King Cole, I'm not sure an Irish referendum on rejoining the UK would be a wise move.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Why do so many racists support West Ham?

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/west-ham-launch-investigation-over-15789145

Because Millwall is over its quota?

JonWC said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

JonWC said:

All this praise for Lincolnshire feels like I've stumbled into a parallel universe.

Bloody bizarre, Lincolnshire is the armpit of the UK.

Mind you PB is frequented by people who think pineapple is an acceptable topping on pizza.

I have wondered if there is any part of the UK you approve of, but fortunately am not easily offended.

I like Yorkshire, I like London, I love Cambridge, I love Edinburgh.

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SeanT said:

paulyork64 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

algarkirk said:

And it's way off the A Roads you need to be in Lincolnshire, and without any sense of rush. It is huge with amazing variety, history, buildings and space. Lots of sky. Takes your mind off Brexit.

Driving north from South East London via the M11, A14 and A1, the Lincolnshire section is probably the bleakest and most unlovely part of the journey. But it does have my favourite roadsign of the entire drive, indicating the turnoff for the Honeypot Lane Industrial Estate. I can't quite articulate why, but seeing this sign always makes my day.

while staying in the area we decided to have a day trip into Grantham. It looked so awful we never even parked. went to Stamford instead which was a pleasant little place.

I think you have to get well off the (admittedly quite desolate) main roads in Lincolnshire. There are some beautiful corners, lovely villages, rambling castles .... and super-spooky towers.

e.g. this place, which featured in a Tom Knox thriller, is one of the only places I have been where I have ever wondered about the possible presence of ghosts, or some kind of horrible supernatural menace. There are literally bones in the brickwork, and weird medieval apotropaic graffiti (marks to ward off evil) all over the walls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Bruer_Preceptory

It didn't help that the cold dank grey winter day I was there, as I was exploring, in the dying light, I heard the most fiendish inhuman wailing outside: it literally made my flesh creep and my heart race. When I shiveringly opened the door, I saw that they were exercising the local pack of foxhounds. The howl they make, if you don't know what is making it, is quite horrifying.

Bloodhounds, dolt.

Are you OK? You seem quite irritable and dyspeptic, old man. In the spirit of kindness that I showed to Alastair you should know that irritability is a significant early symptom of Alzheimers. And it's not like you lack the other symptoms, either.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/first-symptoms-of-alzheimers-may-be-depression-irritability-011415#1

They were not foxhounds, they were bloodhounds. Why I waste my time trying to educate you goodness only knows.

I am happy to relieve you of your bizarre vocation to "educate me", as you wrestle with your increasing cognitive deficit. Deal?

I think you would be a better person if you were a tadge less unintelligent.

steve_garner said:

I see the NIESR have joined the EY Item Club in forecasting that a no deal Brexit will not prevent ongoing increases in GDP, however limited. Experts eh!

Only if the EU and government do lots to mitigate it.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Why do so many racists support West Ham?

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/west-ham-launch-investigation-over-15789145

The first time I ever went to a West Ham football match, I saw spray-painted on the entrance gate "Hitler was Right. Gas the Jews."

I rather like Jean-Claude Juncker. I appreciate that this is a minority position.

https://twitter.com/jujikucz/status/1093167948276137986

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, *raises an eyebrow*

You like Yorkshire, and love Cambridge?

And you call yourself a Yorkshireman?

Speaking of Yorkshiremen, been re-watching I, Claudius. Brian Blessed and Patrick Stewart, the former without a beard, the latter with hair, are rather good.

I had the best years of my life in Cambridge.

Barnsley stops Yorkshire from being perfect.

https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1093174983377997824

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SeanT said:

paulyork64 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

algarkirk said:

And it's way off the A Roads you need to be in Lincolnshire, and without any sense of rush. It is huge with amazing variety, history, buildings and space. Lots of sky. Takes your mind off Brexit.

Driving north from South East London via the M11, A14 and A1, the Lincolnshire section is probably the bleakest and most unlovely part of the journey. But it does have my favourite roadsign of the entire drive, indicating the turnoff for the Honeypot Lane Industrial Estate. I can't quite articulate why, but seeing this sign always makes my day.

while staying in the area we decided to have a day trip into Grantham. It looked so awful we never even parked. went to Stamford instead which was a pleasant little place.

I think you have to get well off the (admittedly quite desolate) main roads in Lincolnshire. There are some beautiful corners, lovely villages, rambling castles .... and super-spooky towers.

e.g. this place, which featured in a Tom Knox thriller, is one of the only places I have been where I have ever wondered about the possible presence of ghosts, or some kind of horrible supernatural menace. There are literally bones in the brickwork, and weird medieval apotropaic graffiti (marks to ward off evil) all over the walls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Bruer_Preceptory

It didn't help that the cold dank grey winter day I was there, as I was exploring, in the dying light, I heard the most fiendish inhuman wailing outside: it literally made my flesh creep and my heart race. When I shiveringly opened the door, I saw that they were exercising the local pack of foxhounds. The howl they make, if you don't know what is making it, is quite horrifying.

Bloodhounds, dolt.

Are you OK? You seem quite irritable and dyspeptic, old man. In the spirit of kindness that I showed to Alastair you should know that irritability is a significant early symptom of Alzheimers. And it's not like you lack the other symptoms, either.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/first-symptoms-of-alzheimers-may-be-depression-irritability-011415#1

They were not foxhounds, they were bloodhounds. Why I waste my time trying to educate you goodness only knows.

I am happy to relieve you of your bizarre vocation to "educate me", as you wrestle with your increasing cognitive deficit. Deal?

I think you would be a better person if you were a tadge less unintelligent.

Er, QED.

Zing

Chris said:

MarqueeMark said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1093168989327499264

No Deal it is then.

And on your head be it, Juncker......

Can you not see that the man is about to prostrate himself before Theresa May and beg to be allowed to renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement? The signs are all there.

The signs are all there that from the start they never intended to negotiate in good faith, their primary purpose being to contrive an outcome where UK politicians were emboldened to reverse the decision taken by the people who elect them. That will probably still be the eventual outcome.

For any meaningful negotiations to happen with the prospect of the EU negotiating in good faith, it first requires Brexit to be accepted by all parties as a done deal. That requires further talks on any long term agreement to be shelved and convened to recommence shortly after 29th March 2019. I don't though think that our PM has the guts to try to do that.

paulyork64 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

algarkirk said:

And it's way off the A Roads you need to be in Lincolnshire, and without any sense of rush. It is huge with amazing variety, history, buildings and space. Lots of sky. Takes your mind off Brexit.

Driving north from South East London via the M11, A14 and A1, the Lincolnshire section is probably the bleakest and most unlovely part of the journey. But it does have my favourite roadsign of the entire drive, indicating the turnoff for the Honeypot Lane Industrial Estate. I can't quite articulate why, but seeing this sign always makes my day.

while staying in the area we decided to have a day trip into Grantham. It looked so awful we never even parked. went to Stamford instead which was a pleasant little place.

Stamford is honorary Rutland.

murali_s said:

Donald Tusk = Spot on!

Brexiteers = Xenophobes / little Englanders / thickos (all three cohorts share one thing - no plan worth the paper it's written on).

"Nothing has changed" - we are still heading for a calamitous Tory hard Brexit. Strap yourselves in suckers!

And you think those comments add to the debate ?

kinabalu said:

RobD said:

But it might solve the impasse.

More than that, it could be the ONLY method by which the impasse can (at least potentially) be resolved in the required timeframe.

I think, if she cannot get her deal through, the case (from her viewpoint) for a GE is compelling.

I think she will go for it. I think it's her Backstop.

I still don’t see how she gets an election past the Cabinet, let alone the wider body of her backbenchers - who are united against her deal but for opposing reasons.

Would Anna Soubry, Jacob R-M and 648 other candidates all be expected to back the deal, in order to stand as Conservatives? The deal that Parliament has already declared to be a dodo.

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

I can not foresee a truce being sought any time soon. If the UK is going to fold it will be before we wait. Once we are out it will both be too late and MPs will have chosen to go for it. It will take something dramatic to enforce a u-turn.

The EU have the advantage (in addition to all the other advantages they have) of a better clock. They do not have to decide whether to fold until after we have decided whether we are going to fold. We get first dibs on folding. It will thus take nerves of steel not to. Do we have nerves of steel? Are we, Britain, made of the Right Stuff?

Pose this question in pubs and clubs all around the nation and (if sufficient drinks have been consumed) there will be but one resounding response -

DAMN RIGHT WE ARE!

That's quite right.

Ultimately for the vast majority of people I think if they were afraid of leaving without a deal they'd have voted Remain. I would have. You can't ever guarantee a deal unless you cave and give the other side everything they want and make no demands.

The fact is like it or not the public voted to Leave and the public isn't afraid.

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1093166550205517824?s=21

steve_garner said:

TOPPING said:

steve_garner said:

I see the NIESR have joined the EY Item Club in forecasting that a no deal Brexit will not prevent ongoing increases in GDP, however limited. Experts eh!

NIESR were the originators of the incendiary (to those who didn't understand it, ie @SeanT for example) £6,200 per household diminution in wealth by whenever it was. No one has ever said GDP would shrink.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought I'd read on here about economic chaos and catastrophe if we left with no deal. It's encouraging that no has ever said GDP will shrink in such event.

You are eliding reduced growth and recession and depression. NIESR and EY Item Club are talking about reduced growth vs an alternative scenario.

NEW THREAD

Having been obliged to take a home maintenance-related half-day off work, I have recently returned from a little walk down to the new M&S food shop, which opened today.

It's brilliant, indeed quite possibly the most exciting thing to have happened around here at least since King James I owned a place in town, if not since we were last pillaged by the Vikings. Moreover, whilst I neglected to examine the origin of the fresh fruit, most of the vegetables at least came either from within the UK or from Latin America. Thus the local well-heeled middle classes (who, despite voting in increasing numbers for the Lib Dems recently, will all have ceased to care about Brexit through sheer excitement over this place by the end of next week at the latest) are highly unlikely to perish of vitamin deficiencies by Easter, regardless of the behaviour of the politicians.

The Aldi next door to it opens in a fortnight. Terrible news for the local Tesco Extra, wonderful for everybody else.

SeanT said:

I am determined to start work at 4, tho.

4

Yes, 4. Definitely.

4

Now, is it really worth the bother?

SeanT said:

OldKingCole said:

SeanT said:

TOPPING said:

SeanT said:

paulyork64 said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

algarkirk said:

And it's way off the A Roads you need to be in Lincolnshire, and without any sense of rush. It is huge with amazing variety, history, buildings and space. Lots of sky. Takes your mind off Brexit.

Driving north from South East London via the M11, A14 and A1, the Lincolnshire section is probably the bleakest and most unlovely part of the journey. But it does have my favourite roadsign of the entire drive, indicating the turnoff for the Honeypot Lane Industrial Estate. I can't quite articulate why, but seeing this sign always makes my day.

while staying in the area we decided to have a day trip into Grantham. It looked so awful we never even parked. went to Stamford instead which was a pleasant little place.

I thinkringly opened the door, I saw that they were exercising the local pack of foxhounds. The howl they make, if you don't know what is making it, is quite horrifying.

Bloodhounds, dolt.

Are you OK? You seem quite irritable and dyspeptic, old man. In the spirit of kindness that I showed to Alastair you should know that irritability is a significant early symptom of Alzheimers. And it's not like you lack the other symptoms, either.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/first-symptoms-of-alzheimers-may-be-depression-irritability-011415#1

You're not happy, are you Mr T? Find a better bottle of wine and cheer yourself up.

I'm actually in a very buoyant mood. New book's a killer, got some TV deals for Tremayne up and running. I have a suntan from Vietnam and I'm off to Nepal and then the desert state of the USA, for the Times, in a couple of weeks. And my wife is 23. Today is a day when I feel unjustifiably lucky.

Hence my uncharacteristic niceness, all day, perhaps.

What I AM doing is procrastinating horribly, to avoid a tedious edit (as I said below). PB is good for procrastinators like me.... and, ah, pensioners with nowt to do?

I am determined to start work at 4, tho.

4

Yes, 4. Definitely.

4

ah, pensioners with nowt to do?
I'm so busy these days I wonder I had the time to go to work.

Actually that's not true. I've slowed down a bit lately. However I've spent the past couple of hours determining which Summer Sundays I'm prepared to devote to assisting with our local Museum.

Cyclefree said:

Tusk is right, though, however tactless he may have been in spelling it out.

It is embarrassing watching May turn up to "negotiate" something she agreed to a few weeks ago when any likely result of such "negotiations" will be another defeat in Parliament.

The Leavers have had no realistic or realisable plan.

I was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, if they had a plan.

But they don't. And are now blaming everyone else for their own failure.

That I cannot forgive.

The result will almost certainly be a disastrously chaotic exit with who knows what economic, political and social consequences, long-term damage to Britain's reputation as a stable, competent polity, harm to other European countries, a Corbyn government and the likely destruction of the Tory party (which is a shame for those decent Tories - both MPs and voters - out there, if not for anyone else).

And all this despite having two options which would help us climb out of this mess - revocation of Article 50 or a further referendum to decide what we want to do now, in light of the facts as they are now, in the real world, not what people thought prior to 23 June 2016, let alone the facts inside some peoples' heads.

When you're drowning in an icy lake you take the stick proffered to you, no matter how covered in shit it may be.

+1

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Beverley_C said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

murali_s said:

Donald Tusk = Spot on!

Brexiteers = Xenophobes / little Englanders / thickos (all three cohorts share one thing - no plan worth the paper it's written on).

"Nothing has changed" - we are still heading for a calamitous Tory hard Brexit. Strap yourselves in suckers!

And you think those comments add to the debate ?

What debate? This place is like Northern France in WW1 - two trenches hurling ammo at each other, no movement. Just pointless skirmish after pointless skirmsh...

And it needs dialling down

And no - it does not compare with the death and destruction of WW1

The consequences of Hard Brexit, even assuming the pessimists turn out to be right, don't even bear comparison with the Seventies, let alone the Somme. People are getting hysterical over this thing, and I'm sure it's no good for their blood pressure.

RobD said:

Chris said:

SunnyJim said:

I'm starting to believe that a GE is May's 'best' route through this impasse...


She can't revoke - political suicide.

A50 extensions serve little purpose other than as a staging post to R2 or revoke - political suicide.

Ref2 - political suicide.

No Deal - political suicide.


It leaves her with a GE as the only 'out' following the next rejection of her deal.

Can't argue with any of that.

The only snag is:

GE - political suicide.

But it might solve the impasse.

Ref2 is less suicidey than GE. It doesn't come with the risk of a Corbyn government.

(Well, it might if the process either split off the DUP or a chunk of MPs, but the risk is clearly far lower).

Also, a referendum will definitely produce a positive outcome for one result - possibly a weak one but something will still win. In addition, all the legislation for exiting (or remaining in) the EU can be written into the Act authorising the referendum, which can be made binding and trigger the consequences of whatever wins automatically.

On the other hand, a GE is a lot quicker.

Black_Rook said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Beverley_C said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

murali_s said:

Donald Tusk = Spot on!

Brexiteers = Xenophobes / little Englanders / thickos (all three cohorts share one thing - no plan worth the paper it's written on).

"Nothing has changed" - we are still heading for a calamitous Tory hard Brexit. Strap yourselves in suckers!

And you think those comments add to the debate ?

What debate? This place is like Northern France in WW1 - two trenches hurling ammo at each other, no movement. Just pointless skirmish after pointless skirmsh...

And it needs dialling down

And no - it does not compare with the death and destruction of WW1

The consequences of Hard Brexit, even assuming the pessimists turn out to be right, don't even bear comparison with the Seventies, let alone the Somme. People are getting hysterical over this thing, and I'm sure it's no good for their blood pressure.

Is that true (about the 70s)? I seem to recall projections of a 10% GDP drop in one year, which if memory serves is worse than 2007/8 or 1980/81 or anything in the 70s. Happy to be contradicted.

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1093166550205517824?s=21

Dinner from Dante’s Ninth Circle of Hell!

Alasdair said:

Cyclefree said:

Tusk is right, though, however tactless he may have been in spelling it out.

It is embarrassing watching May turn up to "negotiate" something she agreed to a few weeks ago when any likely result of such "negotiations" will be another defeat in Parliament.

The Leavers have had no realistic or realisable plan.

I was prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, if they had a plan.

But they don't. And are now blaming everyone else for their own failure.

That I cannot forgive.

The result will almost certainly be a disastrously chaotic exit with who knows what economic, political and social consequences, long-term damage to Britain's reputation as a stable, competent polity, harm to other European countries, a Corbyn government and the likely destruction of the Tory party (which is a shame for those decent Tories - both MPs and voters - out there, if not for anyone else).

And all this despite having two options which would help us climb out of this mess - revocation of Article 50 or a further referendum to decide what we want to do now, in light of the facts as they are now, in the real world, not what people thought prior to 23 June 2016, let alone the facts inside some peoples' heads.

When you're drowning in an icy lake you take the stick proffered to you, no matter how covered in shit it may be.

+1

I dare say we now have an Alistair, an Alastair and an Alasdair. Thankfully, all three are Remainers.

Welcome.