.Richard_Tyndall said:
MPs abide by the will of the people. There is a deal on the table. It may not be perfect but it is a deal that fulfils the instruction of the referendum. Alternatively leave without a deal. They have always been the two legitimate choices. What they cannot do is claim they agree with the referendum result (as the overwhelming majority of them did) but then refuse to enact either a deal or No Deal.eek said:
How do you get the previous vote enacted? I'm no closer to seeing a means of leaving now than I was 6 months ago...Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
I have absolutely no issue with those MPs who voted against the referendum and against the enacting of Article 50. They are at least being consistent in their beliefs.0 -
Isn't it fun watching Labour implode...0
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Perhaps she can set up 'The Autonomous Group' to collect up disaffected leave supporting MPs as the Taggers.SeanT said:0 -
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1 and 2 are the killer punch and the reason I have consistently said no referendum is possible. It would take months to organise. Even with an extension (which can't be guaranteed especially if Spain thinks through the implications for Gibraltar of this long overdue victory for the Chagos Islanders) we don't have that.algarkirk said:Pondering what the Jeremy Corbyn Referendum announcement might mean once the immediate headline has died.
1 We leave on 29 March by operation of law so there is no time for one. Obvious
2 Delay is not in JCs gift, nor even in UK gift, though it would probably happen in propitious circumstances. The opposition wanting a referendum isn't enough of a reason.
3 Jezza has been notably coy in what he means by 2nd referendum. If he was being straightforward he would be less so.
4 An actual 2nd referendum on remain/leave is, to say the least, both risky and divisive and there is no reason to think it would solve anything.
5 The remaining thing which makes sense is to back the WA, (but perhaps not the PD) at least by letting it through on Labour abstentions, and THEN but only after leaving have some sort of people's vote.
6 Remain can't be on the list because we would have left. Mandate delivered. Referendum period over. Rejoin then becomes a new perfectly proper and respect worthy position.
7 The WA leaves lots of Brexit possibilities open from Rejoin to Norway via Canada, and vitally gives the UK time to suck it and see.
Is it possible that Jezza's mystical utterances will prove to be about people's votes after leaving, not before? And might this crack his problem of needing to support leave in the north and remain in the south?0 -
I think the Government would need an alternative plan that is deliverable in that scenario though. Will they have one? Would need the ERG to come full circle, minimum.Casino_Royale said:
Even if the motion passes I don’t see how they enforce it as Government policy.HYUFD said:
The vast majority of those opposed come from the Governing party’s benches.0 -
It might be if we had a vaguely competent government.SquareRoot said:Isn't it fun watching Labour implode...
As it is, seeing the official opposition in this state is tragic.0 -
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:0 -
So; why now? Is it because otherwise mass defections are expected, or are the leadership panicking about their frefallibg poll ratings?0
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Not by Leave campaigners it wasn't.Casino_Royale said:
Indeed it would. A largely risk-free hit for reopen negotiations.Sean_F said:
A double referendum would have been fine, had it been agreed in 2015, although it would have resulted in bigger win for Leave, on the first vote.SeanT said:
Don't the polls vary wildly depending on how you ask the question?tottenhamWC said:
If they see it as a plausible end point to the current ongoing shambles then it might be very soon.Sean_F said:
A second referendum is not all that popular with the public.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
i.e. if you ask the voters, Do you want a 2nd EU referendum, then they say NO, bigtime. However, if you ask them, Do you want a final say on The Deal? then they say YES.
Hence the phrase "people's vote", used very deliberately by those clamouring for a 2nd referendum.
FWIW I think there is a just-about-democratic case for a Final Vote on the Deal, even if it is messy and unhappy. But it should be done in two stages as suggested by some here. 1st vote on TMay's deal Yes or No. If No, then we have vote 2: Remain or No Deal Exit.
As it is, the referendum was sold as the final word.0 -
We're nowhere near the bitter end yet, not even at the end of the bitter middle imo.SeanT said:Can someone who reads Hansard all day explain to my shrivelled brain when this Labour policy will be tested in the Commons? Will it be this week with Cooper wotsit, or the new Meaningful Vote in March?
We are 33 days from Brexit. Incredible it has come down to this, at the bitter end. It reminds me of a really really REALLY shit version of Flintoff's Ashes.0 -
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
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Both, surely.Mortimer said:So; why now? Is it because otherwise mass defections are expected, or are the leadership panicking about their frefallibg poll ratings?
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I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum0 -
Not really. Nobody ever seriously thought she would be leader. And I don't think the pseudo-Colonel would add much intellectual heft to the Tiggers.kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
Oh, sorry, you mean you think this shows Corbyn will campaign for Remain? Hardly. I'll take his word that he voted Remain, but he obviously doesn't care enough about Europe to bestir himself on its behalf. And even if he did, given how divisive he is that might guarantee a Leave win.0 -
Does this go for say Yorkshire and say Cornwall as well?Richard_Tyndall said:
Oh I agree. But then I have long campaigned for Scottish Independence as well. As I have said on here before I find it logically incoherent to argue for British Independence from the EU on democracy and accountability terms but then to deny those are valid arguments for Scottish Independence.El_Capitano said:
As a footnote to this, if you follow this logic, the "overwhelming majority" does of course exclude the SNP: they voted against holding the referendum, and given its advisory status, there's no reason they should be held to implementing its result.Richard_Tyndall said:
MPs abide by the will of the people. There is a deal on the table. It may not be perfect but it is a deal that fulfils the instruction of the referendum. Alternatively leave without a deal. They have always been the two legitimate choices. What they cannot do is claim they agree with the referendum result (as the overwhelming majority of them did) but then refuse to enact either a deal or No Deal.eek said:
How do you get the previous vote enacted? I'm no closer to seeing a means of leaving now than I was 6 months ago...Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
Not making a Brexit argument here but where do you draw the line, how small is small enough to meet the requirements to be democratic and accountable?
I understand the EU is a little different to the UK but would you say the UK isn't democratic and accountable in a way that smaller divisions would be, like say Yorkshire or Scotland, though they still contain millions of people so I can't see a massive difference in democratic terms.
They strike me as democratic either way, the people of Yorkshire are not disenfranchised IMO.
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Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum0 -
Not sure they have lost them. Once this is resolved, apart from a hard core, will people will still be fighting for Brexit rather than voting for the state of the NHS? The conservatives also wouldn't necessarily be the net beneficiary either. More likely to be UKIP 2.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
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It's big news if they are already saying they will campaign for remain before a referendum is voted on. I'd assumed, given how reluctant to move toward a referendum at all, that Labour would hem and haw a bit about doing that first.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum0 -
Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
It’s too early to say what this is, let alone what the implications of what it will mean. But it makes a change from May’s slow death march.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
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Hold on, weren't you in favour of hard brexit last night ?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
By most of them it was and, by the Government that delivered the referendum as its policy, it was.williamglenn said:
Not by Leave campaigners it wasn't.Casino_Royale said:
Indeed it would. A largely risk-free hit for reopen negotiations.Sean_F said:
A double referendum would have been fine, had it been agreed in 2015, although it would have resulted in bigger win for Leave, on the first vote.SeanT said:
Don't the polls vary wildly depending on how you ask the question?tottenhamWC said:
If they see it as a plausible end point to the current ongoing shambles then it might be very soon.Sean_F said:
A second referendum is not all that popular with the public.Richard_Tyndall said:
They can have their second vote after we enact the first. That is democracy.Recidivist said:I don't think the second referendum will happen.
But boy is this going to be handy ammunition for rejoiners in the post-Brexit debate. It was a Tory Brexit pushed in the face of opinion polls opposing Brexit. And a referendum refused despite being called for by every other opposition party, huge crowds of demonstrators and even in the face of splits in the Tory Party itself.
How undemocratic.
i.e. if you ask the voters, Do you want a 2nd EU referendum, then they say NO, bigtime. However, if you ask them, Do you want a final say on The Deal? then they say YES.
Hence the phrase "people's vote", used very deliberately by those clamouring for a 2nd referendum.
FWIW I think there is a just-about-democratic case for a Final Vote on the Deal, even if it is messy and unhappy. But it should be done in two stages as suggested by some here. 1st vote on TMay's deal Yes or No. If No, then we have vote 2: Remain or No Deal Exit.
As it is, the referendum was sold as the final word.0 -
I don't think Corbyn would be particularly energetic in a remain backing campaign. But that is hardly the point, the point was how much Remain would be the position and how soon they would switch to it.ydoethur said:
Not really. Nobody ever seriously thought she would be leader. And I don't think the pseudo-Colonel would add much intellectual heft to the Tiggers.kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
Oh, sorry, you mean you think this shows Corbyn will campaign for Remain? Hardly. I'll take his word that he voted Remain, but he obviously doesn't care enough about Europe to bestir himself on its behalf. And even if he did, given how divisive he is that might guarantee a Leave win.0 -
There's what I want and what will happen.Pulpstar said:
Hold on, weren't you in favour of hard brexit last night ?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
If its that straightforward, why was Thornberry wearing chain mail as she said itSeanT said:0 -
Do you want a wager on that?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
What percentage No Deal Brexit now TSE?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
As I said the other day, Jezza will finally swing behind a 2nd vote when it is too late to stop a Tory Brexit.
So I think we have just seen a load of smoke and mirrors that comes to nothing.0 -
By "campaigning to Remain" does that mean Jezza will spend six weeks on his allotment again?SeanT said:
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I don't know.Benpointer said:
What percentage No Deal Brexit now TSE?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum0 -
Just need Israel to be wiped off the map for your trifecta.TheJezziah said:Labour back another referendum and the move will stuff the tiggers...
Santa delivering my christmas presents a bit early this year.0 -
Agree with that. It reminds me of the bit in Game of Thrones (around season 5?) when it stopped being so damn confusing, however entertaining, and the final battle-lines could be just about glimpsed through the mist.Jonathan said:
It’s too early to say what this is, let alone what the implications of what it will mean. But it makes a change from May’s slow death march.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
Just a glimpse, mind you.0 -
What's the terms of your bet with William?SeanT said:
Do you want a wager on that?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.0 -
This is so exciting.0
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That's my reading, tooSouthamObserver said:0 -
It would get the Remain campaign out of a jam, as I noted above @BenpointerGIN1138 said:
By "campaigning to Remain" does that mean Jezza will spend six weeks on his allotment again?SeanT said:0 -
TSE is a troll/manipulator.Pulpstar said:
Hold on, weren't you in favour of hard brexit last night ?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.
I wouldn’t take too much stock of anything he says.0 -
They were never going to appeae May, beyond minor face-saving, which is still on.El_Capitano said:One wonders how the EU will respond to a second referendum’s new lease of life. They don’t need to appease May if there’s a chance they could keep us in the EU otherwise.
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PB is filled with people repeatedly saying Corbyn is a hard Brexiteer, he voted leave etc. despite people on the left who know Corbyn saying otherwise people like to believe whatever suits their political biases.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Even now you'll have people convinced that Keir tricked him or something.0 -
Why even do that? The more they dig in their heels the less May has to use as a fig leaf and more people run from no deal.edmundintokyo said:
They were never going to appeae May, beyond minor face-saving, which is still on.El_Capitano said:One wonders how the EU will respond to a second referendum’s new lease of life. They don’t need to appease May if there’s a chance they could keep us in the EU otherwise.
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Not sure it means much.dots said:
If its that straightforward, why was Thornberry wearing chain mail as she said itSeanT said:
If it came to that Corbyn would “campaign” for Remain like he did last time, saying that his Brexit deal would have been better but the Government screwed it up, and we can still Leave the EU one day in future.
Maybe he’ll give it just a 6 out of 10 this time for good measure.0 -
As with all people that doth protest too much the truth is usually the opposite of what they actually say.Casino_Royale said:
TSE is a troll/manipulator.Pulpstar said:
Hold on, weren't you in favour of hard brexit last night ?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.
I wouldn’t take too much stock of anything he says.
As anyone who has met him will know from his shirts, TSE's favourite Pizza is (Sans) Ham and Pineapple with extra pineapple.0 -
The TIGs have achieved more in a week than the LibDems have in two and a half years.0
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Don't be ridiculous. Nobody who has studied Starmer's legal career thinks he is capable of any sort of ingenious trickery!TheJezziah said:Even know you'll have people convinced that Keir tricked him or something.
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It's certainly the case that thirty years ago, most Conservative voters thought their interests and those of big business coincided, whereas now they don't.tottenhamWC said:Sean_F said:
Probably not even there. I think people view large companies in much the same light as politicians.tottenhamWC said:
It is when they provide a lot of local jobs - Swindon, Sunderland, etc. That's where it connects.Sean_F said:
Big business is not popular with the voters, these days.tottenhamWC said:Wouldn't be at all surprised if business, especially big business, quickly comes out of the blocks behind the referendum plan.
An interesting potential unholy alliance with Corbyn. Puts the Tories under pressure there as well. Especially from a number of their own donors. Interesting.
At a minimum, it is an interesting straw in the wind for the Conservatives to be on the other side of the argument to business if that transpires.Sean_F said:
Probably not even there. I think people view large companies in much the same light as politicians.tottenhamWC said:
It is when they provide a lot of local jobs - Swindon, Sunderland, etc. That's where it connects.Sean_F said:
Big business is not popular with the voters, these days.tottenhamWC said:Wouldn't be at all surprised if business, especially big business, quickly comes out of the blocks behind the referendum plan.
An interesting potential unholy alliance with Corbyn. Puts the Tories under pressure there as well. Especially from a number of their own donors. Interesting.
Probably a short to medium term benefit for the TIG there, if they adopt a moderate, and still broadly business friendly, position.0 -
Interesting.SouthamObserver said:0 -
Continually promoted out of harms way?ydoethur said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nobody who has studied Starmer's legal career thinks he is capable of any sort of ingenious trickery!TheJezziah said:Even know you'll have people convinced that Keir tricked him or something.
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Careful, or we're back to Corbyn/May and Brexit.eek said:
As with all people that doth protest too much the truth is usually the opposite of what they actually say.Casino_Royale said:
TSE is a troll/manipulator.Pulpstar said:
Hold on, weren't you in favour of hard brexit last night ?TheScreamingEagles said:Brexit delenda est is what Emily Thornberry effectively said.
Lads Brexit's over*, hurrah for the ERG.
It'll be extend Article 50 and then legislate for another referendum.
*I may have placed a semantic burden on over.
I wouldn’t take too much stock of anything he says.
As anyone who has met him will know from his shirts, TSE's favourite Pizza is (Sans) Ham and Pineapple with extra pineapple.0 -
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*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.0 -
Listening to the garbage spouted by Crispin Blunt on Sky just now if TM deal falls brexit has to be stopped.0
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Wonder what Brenda thinks about a losers vote?0
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It will. It's death began some time ago.Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to the garbage spouted by Crispin Blunt on Sky just now if TM deal falls brexit has to be stopped.
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Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?
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Yep. If not, the Tories - not Corbyn's Labour - quickly become the extremists.Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to the garbage spouted by Crispin Blunt on Sky just now if TM deal falls brexit has to be stopped.
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I think a sensible second referendum would have been to have a "where are we and what do we want" job in the aftermath of the original vote and before article 50. A sort of scoping out with different choices of closeness / red lines, a bit like how the Danes voted separately in a spread of opt-outs. Would have been useful to know if the public "meant" for us to leave the common market, freedom of movement etc.0
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Though that may be a moot point if none of them retain their seats.SouthamObserver said:The TIGs have achieved more in a week than the LibDems have in two and a half years.
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Absolutely hilarious from Gary Gibbon on Channel 4 . Corbyn reading out the move to a second vote as if he’s a hostage reading out a ransom note !0
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It depends exclusively if the only other option is a No Deal Brexit.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.0 -
Blair is at least intelligent, coherent and engages with his opponents. He's also duplicitous, deceitful and manipulative, but so is Corbyn.TheJezziah said:
Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?
Did he ever have an approval rating of -47? Genuine question (where's Justin when you need him)?0 -
Remain won't have to sideline Jezza - he'll do that himself.TheJezziah said:
Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?0 -
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I'm amazed everyone seems to think the losers vote will inevitably lead to Remain.
Be careful what you wish for chaps... 0 -
Given the avoidable messes he landed himself in over Warboys, assisted suicide, press freedom, etc. I wouldn't have described him as 'out of harm's way'...eek said:
Continually promoted out of harms way?ydoethur said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nobody who has studied Starmer's legal career thinks he is capable of any sort of ingenious trickery!TheJezziah said:Even know you'll have people convinced that Keir tricked him or something.
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Whose interests do now, apart from those who attend Davos?Sean_F said:
It's certainly the case that thirty years ago, most Conservative voters thought their interests and those of big business coincided, whereas now they don't.tottenhamWC said:Sean_F said:
Probably not even there. I think people view large companies in much the same light as politicians.tottenhamWC said:
It is when they provide a lot of local jobs - Swindon, Sunderland, etc. That's where it connects.Sean_F said:
Big business is not popular with the voters, these days.tottenhamWC said:Wouldn't be at all surprised if business, especially big business, quickly comes out of the blocks behind the referendum plan.
An interesting potential unholy alliance with Corbyn. Puts the Tories under pressure there as well. Especially from a number of their own donors. Interesting.
At a minimum, it is an interesting straw in the wind for the Conservatives to be on the other side of the argument to business if that transpires.Sean_F said:
Probably not even there. I think people view large companies in much the same light as politicians.tottenhamWC said:
It is when they provide a lot of local jobs - Swindon, Sunderland, etc. That's where it connects.Sean_F said:
Big business is not popular with the voters, these days.tottenhamWC said:Wouldn't be at all surprised if business, especially big business, quickly comes out of the blocks behind the referendum plan.
An interesting potential unholy alliance with Corbyn. Puts the Tories under pressure there as well. Especially from a number of their own donors. Interesting.
Probably a short to medium term benefit for the TIG there, if they adopt a moderate, and still broadly business friendly, position.0 -
Williamson seems to go out of his way to be as divisive as some on the right of the party who left. It is fine to be ideological, there isn't any need to act like a dick, which is exactly why I was happy some that left did so.eek said:0 -
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Yup, there's no majority for a PV, the potential majority is for *TMay's deal, subject to a PV* which is hardly anybody's first choice. I don't think it's clear whether Corbyn would go for that, and to be sure of passing it still needs support, or at least a lack of active opposition, from TMay.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.0 -
At that time he had nowhere left to go except a sideways move that took some time to engineer. Elections don't occur weekly you know....ydoethur said:
Given the avoidable messes he landed himself in over Warboys, assisted suicide, press freedom, etc. I wouldn't have described him as 'out of harm's way'...eek said:
Continually promoted out of harms way?ydoethur said:
Don't be ridiculous. Nobody who has studied Starmer's legal career thinks he is capable of any sort of ingenious trickery!TheJezziah said:Even know you'll have people convinced that Keir tricked him or something.
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And they’ve no one else to blame except themselves.Benpointer said:A little song for the dear old ERG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNt5FnMK2sM0 -
As a Labour supporter they just saved my vote but a second EU ref isn’t happening . The likely outcome now is the Maybot drones on about deal or another EU ref to the ERG who might finally accept they need to quit whilst they’re winning or take their chances with a second vote .
Mays deal passes with the help of Labour rebels and that’s that .0 -
My gut tells me this is big. That the odds of a referendum (if not Remain) just shot up significantly.
My head tells a PV does not have the numbers.
However, perhaps even now, May is sitting in a pool table at Sharm el Sheikh, laughing that now that Corbyn has made the first move she can FINALLY begin the climb down.0 -
That's literally what he just said he'll be supporting (the Peter Kyle amendment)...edmundintokyo said:
Yup, there's no majority for a PV, the potential majority is for *TMay's deal, subject to a PV* which is hardly anybody's first choice. I don't think it's clear whether Corbyn would go for that, and to be sure of passing it still needs support, or at least a lack of active opposition, from TMay.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.0 -
Worked for Henry VII. Nobody's first choice, everybody's second.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, there's no majority for a PV, the potential majority is for *TMay's deal, subject to a PV* which is hardly anybody's first choice.I don't think it's clear whether Corbyn would go for that, and to be sure of passing it still needs support, or at least a lack of active opposition, from TMay.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.
The difficulty with that scenario is timing. Given the complexities, would the EU give as a long enough extension for it? I'm pretty doubtful about it.0 -
I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.0
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Keep saying it Big G if it makes you feel better. But you are wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just lost vote leaving areas. Is it worth itJonathan said:Well, well, well. What a turn up.
You are wrong to take Labour leave votes for granted as not going to Labour in a general election.
You may not even be right that it was Labour votes that made key difference in those areas called leave constituency’s. 2017 GE hints at such. The reason is, in 2016, up and down the country, polling stations didn't get all the usual faces, but quite a lot of faces who don't go in there very often, if at all. The rationale was voting leave because remain belonged to the political establishment these voters think never listens to them and has hollowed out their communities with globalisation and austerity. Not a rationale that suggests they rush into arms of long standing conservative government.
That’s my reasoning why your statement is wrong. Where’s your reasoning supporting your statement.0 -
Mike's just informed me he's taking a holiday in September.
How long did the electoral commission say they needed to run a new referendum?0 -
TBH I think if he campaigns like last time the difference will be the media won't ignore it this time and concentrate on the Tory leadership contest over it.Benpointer said:
Remain won't have to sideline Jezza - he'll do that himself.TheJezziah said:
Because he is the most popular Labour politician (yougov) and the most positive figure associated with remain (from some podcast I listened to a while back) which I guess was based on a mix of liking the person and associating them with remain or leave.Benpointer said:
Not sure Remain2 would want Corbyn capaigning for us tbh.ydoethur said:
Vote and campaign are two different things. I voted Remain, I wouldn't have campaigned for it.Danny565 said:
I don't get how that's surprising?! Even when Corbyn was saying he didn't think there should be another referendum, he still said he would vote Remain should one come about:kle4 said:
Now that would be big news.SeanT said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/12/jeremy-corbyn-says-would-vote-remain-second-eu-referendum
Who else? Blair? Chuka?
I imagine you have different campaigns but if remain is to be selective about who can campaign for it then what politician doesn't put people off?
Edit: Hopefully anyway...0 -
Six months.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike's just informed me he's taking a holiday in September.
How long did the electoral commission say they needed to run a new referendum?
You're screwed.
But come October we all will be anyway.0 -
You think?Alistair said:I think this stops IndyRef2 happening.
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But that seems - to my great surprise - what Labour are promising.edmundintokyo said:
Yup, there's no majority for a PV, the potential majority is for *TMay's deal, subject to a PV* which is hardly anybody's first choice. I don't think it's clear whether Corbyn would go for that, and to be sure of passing it still needs support, or at least a lack of active opposition, from TMay.Gardenwalker said:*If* Labour come out for a Referendum, this will simply bring out the tribalism in the Tories, won’t it?
I still can’t see how the PV has the numbers in Parliament. The PVers need to throw the Norway Plus lot a bone.
Like SNP, Lib Dems, and TIG, they will support May’s Deal subject to a referendum - or rather, a referendum on May’s Deal which amounts to the same thing.0
