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  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    _Anazina_ said:

    RobD said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Agreed. It should be extremely difficult to revoke someone’s citizenship without their consent.

    Does that include revoking people's EU citizenship without their consent?
    Yes it would, when the EU becomes a country. Right now EU citizenship is a glorified way of packaging freedom of movement.
    I want to retain my freedom of movement. Why do you seek to stop it, restrict my rights? You don’t even live in the UK, I recall, but the US.
    There was a vote about that a few years ago, or have you forgotten?

    Have you answered my question?
    It was part and parcel of leaving.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179

    I seemed to remember the two remaining “Beatles” also had their citizenship revoked.

    Punishment for the frogs’ chorus?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    What someone deserves and what the law says might be two different things .

    Javid playing to the public gallery outside of the law would be unacceptable . Personally I could care less whether Begum rots in the camp however I don’t want Home Secretary’s setting a precedent which could be used against innocent citizens in the future for dubious reasons.

    My understanding is this is far from the first time it had been done in the past few years...it has just been all done a lot more quietly. This has been one of the British approaches, compared to the French who just sent in special forces to kill as many off a hit list as possible before they even got a chance to think about trying to come back.
    International law says you can’t make someone stateless so I’m not sure how this can be done . I admit I’m not an expert though . As long as it’s legal I have no problem with letting Begum rot in the camp.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    DeClare said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    ITV reports the IS bride is to be stripped of her British nationality

    Good!
    That kind of depends. As horrible as she no doubt is, and as lame as some of the excuses about whether we let her back in have been, removing citizenship is a major thing to do and I would hope there are very careful procedures and scrutiny of how it is done - whether right in this case or not, I would be wary of the power being too easy to do. I don't recall previous examples, but as others have noted being a dual citizen probably makes it a lot easier, since they are not made stateless.
    I don't think it depends. She chose to fight against her own country and has no regrets about it.
    The 'depends' was on the process being suitable or not, not the decision itself. You'd surely not want it to be simple or easy, so that people far less worthy might fall afoul of such powers? It's the same reason we insist in such a high barrier to conviction of even awful people, since find a bad person guilty on poor evidence and you can find a good person guilty on poor evidence. This decision is probably right, I just hope it is something that cannot be done on a whim.
    Anyone know what would have happened to a woman who ran away to Germany in 1938 because she admired Hitler.
    Married an SS man who was employed at say Treblinka came back to Britain with a baby after her husband had been captured in 1945.
    Said in an interview that she still thought that the Nazis were right and that their victims deserved it?
    (I know that any Briton who actually took part in the Holocaust would have probably been hanged but what about the wives of such people?)
    Well quite. She is a British citizen so should be tried (and punished, if convicted) here - the rest is utter reactionary tabloid crap. I’m saddened that so many on PB seem to think it right.
    Not just PB,the majority in the country if you go by comments and probably polls.
    Trial by the mob.

    To my point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    TGOHF said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Big G

    Erm, Remainers are already a bloody broad church!

    Indeed but it does not help to attract those who want to leave

    They are a dwindling band. Capture Remainers and go for Leave wobblers like SeanT and kle4 later would be my strategy.
    For TIG to succeed they have to see beyond brexit and appeal across the centre
    And ditch all the left wing nonsense.
    Basically, they have to resurrect Blairism.

    With Chuka as Blair. Hmmm........
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    What someone deserves and what the law says might be two different things .

    Javid playing to the public gallery outside of the law would be unacceptable . Personally I could care less whether Begum rots in the camp however I don’t want Home Secretary’s setting a precedent which could be used against innocent citizens in the future for dubious reasons.

    My understanding is this is far from the first time it had been done in the past few years...it has just been all done a lot more quietly. This has been one of the British approaches, compared to the French who just sent in special forces to kill as many off a hit list as possible before they even got a chance to think about trying to come back.
    International law says you can’t make someone stateless so I’m not sure how this can be done . I admit I’m not an expert though . As long as it’s legal I have no problem with letting Begum rot in the camp.
    Telegraph says she has dual citizenship - Bangladeshi.


  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?
    On ch 4 news , they said her mother had dual nationality bangladesh.They said they were not aware that the daughter had the same.
  • Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited February 2019
    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?
    It would be interesting to know the criteria they used. 100 have, 1000 were let back in, of which only a 1 in 10 charged with anything (despite been members of ISIS). In comparison the French and Russians have been far more draconian.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    This from sky news -

    IS bride Shamima Begum can have her UK citizenship revoked because she is dual British-Bangladeshi national, Sky sources say.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?

    No, I’m against removing her British nationality in response to public opinion.
  • This from sky news -

    IS bride Shamima Begum can have her UK citizenship revoked because she is dual British-Bangladeshi national, Sky sources say.

    What if Bangladesh revoke her citizenship first?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Is that established to be true? It’s true they are entirely innocent, of course.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    TGOHF said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Big G

    Erm, Remainers are already a bloody broad church!

    Indeed but it does not help to attract those who want to leave

    They are a dwindling band. Capture Remainers and go for Leave wobblers like SeanT and kle4 later would be my strategy.
    For TIG to succeed they have to see beyond brexit and appeal across the centre
    And ditch all the left wing nonsense.
    Basically, they have to resurrect Blairism.

    With Chuka as Blair. Hmmm........
    When do we start another illegal war?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    I would imagine he is a Dutch, Syrian, British and Bangladeshi citizen.
  • She had dual citizenship.

    And now she don't.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Isn't the Father dutch.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited February 2019
    GIN1138 said:

    Worth remembering that at one point during late 1981 and early 1982 the SDP/Liberals had a significant opinion poll lead including one Gallup poll that put them on 50% with Con and Lab on 23% each.

    We know what happened on the end...

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-1979-1983

    We gonna invade Argentina? Or get them to invade the Falklands again??
  • nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    What someone deserves and what the law says might be two different things .

    Javid playing to the public gallery outside of the law would be unacceptable . Personally I could care less whether Begum rots in the camp however I don’t want Home Secretary’s setting a precedent which could be used against innocent citizens in the future for dubious reasons.

    My understanding is this is far from the first time it had been done in the past few years...it has just been all done a lot more quietly. This has been one of the British approaches, compared to the French who just sent in special forces to kill as many off a hit list as possible before they even got a chance to think about trying to come back.
    International law says you can’t make someone stateless so I’m not sure how this can be done . I admit I’m not an expert though . As long as it’s legal I have no problem with letting Begum rot in the camp.
    I don’t think international law allows you to have hit lists of citizens and send special forces to kill them...but that is what at least two countries policy has been.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    DeClare said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    ITV reports the IS bride is to be stripped of her British nationality

    Good!
    That kind of depends. As horrible as she no doubt is, and as lame as some of the excuses about whether we let her back in have been, removing citizenship is a major thing to do and I would hope there are very careful procedures and scrutiny of how it is done - whether right in this case or not, I would be wary of the power being too easy to do. I don't recall previous examples, but as others have noted being a dual citizen probably makes it a lot easier, since they are not made stateless.
    I don't think it depends. She chose to fight against her own country and has no regrets about it.
    The 'depends' was on the process being suitable or not, not the decision itself. You'd surely not want it to be simple or easy, so that people far less worthy might fall afoul of such powers? It's the same reason we insist in such a high barrier to conviction of even awful people, since find a bad person guilty on poor evidence and you can find a good person guilty on poor evidence. This decision is probably right, I just hope it is something that cannot be done on a whim.
    Anyone know what would have happened to a woman who ran away to Germany in 1938 because she admired Hitler.
    Married an SS man who was employed at say Treblinka came back to Britain with a baby after her husband had been captured in 1945.
    Said in an interview that she still thought that the Nazis were right and that their victims deserved it?
    (I know that any Briton who actually took part in the Holocaust would have probably been hanged but what about the wives of such people?)
    Well quite. She is a British citizen so should be tried (and punished, if convicted) here - the rest is utter reactionary tabloid crap. I’m saddened that so many on PB seem to think it right.
    Not just PB,the majority in the country if you go by comments and probably polls.
    Trial by the mob.

    To my point.
    Exactly . It’s not for the public to force actions outside of the law . If Javid is acting within the law that’s fine but if he’s trying to ingratiate himself to the Tory party membership by acting outside of that then that is completely unacceptable.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    I would imagine he is a Dutch, Syrian, British and Bangladeshi citizen.
    Quarter ?
  • Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?
    It is a precedent if it is the first time it has been done to someone without dual nationality. And I suspect it is going to turn out to be a vast waste of public money when it is overturned by the Supreme Court

    The law says you cannot deprive someone of British nationality if they do not have an alternative. That is right and proper and it looks to me like Javid is flouting a law we signed up to for some short term cheap public popularity.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    IanB2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Worth remembering that at one point during late 1981 and early 1982 the SDP/Liberals had a significant opinion poll lead including one Gallup poll that put them on 50% with Con and Lab on 23% each.

    We know what happened on the end...

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-1979-1983

    We gonna invade Argentina?
    Suspect you’d only get a bounce from a defensive war. :p
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Absolutely. The whole policy of stripping dual citizens of their British citizenship is fundamentally flawed because it creates two classes of British citizen: those who are British in all circumstances and those who are British at Her Majesty's Government's Pleasure. Two of my kids are dual citizens, as is my wife, but they are just as British as me and our other kid. Yet three of us are vulnerable to the whims of the Home Secretary of the time, and two of us are not. And yet at the same time we talk about fostering integration and wondering why people don't fully identify with this country? Bear in mind this girl has been convicted of no crime. But the government has every interest in distracting the public, and we have an ambitious home secretary who needs to prove himself to the Conservative base. This is real Banana Republic stuff now.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    DeClare said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    ITV reports the IS bride is to be stripped of her British nationality

    Good!
    That kind of depends. As horrible as she no doubt is, and as lame as some of the excuses about whether we let her back in have been, removing citizenship is a major thing to do and I would hope there are very careful procedures and scrutiny of how it is done - whether right in this case or not, I would be wary of the power being too easy to do. I don't recall previous examples, but as others have noted being a dual citizen probably makes it a lot easier, since they are not made stateless.
    I don't think it depends. She chose to fight against her own country and has no regrets about it.
    The 'depends' was on the process being suitable or not, not the decision itself. You'd surely not want it to be simple or easy, so that people far less worthy might fall afoul of such powers? It's the same reason we insist in such a high barrier to conviction of even awful people, since find a bad person guilty on poor evidence and you can find a good person guilty on poor evidence. This decision is probably right, I just hope it is something that cannot be done on a whim.
    Anyone know what would have happened to a woman who ran away to Germany in 1938 because she admired Hitler.
    Married an SS man who was employed at say Treblinka came back to Britain with a baby after her husband had been captured in 1945.
    Said in an interview that she still thought that the Nazis were right and that their victims deserved it?
    (I know that any Briton who actually took part in the Holocaust would have probably been hanged but what about the wives of such people?)
    Well quite. She is a British citizen so should be tried (and punished, if convicted) here - the rest is utter reactionary tabloid crap. I’m saddened that so many on PB seem to think it right.
    Not just PB,the majority in the country if you go by comments and probably polls.
    Trial by the mob.

    To my point.
    Spot on.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?

    No, I’m against removing her British nationality in response to public opinion.
    How about we find an island off Scotland and stick them all there? Like the Australians or danish have done for different reasons?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,980

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure how you Baxter that, but it must be carnage for Labour?
    Baxter has a Labour Split option; putting TIG votes in there gives:
    Con 317
    Lab 208
    SNP 50
    LD 27
    TIG 26

    ... which does seem optimistic for the Tiggers to me.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    I think you will find it isn’t precedent. It has been done a load of times already.
    Yes and if she has Bangladeshi citizenship then we are able to exercise our right to revoke her citizenship without making her stateless.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?
    It is a precedent if it is the first time it has been done to someone without dual nationality. And I suspect it is going to turn out to be a vast waste of public money when it is overturned by the Supreme Court

    The law says you cannot deprive someone of British nationality if they do not have an alternative. That is right and proper and it looks to me like Javid is flouting a law we signed up to for some short term cheap public popularity.
    Wasn't she a dual UK/Bangladeshi citizen?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,122

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Isn't the Father dutch.
    Are we sure we know who the father is? Do we need to have a special episode of Jeremy Kyle?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Absolutely. The whole policy of stripping dual citizens of their British citizenship is fundamentally flawed because it creates two classes of British citizen: those who are British in all circumstances and those who are British at Her Majesty's Government's Pleasure. Two of my kids are dual citizens, as is my wife, but they are just as British as me and our other kid. Yet three of us are vulnerable to the whims of the Home Secretary of the time, and two of us are not. And yet at the same time we talk about fostering integration and wondering why people don't fully identify with this country? Bear in mind this girl has been convicted of no crime. But the government has every interest in distracting the public, and we have an ambitious home secretary who needs to prove himself to the Conservative base. This is real Banana Republic stuff now.
    If they renounced their second citizenship and declared absolute loyalty to HM there’d be no risk ;)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    This from sky news -

    IS bride Shamima Begum can have her UK citizenship revoked because she is dual British-Bangladeshi national, Sky sources say.

    What if Bangladesh revoke her citizenship first?
    We've already done it!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure how you Baxter that, but it must be carnage for Labour?
    Baxter has a Labour Split option; putting TIG votes in there gives:
    Con 317
    Lab 208
    SNP 50
    LD 27
    TIG 26

    ... which does seem optimistic for the Tiggers to me.
    TIG won't get an even split of the Labour vote across the country though - not least because they will have greater appeal in remainy areas.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited February 2019
    RobD said:

    Is that established to be true?

    Depends when the mother lost citizenship. If it was before birth the child doesn't have British citizenship, if after it does (regardless of the father or place of birth).
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    _Anazina_ said:

    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?

    No, I’m against removing her British nationality in response to public opinion.
    Well, yes, I agree. Unfortunately that logic leads to ministers never doing anything that's popular, which seems unfair. Given that we've done this before, it seems unfair to assume that Javid has acted based solely on public opinion.
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483
    Jonathan said:

    Whilst all this TIG stuff happens, the clock runs down a little further.

    914 Hours to go.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Dutch, in fact.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Absolutely. The whole policy of stripping dual citizens of their British citizenship is fundamentally flawed because it creates two classes of British citizen: those who are British in all circumstances and those who are British at Her Majesty's Government's Pleasure. Two of my kids are dual citizens, as is my wife, but they are just as British as me and our other kid. Yet three of us are vulnerable to the whims of the Home Secretary of the time, and two of us are not. And yet at the same time we talk about fostering integration and wondering why people don't fully identify with this country? Bear in mind this girl has been convicted of no crime. But the government has every interest in distracting the public, and we have an ambitious home secretary who needs to prove himself to the Conservative base. This is real Banana Republic stuff now.
    I am not saying you should, but this is just a question, that if you worry about it have you thought about rescinding one citizenship and keeping the other. Then there would be no question?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Andrew said:

    RobD said:

    Is that established to be true?

    Depends when the mother lost citizenship. If it was before the birth the child is British, and if after not.
    I remember a few days ago someone posted a link to a government website with a questionnaire to determine citizenship if born out of the UK. It isn’t as clear cut as you might expect.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,320

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure how you Baxter that, but it must be carnage for Labour?
    Baxter has a Labour Split option; putting TIG votes in there gives:
    Con 317
    Lab 208
    SNP 50
    LD 27
    TIG 26

    ... which does seem optimistic for the Tiggers to me.
    And utterly unchanged in terms of the Con/DUP vs assorted odds and sods balance.
    Remarkable!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure how you Baxter that, but it must be carnage for Labour?
    Baxter has a Labour Split option; putting TIG votes in there gives:
    Con 317
    Lab 208
    SNP 50
    LD 27
    TIG 26

    ... which does seem optimistic for the Tiggers to me.
    Flavible calculates a bit differently.

    https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1097925600000520192?s=19
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    TGOHF said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Big G

    Erm, Remainers are already a bloody broad church!

    Indeed but it does not help to attract those who want to leave

    They are a dwindling band. Capture Remainers and go for Leave wobblers like SeanT and kle4 later would be my strategy.
    For TIG to succeed they have to see beyond brexit and appeal across the centre
    And ditch all the left wing nonsense.
    Basically, they have to resurrect Blairism.

    With Chuka as Blair. Hmmm........
    Why did Chuka pull out of the Labour leadership ?
    Both decisions he has taken , do not seem like he is heading to the top.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    RobD said:


    I remember a few days ago someone posted a link to a government website with a questionnaire to determine citizenship if born out of the UK. It isn’t as clear cut as you might expect.

    The complications arise if the parent acquired citizenship the same way - but Begum herself was born in London so that's not a factor.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Big G

    Erm, Remainers are already a bloody broad church!

    Indeed but it does not help to attract those who want to leave

    They are a dwindling band. Capture Remainers and go for Leave wobblers like SeanT and kle4 later would be my strategy.
    For TIG to succeed they have to see beyond brexit and appeal across the centre
    In the short term while Brexit is the issue of the day, TIG isn't going to pull many leavers from either Tory or Labour. So for the time being, Remain is their obvious market. Thankfully it's a growing one.
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483
    MaxPB said:

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Dutch, in fact.
    Syrian I would have thought, unless they are using the Donald Trump argument that babies born in the US are not American citizens if their mother entered illegally.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Foxy said:

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure how you Baxter that, but it must be carnage for Labour?
    Baxter has a Labour Split option; putting TIG votes in there gives:
    Con 317
    Lab 208
    SNP 50
    LD 27
    TIG 26

    ... which does seem optimistic for the Tiggers to me.
    Flavible calculates a bit differently.

    https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1097925600000520192?s=19
    Those SW LibDem gains look optimistic.....
  • twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1097949102900477955

    I never think it is promising sign when somebody does that. Those that go, decide to go and announce they have gone, not well in having a think for the rest of the week then maybe...
  • I don’t see that much evidence that ‘Blairism’ is that much in demand amongst the public.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238
    glw said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is profoundly humiliating for the Lib Dems. No idea what the Tiggers, actually want, 90%+ would struggle to name more than 1 of them, no party, no organisation, no candidates, but hey, got to be better than those Liberal Democrats, eh?
    No baggage.....
    People are projecting their own views of what a modern centre-ground party should be like, and an awful lot of people think that their own barmy views are secretly mainstream. "At last a party that will ban cycling!"
    That is pretty much UKIP policy.

    http://www.camcycle.org.uk/elections/2013maycounty/eastchesterton/
  • DeClare said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    ITV reports the IS bride is to be stripped of her British nationality

    Good!
    That kind of depends. As horrible as she no doubt is, and as lame as some of the excuses about whether we let her back in have been, removing citizenship is a major thing to do and I would hope there are very careful procedures and scrutiny of how it is done - whether right in this case or not, I would be wary of the power being too easy to do. I don't recall previous examples, but as others have noted being a dual citizen probably makes it a lot easier, since they are not made stateless.
    I don't think it depends. She chose to fight against her own country and has no regrets about it.
    The 'depends' was on the process being suitable or not, not the decision itself. You'd surely not want it to be simple or easy, so that people far less worthy might fall afoul of such powers? It's the same reason we insist in such a high barrier to conviction of even awful people, since find a bad person guilty on poor evidence and you can find a good person guilty on poor evidence. This decision is probably right, I just hope it is something that cannot be done on a whim.
    Anyone know what would have happened to a woman who ran away to Germany in 1938 because she admired Hitler.
    Married an SS man who was employed at say Treblinka came back to Britain with a baby after her husband had been captured in 1945.
    Said in an interview that she still thought that the Nazis were right and that their victims deserved it?
    (I know that any Briton who actually took part in the Holocaust would have probably been hanged but what about the wives of such people?)
    I presume she'd be tried before anything happened. It appears that the UK may have regressed from 1945 (when the stakes were much higher).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,207
    Just checking with Chuka - when will cause Labour most damage? Saturday's papers - or Sunday's?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Isn't the Father dutch.
    Every post of yours is a #leavergrammar collectors’ item.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    That Sky poll is pure voodoo I guess?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?
    It is a precedent if it is the first time it has been done to someone without dual nationality. And I suspect it is going to turn out to be a vast waste of public money when it is overturned by the Supreme Court

    The law says you cannot deprive someone of British nationality if they do not have an alternative. That is right and proper and it looks to me like Javid is flouting a law we signed up to for some short term cheap public popularity.
    She does have an alternative - Bangladesh.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Big G

    Erm, Remainers are already a bloody broad church!

    Indeed but it does not help to attract those who want to leave

    They are a dwindling band. Capture Remainers and go for Leave wobblers like SeanT and kle4 later would be my strategy.
    For TIG to succeed they have to see beyond brexit and appeal across the centre
    Peeling away Remainers who feel lost is the only trick they've got. You think they're going to win any votes in an election by spouting platitudes about how they want to encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs or how what the NHS needs right now is a really good app?
    Their strategy should be to try and hoover up as many of the remainers as possible, and do a deal with the LibDems, Greens and all to avoid splitting the vote. Then let Labour and Tory fight over the leavers.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure how you Baxter that, but it must be carnage for Labour?
    Baxter has a Labour Split option; putting TIG votes in there gives:
    Con 317
    Lab 208
    SNP 50
    LD 27
    TIG 26

    ... which does seem optimistic for the Tiggers to me.
    How we laughed TIG 26
  • I don’t see that much evidence that ‘Blairism’ is that much in demand amongst the public.

    TIGs can only get better?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    Just checking with Chuka - when will cause Labour most damage? Saturday's papers - or Sunday's?
    If the Tories jump tomorrow, the next Labour lot are pencilled in for early next week
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Can't help thinking that you can't really say this kind of thing in public if you haven't already made up your mind to go.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    nico67 said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    DeClare said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    ITV reports the IS bride is to be stripped of her British nationality

    Good!
    That kind of depends. As horrible as she no doubt is, and as lame as some of the excuses about whether we let her back in have been, removing citizenship is a major thing to do and I would hope there are very careful procedures and scrutiny of how it is done - whether right in this case or not, I would be wary of the power being too easy to do. I don't recall previous examples, but as others have noted being a dual citizen probably makes it a lot easier, since they are not made stateless.
    I don't think it depends. She chose to fight against her own country and has no regrets about it.
    The 'depends' was on the process being suitable or not, not the decision itself. You'd surely not want it to be simple or easy, so that people far less worthy might fall afoul of such powers? It's the same reason we insist in such a high barrier to conviction of even awful people, since find a bad person guilty on poor evidence and you can find a good person guilty on poor evidence. This decision is probably right, I just hope it is something that cannot be done on a whim.
    Anyone know what would have happened to a woman who ran away to Germany in 1938 because she admired Hitler.
    Married an SS man who was employed at say Treblinka came back to Britain with a baby after her husband had been captured in 1945.
    Said in an interview that she still thought that the Nazis were right and that their victims deserved it?
    (I know that any Briton who actually took part in the Holocaust would have probably been hanged but what about the wives of such people?)
    Well quite. She is a British citizen so should be tried (and punished, if convicted) here - the rest is utter reactionary tabloid crap. I’m saddened that so many on PB seem to think it right.
    Not just PB,the majority in the country if you go by comments and probably polls.
    Trial by the mob.

    To my point.
    Exactly . It’s not for the public to force actions outside of the law . If Javid is acting within the law that’s fine but if he’s trying to ingratiate himself to the Tory party membership by acting outside of that then that is completely unacceptable.
    Even if it is within the law, it’s wrong. If she only had single citizenship (a la Ian Brady etc) we would have to handle the case here, quite rightly. Javid is a disgrace. Just playing to the gallery I’m afraid.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    I don’t see that much evidence that ‘Blairism’ is that much in demand amongst the public.

    Faced with the ERG and the Corbynistas, some calm rational and competent politics is very much in demand. Just so long as you don't attach Blair's name to it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    murali_s said:

    That Sky poll is pure voodoo I guess?

    Calling a poll voodoo is a very serious charge on here. People have been banned for less :o
  • I’d be more shocked if Ian Austin didn’t leave Labour at some point.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    Can't help thinking that you can't really say this kind of thing in public if you haven't already made up your mind to go.
    Austin Murray Hodge Ryan are certainties IMO
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?

    No, I’m against removing her British nationality in response to public opinion.
    How about we find an island off Scotland and stick them all there? Like the Australians or danish have done for different reasons?

    Why would we judge ourselves against the callous acts of other countries?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    I don’t see that much evidence that ‘Blairism’ is that much in demand amongst the public.

    TIGs can only get better?
    Very funny.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited February 2019
    IanB2 said:

    I don’t see that much evidence that ‘Blairism’ is that much in demand amongst the public.

    Faced with the ERG and the Corbynistas, some calm rational and competent politics is very much in demand. Just so long as you don't attach Blair's name to it.
    I don’t think it’s just Blair’s name that’s the problem. There quite a few beliefs among those who themselves centrists - e.g. support for academies and free schools, or foreign interventionism - that don’t seem to be that much popular among the public.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,238

    NEW THREAD

  • _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Endillion said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    Breaking...

    Shamima Begum, who joined the Islamic State group in Syria aged 15, is to lose her UK citizenship.

    ITV News said Ms Begum's mother had received a letter from the Home Office on Tuesday. The letter said Home Secretary Sajid Javid had ordered the move and it had already been processed.


    That is a shocking precedent. Javid has plummeted in my estimations. He is supposed to be running a fucking civilised country not a gammon tabloid circle jerk.
    Well, it's not a precedent. Last line of the BBC article says we've done this about a hundred times already. Based on your comment, I'm assuming you are against removing her UK nationality regardless of whether she retains another one?

    No, I’m against removing her British nationality in response to public opinion.
    How about we find an island off Scotland and stick them all there? Like the Australians or danish have done for different reasons?

    Why would we judge ourselves against the callous acts of other countries?
    Doesn’t seem callous to me. We could even turn it into a reality show...castaway jahadi edition...
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    _Anazina_ said:

    Telegraph report says that she has Bangladeshi citizenship as well.
    How are the free healthcare and child education services in Bangladesh?

    Her child is a completely innocent British citizen.

    Isn't the Father dutch.
    Every post of yours is a #leavergrammar collectors’ item.
    Not every post ;-)
  • NEW THREAD

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    nico67 said:

    International law says you can’t make someone stateless so I’m not sure how this can be done . I admit I’m not an expert though . As long as it’s legal I have no problem with letting Begum rot in the camp.

    Apparently Shameless Shamima is also a Bangladeshi citizen, which is what renders this move legal. Our interior ministry has revoked her passport before theirs, so they're stuck with the problem, the poor sods.

    Personally I would rather that they let here come back (providing that the authorities in Syria don't want to prosecute her,) but I understand perfectly well why the Government wants rid of her as a potentially very serious political headache. If she managed to get back to Britain then I strongly suspect that the courts would either give her a slap on the wrist or let her off entirely - based on the fact that she was a minor when she absconded, she almost certainly cannot be proven to have directly participated in any atrocities, and doubtless a number of very eminent human rights barristers would be fighting each other like rats in a sack for the cachet of representing such a notorious client and keeping her out of jail.

    All of this, of course, would be blamed by howling newspapers and a lot of the public on Government incompetence (and not without considerable justification either,) and nor would it be the end of matters. The drip drip drip of Shameless Shamima stories could well go on for years, and they aren't hard to imagine - living off benefits, hanging out with radical hate preachers, making inflammatory utterances about the UK and about terrorist murder victims, and quite possibly culminating in her self-detonation on some form of public transport.

    The real problem isn't the prospect of Shameless Shamima coming back per se, it's our hopelessly lax laws. I do not usually go in for Draconian measures, but I'm delighted to make an exception for Islamofascists: Parliament should've written into statute that membership of IS is a form of treason and those who declare allegiance to it should all be locked up in a dedicated maximum security prison, somewhere very remote and without access to any form of advanced communication that would allow them to proselytise and recruit more followers, for life. This would also have had the considerable benefit of allowing her baby to be put up for adoption and given the chance of a worthwhile life free from her poisonous influence.

    As it stands, am I wrong to suspect that, if she were able to return, an ordinary young woman would be at greater risk of incarceration if she had a history of petty shoplifting from the local Asda, or refused to cough up for her TV licence, than Shameless Shamima would for going on her extended Black Flag Tours all-inclusive package holiday to the Levant?

    Possibly. But not that far wrong.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    edited February 2019
    Owen Smith High
    Peter Kyle High
    Ian Murray High
    Ruth Smeeth Medium
    Alison McGovern Medium
    Ian Austin Medium
    Siobhain McDonagh Medium
    Joan Ryan Low
    Liz Kendall Low
    Stephen Kinnock Low
    Siobhain McDonagh Low
    Wes Streeting Low
    Neil Coyle Low
    Stephen Twigg Low
    Emma Reynolds Low
    Toby Perkins Low
    Ben Bradshaw Low

    According to Guido.

    I reckon Kyle Hodge Murray Austin Ryan are more or less certain to go

    I think Smith Kendall Bradshaw Perkins will stay.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is profoundly humiliating for the Lib Dems. No idea what the Tiggers, actually want, 90%+ would struggle to name more than 1 of them, no party, no organisation, no candidates, but hey, got to be better than those Liberal Democrats, eh?
    Not really. It was exactly the same for the Liberals in 1981/2. The excitement of something new gave the SDP the X-factor and they outpolled the Liberals through to the point at which the Alliance was struck and pollsters thereafter reported a combined rating. When the election came, the Liberals deep roots and ground campaigning expertise delivered a parliamentary party that was predominantly Liberal.

    The key figures to watch is how far the Tory and Labour ratings are driven down. Assuming TIG has the sense to put its money where its mouth is regarding political reform, and avoid running against the LinDems and Greens in the seats that matter.
  • Surely the thing that is holding a 2019 GE at 36% is that while on the one hand as Mike Smithson points out it is harder for Corbyn to get a GE, on the other the more that Labour continues on its downward spiral the more likely it is that a new Tory leader later this year would have the confidence that they could do better than May did in GE2017? Strike while Labour is on its knees.
This discussion has been closed.