politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whatever you think of Bercow it is right that the executive ha
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whatever you think of Bercow it is right that the executive has less control over proceedings of the elected House
Like many I’ve often been irritated by John Bercow particularly at the lengthy interjections he likes to make at PMQs which can appear like grandstanding.
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First like Nays tonight.0
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2nd like Berko.
Typo: Kowtow. I think cow-tow is to do with stuck-in-the-mud tractors ;-)
Thanks for the leader, Mike. Personally I think Bercow should have followed a more sensible policy on bosses credibly accused of bullying; he brings the whole place into disrepute. He should have been suspended as happens to normal abusive bosses whilst being investigated.
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Agree with this, we're seeing some quite unorthodox moves, but it's in response to a very unorthodox situation where by creating a delay for an obviously-bogus negotiation then trying to run down the clock, the Prime Minister is attempting a Denial of Service attack on her own parliament.0
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Fourth and falling, like Boris.0
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The way the government is trying to ignore its lack of support in Parliament and manipulate and sideline MPs is disgraceful. Bercow needs to make sure he is doing things in the right way, but there is no doubt that he is doing the right things,0
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OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
Next, you're going to make some crazy ridiculous allegation that she doesn't have as much "charisma" as Obama...edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
I feel like the laughing has this slightly sinister edge, but maybe that's just the background of hearing about her keeping an innocent man in prison because his attourneys missed a deadline.rcs1000 said:
Next, you're going to make some crazy ridiculous allegation that she doesn't have as much "charisma" as Obama...0 -
I rather liked it, she just ticked the "relatable" box for me. (a test Mrs Clinton always failed)rcs1000 said:
Next, you're going to make some crazy ridiculous allegation that she doesn't have as much "charisma" as Obama...edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1085009675744145408
I don't mind the 4.2 for the 2020 nomination, if they want to win, it's her or Joe; she has generational change on her side. I'm going to have a bit of that.0 -
I think BREXIT has fundamentally shifted the relationship between NO10 and the house of Commons in ways that we are only starting to see now. An invigorated speaker is perhaps no bad thing in British democracy and Bercow may be a marmite speaker but he has reinvigorated the role at a time when PMs have sought to bypass Parliament. The FTPA legacy has also had a hand, but like the BREXIT once Pandora's box has been opened.....I cant applaud the May approach to BREXIT but she has inadvertently given Parliamentary power a boost in ways that we are only starting to understand.0
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I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
The selection was obviously carefully curated so, au moins, she is being well advised.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1085009675744145408
Can you imagine May doing this? She'd probably pick the theme tune from the Antiques Roadshow for every category and then later lie about it.0 -
Trump -12% net approval .....
.....with Rasmussen.
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I'm sure the Burger Banquet will sort that out.Andrew said:Trump -12% net approval .....
.....with Rasmussen.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/14/donald-trump-orders-fast-food-white-house-clemson-football0 -
Thread Leader :
Bedford Behemoth Bolsters Bercow Brilliantly.
No cheques thanks Mike ...
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Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
He's obviously right about the gap between the 1975 and 2016 referendums being a motivating factor. Not only were people told at the time that the vote would be definitive, they had no reason to suppose that there would be another one this side of 2050, based on historical precedent - or, indeed, ever again, given the rate of progress of European integration.williamglenn said:
I distinctly remember someone at work telling me why he voted Leave immediately after the referendum was held: "If we'd voted to stay in, we'd have been in the Euro within ten years, and our Parliament would've been abolished within twenty." For the record, the person concerned was a typical, non-politically active voter in his thirties. Not a Tory, or a bigot, or a 'gammon,' or 'low-information,' or any of the other silly little stereotypical groups into which some people have been trying to force half the electorate for the past two-an-a-half years.
Given what we've seen since - that most MPs appear not to want to leave the EU, and a great many say as much explicitly, that they worry acutely about loss of influence if not engaged with its projects, and that further integration appears to be the only long-term solution to resolving the problems of the Euro - I don't think that these were wholly unreasonable concerns to harbour. Certainly, if we do end up staying in the EU at the end of all of this then I don't think it'll be too many more years before a lot of politicians start pointing to the Eurocore and saying 'That's where all the decisions are being made now, if we want our say we have to join.'
As for some great expansion in the use of direct democracy, that would be a grave error. There's no point in having referendums over anything contentious, because the risk is that Parliament will simply overturn any result that it can't live with, with corrosive consequences. The campaigns themselves are divisive and nasty. They also involve elected representatives - whose job it is to spend all their working days analysing and finding solutions to difficult political problems - palming their work off on voters who receive neither the time not the recompense to be poring over international treaties, criminal sentencing policy, macroeconomics and God alone knows what else every five minutes.
One can advance a cogent argument for root-and-branch reform of the political system, but I don't think that a constant diet of referendums is the way forward. Letting well-paid politicians sit on their fat arses whilst we make all the hard choices for them really isn't on.0 -
Well, there's KLOBUCHARIanB2 said:
Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
FPT - on why MPs are behaving like this, on both sides: it’s because both sides have retreated into their bubbles.
May’s total lack of collegiality and communication certainly created an exclusion vacuum and, over the last two years, both sides have huddled in their comfort groups and tacked to the extremes.
Social media has a big part to play in this, as it filters through the shriller views of those you already agree with, but it doesn’t really explain the density and ignorance of ex-ministers who were supposedly at the heart of Government.0 -
I don't get this argument that the government should have decided exactly what it wanted with the agreement of parliament before entering in to negotiations.
For the vast majority of MP's there is/was no deal, short of remaining, that would satisfy them so there would never have been a consensus.
And even if we believe in the political fairies for a moment and parliament had agreed a shopping list to take to the EU what would have happened when the inevitable push back from Barnier meant the desired deal couldn't be accommodated?
It's a frankly ludicrous idea and one that is in no way grounded in the reality of the situation.0 -
Kamala Harris comes across with a pleasant personality, which is a big change from Trump of course. People might vote for her for that reason alone. She is very liberal though for mainstream American politics.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
Mr Rook quoted a colleague as saying '"If we'd voted to stay in, our Parliament would've been abolished within twenty (years)'" For the record, the person concerned was a typical, non-politically active voter in his thirties. '
I genuinely cannot understand why anyone who took the trouble to read anything more about the EU than the headlines in the Mail or the Sun, can say this, any more, quite frankly, than I can understand someone saying that the earth is flat.
I've no problem with our Parliament being reformed within twenty years, but since every other EU member has some similar sort of representative democratic body, why on earth shouldn't we have.
What this comment does demonstrate is the failure of those of us who believe in the European project to communicate our optimism to our neighbours.0 -
Like Brexit itself...SunnyJim said:
It's a frankly ludicrous idea and one that is in no way grounded in the reality of the situation.0 -
Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....0
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12 hours to save Tezzie!
An honourable PM would resign in time for the 10 o'clock news.0 -
No SPIN market up unless I’m missing it. In Dec there was a spread on votes for.0
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Yes please, because I am on business in Dubai and this is all looks to be playing out well beyond bedtime.SandyRentool said:12 hours to save Tezzie!
An honourable PM would resign in time for the 10 o'clock news.0 -
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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Like most things in life there is a balance to be had here. On the one hand we have elections to elect a government and we expect that government to be able to act and deliver its manifesto. That requires governments to have some control of proceedings in the House, to be able to push through bills, to negotiate treaties, to make executive decisions and to determine where our money is spent.
OTOH if we are to avoid an elected dictatorship there must be opportunities for the opposition to be heard, to make the alternative case and, most importantly, to hold the government of the day to account. It is the only way of keeping the incompetence within normal bounds.
Since becoming PM May has treated Parliament with contempt. She has not engaged opposition day motions simply ignoring the results. She has tried to hide what she is doing in the Brexit negotiations from her own cabinet and DexEU Secretaries, let alone the Commons. She has not led. She has made no attempt to persuade or to build a consensus for the best part of 2 years. When she realised, finally, that she had to make her case the contempt continued seeking to use procedure to limit the scope of debate and options.
It is right that Bercow, any Speaker, should kick back against that. She has diminished Parliament and tried to make it less relevant. Tonight, finally, she will pay the price for that contempt. If she is still PM tomorrow it will be in a caretaker capacity. Her premiership will be amongst the most lamentable of modern times.
Did Bercow respond in the right way? Probably not. But 21 days for another go and due consideration would have been reasonable if the MV had been in December. In mid to late January 3 days may have to do. Too bad.0 -
81% of votes went to parties with a manifesto that promised to enact Brexit.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
People are entitled to feel let down and lied to if they don't0 -
Indeed.asjohnstone said:
81% of votes went to parties with a manifesto that promised to enact Brexit.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
People are entitled to feel let down and lied to if they don't0 -
I'm guessing you haven't read the 538 analysis that says sell Biden, Sanders and Klobuchar? (And buy Harris, O'Rourke and Booker?)edmundintokyo said:
Well, there's KLOBUCHARIanB2 said:
Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
The House of Commons' electoral mandate is chronologically superior to the referendum. And this House of Commons was the answer to a very specific question. May couldn't have been clearer about why she called an early General Election and what she wanted. Voters said No. That Theresa May and the Conservatives have no *sole* electoral mandate for a specific form of Brexit is as democratic a fact as the Leave victory itself.RoyalBlue said:
Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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Sounds like a confectionary bar name fail.edmundintokyo said:
Well, there's KLOBUCHARIanB2 said:
Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1085009675744145408
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Out of curiosity, was that the logic for the Yellows bringing in tuition fees despite their infamous pledge? That 566 seats went to parties promising to implement the inane proposals of a self-confessed perjurer?Yellow_Submarine said:
The House of Commons' electoral mandate is chronologically superior to the referendum. And this House of Commons was the answer to a very specific question. May couldn't have been clearer about why she called an early General Election and what she wanted. Voters said No. That Theresa May and the Conservatives have no *sole* electoral mandate for a specific form of Brexit is as democratic a fact as the Leave victory itself.RoyalBlue said:
Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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Greetings from Sydney! Thought I’d get away from it all. Not a bit of it - Brexit and the likely outcome of the meaningful vote led the 6 o’clock news....0
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Dura_Ace said:
The selection was obviously carefully curated so, au moins, she is being well advised.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1085009675744145408
Can you imagine May doing this? She'd probably pick the theme tune from the Antiques Roadshow for every category and then later lie about it.
Haven’t listened ... is Kamala Chameleon in there ?0 -
The 3 days means that come Monday next week we should be in the same position we would have been in if the vote had been in December.DavidL said:Like most things in life there is a balance to be had here. On the one hand we have elections to elect a government and we expect that government to be able to act and deliver its manifesto. That requires governments to have some control of proceedings in the House, to be able to push through bills, to negotiate treaties, to make executive decisions and to determine where our money is spent.
OTOH if we are to avoid an elected dictatorship there must be opportunities for the opposition to be heard, to make the alternative case and, most importantly, to hold the government of the day to account. It is the only way of keeping the incompetence within normal bounds.
Since becoming PM May has treated Parliament with contempt. She has not engaged opposition day motions simply ignoring the results. She has tried to hide what she is doing in the Brexit negotiations from her own cabinet and DexEU Secretaries, let alone the Commons. She has not led. She has made no attempt to persuade or to build a consensus for the best part of 2 years. When she realised, finally, that she had to make her case the contempt continued seeking to use procedure to limit the scope of debate and options.
It is right that Bercow, any Speaker, should kick back against that. She has diminished Parliament and tried to make it less relevant. Tonight, finally, she will pay the price for that contempt. If she is still PM tomorrow it will be in a caretaker capacity. Her premiership will be amongst the most lamentable of modern times.
Did Bercow respond in the right way? Probably not. But 21 days for another go and due consideration would have been reasonable if the MV had been in December. In mid to late January 3 days may have to do. Too bad.0 -
This is interesting:
http://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085078079511453699
This moves it on from “we don’t like Theresa May’s Brexit deal” to “we don’t like Theresa May and all her works”. It’s almost vindictive... even though I fully agree with the proposal.0 -
Every reaction....El_Capitano said:This is interesting:
http://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085078079511453699
This moves it on from “we don’t like Theresa May’s Brexit deal” to “we don’t like Theresa May and all her works”. It’s almost vindictive... even though I fully agree with the proposal.0 -
When you have the rather particular situation of a minority government attempting to effectively shut down th House for weeks at a time to avoid action on the most pressing issue of the day, I can’t find that Bercow has done much wrong in trying to facilitate parliament asserting its sovereignty.DavidL said:Like most things in life there is a balance to be had here. On the one hand we have elections to elect a government and we expect that government to be able to act and deliver its manifesto. That requires governments to have some control of proceedings in the House, to be able to push through bills, to negotiate treaties, to make executive decisions and to determine where our money is spent.
OTOH if we are to avoid an elected dictatorship there must be opportunities for the opposition to be heard, to make the alternative case and, most importantly, to hold the government of the day to account. It is the only way of keeping the incompetence within normal bounds.
Since becoming PM May has treated Parliament with contempt. She has not engaged opposition day motions simply ignoring the results. She has tried to hide what she is doing in the Brexit negotiations from her own cabinet and DexEU Secretaries, let alone the Commons. She has not led. She has made no attempt to persuade or to build a consensus for the best part of 2 years. When she realised, finally, that she had to make her case the contempt continued seeking to use procedure to limit the scope of debate and options.
It is right that Bercow, any Speaker, should kick back against that. She has diminished Parliament and tried to make it less relevant. Tonight, finally, she will pay the price for that contempt. If she is still PM tomorrow it will be in a caretaker capacity. Her premiership will be amongst the most lamentable of modern times.
Did Bercow respond in the right way? Probably not. But 21 days for another go and due consideration would have been reasonable if the MV had been in December. In mid to late January 3 days may have to do. Too bad.
The way it has unfolded isn’t ideal, but it has either to be done in haste, or not at all.
The constitutional innovations should have few repercussions for a government with a stable majority - and given the existence of the FTPA, it seems right that there be some brake on the executive excercising its extra-parliamentary powers during a period of minority government.
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Because (minor parties aside) they said they would implement Brexit.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
317 Conservative MPs.
262 Labour MPs
10 DUP MPs
589 out of 650. Elected on manifestos pledging to implement Brexit. No ifs, no buts. Brexit.
And they somehow have got themselves into a groupthink that voters won't wreak a horrible revenge at the next election.....0 -
Malcolm Turnbull nailed it (or rather William Dalrymple did).CarlottaVance said:Greetings from Sydney! Thought I’d get away from it all. Not a bit of it - Brexit and the likely outcome of the meaningful vote led the 6 o’clock news....
https://twitter.com/turnbullmalcolm/status/1084915377505677317?s=210 -
I don't understand your question.ydoethur said:
Out of curiosity, was that the logic for the Yellows bringing in tuition fees despite their infamous pledge? That 566 seats went to parties promising to implement the inane proposals of a self-confessed perjurer?Yellow_Submarine said:
The House of Commons' electoral mandate is chronologically superior to the referendum. And this House of Commons was the answer to a very specific question. May couldn't have been clearer about why she called an early General Election and what she wanted. Voters said No. That Theresa May and the Conservatives have no *sole* electoral mandate for a specific form of Brexit is as democratic a fact as the Leave victory itself.RoyalBlue said:
Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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What songs did she pick?edmundintokyo said:
Well, there's KLOBUCHARIanB2 said:
Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
This one?rcs1000 said:
I'm guessing you haven't read the 538 analysis that says sell Biden, Sanders and Klobuchar? (And buy Harris, O'Rourke and Booker?)edmundintokyo said:
Well, there's KLOBUCHARIanB2 said:
Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1085009675744145408
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-kamala-and-beto-have-more-upside-than-joe-and-bernie/
I have, although it doesn't consider the "Do they sound like a dyslexic person named a chocolate bar" angle.0 -
Well, you said that the Tories having lost their majority had no mandate for 'their' form of Brexit. Fair enough, I agree with that.Yellow_Submarine said:
I don't understand your question.ydoethur said:
Out of curiosity, was that the logic for the Yellows bringing in tuition fees despite their infamous pledge? That 566 seats went to parties promising to implement the inane proposals of a self-confessed perjurer?Yellow_Submarine said:
The House of Commons' electoral mandate is chronologically superior to the referendum. And this House of Commons was the answer to a very specific question. May couldn't have been clearer about why she called an early General Election and what she wanted. Voters said No. That Theresa May and the Conservatives have no *sole* electoral mandate for a specific form of Brexit is as democratic a fact as the Leave victory itself.RoyalBlue said:
Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
It just seems quite a leap of logic from that to revoke, which is what the majority of the Commons is clearly trying to do.
I was wondering if the Lib Dems coming third and losing a number of seats could be taken as a similar sign that democratically they were correct to abandon the tuition fees pledge.
Of course, the consequences were unfortunate...0 -
The power to detain was created in the 1971 Immigration Act but the numbers of people being held began to rise substantially under Tony Blair’s Labour government.El_Capitano said:This is interesting:
http://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085078079511453699
This moves it on from “we don’t like Theresa May’s Brexit deal” to “we don’t like Theresa May and all her works”. It’s almost vindictive... even though I fully agree with the proposal.0 -
This came home to me most bitterly in November, when I saw Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron arm in arm on Remembrance Day. They both braved the wind and rain, in a way that President Trump refused to do, to remember all our dead, and to learn the lesson that we must all come together to make sure it never happens again. I understood then the scale of what had been achieved in the last 60 years by a continent which had torn itself apart so often, and I realised then, my fellow Europeans, more clearly than ever who our real friends are – and the bleak, utter foolishness of separating ourselves from them.TheScreamingEagles said:
Malcolm Turnbull nailed it (or rather William Dalrymple did).CarlottaVance said:Greetings from Sydney! Thought I’d get away from it all. Not a bit of it - Brexit and the likely outcome of the meaningful vote led the 6 o’clock news....
https://twitter.com/turnbullmalcolm/status/1084915377505677317?s=210 -
Very nicely put. When are you going to write some lead articles? Seriously - you're wasted by being only below the line.edmundintokyo said:Agree with this, we're seeing some quite unorthodox moves, but it's in response to a very unorthodox situation where by creating a delay for an obviously-bogus negotiation then trying to run down the clock, the Prime Minister is attempting a Denial of Service attack on her own parliament.
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Well, we have a number of others who are wasted when they post below the line. SeanT and Tim/Grabcocque both spring to mind.NickPalmer said:
Very nicely put. When are you going to write some lead articles? Seriously - you're wasted by being only below the line.edmundintokyo said:Agree with this, we're seeing some quite unorthodox moves, but it's in response to a very unorthodox situation where by creating a delay for an obviously-bogus negotiation then trying to run down the clock, the Prime Minister is attempting a Denial of Service attack on her own parliament.
Oh, you mean 'wasted' as in, 'not being used to full effectiveness?'0 -
Very kind of you, I was doing some way back when but I somehow ran out of takes.NickPalmer said:
Very nicely put. When are you going to write some lead articles? Seriously - you're wasted by being only below the line.edmundintokyo said:Agree with this, we're seeing some quite unorthodox moves, but it's in response to a very unorthodox situation where by creating a delay for an obviously-bogus negotiation then trying to run down the clock, the Prime Minister is attempting a Denial of Service attack on her own parliament.
If anyone's interested I could do a very betting-ish thing on crypto-economic betting platforms like Augur and Gnosis.0 -
Lolydoethur said:
Well, we have a number of others who are wasted when they post below the line. SeanT and Tim/Grabcocque both spring to mind.NickPalmer said:
Very nicely put. When are you going to write some lead articles? Seriously - you're wasted by being only below the line.edmundintokyo said:Agree with this, we're seeing some quite unorthodox moves, but it's in response to a very unorthodox situation where by creating a delay for an obviously-bogus negotiation then trying to run down the clock, the Prime Minister is attempting a Denial of Service attack on her own parliament.
Oh, you mean 'wasted' as in, 'not being used to full effectiveness?'0 -
So 2 leaders who have/are failing domestically happened to be stood together in the rain, and so enthused was this particular remainer by the sight that he felt it justified over-turning the will of the people in the largest democratic exercise ever held in the UK.IanB2 said:
This came home to me most bitterly in November, when I saw Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron arm in arm on Remembrance Day. They both braved the wind and rain, in a way that President Trump refused to do, to remember all our dead, and to learn the lesson that we must all come together to make sure it never happens again. I understood then the scale of what had been achieved in the last 60 years by a continent which had torn itself apart so often, and I realised then, my fellow Europeans, more clearly than ever who our real friends are – and the bleak, utter foolishness of separating ourselves from them.
Remainers have become utterly unhinged.
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So when immigration figures are near the highest ever, the answer is to make it less likely that illegal immigrants can be removed from the country.El_Capitano said:This is interesting:
http://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1085078079511453699
This moves it on from “we don’t like Theresa May’s Brexit deal” to “we don’t like Theresa May and all her works”. It’s almost vindictive... even though I fully agree with the proposal.
I’m sure this will be popular.0 -
The same people who are angrily insisting that leaving the EU isn't leaving the EU? That Brexit isn't Brexit unless it's Brexit? As I said last night, these people are morons, there are millions of them and they're going to be just as angry if May's deal somehow passes and we do leave the EU on schedule.asjohnstone said:
81% of votes went to parties with a manifesto that promised to enact Brexit.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
People are entitled to feel let down and lied to if they don't0 -
Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.0
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I see. Well certainly the Tuition Fees fiasco is an example of political betrayal being catastrophic. So I see why Leavers would cite it as an example of why Leave must happen. On the other hand there are some paralells between the Cleggasm and the Leave campaign. Both suffered/are suffering from turning populist surges into hard policy outcomes. To extend the Coalition/Brexit comparison perhap's Theresa May's problem is her deal is the AV of Brexit. A " miserable little compromise " that no one actually favours but it's what could be agreed ?ydoethur said:
Well, you said that the Tories having lost their majority had no mandate for 'their' form of Brexit. Fair enough, I agree with that.Yellow_Submarine said:
I don't understand your question.ydoethur said:
Out of curiosity, was that the logic for the Yellows bringing in tuition fees despite their infamous pledge? That 566 seats went to parties promising to implement the inane proposals of a self-confessed perjurer?Yellow_Submarine said:
The House of Commons' electoral mandate is chronologically superior to the referendum. And this House of Commons was the answer to a very specific question. May couldn't have been clearer about why she called an early General Election and what she wanted. Voters said No. That Theresa May and the Conservatives have no *sole* electoral mandate for a specific form of Brexit is as democratic a fact as the Leave victory itself.RoyalBlue said:
Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
It just seems quite a leap of logic from that to revoke, which is what the majority of the Commons is clearly trying to do.
I was wondering if the Lib Dems coming third and losing a number of seats could be taken as a similar sign that democratically they were correct to abandon the tuition fees pledge.
Of course, the consequences were unfortunate...0 -
Good morning, everyone.
I wonder what will be leading the news tonight...0 -
Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?0
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You over sorting out a trade dealCarlottaVance said:Greetings from Sydney! Thought I’d get away from it all. Not a bit of it - Brexit and the likely outcome of the meaningful vote led the 6 o’clock news....
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I assume you mean struggling to keep the defeat below 200....IanB2 said:
Latest seems to be that May is struggling to top 200, but probably willmurali_s said:Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?
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PrinceNigelb said:Dura_Ace said:
The selection was obviously carefully curated so, au moins, she is being well advised.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/1085009675744145408
Can you imagine May doing this? She'd probably pick the theme tune from the Antiques Roadshow for every category and then later lie about it.
Haven’t listened ... is Kamala Chameleon in there ?
Saint Bob
Funkadelic
A Tribe Called Quest
Too Short
Queen B
Salt-n-Pepa
The selection was scrupulously hip with a populist twist.0 -
He's just been on the radio, too. Basically he said that Jeremy will get round to it all, in his own time, but probably soon.OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
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No, 200 in favoureek said:
I assume you mean struggling to keep the defeat below 200....IanB2 said:
Latest seems to be that May is struggling to top 200, but probably willmurali_s said:Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?
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I'm thinking more of why Conservatives will ultimately decide the vote has to be honoured. The tuition fee fiasco is a parallel, better than AV.Yellow_Submarine said:
I see. Well certainly the Tuition Fees fiasco is an example of political betrayal being catastrophic. So I see why Leavers would cite it as an example of why Leave must happen. On the other hand there are some paralells between the Cleggasm and the Leave campaign. Both suffered/are suffering from turning populist surges into hard policy outcomes. To extend the Coalition/Brexit comparison perhap's Theresa May's problem is her deal is the AV of Brexit. A " miserable little compromise " that no one actually favours but it's what could be agreed ?ydoethur said:
Well, you said that the Tories having lost their majority had no mandate for 'their' form of Brexit. Fair enough, I agree with that.Yellow_Submarine said:
I don't understand your question.ydoethur said:
Out of curiosity, was that the logic for the Yellows bringing in tuition fees despite their infamous pledge? That 566 seats went to parties promising to implement the inane proposals of a self-confessed perjurer?Yellow_Submarine said:
The House of Commons' electoral mandate is chronologically superior to the referendum. And this House of Commons was the answer to a very specific question. May couldn't have been clearer about why she called an early General Election and what she wanted. Voters said No. That Theresa May and the Conservatives have no *sole* electoral mandate for a specific form of Brexit is as democratic a fact as the Leave victory itself.RoyalBlue said:
Not on everything, and not when the voters have already decided an issue in principle via referendum.not_on_fire said:
The Legislature are the voice of the Voters. They elected them.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
It just seems quite a leap of logic from that to revoke, which is what the majority of the Commons is clearly trying to do.
I was wondering if the Lib Dems coming third and losing a number of seats could be taken as a similar sign that democratically they were correct to abandon the tuition fees pledge.
Of course, the consequences were unfortunate...
I still think Brexit is the Browne Report of today, although while Boris may be a serial liar and fornicator he hasn't so far as I know committed perjury to hide his penchant for cottaging.
Have a good morning.0 -
MP's are not delegates and as Conservatives MP's have shown in the past they are not bound by the majority view in a referendum.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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In terms of defeats from antiquity I’m expecting Mrs May’s defeat tonight to be a Zama rather than a Dyrrhachium.0
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Is he leader of the Labour Party then?OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
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And a people's vote on the deal is hardly robbing them of a voice.JackW said:
MP's are not delegates and as Conservatives MP's have shown in the past they are not bound by the majority view in a referendum.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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I think the 210-219 band is the Betfair sweetspot at 7.IanB2 said:
No, 200 in favoureek said:
I assume you mean struggling to keep the defeat below 200....IanB2 said:
Latest seems to be that May is struggling to top 200, but probably willmurali_s said:Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?
https://twitter.com/326Pols/status/1084927547643781120?s=19
Though I also have 340+ at 110 in case of a dramatic late intervention that gets the opposition onside.
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Thesesa May has chosen to lose her status as an honest broker and has become instead an evangelist for Brexit with the zeal of a new convert.
It's a very strange thing to have done both for her legacy and her party. Her reputation had become enhanced over the last few months and she she's now trashed it.0 -
Sounds like a war criminal. The Klobuchar of Belgrade perhaps....Nigelb said:
Sounds like a confectionary bar name fail.edmundintokyo said:
Well, there's KLOBUCHARIanB2 said:
Yeah, I'd vote for that. Where's the alternative?Yellow_Submarine said:
I've seen worse. The laughing is creepy rather like the Wicked Witch of the West ordering a Drone Strike. But that's not necesserily a bad thing in a female presidential contender.edmundintokyo said:OT Kamala Harris trying to be cool. It's not horrifyingly cringeworthy or anything but I'd say it's a nah.
https://twitter.com/KamalaHarris/status/10850096757441454080 -
Not yet...MarqueeMark said:
Is he leader of the Labour Party then?OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
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Having a referendum on a specific issue should be a safety valve for voters. The party labels sometimes hide a multitude of sins. Liberal 'Democrats' hate them when they give the wrong answer and that, to me, seems anti-democratic. I remember Cleggy looking puzzled when this was pointed out to him.
Assuming that you personally are the font of all wisdom and others are less able to judge situations is dictatorial, or have I missed something? The hard-left can be forgiven because they have always believed their policies are perfect, but liberals? Really?
It's been an eye-opener if nothing else.
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If I was May i'd be calling a GE straight after the defeat tonight.OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
Force Labour to expose their position.0 -
Mr. Eagles, quite possibly.
For those who missed it, a repost from yesterday:
"And so, here is Morris Dancer's Roman defeat-o-meter for May's deal (emphasis on the tactical, not strategic, defeat):
Catalaunian Plains - shock victory against the odds - any majority at all for the deal
Teutoberg Forest - majority of 50 against May's deal
Adrianople - majority of 75 against May's deal
Lake Trasimene - majority of 100 against May's deal
Arausio - majority of 125 against May's deal
Carrhae - majority of 150 against May's deal
Cannae - annihilation, woe, doom, despair - majority of 175 against May's deal
Allia - Rome falls - majority of 200+ against May's deal
[NB Caudine Forks may apply if the PM instantly resigns due to the scale of humiliation]."0 -
Sky News project a margin of 225.eek said:
I assume you mean struggling to keep the defeat below 200....IanB2 said:
Latest seems to be that May is struggling to top 200, but probably willmurali_s said:Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?
Lib Dem leaflet says 'it's too close to call'.0 -
We need bar charts to show how close.....SandyRentool said:
Sky News project a margin of 225.eek said:
I assume you mean struggling to keep the defeat below 200....IanB2 said:
Latest seems to be that May is struggling to top 200, but probably willmurali_s said:Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?
Lib Dem leaflet says 'it's too close to call'.0 -
Macron hints he will introduce immigration quotas
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2019/01/14/01016-20190114ARTFIG00235-macron-ressuscite-le-debat-sur-l-instauration-de-quotas-migratoires-annuels.php
it does make you wonder just how bad Merkel and the Commissions judgement called it with Cameron. This is increasingly the european norm.0 -
I don't approve of a "People's Vote" or indeed government by referendum, save for nation forming. That said the nation decided and leave the EU we must. How is the question and part of the answer will be known later - Not the May Deal.IanB2 said:
And a people's vote on the deal is hardly robbing them of a voice.JackW said:
MP's are not delegates and as Conservatives MP's have shown in the past they are not bound by the majority view in a referendum.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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Greg Hands was one of the Conservative MPs I'd had down as uncommitted. Theresa May seems to be losing the uncommitted to "against" at the moment.
The other uncommitted Conservative MPs I have are:
Adam Afriyie Windsor
Bob Blackman Harrow East
Graham Brady Altrincham and Sale West
Jack Brereton Stoke-on-Trent South
Kevin Foster Torbay
Eddie Hughes Walsall North
Ian Liddell-Grainger Bridgwater and West Somerset
Jonathan Lord Woking
Alan Mak Havant
Daniel Poulter Central Suffolk and North Ipswich
Tom Pursglove Corby
Keith Simpson Broadland
Julian Sturdy York Outer
Till now I'd expected Theresa May would pick up substantially all of these. Now I expect she'll lose more than half.
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I was told last night Pursglove was going to resign this morning to vote against the deal.AlastairMeeks said:Greg Hands was one of the Conservative MPs I'd had down as uncommitted. Theresa May seems to be losing the uncommitted to "against" at the moment.
The other uncommitted Conservative MPs I have are:
Adam Afriyie Windsor
Bob Blackman Harrow East
Graham Brady Altrincham and Sale West
Jack Brereton Stoke-on-Trent South
Kevin Foster Torbay
Eddie Hughes Walsall North
Ian Liddell-Grainger Bridgwater and West Somerset
Jonathan Lord Woking
Alan Mak Havant
Daniel Poulter Central Suffolk and North Ipswich
Tom Pursglove Corby
Keith Simpson Broadland
Julian Sturdy York Outer
Till now I'd expected Theresa May would pick up substantially all of these. Now I expect she'll lose more than half.
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We COULD have a one-line bill revoking the FTPA 2011. Then vote, what, mid February? New Parliament decides Brexit outcome on the basis of what the voters have decided before March 29.SunnyJim said:
If I was May i'd be calling a GE straight after the defeat tonight.OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
Force Labour to expose their position.
Anybody think Labour REALLY wants an election that leaves them implementing Brexit though? It would be the ultimate "good election to lose"......0 -
Problem with that is that it would also force the Tories to expose their GE position. Surely after over 100 of their sitting MP's have just voted against passing May's deal, it cannot be "Elect us and we will pass May's deal"SunnyJim said:
If I was May i'd be calling a GE straight after the defeat tonight.OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
Force Labour to expose their position.0 -
Mr DMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, quite possibly.
For those who missed it, a repost from yesterday:
"And so, here is Morris Dancer's Roman defeat-o-meter for May's deal (emphasis on the tactical, not strategic, defeat):
Catalaunian Plains - shock victory against the odds - any majority at all for the deal
Teutoberg Forest - majority of 50 against May's deal
Adrianople - majority of 75 against May's deal
Lake Trasimene - majority of 100 against May's deal
Arausio - majority of 125 against May's deal
Carrhae - majority of 150 against May's deal
Cannae - annihilation, woe, doom, despair - majority of 175 against May's deal
Allia - Rome falls - majority of 200+ against May's deal
[NB Caudine Forks may apply if the PM instantly resigns due to the scale of humiliation]."
you should add Manzikert to that
it's like Cannae but theyve kicked the can down the road for several hundred years first0 -
That was trailed on Sunday night. Another one to watch is Alan Mak. He is an MP who is always keen to discern the zeitgeist.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was told last night Pursglove was going to resign this morning to vote against the deal.AlastairMeeks said:Greg Hands was one of the Conservative MPs I'd had down as uncommitted. Theresa May seems to be losing the uncommitted to "against" at the moment.
The other uncommitted Conservative MPs I have are:
Adam Afriyie Windsor
Bob Blackman Harrow East
Graham Brady Altrincham and Sale West
Jack Brereton Stoke-on-Trent South
Kevin Foster Torbay
Eddie Hughes Walsall North
Ian Liddell-Grainger Bridgwater and West Somerset
Jonathan Lord Woking
Alan Mak Havant
Daniel Poulter Central Suffolk and North Ipswich
Tom Pursglove Corby
Keith Simpson Broadland
Julian Sturdy York Outer
Till now I'd expected Theresa May would pick up substantially all of these. Now I expect she'll lose more than half.
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I don’t think you can do that.MarqueeMark said:
We COULD have a one-line bill revoking the FTPA 2011. Then vote, what, mid February? New Parliament decides Brexit outcome on the basis of what the voters have decided before March 29.SunnyJim said:
If I was May i'd be calling a GE straight after the defeat tonight.OldKingCole said:Keir Starmer on BBC Breakfast strongly hinting that in the the event of a GE Labour would offer another vote.
Force Labour to expose their position.
Anybody think Labour REALLY wants an election that leaves them implementing Brexit though? It would be the ultimate "good election to lose"......
You’d need some primary legislation to replace/supercede the FTPA.0 -
I can't see Kevin Foster being anything other than for the Deal. (Not that I've spoken to him. But he's bag-carrier for David Lidington.)TheScreamingEagles said:
I was told last night Pursglove was going to resign this morning to vote against the deal.AlastairMeeks said:Greg Hands was one of the Conservative MPs I'd had down as uncommitted. Theresa May seems to be losing the uncommitted to "against" at the moment.
The other uncommitted Conservative MPs I have are:
Adam Afriyie Windsor
Bob Blackman Harrow East
Graham Brady Altrincham and Sale West
Jack Brereton Stoke-on-Trent South
Kevin Foster Torbay
Eddie Hughes Walsall North
Ian Liddell-Grainger Bridgwater and West Somerset
Jonathan Lord Woking
Alan Mak Havant
Daniel Poulter Central Suffolk and North Ipswich
Tom Pursglove Corby
Keith Simpson Broadland
Julian Sturdy York Outer
Till now I'd expected Theresa May would pick up substantially all of these. Now I expect she'll lose more than half.0 -
‘Backstop Winning Here’SandyRentool said:
Sky News project a margin of 225.eek said:
I assume you mean struggling to keep the defeat below 200....IanB2 said:
Latest seems to be that May is struggling to top 200, but probably willmurali_s said:Morning folks. Any current indication of how the vote will go tonight. The guidance was a defeat by about 100 votes - is that still the thinking?
Lib Dem leaflet says 'it's too close to call'.0 -
By 'cultural vandalism' I wonder if he's referring to the concept of restricting our ability to live and work in Florence Rome and Paris in return for keeping foreigners out of Stoke Hull and Hartlepool?TheScreamingEagles said:
Malcolm Turnbull nailed it (or rather William Dalrymple did).CarlottaVance said:Greetings from Sydney! Thought I’d get away from it all. Not a bit of it - Brexit and the likely outcome of the meaningful vote led the 6 o’clock news....
https://twitter.com/turnbullmalcolm/status/1084915377505677317?s=210 -
Going back to the theme of tax avoidance the Commission is proposing to remove states right of veto on tax affairs
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article187054320/EU-Bruessel-will-das-Veto-Recht-bei-Steuerfragen-kippen.html0 -
That's the argument that really destroys those who say that the "will of the people" is being ignored.IanB2 said:
And a people's vote on the deal is hardly robbing them of a voice.JackW said:
MP's are not delegates and as Conservatives MP's have shown in the past they are not bound by the majority view in a referendum.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
52% of people two and a half years ago voted to 'Leave', now that we know what 'Leave' means in detail it appears that some have changed their minds. Also there are many new voters, those that will be most affected, let them have a voice.0 -
Surely Ireland will veto any loss of veto?Alanbrooke said:Going back to the theme of tax avoidance the Commission is proposing to remove states right of veto on tax affairs
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article187054320/EU-Bruessel-will-das-Veto-Recht-bei-Steuerfragen-kippen.html0 -
It is when leave hasn't been implemented in the first place.IanB2 said:
And a people's vote on the deal is hardly robbing them of a voice.JackW said:
MP's are not delegates and as Conservatives MP's have shown in the past they are not bound by the majority view in a referendum.MarqueeMark said:Oh the irony - the Speaker allowing the Legislature to take powers away from the Executive, solely so that the Legislature can rob the Voters of their voice - and in doing so, ensure the Legislature's own powers are massively diluted by Brussels.....
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With an explicit manifesto commitment to implement then it would be up to current MP's to decide whether their views on the deal would allow them to stand as candidates.BudG said:
Problem with that is that it would also force the Tories to expose their GE position. Surely after over 100 of their sitting MP's have just voted against passing May's deal, it cannot be "Elect us and we will pass May's deal"
Unfortunately in 2017 many stood on the manifesto without having any real intention of honouring it.
Democratically shameful in all honesty.
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