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A threat to the Union is no threat to the Tories. 2017 England got a landslide Tory majority. 2017 Britain had an overall Tory majority.HYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party0 -
“Brexit - not as bad as WW1.”
Thompson PR Associates0 -
You don’t think there would be a political rebalancing then, if England became independent?Philip_Thompson said:
A threat to the Union is no threat to the Tories. 2017 England got a landslide Tory majority. 2017 Britain had an overall Tory majority.HYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party0 -
Did you enjoy your visit to Israel and Palestine. We did it some years ago and it was fascinating with so much to see and to try to understandHYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
It is true that travel broadens the mind0 -
That's good. Thing is, we will probably end up Brexiting eventually to the being the rule taker, which you said you don't wantPhilip_Thompson said:
Maybe.FF43 said:
And edit, my interest in Brexit is whether Leavers will ultimately accept the Vassal State, as being better than not leaving at all. I suspect they will because they don't in general seem interested in the exercise of sovereignty and making the necessary trade offs, which is what sovereignty means. That's more a Remainer thing. Leavers seem in general to view sovereignty in symbolic terms. If so, Philip, you would be an exception to this generalisation.FF43 said:
"Leaving properly" is a slogan, not a policy. I agree we're not ready yet to face up honestly to the implications of Brexit. But if we benefit from the rules, and we do for the reasons I have just given, we are highly likely to go Vassal State eventually. You can only hunt unicorns for so long, because actually they don't exist. We are still hunting the unicorns.Philip_Thompson said:
Mrs May's issues do, because she's not reconciled herself to Leaving properly.FF43 said:
Because if you are a rule taker those rules protect you too. The UK gains more with 27 countries being bound to the UK on the rules against having to follow the rules itself. Those rules protect the UK even if it has no say over drafting them and they didn't take UK interests into account when drafting them. With a high probability we are heading eventually to the Vassal State. Problem is, this means less democratic accountability, not more. Mrs May's issues, the fact three Leaver Brexit have resigned in frustration and MPs can't decide what to do, all stem from this contradiction.Philip_Thompson said:<
Who said the UK wanted a UK-wide one? This is a terrible interpretation of statehood that makes Theresa May out to be some kind of Louis XIV figure. L'etat c'est moi
Theresa May was open to a UK wide backstop, the UK never voted for a UK-wide backstop. Parliament never endorsed it. MPs from across Parliament expressed opposition to it long before it was agreed.
You're right that a vassal state leaves us worse off. That's why I oppose the backstop so vehemently.
I'm OK with Remaining.
I'm OK with Leaving.
I am not OK with Leaving but being a vassal.
To me take back control was not a slogan. It is what I voted for.
If we give up control to gain Brexit then I don't want it. May's deal is worse than remaining.
But I'm unusual in not being afraid of either remaining or leaving. I was torn in the referendum and think we will be fine either way.0 -
It's a fatal threat to a key, possibly the key, Tory tenet of unionism though.Philip_Thompson said:
A threat to the Union is no threat to the Tories. 2017 England got a landslide Tory majority. 2017 Britain had an overall Tory majority.HYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
What's the point of being in power if you obtain power by destroying your raison d'être?0 -
Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
It is a mess and not boring_Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.
We have to leave as best we can but no one is going to be happy0 -
It may be time to revisit that article, Sean.SeanT said:Well, I did write this specific paragraph about Brexit, in the Spectator, back in the Autumn of 2016
"There will be blood. Brexit is going to be painful, like childbirth. It just is. The Leave quacks who promised a brisk and blissful delivery don’t have enough diamorphine to dull the nerves. We might need epidurals from the Treasury. We will swear a lot, and not care. It might be rather embarrassing – think public enemas – but again, we probably won’t care, because we’ll be concentrating on the pain. Other countries will look at us and think “Jesus, I’m never going through that”. Immediately after Brexit, we will likely appear reduced, saggy, wrinkled. "
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/brexit-just-like-baby/
Brexit is less like childbirth, and more like a drug addict.
Chasing the elusive high promised by the dealers, we inject more and more poison into the veins of the body politic.
If it doesn't kill us, we will still likely be severely damaged for decades to come.0 -
And people about to start the biggest job interview of their lives don't tend to want to start off by appearing too smug about the end of the career of the man they want to replace.williamglenn said:
People always say that as if he died. Politicians who dream of being Prime Minister their whole careers don't normally become sombre the moment the opportunity presents itself, unless they realise it's a poisoned chalice.RobD said:
For the nth time, weren’t they like that because Cameron had just resigned?Scott_P said:
they knew...Gardenwalker said:I see the only debate tonight is how fucking dreadful Brexit will be.
We really have come along way from the Empire 2.0 wankbank of 2016.
/twitter.com/brianspanner1/status/746488316510482433?lang=en0 -
Well said. Good grief.HYUFD said:
Having been to Yad Vashem this afternoon whatever Brexit turns out to be it will not be the Holocaust and the comparison is absurdGardenwalker said:Can anyone believe that we’re now just weeks from a self imposed, major economic shock - “slow motion Lehmans” as Peston describes it.
Whatever the economic version is of a war criminal - May is it. And Corbyn. And the Tory party.
Bring on the Nuremberg trials. But, of course, post-Brexit, they must be in Northampton. Or Nuneaton.0 -
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
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Andrew Lilico (yes I know...) thought in 2014 that had Scotland voted for independence, the English right would have to become European because the project of "forming an alliance of Britons across the world" would be over._Anazina_ said:
You don’t think there would be a political rebalancing then, if England became independent?Philip_Thompson said:
A threat to the Union is no threat to the Tories. 2017 England got a landslide Tory majority. 2017 Britain had an overall Tory majority.HYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/03/andrew-lilico-the-wrench-upon-our-identities-that-scottish-independence-would-cause.html
And if the Conservative Party were no more, with no more Britain and no more Britons, and no more hope of resurrecting a Whiggish constitution or forming an alliance of Britons across the world, why should we not seek a pan-European centre-right political identity instead?
Fortunately all the above is currently just morbid reflection on what might be if all goes badly. Let us hope – fervently – that the Scots independence vote goes the right way and we need never reflect upon these sorrows again.0 -
And remainers accuse Brexiteers of being obsessed with WWII....Endillion said:
Well said. Good grief.HYUFD said:
Having been to Yad Vashem this afternoon whatever Brexit turns out to be it will not be the Holocaust and the comparison is absurdGardenwalker said:Can anyone believe that we’re now just weeks from a self imposed, major economic shock - “slow motion Lehmans” as Peston describes it.
Whatever the economic version is of a war criminal - May is it. And Corbyn. And the Tory party.
Bring on the Nuremberg trials. But, of course, post-Brexit, they must be in Northampton. Or Nuneaton.
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Did you visit the memorial to the children?HYUFD said:
Having been to Yad Vashem this afternoon whatever Brexit turns out to be it will not be the Holocaust and the comparison is absurdGardenwalker said:Can anyone believe that we’re now just weeks from a self imposed, major economic shock - “slow motion Lehmans” as Peston describes it.
Whatever the economic version is of a war criminal - May is it. And Corbyn. And the Tory party.
Bring on the Nuremberg trials. But, of course, post-Brexit, they must be in Northampton. Or Nuneaton.0 -
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.0 -
Ireland can't afford a hard border caused by the UK diverging from the EU, either through No Deal or by conceding on the backstop. At least it doesn't think it can afford it. Northern Ireland can afford a hardh border even less, but no-one in the mainland cares about them. My guess is that push chime to shove, Ireland would partially derogate from the Single Market in the case of No Deal. But they really, really don't see why they should, just to maintain Britain's Brexit delusions.
Point is, the backstop will never go away under any subsequent EU/UK deal.0 -
Call an election "on" May 2nd or "for" May 2nd?0
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Agree, absolutely.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
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I think if May won with her deal in the manifesto, the ERG would have to fall in line. Also if she expanded her majority, it'd probably make passing it easierNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.0 -
Most likely Wales would still stay though and Wales is the only country which had a Labour majority in 2017 plus while losing Scotland would make it more difficult to get a Labour PM due to the prospect of SNP support being lost it would make it easier to get a Labour overall majorityPhilip_Thompson said:
A threat to the Union is no threat to the Tories. 2017 England got a landslide Tory majority. 2017 Britain had an overall Tory majority.HYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party0 -
Perhaps, but that’s really irrelevant to what we’re talking about.Stereotomy said:
I think if May won with her deal in the manifesto, the ERG would have to fall in line. Also if she expanded her majority, it'd probably make passing it easierNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
A May victory would be a result of the electorate judging Corbyn a useless git, not because they approve of Brexit.
The issue would persist.
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Am still there until Saturday, leaving Jerusalem tomorrow and onto Galilee via Nablus.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Did you enjoy your visit to Israel and Palestine. We did it some years ago and it was fascinating with so much to see and to try to understandHYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
It is true that travel broadens the mind
As you no doubt discovered on your trip it is a fascinating region and full of history and of importance to the 3 religions of the book. Started off in Bethlehem and visited Hebron and Ramallah and Herod's Fortress of Masada, swam in the Dead Sea and have been staying in Jerusalem for the last few days.
I found Hebron the point where the divide between Palestinans and Jews was strongest, even the tomb of Abraham was separated between them. Masada was astonishing with spectacular views and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was a real mix of Christian traditions, especially good to visit early in the morning, the Garden Tomb near the hotel was also an interesting find which some Protestant traditions consider the actual site of Jesus' tomb0 -
What issue? For May, passing her deal _is_ success. You think she gives a toss about the 48%?Nigelb said:
Perhaps, but that’s really irrelevant to what we’re talking about.Stereotomy said:
I think if May won with her deal in the manifesto, the ERG would have to fall in line. Also if she expanded her majority, it'd probably make passing it easierNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
A May victory would be a result of the electorate judging Corbyn a useless git, not because they approve of Brexit.
The issue would persist.0 -
The Galilee is stunning. Do visit Nazareth if you get the chance.HYUFD said:
Am still there until Saturday, leaving Jerusalem tomorrow and onto Galilee via Nablus.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Did you enjoy your visit to Israel and Palestine. We did it some years ago and it was fascinating with so much to see and to try to understandHYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
It is true that travel broadens the mind
As you no doubt discovered on your trip it is a fascinating region and full of history and of importance to the 3 religions of the book. Started off in Bethlehem and visited Hebron and Ramallah and Herod's Fortress of Masada, swam in the Dead Sea and have been staying in Jerusalem for the last few days.
I found Hebron the point where the divide between Palestinans and Jews was strongest, even the tomb of Abraham was separated between them. Masada was astonishing with spectacular views and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was a real mix of Christian traditions, especially good to visit early in the morning, the Garden Tomb near the hotel was also an interesting find which some Protestant traditions consider the actual site of Jesus' tomb0 -
An election is an inspired move for May. Forces her opponents to support her manifesto or stand against her. An impossible choice. Labour are on an awkward position. A majority is there for the taking. It just needs a strong campaign. Oh dear.0
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The key historical traits of Toryism are really support for the monarchy and the landed classes though support for the Union grew shortly after thatBenpointer said:
It's a fatal threat to a key, possibly the key, Tory tenet of unionism though.Philip_Thompson said:
A threat to the Union is no threat to the Tories. 2017 England got a landslide Tory majority. 2017 Britain had an overall Tory majority.HYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdB would be attempting to implement Brexit in a hung parliament dependent on the ERG and DUP for support.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
But if you mean 'would a normal, sane government under any of the leading pre-Corbyn Labour politicians be preferable to a no-deal crash-out followed very probably by a Corbyn government?', then, yes, of course it would be massively preferable.
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
What's the point of being in power if you obtain power by destroying your raison d'être?0 -
Yes the Nuremberg trials were dealing with one of the worst genocides of human history, on a different scaleEndillion said:
Well said. Good grief.HYUFD said:
Having been to Yad Vashem this afternoon whatever Brexit turns out to be it will not be the Holocaust and the comparison is absurdGardenwalker said:Can anyone believe that we’re now just weeks from a self imposed, major economic shock - “slow motion Lehmans” as Peston describes it.
Whatever the economic version is of a war criminal - May is it. And Corbyn. And the Tory party.
Bring on the Nuremberg trials. But, of course, post-Brexit, they must be in Northampton. Or Nuneaton.0 -
England lead now 4020
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I've decided there's a simple solution to the never-ending backstop. Once the back-stop starts, just implement fully the plannned post-backstop border arrangements. Implement a de facto customs border where none actually exists. Nobody can complain about switching over to something that is already there.0
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There's going to be a GE sooner or later and the sooner it is the better for May.Jonathan said:An election is an inspired move for May. Forces her opponents to support her manifesto or stand against her. An impossible choice. Labour are on an awkward position. A majority is there for the taking. It just needs a strong campaign. Oh dear.
I really can't see how this government can stagger on until 2022 and if it did it would be unlikely to be in any functioning shape by then.0 -
Due to visit Nazareth on Wednesday and glad to hear the Galilee is worth waiting forydoethur said:
The Galilee is stunning. Do visit Nazareth if you get the chance.HYUFD said:
Am still there until Saturday, leaving Jerusalem tomorrow and onto Galilee via Nablus.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Did you enjoy your visit to Israel and Palestine. We did it some years ago and it was fascinating with so much to see and to try to understandHYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd question, because it's hard to see any world in which EdM and EdBrable.NickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
It is true that travel broadens the mind
As you no doubt discovered on your trip it is a fascinating region and full of history and of importance to the 3 religions of the book. Started off in Bethlehem and visited Hebron and Ramallah and Herod's Fortress of Masada, swam in the Dead Sea and have been staying in Jerusalem for the last few days.
I found Hebron the point where the divide between Palestinans and Jews was strongest, even the tomb of Abraham was separated between them. Masada was astonishing with spectacular views and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was a real mix of Christian traditions, especially good to visit early in the morning, the Garden Tomb near the hotel was also an interesting find which some Protestant traditions consider the actual site of Jesus' tomb0 -
or indeed by now.another_richard said:
There's going to be a GE sooner or later and the sooner it is the better for May.Jonathan said:An election is an inspired move for May. Forces her opponents to support her manifesto or stand against her. An impossible choice. Labour are on an awkward position. A majority is there for the taking. It just needs a strong campaign. Oh dear.
I really can't see how this government can stagger on until 2022 and if it did it would be unlikely to be in any functioning shape by then.0 -
I hope not. If we do then Brexit has failed.FF43 said:
That's good. Thing is, we will probably end up Brexiting eventually to the being the rule taker, which you said you don't wantPhilip_Thompson said:
Maybe.FF43 said:
And edit, my interest in Brexit is whether Leavers will ultimately accept the Vassal State, as being better than not leaving at all. I suspect they will because they don't in general seem interested in the exercise of sovereignty and making the necessary trade offs, which is what sovereignty means. That's more a Remainer thing. Leavers seem in general to view sovereignty in symbolic terms. If so, Philip, you would be an exception to this generalisation.FF43 said:
"Leaving properly" is a slogan, not a policy. I agree we're not ready yet to face up honestly to the implications of Brexit. But if we benefit from the rules, and we do for the reasons I have just given, we are highly likely to go Vassal State eventually. You can only hunt unicorns for so long, because actually they don't exist. We are still hunting the unicorns.Philip_Thompson said:
Mrs May's issues do, because she's not reconciled herself to Leaving properly.FF43 said:
Because if you are a rule taker those rules protect you too. The UK gains more with 27 countries being bound to the UK on the rules against having to follow the rules itself. Those rules protect the UK even if it has no say over drafting them and they didn't take UK interests into account when drafting them. With a high probability we are heading eventually to the Vassal State. Problem is, this means less democratic accountability, not more. Mrs May's issues, the fact three Leaver Brexit have resigned in frustration and MPs can't decide what to do, all stem from this contradiction.Philip_Thompson said:<
Who said the UK wanted a UK-wide one? This is a terrible interpretation of statehood that makes Theresa May out to be some kind of Louis XIV figure. L'etat c'est moi
Theresa May was open to a UK wide backstop, the UK never voted for a UK-wide backstop. Parliament never endorsed it. MPs from across Parliament expressed opposition to it long before it was agreed.
You're right that a vassal state leaves us worse off. That's why I oppose the backstop so vehemently.
I'm OK with Remaining.
I'm OK with Leaving.
I am not OK with Leaving but being a vassal.
To me take back control was not a slogan. It is what I voted for.
If we give up control to gain Brexit then I don't want it. May's deal is worse than remaining.
But I'm unusual in not being afraid of either remaining or leaving. I was torn in the referendum and think we will be fine either way.0 -
I was looking to see if I have any photos to whet your appetite but I don't - they're all on my main computer.HYUFD said:Due to visit Nazareth on Wednesday and glad to hear the Galilee is worth waiting for
The problem I found was I was spoiled for choice in what to look at. Could have spent a month there and not seen everything.0 -
You sum it up very well.HYUFD said:
Am still there until Saturday, leaving Jerusalem tomorrow and onto Galilee via Nablus.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Did you enjoy your visit to Israel and Palestine. We did it some years ago and it was fascinating with so much to see and to try to understandHYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given most polls show a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain and it would see mass defections of Tory Leave voters to UKIP or Farage's new party enabling Corbyn to pick up scores of seats on a split right-wing vote.SouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd questionNickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
No Deal is worse for the Tories longer term than a Deal given the greater threat to the economy and the Union but revoking Brexit could see not only Corbyn become PM but the Tories fall to third place and cease to be even the main opposition party
It is true that travel broadens the mind
As you no doubt discovered on your trip it is a fascinating region and full of history and of importance to the 3 religions of the book. Started off in Bethlehem and visited Hebron and Ramallah and Herod's Fortress of Masada, swam in the Dead Sea and have been staying in Jerusalem for the last few days.
I found Hebron the point where the divide between Palestinans and Jews was strongest, even the tomb of Abraham was separated between them. Masada was astonishing with spectacular views and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was a real mix of Christian traditions, especially good to visit early in the morning, the Garden Tomb near the hotel was also an interesting find which some Protestant traditions consider the actual site of Jesus' tomb
Our highlight was when our coach, with an Auschwitz survivor tour guide, drove round the road blocks on the first day of Arafat's peace treaty into Jericho and our guide got out, went up the steps at the walls and embraced the Palestinian soldier on duty. It was highly charged and symbolic as the Arab and Jew shared a genuine moment, and our bus of international tourists broke out in spontaneous applause
Sadly it did not last0 -
And he was spectacularly wrong. There is no 'alliance of Britons' across the world and never has been. There is an alliance - of varying depths and breadths - of English speaking peoples which has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of Great Britain as a state or not. We share a language and certain cultural affinities. That will either thrive or falter based on factors that are utterly divorced from whether or not Scotland and England are separate entities.williamglenn said:Andrew Lilico (yes I know...) thought in 2014 that had Scotland voted for independence, the English right would have to become European because the project of "forming an alliance of Britons across the world" would be over.
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/03/andrew-lilico-the-wrench-upon-our-identities-that-scottish-independence-would-cause.html
And if the Conservative Party were no more, with no more Britain and no more Britons, and no more hope of resurrecting a Whiggish constitution or forming an alliance of Britons across the world, why should we not seek a pan-European centre-right political identity instead?
Fortunately all the above is currently just morbid reflection on what might be if all goes badly. Let us hope – fervently – that the Scots independence vote goes the right way and we need never reflect upon these sorrows again.0 -
Only if you lack vision._Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
It solves May's problem, which is how to remove the stain of being a loser whilst having promised to stand down before the expected GE in 2022.kle4 said:
I like that tweet 1000%. I genuinely despair of the people who are pushing an election as a solution to this problem.Scott_P said:
After all, if the first vote didn't get it right, where's the harm in making people vote again?0 -
The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.0 -
or delusion.Richard_Tyndall said:
Only if you lack vision._Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.0 -
Things can get worse.IanB2 said:
or indeed by now.another_richard said:
There's going to be a GE sooner or later and the sooner it is the better for May.Jonathan said:An election is an inspired move for May. Forces her opponents to support her manifesto or stand against her. An impossible choice. Labour are on an awkward position. A majority is there for the taking. It just needs a strong campaign. Oh dear.
I really can't see how this government can stagger on until 2022 and if it did it would be unlikely to be in any functioning shape by then.0 -
To be fair he didn't actually do that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.0 -
May 2nd is a Thursday so think it should be call an election "for" May 2nd.solarflare said:Call an election "on" May 2nd or "for" May 2nd?
Which would mean she'll actually be calling the election "on" a day next month (if it happens)0 -
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.0 -
Root - 102 not out0
-
I'm always confused by people saying there's no 'point' to Brexit. Brexit is not a thing, it's a lack of a thing. It's a lack of a supranational governing body, of highly questionable democratic credentials, into which we paid a great deal of money, from which we took a great deal of regulation and legislation, and within which our economy made a loss. That is the 'thing' that needs justifying, and it was found to be utterly unjustified in the referendum. The hoohah surrounding the practicalities of leaving 'queues at Dover!!!!1!' is an utterly absurd argument for staying.Richard_Tyndall said:
Only if you lack vision._Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
Huzzah, England have avoided a blackwash0
-
Makes a change from 102 all out.Big_G_NorthWales said:Root - 102 not out
0 -
He pretty much did, by invoking the Nuremberg trials.IanB2 said:
To be fair he didn't actually do that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.0 -
In these benighted times, there are few British politicians who could be cited as role models for the young. But if I were asked to name one, I would, without hesitation, say Chris Grayling. For a very simple reason.
He shows that anything is possible.
He does. He is living, breathing proof that all you need, if you want to get somewhere in life, is self-belief. Not intelligence, or talent, or skill, or knowledge, or basic competence, or anything like that. Just self-belief.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/11/stop-knocking-chris-grayling-man-should-inspiration-us/0 -
Oh yeah? We thought that a couple of years ago: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41088545Pulpstar said:Huzzah, England have avoided a blackwash
0 -
And improves his conversion rate... which used to be our biggest concern.ydoethur said:
Makes a change from 102 all out.Big_G_NorthWales said:Root - 102 not out
0 -
Well given that there is absolutely nothing you can or will do to change the outcome or the consequences I would suggest that my positive vision is a far better place to be in than your dark delusion.IanB2 said:
or delusion.Richard_Tyndall said:
Only if you lack vision._Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
More euro doom on BBC2 in a moment.0
-
It was a foolish comparison, for sure. But defendents at those trials faced four indictments, the Holocaust being a subset relating mostly to count three and also count four.Endillion said:
He pretty much did, by invoking the Nuremberg trials.IanB2 said:
To be fair he didn't actually do that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.0 -
Agree entirely (not surprisingly)Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm always confused by people saying there's no 'point' to Brexit. Brexit is not a thing, it's a lack of a thing. It's a lack of a supranational governing body, of highly questionable democratic credentials, into which we paid a great deal of money, from which we took a great deal of regulation and legislation, and within which our economy made a loss. That is the 'thing' that needs justifying, and it was found to be utterly unjustified in the referendum. The hoohah surrounding the practicalities of leaving 'queues at Dover!!!!1!' is an utterly absurd argument for staying.Richard_Tyndall said:
Only if you lack vision._Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
The best place to be is prepared for what is the most likely to come to pass.Richard_Tyndall said:
Well given that there is absolutely nothing you can or will do to change the outcome or the consequences I would suggest that my positive vision is a far better place to be in than your dark delusion.IanB2 said:
or delusion.Richard_Tyndall said:
Only if you lack vision._Anazina_ said:Brexit is utterly pointless.
Just a completely boring, unimaginative, backward mess.
A black hole.0 -
He's a very soft target. I don't think for a second he deserves the opprobrium heaped on him.DecrepitJohnL said:In these benighted times, there are few British politicians who could be cited as role models for the young. But if I were asked to name one, I would, without hesitation, say Chris Grayling. For a very simple reason.
He shows that anything is possible.
He does. He is living, breathing proof that all you need, if you want to get somewhere in life, is self-belief. Not intelligence, or talent, or skill, or knowledge, or basic competence, or anything like that. Just self-belief.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/11/stop-knocking-chris-grayling-man-should-inspiration-us/0 -
So you're saying that he didn't really accuse Brexiteers of genocide, just of conspiracy to murder, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity?IanB2 said:
It was a foolish comparison, for sure. But defendents at those trials faced four indictments, the Holocaust being a subset relating mostly to count three and also count four.Endillion said:
He pretty much did, by invoking the Nuremberg trials.IanB2 said:
To be fair he didn't actually do that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
I think the comparison remains a crime against perspective.0 -
‘They did it first’ is a pretty childish argument,Gardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Shame to see you resort to it, GW.
0 -
Is the May 2 election shizz anything to do with binning off a troublesome HoC for six weeks?
I can’t see it helping anyone or anything, but a bit of untrammelled emergency executive power would probably appeal to Tessie right now.0 -
I don't think it for a second either, I think it all the time.Luckyguy1983 said:
He's a very soft target. I don't think for a second he deserves the opprobrium heaped on him.DecrepitJohnL said:In these benighted times, there are few British politicians who could be cited as role models for the young. But if I were asked to name one, I would, without hesitation, say Chris Grayling. For a very simple reason.
He shows that anything is possible.
He does. He is living, breathing proof that all you need, if you want to get somewhere in life, is self-belief. Not intelligence, or talent, or skill, or knowledge, or basic competence, or anything like that. Just self-belief.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/11/stop-knocking-chris-grayling-man-should-inspiration-us/
And he's still not as useless as Laura Pidcock.0 -
Ah, for example the good relations between Britain and Ireland that are doing so well despite Brexit?Richard_Tyndall said:
And he was spectacularly wrong. There is no 'alliance of Britons' across the world and never has been. There is an alliance - of varying depths and breadths - of English speaking peoples which has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of Great Britain as a state or not. We share a language and certain cultural affinities. That will either thrive or falter based on factors that are utterly divorced from whether or not Scotland and England are separate entities.williamglenn said:Andrew Lilico (yes I know...) thought in 2014 that had Scotland voted for independence, the English right would have to become European because the project of "forming an alliance of Britons across the world" would be over.
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/03/andrew-lilico-the-wrench-upon-our-identities-that-scottish-independence-would-cause.html
And if the Conservative Party were no more, with no more Britain and no more Britons, and no more hope of resurrecting a Whiggish constitution or forming an alliance of Britons across the world, why should we not seek a pan-European centre-right political identity instead?
Fortunately all the above is currently just morbid reflection on what might be if all goes badly. Let us hope – fervently – that the Scots independence vote goes the right way and we need never reflect upon these sorrows again.0 -
I described May (and Corbyn) as guilty of the “economic version of a war crime”, and then suggested facetiously that any subsequent trial be held in Nuneaton rather than Nuremberg.ydoethur said:
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Somehow this is construed as comparing Brexit to the Holocaust by the pearl-clutching brigade, who seek to parade their noble and pure consciences while simultaneously aiming to shut down criticism.
Gillray would have farted in their general direction.0 -
I'd probably not tire of punching him but I don't believe he's sufficiently key to the whole thing that any of his crapness actually matters in the real world. The trains would still be shit even if he wasn't there. Airily irrelevant rather than grossly incompetent.Luckyguy1983 said:
He's a very soft target. I don't think for a second he deserves the opprobrium heaped on him.DecrepitJohnL said:In these benighted times, there are few British politicians who could be cited as role models for the young. But if I were asked to name one, I would, without hesitation, say Chris Grayling. For a very simple reason.
He shows that anything is possible.
He does. He is living, breathing proof that all you need, if you want to get somewhere in life, is self-belief. Not intelligence, or talent, or skill, or knowledge, or basic competence, or anything like that. Just self-belief.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/11/stop-knocking-chris-grayling-man-should-inspiration-us/0 -
While he claims to hold down a cabinet post, he deserves everything he gets.Luckyguy1983 said:
He's a very soft target. I don't think for a second he deserves the opprobrium heaped on him.DecrepitJohnL said:In these benighted times, there are few British politicians who could be cited as role models for the young. But if I were asked to name one, I would, without hesitation, say Chris Grayling. For a very simple reason.
He shows that anything is possible.
He does. He is living, breathing proof that all you need, if you want to get somewhere in life, is self-belief. Not intelligence, or talent, or skill, or knowledge, or basic competence, or anything like that. Just self-belief.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/11/stop-knocking-chris-grayling-man-should-inspiration-us/
And yes, he’s a soft target... because he’s utterly useless.
0 -
I think your failure to understand satire and invective is a cognitive defect.ydoethur said:
So you're saying that he didn't really accuse Brexiteers of genocide, just of conspiracy to murder, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity?IanB2 said:
It was a foolish comparison, for sure. But defendents at those trials faced four indictments, the Holocaust being a subset relating mostly to count three and also count four.Endillion said:
He pretty much did, by invoking the Nuremberg trials.IanB2 said:
To be fair he didn't actually do that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
I think the comparison remains a crime against perspective.0 -
I think he has a near impossible job. As an example, it is a known fact that train drivers are overpaid, and strike at the drop of a hat. Not really Grayling's fault. But he's a convenient target.ydoethur said:
I don't think it for a second either, I think it all the time.Luckyguy1983 said:
He's a very soft target. I don't think for a second he deserves the opprobrium heaped on him.DecrepitJohnL said:In these benighted times, there are few British politicians who could be cited as role models for the young. But if I were asked to name one, I would, without hesitation, say Chris Grayling. For a very simple reason.
He shows that anything is possible.
He does. He is living, breathing proof that all you need, if you want to get somewhere in life, is self-belief. Not intelligence, or talent, or skill, or knowledge, or basic competence, or anything like that. Just self-belief.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/11/stop-knocking-chris-grayling-man-should-inspiration-us/
And he's still not as useless as Laura Pidcock.0 -
Might be what gets Corbyn to err.. release enough loyalists to abstain on the MV ?Harris_Tweed said:Is the May 2 election shizz anything to do with binning off a troublesome HoC for six weeks?
I can’t see it helping anyone or anything, but a bit of untrammelled emergency executive power would probably appeal to Tessie right now.0 -
An election for May 2nd would fit a scenario where May rams her deal through in late March and is promptly defenestrated by the DUP supporting a VONC. Not sure how or when the legislation to implement the deal gets passed though. It would require an A50 extension and the incoming government deciding to keep with the deal.solarflare said:Call an election "on" May 2nd or "for" May 2nd?
0 -
The trials were the most notable example of political and military leaders being held accountable by an international court. But were conceived, in principle at least, before the Holocaust had happened, at the request of the Poles in 1940. As I said, it was a very foolish analogy.ydoethur said:
So you're saying that he didn't really accuse Brexiteers of genocide, just of conspiracy to murder, crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity?IanB2 said:
It was a foolish comparison, for sure. But defendents at those trials faced four indictments, the Holocaust being a subset relating mostly to count three and also count four.Endillion said:
He pretty much did, by invoking the Nuremberg trials.IanB2 said:
To be fair he didn't actually do that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I have no shame in condemning anyone, and I mean anyone, who compares brexit to the HolocaustGardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
I think the comparison remains a crime against perspective.0 -
You misunderstand me.Nigelb said:
‘They did it first’ is a pretty childish argument,Gardenwalker said:The sense of rising panic doe
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Shame to see you resort to it, GW.
I’m not claiming they did it first.
I’m calling it out as pure sanctimony.0 -
Tusk accusing Juncker of arrogance over the migration crisis. It was Juncker who argued for a more open border and migrant quotas over European values, otherwise it would be "just enough international organisation".
Tusk arguing it was an EU Commission power grab and wanted to strengthen your external border instead.
Cameron and the UK stayed totally out it, not being in Schengen.0 -
This is quite funny (unless you're one of those thin skinned, touchy types).
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/10949323658000220160 -
May 2nd GE would be the best day this year, if we must have an election. Local Govt elections across the country are on the same day...
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Even if I accepted your interpretation of your post, and that isn't the way it comes across, the fact remains you compared May and Corbyn to Nazis. Whatever their faults, that is just crass (Corbyn may dislike Jews, but he's not actively trying to kill them even if some of his friends are). They are, admittedly rather badly, implementing a decision th country forced on them.Gardenwalker said:
I described May (and Corbyn) as guilty of the “economic version of a war crime”, and then suggested facetiously that any subsequent trial be held in Nuneaton rather than Nuremberg.ydoethur said:
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Somehow this is construed as comparing Brexit to the Holocaust by the pearl-clutching brigade, who seek to parade their noble and pure consciences while simultaneously aiming to shut down criticism.
Gillray would have farted in their general direction.
And incidentally Brexit, whatever else it is, isn't anything remotely comparable to a war crime.
Finally, for your point to be valid this would have to be planned. The whole problem is it hasn't been.
I don't think you do yourself any favours by such lurid hyperbole and I'm sure several posters will tell you coming from me that's practically a professional opinion.0 -
Well said, and that really ought to be the end of the matter.ydoethur said:
Even if I accepted your interpretation of your post, and that isn't the way it comes across, the fact remains you compared May and Corbyn to Nazis. Whatever their faults, that is just crass (Corbyn may dislike Jews, but he's not actively trying to kill them even if some of his friends are). They are, admittedly rather badly, implementing a decision th country forced on them.Gardenwalker said:
I described May (and Corbyn) as guilty of the “economic version of a war crime”, and then suggested facetiously that any subsequent trial be held in Nuneaton rather than Nuremberg.ydoethur said:
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Somehow this is construed as comparing Brexit to the Holocaust by the pearl-clutching brigade, who seek to parade their noble and pure consciences while simultaneously aiming to shut down criticism.
Gillray would have farted in their general direction.
And incidentally Brexit, whatever else it is, isn't anything remotely comparable to a war crime.
Finally, for your point to be valid this would have to be planned. The whole problem is it hasn't been.
I don't think you do yourself any favours by such lurid hyperbole and I'm sure several posters will tell you coming from me that's practically a professional opinion.0 -
You are being a rather pompous pedant.ydoethur said:
Even if I accepted your interpretation of your post, and that isn't the way it comes across, the fact remains you compared May and Corbyn to Nazis. Whatever their faults, that is just crass. They are, admittedly rather badly, implementing a decision th country forced on them.Gardenwalker said:
I described May (and Corbyn) as guilty of the “economic version of a war crime”, and then suggested facetiously that any subsequent trial be held in Nuneaton rather than Nuremberg.ydoethur said:
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Somehow this is construed as comparing Brexit to the Holocaust by the pearl-clutching brigade, who seek to parade their noble and pure consciences while simultaneously aiming to shut down criticism.
Gillray would have farted in their general direction.
And incidentally Brexit, whatever else it is, isn't anything remotely comparable to a war crime.
Finally, for your point to be valid this would have to be planned. The whole problem is it hasn't been.
I don't think you do yourself any favours by such lurid hyperbole and I'm sure several posters will tell you coming from me that's practically a professional opinion.
Upthread, Jasper Carrott jokes about the bomb going off. Are we to despise him on behalf of the dead and maimed of Nagasaki and Hiroshima?
Anyway. The serious point is that both May and Corbyn are willing to inflict economic damage to the country for no reason other than party politics.
It is quite wicked.
I can’t think of a modern comparator, to be honest, outside of authoritarian regimes.0 -
I look forward to similar hoity toity condemnations of Corbyn being called a Stalinist (or indeed a Communist/Trot/Maoist).ydoethur said:
Even if I accepted your interpretation of your post, and that isn't the way it comes across, the fact remains you compared May and Corbyn to Nazis. Whatever their faults, that is just crass (Corbyn may dislike Jews, but he's not actively trying to kill them even if some of his friends are). They are, admittedly rather badly, implementing a decision th country forced on them.Gardenwalker said:
I described May (and Corbyn) as guilty of the “economic version of a war crime”, and then suggested facetiously that any subsequent trial be held in Nuneaton rather than Nuremberg.ydoethur said:
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Somehow this is construed as comparing Brexit to the Holocaust by the pearl-clutching brigade, who seek to parade their noble and pure consciences while simultaneously aiming to shut down criticism.
Gillray would have farted in their general direction.
And incidentally Brexit, whatever else it is, isn't anything remotely comparable to a war crime.
Finally, for your point to be valid this would have to be planned. The whole problem is it hasn't been.
I don't think you do yourself any favours by such lurid hyperbole and I'm sure several posters will tell you coming from me that's practically a professional opinion.0 -
325/4 at the close.
Joe Root scores his third century since his last fifty.0 -
There's already an election on May 2nd: local elections!0
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But when it comes to those, I'm the one making them!Theuniondivvie said:
I look forward to similar hoity toity condemnations of Corbyn being called a Stalinist (or indeed a Communist/Trot/Maoist).ydoethur said:
Even if I accepted your interpretation of your post, and that isn't the way it comes across, the fact remains you compared May and Corbyn to Nazis. Whatever their faults, that is just crass (Corbyn may dislike Jews, but he's not actively trying to kill them even if some of his friends are). They are, admittedly rather badly, implementing a decision th country forced on them.Gardenwalker said:
I described May (and Corbyn) as guilty of the “economic version of a war crime”, and then suggested facetiously that any subsequent trial be held in Nuneaton rather than Nuremberg.ydoethur said:
You were the one who said Brexiteers should face Nuremberg-style trials. When last I checked, you were a Remainer.Gardenwalker said:
Oh god, the prissy pearl-clutchers are out in force.Big_G_NorthWales said:
During our European car holidays with our 3 children years ago we visited Dachau and Mauthausen, and subsequently Yad Vashem, and the horrors they represented had a deep lasting effect on all my family and any comparison to brexit is utterly shamefulNigelb said:
Of course it wouldn’t.Scott_P said:
This is also why, whatever outcome we get, deal, no deal or remain, the national Brexit fracture will not be healed for some cnsiderable time.
It was, of course, Brexiters who brought up the Holocaust and then tried to claim the higher moral ground. Shame to see you indulge in it, Big G.
Somehow this is construed as comparing Brexit to the Holocaust by the pearl-clutching brigade, who seek to parade their noble and pure consciences while simultaneously aiming to shut down criticism.
Gillray would have farted in their general direction.
And incidentally Brexit, whatever else it is, isn't anything remotely comparable to a war crime.
Finally, for your point to be valid this would have to be planned. The whole problem is it hasn't been.
I don't think you do yourself any favours by such lurid hyperbole and I'm sure several posters will tell you coming from me that's practically a professional opinion.
Edit - well, except for Communist. He's the one who calls himself that.0 -
I don't think we're going to live that long...RobD said:
Makes you wonder what on Earth we will all be discussing once it’s done and dusted.Big_G_NorthWales said:Just catching up the thread and not much harmony around, sadly
The debate is as polarised and heated as ever with no compromise in sight
But compromise there has to be and we need a whole load of mps to grow up
Saying that is easy, but I do wish the anger and unnecessary attacks could be dialled down even a little as no one wins
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There are saying they won't re-open the Withdrawal Agreement rather too much.Scott_P said:
That suggests to me they will do something that effectively amounts to reopening the Withdrawal Agreement.0 -
Yes there is plenty here to see but am with a group and a guide so tend to get directed to the key points or sites of special interestydoethur said:
I was looking to see if I have any photos to whet your appetite but I don't - they're all on my main computer.HYUFD said:Due to visit Nazareth on Wednesday and glad to hear the Galilee is worth waiting for
The problem I found was I was spoiled for choice in what to look at. Could have spent a month there and not seen everything.0 -
Could we hold the Euro elections on the same day?Mortimer said:May 2nd GE would be the best day this year, if we must have an election. Local Govt elections across the country are on the same day...
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They're inflicting it on us because we voted for it.Gardenwalker said:Anyway. The serious point is that both May and Corbyn are willing to inflict economic damage to the country for no reason other than party politics.
It is quite wicked.
I can’t think of a modern comparator, to be honest, outside of authoritarian regimes.
Even though I remain convinced we were wrong to do so, to say that implementing the result of a democratic vote is comparable to an authoritarian regime - well, really!
I'm afraid you may think me a pompous pedant, but you're just coming across as hysterical now.0 -
Yes I was thinking that. It might not make any difference to Brexit - there's likely be no majority for anything afterwards either as the country is so split - but it might save a lot of story council seatsMortimer said:May 2nd GE would be the best day this year, if we must have an election. Local Govt elections across the country are on the same day...
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Sounds a good story and shows that humanity can bridge ethnic divisions.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You sum it up very well.HYUFD said:
Am still there until Saturday, leaving Jerusalem tomorrow and onto Galilee via Nablus.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Did you enjoy your visit to Israel and Palestine. We did it some years ago and it was fascinating with so much to see and to try to understandHYUFD said:
Actually Corbyn's best chance of becoming PM is if the Tories revoke Brexit given mostn partySouthamObserver said:
A Tory No Deal Brexit is the one scenario under which Jeremy Corbyn has a realistic chance of becoming PM. Which, of course, is why he wants one.Richard_Nabavi said:
That's a slightly odd questionNickPalmer said:The right way for potential PMs to eat a bacon roll, perhaps? Remember those innocent days?
Are there Conservatives who admit they'd actually feel better if EdM and EdB were running things, rather than TM and PH (not to forget Andrea Jenkyn, of course), even if EdM was a sloppy eater and EdB was a bit fat?
It is true that travel broadens the mind
As you no doubt discovered on your trip it is a fascinating region and full of history and of importance to the 3 religions of the book. Started off in Bethlehem and visited Hebron and Ramallah and Herod's Fortress of Masada, swam in the Dead Sea and have been staying in Jerusalem for the last few days.
I found Hebron the point where the divide between Palestinans and Jews was strongest, even the tomb of Abraham was separated between them. Masada was astonishing with spectacular views and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was a real mix of Christian traditions, especially good to visit early in the morning, the Garden Tomb near the hotel was also an interesting find which some Protestant traditions consider the actual site of Jesus' tomb
Our highlight was when our coach, with an Auschwitz survivor tour guide, drove round the road blocks on the first day of Arafat's peace treaty into Jericho and our guide got out, went up the steps at the walls and embraced the Palestinian soldier on duty. It was highly charged and symbolic as the Arab and Jew shared a genuine moment, and our bus of international tourists broke out in spontaneous applause
Sadly it did not last
Anyway, two hours ahead here so off to bed now, night all0 -
Wonder whether Liddy asked Van Rompuy - "Who Are You" ?Scott_P said:
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I had a lot of fun running around on my own in a little Chevvy Spark. But boy, was I unpopular when driving up steep hills!HYUFD said:
Yes there is plenty here to see but am with a group and a guide so tend to get directed to the key points or sites of special interestydoethur said:
I was looking to see if I have any photos to whet your appetite but I don't - they're all on my main computer.HYUFD said:Due to visit Nazareth on Wednesday and glad to hear the Galilee is worth waiting for
The problem I found was I was spoiled for choice in what to look at. Could have spent a month there and not seen everything.
I hope to go back one day.
Anyway, I am worn out, and I am off to bed. Sweet dreams all.0 -
I think the Tories might well win a May 2 GE, providing... May shows up at the debates; No death/granny tax0
This discussion has been closed.