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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The HealthSec announces that medicines will be prioritised ove

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The HealthSec announces that medicines will be prioritised over food in the event of no deal

No-deal Brexit plans prioritise medicines over food, MPs told https://t.co/1ZNiMb5KqX

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,656
    edited January 2019
    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend
  • Ooh was that a e pluribus unum.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    But I need food more than medicine because I'm healthy, this is an outrage!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    edited January 2019
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    If Mrs May does manage to engineer a final at -the-death binary choice for parliament of her deal or no deal I wonder which way that would go?

    Can you imagine the suspense of that division if it comes to pass. Whole country watching, giant communal screens, the lot. Wow.

    Drama indeed. If we take people at their word, deal should win easily in such a scenario simply because far more claim to be determined to prevent no deal than deal which, despite its humongous defeat and the vast array of complaints, justified and otherwise, that people have with it, is at least palatable in parts to more of them, they are hardly going to be against the totality of it when, after all, the EU itself says it is a reasonable deal (notwithstanding that is evidence of its terribleness for some).

    Not quite sure how May would engineer it to be literally one of those two choices though.
    No. Very hard tô see how May could engineer this - MPs will suggest Remain or delay as amendments and Bercow will allow them to be put. And delay would probably win.
    I'm half convinced that really was May's only plan, that she was blindsided by the A50 case decision making revocation so much easier a prospect (previously it could not be certain to work even if we wanted to go down that route), and has simply never come up with another stratagem.
    Possibly. Though I think May's plan, Inasmuch as there was one, was to call an election, win a big majority and then force her version of Brexit on everyone else. And she has not changed it one iota since the election - she seems unable to grasp the simply repeating that she is right and the deal is a good one is not going to convince many people.
    Such a good one that she is now whipping an amendment to change it...
    An amendment to tell herself to try to change it more like? May has said it cannot be, and I believe her.

    Hey, it is almost, but not quite, progress, in that she does clearly understand that the deal, whatever its merits, is dead as it stands.

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,403
    D e b a r c l e
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    If Mrs May does manage to engineer a final at -the-death binary choice for parliament of her deal or no deal I wonder which way that would go?

    Can you imagine the suspense of that division if it comes to pass. Whole country watching, giant communal screens, the lot. Wow.

    Drama indeed. If we take people at their word, deal should win easily in such a scenario simply because far more claim to be determined to prevent no deal than deal which, despite its humongous defeat and the vast array of complaints, justified and otherwise, that people have with it, is at least palatable in parts to more of them, they are hardly going to be against the totality of it when, after all, the EU itself says it is a reasonable deal (notwithstanding that is evidence of its terribleness for some).

    Not quite sure how May would engineer it to be literally one of those two choices though.
    No. Very hard tô see how May could engineer this - MPs will suggest Remain or delay as amendments and Bercow will allow them to be put. And delay would probably win.
    I'm half convinced that really was May's only plan, that she was blindsided by the A50 case decision making revocation so much easier a prospect (previously it could not be certain to work even if we wanted to go down that route), and has simply never come up with another stratagem.
    Possibly. Though I think May's plan, Inasmuch as there was one, was to call an election, win a big majority and then force her version of Brexit on everyone else. And she has not changed it one iota since the election - she seems unable to grasp the simply repeating that she is right and the deal is a good one is not going to convince many people.
    Such a good one that she is now whipping an amendment to change it...
    An amendment to tell herself to try to change it more like?

    Hey, it is almost, but not quite, progress, in that she does clearly understand that the deal, whatever its merits, is dead as it stands.

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,469
    Evening all :)

    Extraordinary new levels of "Project Fear" now coming from food retailers. The ever-cynical Mrs Stodge is of the view people will panic buy and be gouged by the supermarket chains who will use the opportunity to rake in the profits.

    She noted the Tesco announcement on job cuts today.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1089997071669751818
    That's Cooper' amendment's passed then, isn't it? Making May's plans immaterial?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,403
    Timing is everything. Ouch.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Jonathan said:

    D e b a r c l e

    ITYM “D e b â c l e”

    Oh wait, that’s French!
  • Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.

    There's shy Remainers because of stuff like this from Leavers

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1089622973168922626
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    Scott_P said:
    Fair point, except so many think we need to listen to the non expect people in a second vote, and they'll be right this time? Either we listen to the people or we don't, and if you do and you think the view has changed fine, but can one denigrate the view of the non expert will also wanting to seek that non expert opinion?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 41,136

    Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.

    There's shy Remainers because of stuff like this from Leavers

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1089622973168922626
    And they say that about the people voting to *deliver* Brexit...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,244
    If I don't get one of my medicines I have to surrender my driving licence.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.

    There's shy Remainers because of stuff like this from Leavers

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1089622973168922626
    And so the revolution eats itself.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
  • Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.

    There's shy Remainers because of stuff like this from Leavers

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1089622973168922626
    And they say that about the people voting to *deliver* Brexit...
    Indeed.

    Having seen the Yellow Jackets in Manchester on Saturday life is not good to be a Remainer or a person of colour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.

    There's shy Remainers because of stuff like this from Leavers

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1089622973168922626
    And they say that about the people voting to *deliver* Brexit...
    I do wonder if they regard deal supporters as worse than remainers - after all, the latter are at least open quislings.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,786
    Inside Europe: Ten Years of Turmoil on BBC2 now giving an insight into the backstop to the referendum, with interviews with Juncker, Tusk, Hollande etc
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    kle4 said:

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    kle4 said:

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    :smiley: 👏
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    Or else they shop at Tesco and Morrisons which as far as I know didn't sign the letter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    _Anazina_ said:

    kle4 said:

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    kle4 said:

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    :smiley: 👏
    *cough*
  • kle4 said:

    But I need food more than medicine because I'm healthy, this is an outrage!

    Tbf once the malnourishment kicks in, you will need the medicine.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    It sounded pathetic then, and it ain't got any better a few hours later.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,403
    Cameron really screwed up.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 18,986
    kle4 said:

    But I need food more than medicine because I'm healthy, this is an outrage!

    A spoonful of sugar will help the 3medicine go down
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,106

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,032
    kle4 said:

    Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.

    There's shy Remainers because of stuff like this from Leavers

    https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/1089622973168922626
    And so the revolution eats itself.
    To be fair, there won't be much else to eat.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited January 2019
    FPT:

    This is going swimmingly:

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/3vq4kkd53t/5News_BrexitMentalHealth_190118_w.pdf

    By 24:44 people think Brexit will make life worse, by 32:3 they think it has already made life worse. Not a single Remain voter from 2016 feels happy about Brexit.

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,033
    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    https://twitter.com/Hippychick3000/status/1089956903768244225
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    edited January 2019

    kle4 said:

    But I need food more than medicine because I'm healthy, this is an outrage!

    Tbf once the malnourishment kicks in, you will need the medicine.
    I shouldn't have lost all that weight last year, I needed those fat reserves to burn. That's on me for thinking after much noise and fury something broadly acceptable would be agreed.
  • HYUFD said:

    Inside Europe: Ten Years of Turmoil on BBC2 now giving an insight into the backstop to the referendum, with interviews with Juncker, Tusk, Hollande etc

    It's brilliant.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    “The more there’s panic over no deal the more individual MPs will focus on how they cast their votes“

    Isn’t May’s project fear making some angry at another project fear, whilst demonising all forms of brexit to some degree?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Jonathan said:

    D e b a r c l e

    Your spelling certainly is.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,106
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1089997071669751818
    That's Cooper' amendment's passed then, isn't it? Making May's plans immaterial?

    Quite. The trick is to stop Brexit, while passing the buck.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    We saw what happened with KFC. It will be pandemonium, but the public seem unable to anticipate this happening. If this is allowed to happen the panic and anger will be swift and strong.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1089997071669751818
    That's Cooper' amendment's passed then, isn't it? Making May's plans immaterial?

    Quite. The trick is to stop Brexit, while passing the buck.
    If MPs want to do that then they need to face the music.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    In my view, we are heading to no deal.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,032
    matt said:

    Jonathan said:

    D e b a r c l e

    Your spelling certainly is.
    As any fule kno, it's spelt c l u s t e r f * * k.
  • Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1089997071669751818
    That's Cooper' amendment's passed then, isn't it? Making May's plans immaterial?

    Not necessarily - there's quite a few Labour MPs (Caroline Flint being one) who have said they won't be voting for it, and all the Tory MPs who spent weeks talking about how they were committed to avoiding No Deal are (predictably) bottling out of actually following through when it matters.

    But it will be amusing to see the mental gymnastics Southam Observer goes through to blame Corbyn for No Deal when he's the one who voted to prevent it happening, but the House of Commons as a whole said otherwise.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,033
    nielh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    In my view, we are heading to no deal.
    Laugh or cry - flip a coin.

    Thank God for the competence of our lawmakers! 2 months from B-day and everything is sorted. Oh, wait...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    FPT, those yougov numbers aren’t impressive but I suspect the total numbers of those who think it isn’t going well/won’t make their lives better are made up of people who believe that for very different reasons.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    They all want someone else to do the dirty work of stopping/passing Brexit so that they can benefit from the backlash to whatever happens. But they're not in politics to win elections - they're there to make a difference, and what bigger difference can they make but on Brexit?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    kle4 said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    kle4 said:

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    kle4 said:

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    :smiley: 👏
    *cough*
    An all to rare genuine LOL on PB. Bravo sir!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    I certainly know who I’m going to be blaming for no Brexit, if that’s what transpires.

    I won’t deliver a leaflet ever again for any of the ERG responsible.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 31,106

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    It sounded pathetic then, and it ain't got any better a few hours later.
    Dadge said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    https://twitter.com/Hippychick3000/status/1089956903768244225
    😆
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    They all want someone else to do the dirty work of stopping/passing Brexit so that they can benefit from the backlash to whatever happens. But they're not in politics to win elections - they're there to make a difference, and what bigger difference can they make but on Brexit?
    In fairness there are more of them taking stands of some kind against their parties on this, for and against Brexit, then on most issues. But with May paralysed and Corbyn with a fencepole to straddle, the rest need to not only get creative, as several have, they need to be even bolder to force the hands of their useless leaderships. Cooper seems to be winning that game at present.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,897

    If I don't get one of my medicines I have to surrender my driving licence.

    That's OK Mike - there won't be any petrol either.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 2,689
    Dadge said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    https://twitter.com/Hippychick3000/status/1089956903768244225
    No lettuce will make the Big Macs less interesting though.
  • Jonathan said:

    Cameron really screwed up.

    Amazing now to think of the years & years of the PB Tories defending every particle of his being (I seem to recall at one point Plato (RIP) said she'd marry him in a flash). Fair play to those still loyal.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    It sounded pathetic then, and it ain't got any better a few hours later.

    An apple a day keeps the doctor away!
  • _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    It sounded pathetic then, and it ain't got any better a few hours later.
    Dadge said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    https://twitter.com/Hippychick3000/status/1089956903768244225
    😆
    Tossers on Twitter don't count.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 102,656
    edited January 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Cameron really screwed up.

    Amazing now to think of the years & years of the PB Tories defending every particle of his being (I seem to recall at one point Plato (RIP) said she'd marry him in a flash). Fair play to those still loyal.
    I'm still loyal.

    When I was told he was about to resign, it still feels like a kick in the gonads.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,367
    _Anazina_ said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    It sounded pathetic then, and it ain't got any better a few hours later.

    An apple a day keeps the doctor away!
    Oi!, I have to make a living!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1089997071669751818
    That's Cooper' amendment's passed then, isn't it? Making May's plans immaterial?

    Not necessarily - there's quite a few Labour MPs (Caroline Flint being one) who have said they won't be voting for it, and all the Tory MPs who spent weeks talking about how they were committed to avoiding No Deal are (predictably) bottling out of actually following through when it matters.

    But it will be amusing to see the mental gymnastics Southam Observer goes through to blame Corbyn for No Deal when he's the one who voted to prevent it happening, but the House of Commons as a whole said otherwise.
    Also, to add to this: even if Cooper's amendment passes, May's efforts wouldn't be immaterial, would they? I thought it was that A50 gets extended if there's no deal ratified by the end of Feb - so, if by some miracle May does manage to magically renegotiate her deal and MPs vote it through, then Cooper's amendment becomes obsolete.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,403

    Jonathan said:

    Cameron really screwed up.

    Amazing now to think of the years & years of the PB Tories defending every particle of his being (I seem to recall at one point Plato (RIP) said she'd marry him in a flash). Fair play to those still loyal.
    I'm still loyal.

    When I was told he was about to resign, it still feels like a kick in the gonads.
    He was a fool and incompetent. Believed his own hype. Should have listened to Osborne.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,367

    If I don't get one of my medicines I have to surrender my driving licence.

    That's OK Mike - there won't be any petrol either.
    Or cars...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,851
    edited January 2019
    The Labour leadership has blinked twice in less than 12 hours - on the Immigration bill and on the Cooper amendment. That is highly significant and indicates it is not as secure as many of us had asdumed.
  • I thought Cameron was supposed to be good at this politics shit?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
    They wore me down in the end too. I still don't see many good arguments on the remain or second vote sides, but the shambles on the other side have overcome that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031

    Jonathan said:

    Cameron really screwed up.

    Amazing now to think of the years & years of the PB Tories defending every particle of his being (I seem to recall at one point Plato (RIP) said she'd marry him in a flash). Fair play to those still loyal.
    I'm still loyal.

    When I was told he was about to resign, it still feels like a kick in the gonads.
    Me too. I always had a personal and political empathy with Cameron, and still do.

    I was just very disappointed he didn’t follow through on his European policy.
  • I thought Cameron was supposed to be good at this politics shit?

    He is, but like Julius Caesar, he was betrayed by those loyal to him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1089997071669751818
    That's Cooper' amendment's passed then, isn't it? Making May's plans immaterial?

    Not necessarily - there's quite a few Labour MPs (Caroline Flint being one) who have said they won't be voting for it, and all the Tory MPs who spent weeks talking about how they were committed to avoiding No Deal are (predictably) bottling out of actually following through when it matters.

    But it will be amusing to see the mental gymnastics Southam Observer goes through to blame Corbyn for No Deal when he's the one who voted to prevent it happening, but the House of Commons as a whole said otherwise.
    Also, to add to this: even if Cooper's amendment passes, May's efforts wouldn't be immaterial, would they? I thought it was that A50 gets extended if there's no deal ratified by the end of Feb - so, if by some miracle May does manage to magically renegotiate her deal and MPs vote it through, then Cooper's amendment becomes obsolete.
    Well sure, but as you suggest that seems like it needs magic to happen. Ok, maybe, maybe some of the ERG finally toe the line as they see the delay as remain by any other name and accept the deal, negotiated or otherwise, as their only hope (but they've been remarkably steadfast to date), but what about the second vote supporters, the norway backers, etc etc, what reason do they have to see a deal agreed. A delay presumably opens up any number of options again.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Jonathan said:

    Cameron really screwed up.

    Amazing now to think of the years & years of the PB Tories defending every particle of his being (I seem to recall at one point Plato (RIP) said she'd marry him in a flash). Fair play to those still loyal.
    Not being of that grouping, I was never much of a fan of Chameleon. Yet it is striking how, compared to the collection of moondogs, third-rate clowns, quarterwits and genital-heads currently populating the Tory front bench, he seems positively statesmanlike.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
    They wore me down in the end too. I still don't see many good arguments on the remain or second vote sides, but the shambles on the other side have overcome that.
    There is nothing good in Remain. Nothing.

    The EU has learnt zilch from this, and will view any reverse ferret as having successfully made its point. If we stay, we will be sucked into a European army and QMV on European taxes, just with even less influence than we had before and we’ll never taken seriously again in vetoes, votes or discussions on policy.

    I will never vote to Remain or Re-join. Ever. I’m just saying my contempt is now more equally shared.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,930

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    If Mrs May does manage to engineer a final at -the-death binary choice for parliament of her deal or no deal I wonder which way that would go?

    Can you imagine the suspense of that division if it comes to pass. Whole country watching, giant communal screens, the lot. Wow.

    Drama indeed. If we take people at their word, deal should win easily in such a scenario simply because far more claim to be determined to prevent no deal than deal which, despite its humongous defeat and the vast array of complaints, justified and otherwise, that people have with it, is at least palatable in parts to more of them, they are hardly going to be against the totality of it when, after all, the EU itself says it is a reasonable deal (notwithstanding that is evidence of its terribleness for some).

    Not quite sure how May would engineer it to be literally one of those two choices though.
    No. Very hard tô see how May could engineer this - MPs will suggest Remain or delay as amendments and Bercow will allow them to be put. And delay would probably win.
    I'm half convinced that really was May's only plan, that she was blindsided by the A50 case decision making revocation so much easier a prospect (previously it could not be certain to work even if we wanted to go down that route), and has simply never come up with another stratagem.
    Possibly. Though I think May's plan, Inasmuch as there was one, was to call an election, win a big majority and then force her version of Brexit on everyone else. And she has not changed it one iota since the election - she seems unable to grasp the simply repeating that she is right and the deal is a good one is not going to convince many people.
    Such a good one that she is now whipping an amendment to change it...
    An amendment to tell herself to try to change it more like?

    Hey, it is almost, but not quite, progress, in that she does clearly understand that the deal, whatever its merits, is dead as it stands.

    It’s also worth noting that YouGov have had to massively weight that poll. Remainers are happy to identify themselves, Leavers, it seems, are much less keen.

    As a lifelong remainer I find it a very curious attitude indeed.
    Leavers prefer not to identify themselves as they prefer not to be called thick selfish racists.
    When the Gods come together to discuss the characteristics that Leavers possess, "reluctance to tell you about it" is rarely mentioned.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Foxy said:

    If I don't get one of my medicines I have to surrender my driving licence.

    That's OK Mike - there won't be any petrol either.
    Or cars...
    We’ll be lucky to have any roads.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,092
    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    I still don't really understand why Labour doesn't simply abstain on the MV, allow the WA deal through, see the DUP turn puce and end the C&S agreement, and back themselves to force an election, win it and put through whatever long-term future arrangement with the EU they see fit.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,930
    nielh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    In my view, we are heading to no deal.
    I'm waiting for the outcome of tomorrow's amendments before I decide.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passiorategic thinking on this.
    They wore me down in the end too. I still don't see many good arguments on the remain or second vote sides, but the shambles on the other side have overcome that.
    There is nothing good in Remain. Nothing.

    The EU has learnt zilch from this, and will view any reverse ferret as having successfully made its point. If we stay, we will be sucked into a European army and QMV on European taxes, just with even less influence than we had before and we’ll never taken seriously again in vetoes, votes or discussions on policy.

    I will never vote to Remain or Re-join. Ever. I’m just saying my contempt is now more equally shared.
    That's fair enough, I'm just a step further down the road than you are, even if you progress no further down it.
    Drutt said:

    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    I still don't really understand why Labour doesn't simply abstain on the MV, allow the WA deal through, see the DUP turn puce and end the C&S agreement, and back themselves to force an election, win it and put through whatever long-term future arrangement with the EU they see fit.
    Fear. It might work, or they might face that rarest of events, a genuine and sudden backlash for having enable Brexit (even though some kind of Brexit was always their policy).

    And in fairness abstaining on the most critical issue of our time is not an easy thing to defend for a party leader.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 22,682

    I thought Cameron was supposed to be good at this politics shit?

    He is, but like Julius Caesar, he was betrayed by those loyal to him.
    Bet if you'd handed Cesar a knife he would have stabbed back though.

    No blue on blue by Cameron was the most craven party before country shit I have seen from a politician.
  • viewcode said:

    nielh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    In my view, we are heading to no deal.
    I'm waiting for the outcome of tomorrow's amendments before I decide.
    I make it a 70/80 per cent chance we leave with No Deal.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
    They can perhaps be split into five groups:

    1) The Death Cult Leavers who don't want any agreement with the EU
    2) The Libertarian Pirate Island Leavers who want their small government fantasy
    3) The posturing arseholes who want to complain but take no responsibility
    4) The ambitious arseholes who think it boosts their career plans
    5) Useful idiots of one or more of the above

    To sum up the Conservative party is not fit for purpose.
  • Drutt said:

    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    I still don't really understand why Labour doesn't simply abstain on the MV, allow the WA deal through, see the DUP turn puce and end the C&S agreement, and back themselves to force an election, win it and put through whatever long-term future arrangement with the EU they see fit.
    Because it would lose them millions of votes in an instant, mean massive resignations from the Party and guarantee they would not only lose the next GE but many more after that.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 18,403

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
    They can perhaps be split into five groups:

    1) The Death Cult Leavers who don't want any agreement with the EU
    2) The Libertarian Pirate Island Leavers who want their small government fantasy
    3) The posturing arseholes who want to complain but take no responsibility
    4) The ambitious arseholes who think it boosts their career plans
    5) Useful idiots of one or more of the above

    To sum up the Conservative party is not fit for purpose.
    5 Boris
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Foxy said:

    If I don't get one of my medicines I have to surrender my driving licence.

    That's OK Mike - there won't be any petrol either.
    Or cars...
    We’ll be lucky to have any roads.
    Roads.....? Luxury!!!
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
    They can perhaps be split into five groups:

    1) The Death Cult Leavers who don't want any agreement with the EU
    2) The Libertarian Pirate Island Leavers who want their small government fantasy
    3) The posturing arseholes who want to complain but take no responsibility
    4) The ambitious arseholes who think it boosts their career plans
    5) Useful idiots of one or more of the above

    To sum up the Conservative party is not fit for purpose.
    Indeed.

    The only thing keeping me in the Tory party is that I'll have a vote in the next leadership election and my vote could help the party return to sanity.

    If I wanted to fuck the economy I would have joined the Labour party.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,754
    Drutt said:

    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    I still don't really understand why Labour doesn't simply abstain on the MV, allow the WA deal through, see the DUP turn puce and end the C&S agreement, and back themselves to force an election, win it and put through whatever long-term future arrangement with the EU they see fit.
    +1 I find it staggering that Labour's leadership haven't cottoned on to this yet.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passiorategic thinking on this.
    They wore me down in the end too. I still don't see many good arguments on the remain or second vote sides, but the shambles on the other side have overcome that.
    There is nothing good in Remain. Nothing.

    The EU has learnt zilch from this, and will view any reverse ferret as having successfully made its point. If we stay, we will be sucked into a European army and QMV on European taxes, just with even less influence than we had before and we’ll never taken seriously again in vetoes, votes or discussions on policy.

    I will never vote to Remain or Re-join. Ever. I’m just saying my contempt is now more equally shared.
    That's fair enough, I'm just a step further down the road than you are, even if you progress no further down it.
    Drutt said:

    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    I
    Fear. It might work, or they might face that rarest of events, a genuine and sudden backlash for having enable Brexit (even though some kind of Brexit was always their policy).

    And in fairness abstaining on the most critical issue of our time is not an easy thing to defend for a party leader.
    Both sides are as obsessed with WWII and as ideologically dogmatic as each other.

    That’s, like, the whole fucking problem here. If it wasn’t, we’d have become an associate member long ago and we could have all got on with our lives.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Scott_P said:
    Good grief. There is no arguing with those numbers. Polls are to be taken with a large pinch of salt. But those are very large gaps.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 11,930

    _Anazina_ said:

    So far the public is depressed but phlegmatic. Will it change if it looks like they won’t be able to get a Big Mac post deal?

    I speculated earlier that as most Leavers don’t eat fruit and vegetables, the warnings earlier today about major greengrocery shortages won’t have spooked them.
    It sounded pathetic then, and it ain't got any better a few hours later.
    That'll be the hearing distortion caused by Vitamin D deficiency. Eat more cheese... :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937
    edited January 2019

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    We exit in March, that's the law.

    If you look at the rhetoric coming from some Leavers, similar to that which Thomas Mair used, you can understand why some MPs won't revoke Article 50.
    Laws are malleable.

    First, kick the can down the road, then say it's all too difficult.
    The funny thing is I haven’t been convinced by a single argument of the EUphiles or passionate ultra-Remainers. Not once.

    The only ones who’ve made me question the wisdom of my original decision have been the absolute idiots on my own side.

    I assumed they’d all pragmatically coalesce around an acceptable compromise that put Britain on a different future political path but, unlike Gove, Geoffrey Cox and a small number of others, they seem incapable of any rational or strategic thinking on this.
    They can perhaps be split into five groups:

    1) The Death Cult Leavers who don't want any agreement with the EU
    2) The Libertarian Pirate Island Leavers who want their small government fantasy
    3) The posturing arseholes who want to complain but take no responsibility
    4) The ambitious arseholes who think it boosts their career plans
    5) Useful idiots of one or more of the above

    To sum up the Conservative party is not fit for purpose.
    The only thing keeping me in the Tory party is that I'll have a vote in the next leadership election and my vote could help the party return to sanity.
    Being rather optimistic that one of the options you will be presented with will be a sane one.

    Edit: Seems like the best case scenario is an utterly fanatical no dealer or completely unprincipled person like Boris vs a cowardfly slippery snake like, say, Hunt.
  • viewcode said:

    nielh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    In my view, we are heading to no deal.
    I'm waiting for the outcome of tomorrow's amendments before I decide.
    I make it a 70/80 per cent chance we leave with No Deal.
    Out of interest have you got big money on No Deal ?

    Its very good odds if you think its a 75% chance and likely a useful financial hedge.
  • kle4 said:

    Being rather optimistic that one of the options you will be presented with will be a sane one.

    Am on team Rory.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 76,937

    kle4 said:

    Being rather optimistic that one of the options you will be presented with will be a sane one.

    Am on team Rory.
    The man who doesn't even get a promotion to Cabinet when he's about the only one out there arguing for the deal with the same energy and fervour as the PM?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031
    Au contraire, I consider Michael Gove a hero.

    And he saved us from Boris months before lots of people had worked out what he’s really like.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Scott_P said:
    Good grief. There is no arguing with those numbers. Polls are to be taken with a large pinch of salt. But those are very large gaps.
    But it is 45 stay - 40 leave
  • viewcode said:

    nielh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Meds and food should be prioritised for Remainers.

    Leavers can go whistle, this shall be their Brexit dividend

    You need not worry. The brainlessness of the ERG makes it very likely that Brexit won't happen
    In my view, we are heading to no deal.
    I'm waiting for the outcome of tomorrow's amendments before I decide.
    I make it a 70/80 per cent chance we leave with No Deal.
    Out of interest have you got big money on No Deal ?

    Its very good odds if you think its a 75% chance and likely a useful financial hedge.
    A fair bit.

    We have fewer than 60 days, and even fewer Parliamentary sitting days to repeal/amend the EU Withdrawal Act which mandates our exit in March.

    We've simply run out of time.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 46,031

    Drutt said:

    kle4 said:

    I can't make any sense of those poll results and the reluctance of politicians to kill off the Brexit madness. Why are we doing this to ourselves?

    MPs clearly want to stop it. They have the power to stop it. But not enough for enough of them to go against the party line or to risk ending their careers.
    I still don't really understand why Labour doesn't simply abstain on the MV, allow the WA deal through, see the DUP turn puce and end the C&S agreement, and back themselves to force an election, win it and put through whatever long-term future arrangement with the EU they see fit.
    +1 I find it staggering that Labour's leadership haven't cottoned on to this yet.
    It’s the obvious move.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 21,754
    kle4 said:

    But I need food more than medicine because I'm healthy, this is an outrage!

    Is it enough to make you sick?
This discussion has been closed.