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So devolution does not mean giving the people of Yorkshire the chance to choose their preferred system of local governance. Devolution imposed by Whitehall ain't devolution worth having.Verulamius said:
No hope. Blocked by Brokenshire earlier this week.OblitusSumMe said:
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/four-mayors-good-too-many-wasted-years-bad/
The Government's preferred mayoralty devolution is for City Region majors, not one encompassing the whole of Yorkshire.0 -
I would suggest yes. She remains PM and the government continues to operate until a newonevis formed. Alistair Darling represented the UK at the EU emergency summits on Greece even after the 2010 election as no new government had been formed.MarqueeMark said:
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0 -
A reasonable question (though I've not seen a suggestion that she was an active fighter). I'd like to think I'd react in a similar way, but I'm self-aware that might not be the case.OldKingCole said:
The curse of the trim. I said that, trying to respond to Mr A's point.Anorak said:
While I have some sympathy for the fact that she is pregnant, what view would we take of a 19 year old man who had gone to Syria at 15 and taken up arms?
Ms Cyclefree I'm grateful for your information upthread on her parents activity before he 'flight'.0 -
I don't know anyone who is proposing a border poll for Ulster. I can't see the DUP being happy about the people of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan taking part in a vote as to whether the six counties of Northern Ireland remain in the UK.stodge said:On topic, I won't die in a ditch for the Union unlike Theresa May. If the population of Ulster votes freely and fairly to secede and join the Irish Republic fine (ditto for Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, London or Surrey not that I expect any of them to join the Irish Republic (except perhaps Surrey)).
I suppose the thorny question (as it was before) is who gets to vote. Should the franchise be extended to Ulster-born people residing in the UK or even the Republic of Ireland and why stop there? I don't know.0 -
Tell that to the people of County Durham.SandyRentool said:
So devolution does not mean giving the people of Yorkshire the chance to choose their preferred system of local governance. Devolution imposed by Whitehall ain't devolution worth having.Verulamius said:
No hope. Blocked by Brokenshire earlier this week.OblitusSumMe said:
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/four-mayors-good-too-many-wasted-years-bad/
The Government's preferred mayoralty devolution is for City Region majors, not one encompassing the whole of Yorkshire.0 -
Assuming that Brexit happens and the UK negotiates a wide-ranging trade deal with the EU, perhaps with some arrangements for services, then the economic cost to Scotland of exiting the UK and joining the EU would be a lot lower than in 2014. Presumably both the EU and rUK would be OK with Scotland having a transition period while it negotiated EU membership, during which it maintained existing trading rules. We would retain a common travel area and presumably the border would have no infrastructure, as in Ireland. As a (sort of) Scot who would have voted against independence in the last referendum if I had still been a Scottish resident, there is no way I think we could stay in the UK after being dragged out of Europe against our will and retain any shred of self respect as a nation. Actually I would be surprised if either Scotland or N Ireland were in the UK 10 years after Brexit, although I would guess the Welsh would remain.0
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Anorak said:
Why? She was a teenager when she went. Now she is an adult. She has not said that she is sorry for what she has done. She has not renounced her views. She has had plenty of time to grow up and think about what she has done and what she is supporting. Or is she the only 19 year old in the world who should still expect to be treated like a 15 year old? There have been plenty of other girls going there who changed their mind and sought to escape and have regretted what they did.Cyclefree said:
She. Was. A. Child.Anorak said:Harris_Tweed said:Cyclefree said:Harris_Tweed said:
I'm not absolving her of blame for crimes she may have committed in Syria. There is no suggestion of an amnesty.
She does, however, remain a British citizen and possible victim in all of this, to one degree or another. Your approach to a heavily pregnant 19 year old seems to be "let her rot over there", which is frankly heartless and not a little disturbing. Especially after conceding she wasn't the one responsible for the decision to go in the first place.
She was responsible for her decision. Or, rather, I have not seen any evidence that she wasn't. It is others who are assuming that she must have been brainwashed and therefore not responsible.
She may be a victim. She may also be a perpetrator of crimes. People are rushing to assume the first and refusing to allow the possibility that the latter may be true.
If she ends up here we will have to deal with her. But I do not think that she ought to be any sort of priority. And I resent the way the whole topic is being presented as if we ought to be feeling sympathy for this poor child forced into running away to join an evil death cult, without bothering to find out the facts.
And the reality is that it would be very difficult to prosecute someone here for crimes committed in Syria because of the difficulty of getting evidence and presenting it in a British court. So a return here may effectively amount to an amnesty. If she has committed crimes in Syria or Iraq or wherever that is the proper forum, as it would be for any other British citizen committing crimes abroad. Or are we saying that British citizens committing crimes abroad should somehow not be subject to the laws applying in those countries. There is a legal defence of duress but it is not an easy one to use.
The child to be born warrants the greatest sympathy. The best thing for him/her is that they are brought up by another family. IMO.0 -
I was one of those people. At least our council told Westminster to do one.TheAncientMariner said:
Tell that to the people of County Durham.SandyRentool said:
So devolution does not mean giving the people of Yorkshire the chance to choose their preferred system of local governance. Devolution imposed by Whitehall ain't devolution worth having.Verulamius said:
No hope. Blocked by Brokenshire earlier this week.OblitusSumMe said:
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/four-mayors-good-too-many-wasted-years-bad/
The Government's preferred mayoralty devolution is for City Region majors, not one encompassing the whole of Yorkshire.
(Durham-Westminster, Westminster-Brussels. Same shit.)
Edit: Sorry - I now realise you may be referring to the imposition of the unitary DCC, rather than the NE regional mayor. In which case, Westminster won.0 -
OldKingCole said:Anorak said:
To be clear, the information was about the parents of one of the other girls she fled with. I think that girl has disappeared or been killed. But the parent has chosen to speak up about this girl. Given the lies he told last time he was interviewed, I'd have thought a period of silence from him would be appropriate.Cyclefree said:
The curse of the trim. I said that, trying to respond to Mr A's point.Anorak said:
She. Was. A. Child.Harris_Tweed said:
Possibly. But there are two differences: (1) the children were forced into the DRC. She was not forced into IS. (2) There is a strong possibility that it was her own family and friends who were responsible for her decision to join IS and that the level of desensitisation - or hatred for anyone deemed to be "an enemy of Islam" - needed for that decision had already happened long before she'd seen any mutilated bodies.Cyclefree said:Harris_Tweed said:
I have sympathy for real victims - the Yazidi women subjected to the most appalling torture and rape and brutality and death, the Christian communities assaulted by IS, the innocent Syrians and Iraqis and Kurds subjected to their brutality. Those who made a conscious decision to choose evil from the comfort of their freedoms in a civilised country I have very little sympathy for indeed.
I'm not absolving her of blame for crimes she may have committed in Syria. There is no suggestion of an amnesty.
She does, however, remain a British citizen and possible victim in all of this, to one degree or another. Your approach to a heavily pregnant 19 year old seems to be "let her rot over there", which is frankly heartless and not a little disturbing. Especially after conceding she wasn't the one responsible for the decision to go in the first place.
While I have some sympathy for the fact that she is pregnant, what view would we take of a 19 year old man who had gone to Syria at 15 and taken up arms?
Ms Cyclefree I'm grateful for your information upthread on her parents activity before he 'flight'.0 -
Ms Cyclefree, Mr Anorak.
I think we have to start a new thread, since the old one is getting hopelessly confused.
I think Mr A, that as she appears to have become pregnant three times while 'consorting' with ISIS 'soldiers', and appears to be happy about that, she can reasonably be supposed to have been 'giving comfort and aid' even if she hasn't actually picked up a rifle.
And Ms Cyclefree, I agree; the best prospect for the child seems to be adoption. Given what you have posted earlier I don't think it would be in its best interests to hand the poor little mite over to its British grandparents, although that could perhaps be an option!0 -
Well one would hope so. Simply could not bear it otherwise. Although I would have to since emigration is not an option for me - nowhere progressive has good weather.Richard_Tyndall said:I think that, as many others have said, there will be a period of what Geologists refer to as isostatic readjustment in political terms. The loss of left wing weight in Scotland will cause a rebalancing in England such that the overall balance will return to equilibrium.
But point of order - as far as I am aware you are quite literally the only person who has said (at least in my earshot) that after Brexit "there will be a period of what Geologists refer to as isostatic readjustment in political terms".
You should come to Hampstead. I'll show you around. :-)0 -
As per the discussion about the young girl and Syria, religion is attractive to the simple minded who value certainty above shades of grey. As per ISIS so per Brexit.MarqueeMark said:
But for them, it's an article of faith to ensure Brexit.....justin124 said:
Any Tory MP who supported a VONC would face deselection.MarqueeMark said:
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0 -
"Exellent!" says Theresa May, in her best Mr Burns voice.....CatMan said:0 -
Ah right, so kind of the same thing but not quite. Thanks.OblitusSumMe said:The border poll would be a Northern Ireland vote, but for unification to occur it would require a change to the Irish constitution, which would be a vote for the Republic of Ireland.
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I think there might just be a bit of litigation on that!Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest yes. She remains PM and the government continues to operate until a newonevis formed. Alistair Darling represented the UK at the EU emergency summits on Greece even after the 2010 election as no new government had been formed.MarqueeMark said:
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0 -
I'm sorry I thought you understood how politics works.justin124 said:
Very unlikely that Labour would agree to that given the clear lack of appetite for it now in Scotland.Such a move would drive pro-Union Labour voters into voting Tory.stodge said:Afternoon all
Back on topic, the question for me is whether agreement to a second independence referendum would be the price for SNP support for a minority Labour administration at Westminster?
Let me explain it nice and slowly for you - Sturgeon is of course NOT going to say anything like that BEFORE a GE and neither is Corbyn but if, after an inconclusive GE, the SNP are in a position to support a Labour minority, support for a second referendum might be the price of that support.
That doesn't mean Labour would support independence, merely they would allow the question to be asked again.
Remember what people say before an election and what they do after an election are two different things.
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Depressing, but quite possible. Amazing how few people care about it (as shown by deeds, not words).0
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What happens in Scotland only matters at Westminster if Scots were to elect more TORIES. It is unthinkable that SNP MP’s would support the TORIES. This is just as well as Labour are dead in Scotland for the foreseeable future0
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Can someone please give me an idea of how many more pointless votes on BREXIT there will be, before MP's come to their senses?0
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I wonder what the record number of defeats for a government is? Especially when you consider the recent australian example where apparently it hadn't happened in decades.rottenborough said:0 -
2017 looks like being a high mark for Tory MPs in Scotland I'd have thought.Iain said:What happens in Scotland only matters at Westminster if Scots were to elect more TORIES. It is unthinkable that SNP MP’s would support the TORIES. This is just as well as Labour are dead in Scotland for the foreseeable future
As many as it takes. A lot more if they agree an extension before deciding an outcome.SquareRoot said:Can someone please give me an idea of how many more pointless votes on BREXIT there will be, before MP's come to their senses?
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Wow, you're genuinely worried about the prospect, aren't you.MarqueeMark said:
And London's water costs £10 a litre.....CatMan said:What's really going to be interesting is when London splits off from England
And don't get me started on the cost of their electricity. Or the landfill costs for their rubbish. And as for the daily transit tolls, to commute back out of the M25 every night...
Anyway, an independent London on its own would be only marginally useful - if the whole of the South East of England opted to break away, that would be serious for places like Devon but you can always trade on the name and sell yourselves to Disney who could re-open the rest of the UK as the United Magic Kingdom.0 -
You can thank the FTPA for that. We'd have had an election (or a deal agreed) by this point otherwise.kle4 said:
I wonder what the record number of defeats for a government is? Especially when you consider the recent australian example where apparently it hadn't happened in decades.rottenborough said:0 -
A powerful point. Even those who are young can be over infantilised about their level of agency in choosing certain actions. A thorny issue to ponder over no doubt.Cyclefree said:
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.0 -
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Dunno. I gather Brian Cox is good with stupendously large numbers.SquareRoot said:Can someone please give me an idea of how many more pointless votes on BREXIT there will be, before MP's come to their senses?
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Always amusing to see these SNP motions get walloped ! Another one incoming methinks.0
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If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:0 -
Reluctantly I must agree with Sean T. We do not have first right of action. We must also consider the deterrent effect for people who do similar in future.SeanT said:
Bollocks. She should be tried by the Syrian or Iraqi authorities, as she has almost certainly committed serious crimes against the Syrian and/or Iraqi people. She has victims who have rights, too.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
If I went to Peru to join a death cult that was slaughtering and raping and enslaving Peruvians I would expect to endure Peruvian justice and punishment. I would not expect, instead, to be flown home to Britain to use the free health service.
I imagine there's a fair chance she might be executed: the Iraqi courts, in particular, are pretty keen on this.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis
If she is not executed, and she serves her jail time in Syria/Iraq, THEN we should consider her right of return to the UK.0 -
You misunderstood my point. AIUI she is not under arrest in Syria. She is in a refugee camp. ISeanT said:
Bollocks. She should be tried by the Syrian or Iraqi authorities, as she has almost certainly committed serious crimes against the Syrian and/or Iraqi people. She has victims who have rights, too.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
Q
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
It would be nice to think that the only reason why people do these horrible things is because they have been brainwashed. Ergo they cannot be responsible. So we must treat them as a victim without more inquiry. A more realistic and sceptical approach would realise that there are some (maybe the majority) who do it because they believe that this is their religious duty and that it makes sense to them, even if it does not to us. Believing something we find inexplicable and acting on that belief does not mean that a person should be excused the consequences of their actions.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
If I went to Peru to join a death cult that was slaughtering and raping and enslaving Peruvians I would expect to endure Peruvian justice and punishment. I would not expect, instead, to be flown home to Britain to use the free health service.
I imagine there's a fair chance she might be executed: the Iraqi courts, in particular, are pretty keen on this.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis
If she is not executed, and she serves her jail time in Syria/Iraq, THEN we should consider her right of return to the UK.0 -
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I think there are plenty shades of grey in Brexit. Or did you mean the 'certainty' of remaining in the EU?matt said:
As per the discussion about the young girl and Syria, religion is attractive to the simple minded who value certainty above shades of grey. As per ISIS so per Brexit.MarqueeMark said:
But for them, it's an article of faith to ensure Brexit.....justin124 said:
Any Tory MP who supported a VONC would face deselection.MarqueeMark said:
And if the ERG force a VONC - and vote out the Govt before that? So that the Brexit deadline occurs during the election camapaign - and there has been no meaningful vote by that point? That would be fun. Does May have the power to extend Article 50 without Parliamentary approval?Scott_P said:0 -
I rather think you miss the point here. It is not a matter of what Sturgeon wants - whether before or after a General Election. Much more relevant is the lack of evidence that the electorate in Scotland would welcome another extended period of constitutional wrangling - a feeling almost certainly strengthened by the Brexit pain and anguish. Those who pushed for such a move are unlikely to be rewarded at the ballot box.It is much more likely that Labour would ignore such SNP demands and defy them to bring the government down. I doubt that the SNP has forgotten the consequences of its behaviour in March 1979 which led to the loss of 9 of the 11 seats then held.stodge said:
I'm sorry I thought you understood how politics works.justin124 said:
Very unlikely that Labour would agree to that given the clear lack of appetite for it now in Scotland.Such a move would drive pro-Union Labour voters into voting Tory.stodge said:Afternoon all
Back on topic, the question for me is whether agreement to a second independence referendum would be the price for SNP support for a minority Labour administration at Westminster?
Let me explain it nice and slowly for you - Sturgeon is of course NOT going to say anything like that BEFORE a GE and neither is Corbyn but if, after an inconclusive GE, the SNP are in a position to support a Labour minority, support for a second referendum might be the price of that support.
That doesn't mean Labour would support independence, merely they would allow the question to be asked again.
Remember what people say before an election and what they do after an election are two different things.-1 -
This is going to end up with nothing being agreed at all, neither motion nor amendments?0
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And if she was to accidentally find herself on a plane back to Turkey then I wouldn't be heartbroken eitherCyclefree said:
If the Syrians are as inept at deporting foreign criminals as we are, it'll be years before we have to worry about that.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At the time the father of one of the three girls was paraded all over the TV and in front of a Parliamentary committee wailing about how he could not possibly understand how his little girl could do such a thing. It then turned out that the father had attended various marches and rallies organised by jihadists and extremist speakers. In short, the innocent daughter learnt her extremism from her father who had, at best, dissembled about his responsibility for his daughter's actions.
That bit was not as widely canvassed all over the TV of course.
And, frankly, given the risks that the IS ideology still poses - even as its Caliphate vanishes - our politicians should be considering the security of people here before worrying about a jihadist sitting in a Syrian camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
The Syrians should investigate whether she has committed any crimes on their territory. And if she has, prosecute.
It is difficult for us to prosecute unless we can get the evidence which would be challenging without the co-operation of the Syrian authorities.
If she is sent here, I would arrest her pending an investigation into whether she has committed any crimes (as well as for her own safety and ours - she is unrepentant about her allegiance to IS) and take the child into care so that it can be brought up by a decent family. If she is released, she should be made to go into the Prevent programme and kept under close observation until we can be confident that she is no longer a danger.
But I would not strive to bring her back here.0 -
:-Dkle4 said:
What?!stodge said:
Remember what people say before an election and what they do after an election are two different things.
*faints in surprise*
https://youtu.be/eD4TLmNyGYA0 -
You sound suprised.IanB2 said:This is going to end up with nothing being agreed at all, neither motion nor amendments?
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Yep. When I posted many months ago that you can't carry out a negotiation by parliamentary resolution and it was therefore a disaster that parliament had to agree the deal, I never expected to be shown to be as right as this.IanB2 said:This is going to end up with nothing being agreed at all, neither motion nor amendments?
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The motion notes discussions are ongoing. What the ????0
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OK, sorry, yes seen that now. Well I would imagine that will be the position.Cyclefree said:I put it down thread at 4:00 pm.
Essentially deal with her if she ends up here but make no effort to bring her back.
For me, her returning and shaking off the ideology and re-settling here would be the best outcome. But I don't think the UK government should feel the need to invest a great deal in the case.
Is the wife of a criminal also a criminal by dint of knowledge and approval of the criminal activities even if there is no active participation? I don't know. I suppose it has to be decided case by case.
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#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:0 -
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Labour decided not to proceed with devolution.justin124 said:
I rather think you miss the point here. It is not a matter of what Sturgeon wants - whether before or after a General Election. Much more relevant is the lack of evidence that the electorate in Scotland would welcome another extended period of constitutional wrangling - a feeling almost certainly strengthened by the Brexit pain and anguish. Those who pushed for such a move are unlikely to be rewarded at the ballot box.It is much more likely that Labour would ignore such SNP demands and defy them to bring the government down. I doubt that the SNP has forgotten the consequences of its behaviour in March 1979 which led to the loss of 9 of the 11 seats then held.stodge said:
I'm sorry I thought you understood how politics works.justin124 said:
Very unlikely that Labour would agree to that given the clear lack of appetite for it now in Scotland.Such a move would drive pro-Union Labour voters into voting Tory.stodge said:Afternoon all
Back on topic, the question for me is whether agreement to a second independence referendum would be the price for SNP support for a minority Labour administration at Westminster?
Let me explain it nice and slowly for you - Sturgeon is of course NOT going to say anything like that BEFORE a GE and neither is Corbyn but if, after an inconclusive GE, the SNP are in a position to support a Labour minority, support for a second referendum might be the price of that support.
That doesn't mean Labour would support independence, merely they would allow the question to be asked again.
Remember what people say before an election and what they do after an election are two different things.
The SNP pulled support and the consequences were that Labour fell and were kept out of office for two decades nearly.
When Labour finally returned to office the first thing virtually that they did was proceed with devolution.
SNP gained tremendously from devolution becoming ultimately Scotlands first party and nearly winning independence.
How did the SNP lose from 79?0 -
Why mourn the UK? It has existed a mere 300 years and in its present form for less than 100. A blink of an eye really.0
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🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:0 -
Worse than children. Petty and pathetic the lot of themScott_P said:0 -
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Uber Peoples Voters furious
Whats not to like0 -
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The public are far from happy with the lot of thembigjohnowls said:
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Whats not to like0 -
Oh, I agree with you about what SHOULD happen. However, if the Syrians choose not to/ are unable to, then leaving her and a new born to be looked after in a war zone. Well, why should they?SeanT said:
She SHOULD be arrested, and handed over to the nearest judicial authorities. Her victims have a right to see justice done, where she committed her crimes against them.dixiedean said:
You misunderstood my point. AIUI she is not under arrest in Syria. She is in a refugee camp. ISeanT said:
Bollocks. She should be tried by the Syrian or Iraqi authorities, as she has almost certainly committed serious crimes against the Syrian and/or Iraqi people. She has victims who have rights, too.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At th camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
If I went to Peru to join a death cult that was slaughtering and raping and enslaving Peruvians I would expect to endure Peruvian justice and punishment. I would not expect, instead, to be flown home to Britain to use the free health service.
I imagine there's a fair chance she might be executed: the Iraqi courts, in particular, are pretty keen on this.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis
If she is not executed, and she serves her jail time in Syria/Iraq, THEN we should consider her right of return to the UK.
That might have to be Iraq, if Syria is considered too lawless.
Incidentally, this issue shows the overwhelming gulf between elite opinion and the rest of us. Twitter is full of pundits and politicians of all stripes rushing to show their compassion, demanding that she be allowed "home".
But the polling is stark. And very much opposed. It's rare you get a consensus like this on ANYTHING.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1096081801410424834
It is like us exporting toxic waste to some third world country.0 -
It's not dead yet. The British identity is a much larger part of who many of us are than the EU will ever be. Cutting the UK into pieces would be much rougher than Brexit.houndtang said:Why mourn the UK? It has existed a mere 300 years and in its present form for less than 100. A blink of an eye really.
0 -
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Only up to 40?Scott_P said:
I'm surprised given 172 voted No Confidence in Corbyn and how Labour is supposed dominated by Remain MPs how few are prepared to rebel on this.0 -
So are we due another podium tonight?0
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Government loses 258-303.0
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May isn’t even there. Christ.0
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No its us not reimporting toxic waste thay has ended up in some third world country.dixiedean said:
Oh, I agree with you about what SHOULD happen. However, if the Syrians choose not to/ are unable to, then leaving her and a new born to be looked after in a war zone. Well, why should they?SeanT said:
She SHOULD be arrested, and handed over to the nearest judicial authorities. Her victims have a right to see justice done, where she committed her crimes against them.dixiedean said:
You misunderstood my point. AIUI she is not under arrest in Syria. She is in a refugee camp. ISeanT said:
Bollocks. She should be tried by the Syrian or Iraqi authorities, as she has almost certainly committed serious crimes against the Syrian and/or Iraqi people. She has victims who have rights, too.dixiedean said:
A passionate and well argued post as ever, with which I have much sympathy.Cyclefree said:Incidentally, re the discussion on the IS girl (fpt), there are a lot of people assuming that she was brainwashed. Maybe. But it is just as likely that she chose to do what she did and has not been brainwashed at all.
At th camp.
However. What if the Syrians do, as they should, exactly what we would expect our own government to do in a similar situation? That is, put her on a plane to her own country?
She was radicalised here.
If I went to Peru to join a death cult that was slaughtering and raping and enslaving Peruvians I would expect to endure Peruvian justice and punishment. I would not expect, instead, to be flown home to Britain to use the free health service.
I imagine there's a fair chance she might be executed: the Iraqi courts, in particular, are pretty keen on this.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis
If she is not executed, and she serves her jail time in Syria/Iraq, THEN we should consider her right of return to the UK.
That might have to be Iraq, if Syria is considered too lawless.
Incidentally, this issue shows the overwhelming gulf between elite opinion and the rest of us. Twitter is full of pundits and politicians of all stripes rushing to show their compassion, demanding that she be allowed "home".
But the polling is stark. And very much opposed. It's rare you get a consensus like this on ANYTHING.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1096081801410424834
It is like us exporting toxic waste to some third world country.0 -
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May can't even be arsed to turn up.0
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tick tock no deal brexit gets closer!0
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It's still an important part of a lot of people's identity. It's not absurd, for instance, for people to mourn us not being in the EU anymore and it's been around even less time.houndtang said:Why mourn the UK? It has existed a mere 300 years and in its present form for less than 100. A blink of an eye really.
0 -
Absolutely. But in the event that the Syrians do not do this (and it is not uncommon in times of civil war to focus on the most egregious crimes only) she should also face British justice.SeanT said:
She SHOULD be arrested, and handed over to the nearest judicial authorities. Her victims have a right to see justice done, where she committed her crimes against them.
It is a very dangerous precedent to set that someone who has done something very unpopular and probably illegal should be stripped of their citizenship and right to a trial. And her child is blameless.0 -
Nothing has happened.SeanT said:
Why? What's happened?bigjohnowls said:
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Uber Peoples Voters furious
Whats not to like
Seriously. I've given up following Brexit, it's just so boring.
Nothing has changed.0 -
On the topic of the ISIS woman and whether she should be brought back I mistakenly posted this on the last thread an hour after this one opened.
Joining a murderous death cult is more like other forms of murder than drug/prostitution victims.Harris_Tweed said:
I'm not finding her a particularly sympathetic character, either.Peter_the_Punter said:
I heard the interview and was struck by her immaturity. She's also a racist, which is not surprising since she's been living in a racist cult for some time. She also seems to lack compassion for anybody but herself, but I guess that kind of follows.
However.. if it's the case she was groomed and brainwashed when she was 14, it seems to me the law is likely to (or maybe should) cut her some slack.
The response to her case feels markedly different to those of numerous 14 year old *white* girls groomed and trafficked by gangs in this country. Maybe drugs and 'prostitution' (rape) are of lesser concern in the outrage chart than terrorist beheadings. I sort of get that.
But the dynamic is similar - persuasive men with a superficially-attractive ideology/free iphone, preying on vulnerable girls to join their cult and sleep with them/ferry drugs/make some money being raped by other men.
The response to her case is little different to the response to the 10 year olds who murdered Bulger.0 -
For all the guff about parliament taking back control, and for all that the government has indeed cocked things up royally, there are things parliament is even less well equipped to do than the government. This is a total shambles, it's pathetic, it gets us nowhere, and yet they will subject us all to it for ages yet.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yep. When I posted many months ago that you can't carry out a negotiation by parliamentary resolution and it was therefore a disaster that parliament had to agree the deal, I never expected to be shown to be as right as this.IanB2 said:This is going to end up with nothing being agreed at all, neither motion nor amendments?
0 -
Mr. kle4, it seems Parliament has wrested from Theresa May the right to not make a decision.0
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Sitting targetPhilip_Thompson said:
Nothing has happened.SeanT said:
Why? What's happened?bigjohnowls said:
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Uber Peoples Voters furious
Whats not to like
Seriously. I've given up following Brexit, it's just so boring.
Nothing has changed.
Sitting waiting
Anticipating
Nothing
Nothing
Life
Is full of surprises
It advertises
Nothing
Nothing
What am I trying to do
What am I trying to say
I'm not trying to tell you anything
You didn't know
When you woke up today
Sitting target
Sitting praying
God is saying
Nothing
Nothing
Always
Knows the prospects
Learn to expect
Nothing
Nothing
What am I trying to do
What am I trying to say
I'm not trying to tell you anything
You didn't know
When you woke up today
Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing
Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing
Nothing oh no, nothing oh no
Nothing oh no, nothing oh no
Nothing oh no, nothing oh no
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR2E4Is_6oE0 -
I blame Twitter.Scott_P said:0 -
Sounds about right. I've lost track of all these votes, but I don't imagine there are many people outside of those who do politics or political media who either know or care about any of it, regardless.Philip_Thompson said:
Nothing has happened.SeanT said:
Why? What's happened?bigjohnowls said:
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Uber Peoples Voters furious
Whats not to like
Seriously. I've given up following Brexit, it's just so boring.
Nothing has changed.
The Commons could hold a vote fest every day from now until March 29th, and it probably wouldn't change anything. The only possible votes of any significance that could happen would be to revoke A50, to accept the Withdrawal Agreement, or to VoNC the Government - and none of those prospects seems any closer than it was a month or a year ago. I still think that Brexit will end with either Deal or No Deal, and if it's the former it'll be the result of last-minute panic when MPs finally accept that those are the only two options possible.
On topic, the UK probably is finished in any event. Given that the way devolution has been approached has cast the Union as impermanent, dissolution can only be a matter of time. FWIW I think England and Wales will be joined at the hip until after we're all dead and buried, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Scotland and Northern Ireland both upped and left in the next few years.0 -
I hope you're right Black Rook. Even better if Wales goes it's own way.0
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Rcs1000?Pulpstar said:
I hope you've subscribed to every 9 year old's favourite Youtuber ^_~FrancisUrquhart said:
This will also not just affect EU companies / citizens. It will also screw loads of content creators from around the world who use the big tech platforms to publish their work. When rules like this come in YouTube etc will take a "safety first" approach and so loads of people will find demonetisation of their work.glw said:
The only companies that will be able to comply with such rules are the web giants. It will be a barrier to growth for all the hypothetical EU alternatives to the US web giants that would exist if it wasn't for X. Where X is whatever the EU says is the cause of European businesses failing to compete with their US rivals this week.FrancisUrquhart said:
In their wanting to screw the big tech like google and amazon, they are going to end up screwing a load of minnows. It is like the digital VAT rules all over again, but worse.RobD said:
The EU just want control over everything.Morris_Dancer said:Article 13. Apparently the text has been revised to make it even worse.
https://twitter.com/carryonmyflower/status/10957876486129950730 -
I doubt she is looking at anything other than a cosmetic change to the backstop and put it up for a meaningful vote and then follow the direction of the HOC, secretly hoping that ERG are marginalised as no deal is firmly taken off the agendaMorris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it seems Parliament has wrested from Theresa May the right to not make a decision.
0 -
Pink Panther country!TheAncientMariner said:
Tell that to the people of County Durham.SandyRentool said:
So devolution does not mean giving the people of Yorkshire the chance to choose their preferred system of local governance. Devolution imposed by Whitehall ain't devolution worth having.Verulamius said:
No hope. Blocked by Brokenshire earlier this week.OblitusSumMe said:
Yorkshire made a pitch for its own devolution recently. There is still hope.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, excepting England, of course, where the idea of a Parliament is not even a whisper on the political agenda.
https://www.centreforcities.org/blog/four-mayors-good-too-many-wasted-years-bad/
The Government's preferred mayoralty devolution is for City Region majors, not one encompassing the whole of Yorkshire.
(Sorry, it's a tic of mine)0 -
So was this vote good or bad for the Remainers or the hard Brexiteers? I get that the government has lost again, but apart from that I don't know what it means.0
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Not clear whether she was in Iraq. But presumably the Syrian authorities are now well aware of her situation and will either prosecute or not.SeanT said:
Agreed. But I think most Syrians and Iraqis would want to see her (and her like) tried and convicted in Syrian or Iraqi courts. So If we get involved in any way this is what we should be facilitating: her arrest and trial where she committed her crimes. We owe that to these poor countries we helped to destabilise.rkrkrk said:
Absolutely. But in the event that the Syrians do not do this (and it is not uncommon in times of civil war to focus on the most egregious crimes only) she should also face British justice.SeanT said:
She SHOULD be arrested, and handed over to the nearest judicial authorities. Her victims have a right to see justice done, where she committed her crimes against them.
It is a very dangerous precedent to set that someone who has done something very unpopular and probably illegal should be stripped of their citizenship and right to a trial. And her child is blameless.
If for some reason both countries refuse to do this (unlikely, I think, the Iraqi government in particular is eager to serve justice on Isis members) then yes, reluctantly let her make her way home, if she can. Then prosecute her here.
But I would go further than you. If she is not charged by Syrians, we should try to get her back to put her on trial.
The alternative is allowing someone potentially dangerous to be free and allowing them to raise a child (who I think probably is a British citizen).0 -
I’d be genuinely surprised if it was a crime to say you believe in beheading non-believers in either Iraq or Syria.SeanT said:
She expressly says it is OK to behead non-believers in her interview. That's surely a crime in itself: incitement to violence, and so on. Moreover, it doesn't really matter what we think or what British law says. Morally and ethically we must yield to the people of Syria and Iraq - the slaved and raped Yazidi women with slaughtered fathers and husbands - they are the victims of ISIS, they should decide what happens to her.kinabalu said:
OK, sorry, yes seen that now. Well I would imagine that will be the position.Cyclefree said:I put it down thread at 4:00 pm.
Essentially deal with her if she ends up here but make no effort to bring her back.
For me, her returning and shaking off the ideology and re-settling here would be the best outcome. But I don't think the UK government should feel the need to invest a great deal in the case.
Is the wife of a criminal also a criminal by dint of knowledge and approval of the criminal activities even if there is no active participation? I don't know. I suppose it has to be decided case by case.
My guess is "send her back to Britain so she can have free health care" would not be their immediate reaction, if asked.
0 -
This is all setting up for a denouement on 27 February. Given the mood I think the government will now be forced to concede an extension, provided that Grieve and co. can come up with the appropriate proposal.0
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There has been a significant shift in support for Welsh Independence recently and it is now around 25%. That is enough to bring it onto the political agenda but not enough to achieve independence - yet. Unfortunately.0
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No deal can't be taken off the table without saying we will remain if the deal is rejected.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt she is looking at anything other than a cosmetic change to the backstop and put it up for a meaningful vote and then follow the direction of the HOC, secretly hoping that ERG are marginalised as no deal is firmly taken off the agendaMorris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it seems Parliament has wrested from Theresa May the right to not make a decision.
0 -
Hope it builds up. Come on you plucky dragons go for it.Penddu said:There has been a significant shift in support for Welsh Independence recently and it is now around 25%. That is enough to bring it onto the political agenda but not enough to achieve independence - yet. Unfortunately.
0 -
In that May has lost a vote by a large majority on whether her renegotiation is supported by ParliamentPhilip_Thompson said:
Nothing has happened.SeanT said:
Why? What's happened?bigjohnowls said:
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Uber Peoples Voters furious
Whats not to like
Seriously. I've given up following Brexit, it's just so boring.
Nothing has changed.
In that May has her fingers in her ears and no plan B
You are right nothing has changed.0 -
The ERG has demonstrated that it is unreconcilable, by failing to support even the government's harmless motion.AndyJS said:So was this vote good or bad for the Remainers or the hard Brexiteers? I get that the government has lost again, but apart from that I don't know what it means.
Today's votes are of no formal consequence, but they will influence the mood, and embolden the government's opponents who are already showing growing signs of being willing to co-operate.
This should all help concentrate government minds. IMO it makes a deal along Labour's lines more likely, and an extension almost certain, unless the majority in Parliament gets headed off on procedure.0 -
Philip_Thompson said:
No deal can't be taken off the table without saying we will remain if the deal is rejected.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt she is looking at anything other than a cosmetic change to the backstop and put it up for a meaningful vote and then follow the direction of the HOC, secretly hoping that ERG are marginalised as no deal is firmly taken off the agendaMorris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it seems Parliament has wrested from Theresa May the right to not make a decision.
0 -
Don't forget she was still in this country when we had the murder of Lee Rigby and the tv coverage of the beheadings of the British hostages Hennings/Haines.SeanT said:
She expressly says it is OK to behead non-believers in her interview. That's surely a crime in itself: incitement to violence, and so on. Moreover, it doesn't really matter what we think or what British law says. Morally and ethically we must yield to the people of Syria and Iraq - the slaved and raped Yazidi women with slaughtered fathers and husbands - they are the victims of ISIS, they should decide what happens to her.kinabalu said:
OK, sorry, yes seen that now. Well I would imagine that will be the position.Cyclefree said:I put it down thread at 4:00 pm.
Essentially deal with her if she ends up here but make no effort to bring her back.
For me, her returning and shaking off the ideology and re-settling here would be the best outcome. But I don't think the UK government should feel the need to invest a great deal in the case.
Is the wife of a criminal also a criminal by dint of knowledge and approval of the criminal activities even if there is no active participation? I don't know. I suppose it has to be decided case by case.
My guess is "send her back to Britain so she can have free health care" would not be their immediate reaction, if asked.
The three still wanted to go even after these awful events .0 -
Anyone with betting profits on a 29 March departure might want to think about taking at least some of them now.0
-
Thanks.IanB2 said:
The ERG has demonstrated that it is unreconcilable, by failing to support even the government's harmless motion.AndyJS said:So was this vote good or bad for the Remainers or the hard Brexiteers? I get that the government has lost again, but apart from that I don't know what it means.
Today's votes are of no formal consequence, but they will influence the mood, and embolden the government's opponents who are already showing growing signs of being willing to co-operate.
This should all help concentrate government minds. IMO it makes a deal along Labour's lines more likely, and an extension almost certain, unless the majority in Parliament gets headed off on procedure.0 -
Yes it can, and probably now will be. The EU will grant an extension on the basis that things are likely to coalesce at least around Labour's plan, if not a fundamental rethink.Philip_Thompson said:
No deal can't be taken off the table without saying we will remain if the deal is rejected.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt she is looking at anything other than a cosmetic change to the backstop and put it up for a meaningful vote and then follow the direction of the HOC, secretly hoping that ERG are marginalised as no deal is firmly taken off the agendaMorris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it seems Parliament has wrested from Theresa May the right to not make a decision.
0 -
Are you agreeing with that or did your post not come through?Big_G_NorthWales said:Philip_Thompson said:
No deal can't be taken off the table without saying we will remain if the deal is rejected.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I doubt she is looking at anything other than a cosmetic change to the backstop and put it up for a meaningful vote and then follow the direction of the HOC, secretly hoping that ERG are marginalised as no deal is firmly taken off the agendaMorris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, it seems Parliament has wrested from Theresa May the right to not make a decision.
0 -
Twitter is responsible for breaking down party discipline, not just here but in the US as well. It's the perfect vehicle for narcissists the world over.0
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I haven't checked but I thought it was North only.kinabalu said:
This 'Border Poll' which gets referred to, I have always assumed it means a vote of all adults across the island of Ireland, north and south, and then re-unification only follows if there is a majority in total AND a majority in NI. Have I got that wrong? Is it just a vote in the north?Peter_the_Punter said:NI would be a bit of a hospital pass for the Republic. Should the NI vote for it, the Republic would find it difficult to say no, but the financial and other costs would be huge
I don't recall the basis for Northern Ireland only including 6 of Ulster's 9 counties, but the interesting dynamic would be if some counties (or parts of counties) voted for reunification while others didn't whether you could see a further partition. [That's usually what's meant by a "border poll" as a specific term, although don't know if there's a different meaning in a NI context]0 -
Grieve and Soubry were fairly uncompromising in their speeches - indeed it seems that in their minds they no longer see themselves as part of the governing party.SouthamObserver said:
0 -
Luckily the UK has a charismatic leader that inspires the people , to follow through on their 2016 vote.SeanT said:
Why? What's happened?bigjohnowls said:
EU happyGallowgate said:
🦄bigjohnowls said:
#CorbynsCustomsUnionkle4 said:
If she actually wants a deal as opposed to no deal she needs to give in and have a Corbyn Brexit. She isn't getting anything else. Yes, that's humiliating and it splits her party, but either you think no deal is bad or you don't. Admittedly she had previously said it would be ok, so I guess she was being honest about no deal being better than a bad deal after all, but is being dishonesty about her intentions now.CatMan said:
MPs happy
ERG furious.
Uber Peoples Voters furious
Whats not to like
Seriously. I've given up following Brexit, it's just so boring.0 -
Party discipline has broken down in this country over Europe long before Twitter came about.AndyJS said:Twitter is responsible for breaking down party discipline, not just here but in the US as well. It's the perfect vehicle for narcissists the world over.
Twitter is responsible for people hardening their opinions and refusing to compromise.0
This discussion has been closed.