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Bet Will Quince feels a bit of a numpty now.0
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We would have had a coalition of chaos had that happened rather than the years of stability we've had since (!)murali_s said:If only we voted (I did ofc) for Ed Milliband instead of David Cameron back in 2015. Wonder how things would be now in that alternative universe....
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No it is not there. You need 160 Tory MPs to vote against her and even some of the 111 will still back her. Plus no alternative Tory leader has any better Deal that the EU could agree to and most Tory Mps oppose No Deal and do not want to risk a No Dealer like Boris, Raab or Davis winningPhilip_Thompson said:How many Tory MPs does it take to reach 50%+1 to eject her? Must be pretty close if a vote was called.
I believe 111 now have come out against the deal. That's most of the way there. Throw in some cabinet ministers who in the secrecy of a secret ballot feel they could run for the job themselves. But more importantly the number opposed to the deal at heart is likely much greater than 111 since coming out of the closet to be against it requires 'payroll vote' MPs to quit their posts. In a secret ballot VoNC those payroll vote MPs who think the deal [or May] is crap but don't want to throw away their job over it can vote against in a secret ballot.0 -
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).0 -
I'm sure that the willingness of the Government to throw endless money at London will make a lot of people elsewhere in the country rather cross.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
My understanding is that, at least, this is a loan rather than a gift. Which is something. All the same, there'll be local authorities all over the country who can't afford to run desperately needed bus services who will be looking at this debacle and rolling their eyes.
Now that this project is nearly finished I suppose it's necessary to complete the investment and shovel more money at it until the job's done, but if London wants Crossrail 2 after this then the Mayor should be told to raise all the funds through TfL fares and private finance from the City. Other parts of the country are more deserving of the money. By which I mean, all of the other parts.0 -
Philip_Thompson said:
A regulatory barrier where they choose to erect one, not where others do.Anazina said:R
Who cares? There is already a gigantic regulatory barrier there, as anyone who is gay and in love, or who has an unwanted pregnancy will attest.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Theo, there's to be a customs barrier within British sovereign (apparently) territory, down the Irish Sea.
That'd be like having a regulatory barrier in Scotland not because Holyrood had erected one but because Saudi Arabia suddenly was writing Scottish laws.
Where they choose to erect one?0 -
So the options seem to me to be:
1. May goes to Brussels, manages to find a magic unicorn that pleases everyone in fairly short time, MPs line up to sing her praises and erect a statue on Parliament Green, and back the deal. Chances - zero.
2. May goes back to Brussels, doesn’t get very far but has a Damascene conversion and calls a second referendum. Chances - highly unlikely in my view. She’s have called the vote today if she really was going to bend that way.
3. Brussels renegotiations becomes protracted, May runs the clock down and stages an eleventh hour vote when MPs can see no deal in the whites of their eyes. They hold their noses and it passes. Chances - at the moment that seems the most likely to me.
4. Repeat the above but May loses the vote and we crash out. Chances - conceivable but unlikely given the strength of feeling against no deal.
5. At some point in all this farrago MPs vote to extend/withdraw article 50. Chances - probably quite good at least on the extension front but I’m not sure if their decision is binding? Any parliamentary procedural bods want to help me here?
6. VONC in May. At this stage I don’t even know if we can predict what demons that would unleash. Chances - scarily good.
7. VONC in the government. See above re demons. Possibly Corbyn shaped. Chances - how likely that is depends on how much you trust the DUP. Not sure I do.
Have I missed any?0 -
I doubt it, otherwise why bother with the WA at all. It all points to no deal as the only viable form of Brexit and the only other option is no Brexit. Out of those two, I’ll take no deal.OldKingCole said:
Perhaps they don't trust either us or the DUP to play by the rules.AmpfieldAndy said:
Maybe, maybe not - but the point at issue is the NI border and on that the EU have refused to contemplate anything other than a border down the Irish Sea between NI and GB. That’s why we cannot contemplate any agreement with a backstop and why it’s the EU that is the real problem.OldKingCole said:
The EU negotiators have conceded, I suspect, rather more than they really, really wanted to because the 27 want to keep Britain close. Not so much because they want disruptive us us, but because Britain leaving is going to cause disruption in the rest of Europe.AmpfieldAndy said:
Go on then - what other solutions has the EU contemplated or suggested.Dadge said:
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.AmpfieldAndy said:The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
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If Britain is going that direction, London would benefit hugely from full fiscal autonomy. It massively subsidises the rest of the country.Black_Rook said:
I'm sure that the willingness of the Government to throw endless money at London will make a lot of people elsewhere in the country rather cross.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
My understanding is that, at least, this is a loan rather than a gift. Which is something. All the same, there'll be local authorities all over the country who can't afford to run desperately needed bus services who will be looking at this debacle and rolling their eyes.
Now that this project is nearly finished I suppose it's necessary to complete the investment and shovel more money at it until the job's done, but if London wants Crossrail 2 after this then the Mayor should be told to raise all the funds through TfL fares and private finance from the City. Other parts of the country are more deserving of the money. By which I mean, all of the other parts.0 -
Yes. If the law was to be changed affecting those who are gay and in love, or having an unwanted pregnancy then it would be done so with their consent. Not because a foreign country had changed their rules.Anazina said:Philip_Thompson said:
A regulatory barrier where they choose to erect one, not where others do.Anazina said:R
Who cares? There is already a gigantic regulatory barrier there, as anyone who is gay and in love, or who has an unwanted pregnancy will attest.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Theo, there's to be a customs barrier within British sovereign (apparently) territory, down the Irish Sea.
That'd be like having a regulatory barrier in Scotland not because Holyrood had erected one but because Saudi Arabia suddenly was writing Scottish laws.
Where they choose to erect one?0 -
Same question asked over and over and over and over and over and over,........0
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Ho ho, there speaks a supporter of the government which blew £10bn on the NHS database alone, for which the taxpayer got absolutely nothing.Anazina said:
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).0 -
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I think you can criticise the governance of the project and clearly some of the information provided to publicly-accountable officials was "misjudged" given what was actually going on.Anazina said:
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.
I don't think the Government "manages" the project at all (indeed, I don't believe Transport for London has any representation on the project Board) and I think the culpability has been to leave it to those running the project and rely on them for information.
Obviously CR will have his or her take on this and it would be fascinating to hear that perspective.
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I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen0 -
No alternative Tory leader has any better Deal as only the PM has the authority to negotiate a Deal. But OTOH many potential alternative leaders would back themselves to get a better deal. Hunt, Javid, Gove and more might in a secret ballot think they could do the job better ... even if they couldn't.HYUFD said:
No it is not there. You need 160 Tory MPs to vote against her and even some of the 111 will still back her. Plus no alternative Tory leader has any better Deal that the EU could agree to and most Tory Mps oppose No Deal and do not want to risk a No Dealer like Boris, Raab or Davis winningPhilip_Thompson said:How many Tory MPs does it take to reach 50%+1 to eject her? Must be pretty close if a vote was called.
I believe 111 now have come out against the deal. That's most of the way there. Throw in some cabinet ministers who in the secrecy of a secret ballot feel they could run for the job themselves. But more importantly the number opposed to the deal at heart is likely much greater than 111 since coming out of the closet to be against it requires 'payroll vote' MPs to quit their posts. In a secret ballot VoNC those payroll vote MPs who think the deal [or May] is crap but don't want to throw away their job over it can vote against in a secret ballot.0 -
I think the new found concern to hear the ivory bill by the government is quite remarkable 0
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I really, really wish the Central Line had been bored to a "main line" diameter of 16ft rather than its current 12ft, AND connections had been retained at Ealing, between Stratford/Leyton on the surface and between Ilford/Newbury Park. And perhaps the other deep-level tube lines bored at 16ft as well. Seems a bit silly to send out little cramped tube trains out to places like Epping, Edgware, Heathrow and Stanmore.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).
Tunnelling 16ft at deep-level was actually carried out between Moorgate and Drayton Park (near the Emirates Stadium) as early as 1904.0 -
So Tusk is saying no negotiation, just facilitation. What on earth does that mean, if anything? It looks like nonsense words given the UK won't agree without changes.0
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Crossrail is run by Khan, not "this government"...Anazina said:
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).0 -
Extinction-event level meteorite strike ends the need to consider options 1 to 7 further.numbertwelve said:So the options seem to me to be:
1. May goes to Brussels, manages to find a magic unicorn that pleases everyone in fairly short time, MPs line up to sing her praises and erect a statue on Parliament Green, and back the deal. Chances - zero.
2. May goes back to Brussels, doesn’t get very far but has a Damascene conversion and calls a second referendum. Chances - highly unlikely in my view. She’s have called the vote today if she really was going to bend that way.
3. Brussels renegotiations becomes protracted, May runs the clock down and stages an eleventh hour vote when MPs can see no deal in the whites of their eyes. They hold their noses and it passes. Chances - at the moment that seems the most likely to me.
4. Repeat the above but May loses the vote and we crash out. Chances - conceivable but unlikely given the strength of feeling against no deal.
5. At some point in all this farrago MPs vote to extend/withdraw article 50. Chances - probably quite good at least on the extension front but I’m not sure if their decision is binding? Any parliamentary procedural bods want to help me here?
6. VONC in May. At this stage I don’t even know if we can predict what demons that would unleash. Chances - scarily good.
7. VONC in the government. See above re demons. Possibly Corbyn shaped. Chances - how likely that is depends on how much you trust the DUP. Not sure I do.
Have I missed any?0 -
She is playing with fire and increasing the chances of both No Deal and No Brexit.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen
If May's deal dies tomorrow and she gets replaced over the holiday period then the chances of a new leader getting a concession that makes the deal acceptable is much more likely than May getting one herself without a rejection first.
The best chance of getting [an amended version of] her deal through is for someone else to reach the end of negotiations then back it. With or without amendments.
Even if no amendment is possible, a new leader saying so will be listened to more than May ever can be.0 -
Except the large and significant bits that it did deliver which are still in use by the NHS today on a huge scale.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ho ho, there speaks a supporter of the government which blew £10bn on the NHS database alone, for which the taxpayer got absolutely nothing.Anazina said:
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).0 -
Running a bit behind here, but given Bercow said, IIRC,that the government has the ability to pull the vote, was it really appropriate for him to tell them they should not do that? Shouldn't it be for the opposition and rebels to complain about discourtesy, and for him to rule if the government can or cannot do things?0
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They may not get the chance, if a No Dealer gets to the final two like Boris, Davis or Raab they likely win the membership and Hunt, Javid and Give are all tied to the Deal they backed as the only one available. If May goes down she likely takes them with herPhilip_Thompson said:
No alternative Tory leader has any better Deal as only the PM has the authority to negotiate a Deal. But OTOH many potential alternative leaders would back themselves to get a better deal. Hunt, Javid, Gove and more might in a secret ballot think they could do the job better ... even if they couldn't.HYUFD said:
No it is not there. You need 160 Tory MPs to vote against her and even some of the 111 will still back her. Plus no alternative Tory leader has any better Deal that the EU could agree to and most Tory Mps oppose No Deal and do not want to risk a No Dealer like Boris, Raab or Davis winningPhilip_Thompson said:How many Tory MPs does it take to reach 50%+1 to eject her? Must be pretty close if a vote was called.
I believe 111 now have come out against the deal. That's most of the way there. Throw in some cabinet ministers who in the secrecy of a secret ballot feel they could run for the job themselves. But more importantly the number opposed to the deal at heart is likely much greater than 111 since coming out of the closet to be against it requires 'payroll vote' MPs to quit their posts. In a secret ballot VoNC those payroll vote MPs who think the deal [or May] is crap but don't want to throw away their job over it can vote against in a secret ballot.0 -
How does it work with English residents working in Scotland? Do they pay taxes in England or Scotland? Would a London with fiscal autonomy lay claim to my tax even though I live in Surrey?AlastairMeeks said:
If Britain is going that direction, London would benefit hugely from full fiscal autonomy. It massively subsidises the rest of the country.Black_Rook said:
I'm sure that the willingness of the Government to throw endless money at London will make a lot of people elsewhere in the country rather cross.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
My understanding is that, at least, this is a loan rather than a gift. Which is something. All the same, there'll be local authorities all over the country who can't afford to run desperately needed bus services who will be looking at this debacle and rolling their eyes.
Now that this project is nearly finished I suppose it's necessary to complete the investment and shovel more money at it until the job's done, but if London wants Crossrail 2 after this then the Mayor should be told to raise all the funds through TfL fares and private finance from the City. Other parts of the country are more deserving of the money. By which I mean, all of the other parts.
Whatever the arguments for spending in London, I think Crossrail 2 is unnecessary. Crossrail makes sense because of Heathrow, the City and Docklands. The only real reason for doing Crossrail 2 is if you want to ramp up trains on the Southwestern mainline by freeing up capacity on the slow lines into Waterloo.0 -
Crossrail is run by Transport for London so ultimately the buck stops with Sadiq and perhaps Boris before him.Donny43 said:
Crossrail is run by Khan, not "this government"...
And yet the information presented by the Crossrail Group on its website and it seems to Sadiq and others seems to have been less than wholly accurate in some respects. Until very recently (July 2018) the project was on time and on budget.
Now, if that was the case in July (really?), it's clearly not the case in December. I'm forced to ask whether there was disinformation provided and whether it was either the Crossrail Team who was kept in the dark by the project or whether the Crossrail Leadership Team knew and decided not to make the Mayor aware of what was going on.0 -
The whip gets distracted by a particularly intense candy crush level and forgets to shout "tomorrow"numbertwelve said:So the options seem to me to be:
1. May goes to Brussels, manages to find a magic unicorn that pleases everyone in fairly short time, MPs line up to sing her praises and erect a statue on Parliament Green, and back the deal. Chances - zero.
2. May goes back to Brussels, doesn’t get very far but has a Damascene conversion and calls a second referendum. Chances - highly unlikely in my view. She’s have called the vote today if she really was going to bend that way.
3. Brussels renegotiations becomes protracted, May runs the clock down and stages an eleventh hour vote when MPs can see no deal in the whites of their eyes. They hold their noses and it passes. Chances - at the moment that seems the most likely to me.
4. Repeat the above but May loses the vote and we crash out. Chances - conceivable but unlikely given the strength of feeling against no deal.
5. At some point in all this farrago MPs vote to extend/withdraw article 50. Chances - probably quite good at least on the extension front but I’m not sure if their decision is binding? Any parliamentary procedural bods want to help me here?
6. VONC in May. At this stage I don’t even know if we can predict what demons that would unleash. Chances - scarily good.
7. VONC in the government. See above re demons. Possibly Corbyn shaped. Chances - how likely that is depends on how much you trust the DUP. Not sure I do.
Have I missed any?0 -
Chicken, egg. If a steady flow of Government subsidy had been thrown at Lancashire for the last umpteen decades then the balance of power might be very different.AlastairMeeks said:
If Britain is going that direction, London would benefit hugely from full fiscal autonomy. It massively subsidises the rest of the country.Black_Rook said:
I'm sure that the willingness of the Government to throw endless money at London will make a lot of people elsewhere in the country rather cross.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
My understanding is that, at least, this is a loan rather than a gift. Which is something. All the same, there'll be local authorities all over the country who can't afford to run desperately needed bus services who will be looking at this debacle and rolling their eyes.
Now that this project is nearly finished I suppose it's necessary to complete the investment and shovel more money at it until the job's done, but if London wants Crossrail 2 after this then the Mayor should be told to raise all the funds through TfL fares and private finance from the City. Other parts of the country are more deserving of the money. By which I mean, all of the other parts.
Besides, if rich parts of the country - rather like rich individuals - don't take upon themselves a relatively greater percentage of the burden (within reason) for the upkeep of themselves and their neighbours, then we'll never get anywhere. London can raise money for glamorous, nice-to-have projects if it is minded to. Unloved Northern towns struggle to afford to do the basics.
One is also obliged to point out that London relies on the rest of the country, largely or completely, for all of the following: food, water, electricity, gas, airport and port capacity, and dormitory space for all those workers who have been priced out of its silly property market (and, incidentally, saddle those of us living tens of miles beyond the capital with spiralling prices, even though we scarcely set foot there.) So the give and take isn't all in one direction.0 -
Is the management the Crossrail project illustrative of the benefits of rail nationalisation?
It is a state owned company that has messed up rather than a privately owned company?0 -
Barclay sticking it to Labour lol0
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It’s terrifying that Nicky Morgan is coming out of this sounding the most sane.0
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Just seen two politicians in Bruxelles being interviewed on Ch 4. So articulate bright and clear thinking that any British person watching would be seriously jealous.
Why are our politicians so inarticulate arrogant and crap?0 -
Try telling people in every EU country they dont have crap politicians, let me know how many agree.Roger said:Just seen two politicians in Bruxelles being interviewed on Ch 4. So articulate bright and clear thinking that any British person watching would be seriously jealous.
Why are our politicians so inarticulate arrogant and crap?0 -
Dir Terry Morgan quitting his Crossrail and HS2 roles last week now seems rather interesting timing, especially his comments that he expected to be sacked. Why might now appear a little clearer ...stodge said:
Crossrail is run by Transport for London so ultimately the buck stops with Sadiq and perhaps Boris before him.Donny43 said:
Crossrail is run by Khan, not "this government"...
And yet the information presented by the Crossrail Group on its website and it seems to Sadiq and others seems to have been less than wholly accurate in some respects. Until very recently (July 2018) the project was on time and on budget.
Now, if that was the case in July (really?), it's clearly not the case in December. I'm forced to ask whether there was disinformation provided and whether it was either the Crossrail Team who was kept in the dark by the project or whether the Crossrail Leadership Team knew and decided not to make the Mayor aware of what was going on.0 -
I don’t think that’s going to fly, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
It’s blatantly obvious that running down the clock is, and has been, her strategy all along. It’s equally obvious that if the Commons lets that happen, they will risk running out of time to be able to engineer any other result than the one you outline.
The May filibuster is as unpalatable as the ERG one (and curiously, leaving May in place until the eleventh hour is probably now their best chance of forcing no deal). Even the slow wits in the Commons will work out pretty quickly that the strategy is to force a choice on the least unpleasant of two options, both of which they would otherwise vote to reject.
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
0 -
I think Macron really wants a quiet weekend next week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-465131890 -
Whataboutery in its purest form.Richard_Nabavi said:
Ho ho, there speaks a supporter of the government which blew £10bn on the NHS database alone, for which the taxpayer got absolutely nothing.Anazina said:
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).0 -
Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?0
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Yes, Alistair’s constant refrain that London deserves all the investment and hang the rest is a recipe for far greater social fracture than we now have.Black_Rook said:
Chicken, egg. If a steady flow of Government subsidy had been thrown at Lancashire for the last umpteen decades then the balance of power might be very different.AlastairMeeks said:
If Britain is going that direction, London would benefit hugely from full fiscal autonomy. It massively subsidises the rest of the country.Black_Rook said:
I'm sure that the willingness of the Government to throw endless money at London will make a lot of people elsewhere in the country rather cross.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
My understanding is that, at least, this is a loan rather than a gift. Which is something. All the same, there'll be local authorities all over the country who can't afford to run desperately needed bus services who will be looking at this debacle and rolling their eyes.
Now that this project is nearly finished I suppose it's necessary to complete the investment and shovel more money at it until the job's done, but if London wants Crossrail 2 after this then the Mayor should be told to raise all the funds through TfL fares and private finance from the City. Other parts of the country are more deserving of the money. By which I mean, all of the other parts.
Besides, if rich parts of the country - rather like rich individuals - don't take upon themselves a relatively greater percentage of the burden (within reason) for the upkeep of themselves and their neighbours, then we'll never get anywhere. London can raise money for glamorous, nice-to-have projects if it is minded to. Unloved Northern towns struggle to afford to do the basics.
One is also obliged to point out that London relies on the rest of the country, largely or completely, for all of the following: food, water, electricity, gas, airport and port capacity, and dormitory space for all those workers who have been priced out of its silly property market (and, incidentally, saddle those of us living tens of miles beyond the capital with spiralling prices, even though we scarcely set foot there.) So the give and take isn't all in one direction.
0 -
The problem with any scenario in which MPs vote for the Deal in a panic is that the DUP responds by terminating the Government. What happens if the DUP calls for a VoNC? Does Corbyn decline to back it? Do his MPs?Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen
DUP brings down May, DUP refuses to vote for Corbyn, DUP forces General Election. Labour would probably be quite happy with that. Would the Conservatives?0 -
They've invested massive amounts in the railways: a successful £200 million remodelling project is just finishing in Derby, for instance.Anazina said:
A poorly managed project by this government, who have now proven time after time that they cannot be trusted with the railways. I am sure Casino Royale, who is a senior Crossrail manager can explain why the govt are hopeless at running big public infrastructure schemes.stodge said:Evening all
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).
If we're playing that sort of blame game, you might want to recall the absolutely hideous mess Blair's government made of the WCML upgrade program in the early 2000s: more than five times over budget at about £10 billion, years late, and did not deliver the desired upgrades (no new signalling system, 125 MPH running instead of 140MPH).0 -
May is poor. But, at least she has not yet had to appear on prime time TV, grovelling to the electorate. Like Jupiter.
Time to remind ourselves about what the Remainer enthusiasts for the “President for the Rich” were saying just a few months ago.
Step Forward, Vince Cable.
"The Liberal Democrats can offer “exactly the formula" of centrist French President Emmanuel Macron, Sir Vince Cable has said. The new Lib Dem leader told the BBC that he wanted to occupy the “vast middle ground in British politics that's largely been abandoned".
Step Forward, Alistair Campbell
"Macron has energy and confidence and conviction. A shared determination to move Europe in the right direction. A Europe founded on real values. Commitment to proper sharing of wealth. Real defence of the environment. A sense of obligation to poorer and weaker parts of the world.”
Who would have thought we would see the day that Theresa May has more credibility than Jupiter.
The Brexit Revolution has lasted longer than the Macron Revolution. It must hold the record of one of the shortest revolutions yet.
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Caveat: I don’t know, but surely the withdrawal act would have to be amended to facilitate this? That is the gift of the government. Now if it was the will of the house you’d suggest they’d bring forward an amendment bill but who knows?Pulpstar said:Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
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What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.AlastairMeeks said:
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.Theo said:
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.AlastairMeeks said:
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.Alanbrooke said:
lolAlastairMeeks said:
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.Floater said:
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.HYUFD said:
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interestmurali_s said:The Tory party are a f*cking disgrace.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.0 -
If the Commons votes to revoke the government's would have to comply, just as they had to comply with the vote to release the AGs legal advice last week. The government's position is so weak that it could not possibly refuse, and if it comes to a vote to revoke it will be against a background of crisis, imminent food shortages and severe disruption. The only way of avoiding such a crisis at that stage will be to revoke.Pulpstar said:Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
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The price of MPs voting for this deal might be the collapse of the government.Black_Rook said:
The problem with any scenario in which MPs vote for the Deal in a panic is that the DUP responds by terminating the Government. What happens if the DUP calls for a VoNC? Does Corbyn decline to back it? Do his MPs?Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen
DUP brings down May, DUP refuses to vote for Corbyn, DUP forces General Election. Labour would probably be quite happy with that. Would the Conservatives?0 -
Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.0 -
Brexit is more important than party politics. If the price to avoid catastrophe is the government that sucks for them. Or they can hold firm and hope their own predictions do not come true.Black_Rook said:
The problem with any scenario in which MPs vote for the Deal in a panic is that the DUP responds by terminating the Government. What happens if the DUP calls for a VoNC? Does Corbyn decline to back it? Do his MPs?Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen
DUP brings down May, DUP refuses to vote for Corbyn, DUP forces General Election. Labour would probably be quite happy with that. Would the Conservatives?
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I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.Nigelb said:
I don’t think that’s going to fly, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
It’s blatantly obvious that running down the clock is, and has been, her strategy all along. It’s equally obvious that if the Commons lets that happen, they will risk running out of time to be able to engineer any other result than the one you outline.
The May filibuster is as unpalatable as the ERG one (and curiously, leaving May in place until the eleventh hour is probably now their best chance of forcing no deal). Even the slow wits in the Commons will work out pretty quickly that the strategy is to force a choice on the least unpleasant of two options, both of which they would otherwise vote to reject.
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose0 -
Yes, I suppose one can take comfort from the fact that other people's politicians are probably all as rubbish as ours - it's just that we don't really know anything about them. I mean, look what we start to think of them once we do. Exhibit A: Trump. Exhibit B: Macron.kle4 said:
Try telling people in every EU country they dont have crap politicians, let me know how many agree.Roger said:Just seen two politicians in Bruxelles being interviewed on Ch 4. So articulate bright and clear thinking that any British person watching would be seriously jealous.
Why are our politicians so inarticulate arrogant and crap?
Still doesn't mean ours aren't really, really crap though.0 -
Not at all. The second May goes the binds of collective responsibility to back the deal go with her. In one bound they would be free to say politely how they thank May for her service but they will now seek a new deal that ...HYUFD said:
They may not get the chance, if a No Dealer gets to the final two like Boris, Davis or Raab they likely win the membership and Hunt, Javid and Give are all tied to the Deal they backed as the only one available. If May goes down she likely takes them with herPhilip_Thompson said:
No alternative Tory leader has any better Deal as only the PM has the authority to negotiate a Deal. But OTOH many potential alternative leaders would back themselves to get a better deal. Hunt, Javid, Gove and more might in a secret ballot think they could do the job better ... even if they couldn't.HYUFD said:
No it is not there. You need 160 Tory MPs to vote against her and even some of the 111 will still back her. Plus no alternative Tory leader has any better Deal that the EU could agree to and most Tory Mps oppose No Deal and do not want to risk a No Dealer like Boris, Raab or Davis winningPhilip_Thompson said:How many Tory MPs does it take to reach 50%+1 to eject her? Must be pretty close if a vote was called.
I believe 111 now have come out against the deal. That's most of the way there. Throw in some cabinet ministers who in the secrecy of a secret ballot feel they could run for the job themselves. But more importantly the number opposed to the deal at heart is likely much greater than 111 since coming out of the closet to be against it requires 'payroll vote' MPs to quit their posts. In a secret ballot VoNC those payroll vote MPs who think the deal [or May] is crap but don't want to throw away their job over it can vote against in a secret ballot.
Ejecting the PM midterm doesn't eject her cabinet from the running. In fact history shows the successor is almost always from the Cabinet.0 -
And would the how would Brexit day be postponed to give a new government the chance of avoiding no deal ?Black_Rook said:
The problem with any scenario in which MPs vote for the Deal in a panic is that the DUP responds by terminating the Government. What happens if the DUP calls for a VoNC? Does Corbyn decline to back it? Do his MPs?Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen
DUP brings down May, DUP refuses to vote for Corbyn, DUP forces General Election. Labour would probably be quite happy with that. Would the Conservatives?
That is of course possible, but that doesn’t mean it would happen.
A forced election could be part of the no deal filibuster.
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May found that fairly easy pulling the vote.
Even when the experts on here said she could not.
Must be a lesson to be learnt.
As many Brexit supporters said do not trust so called experts.
Wish I had bet on my hunch , that May would pull the vote.
Anyone who takes her word for gospel is an idiot.0 -
I'm not even saying ours are less crap, I don't know where they'd rank, and some will be on average less crap than ours. But Roger has a tendency to suggest there is only class and dignity on the continent, rather ignoring obvious evidence political crap exists there too.Black_Rook said:
Yes, I suppose one can take comfort from the fact that other people's politicians are probably all as rubbish as ours - it's just that we don't really know anything about them. I mean, look what we start to think of them once we do. Exhibit A: Trump. Exhibit B: Macron.kle4 said:
Try telling people in every EU country they dont have crap politicians, let me know how many agree.Roger said:Just seen two politicians in Bruxelles being interviewed on Ch 4. So articulate bright and clear thinking that any British person watching would be seriously jealous.
Why are our politicians so inarticulate arrogant and crap?
Still doesn't mean ours aren't really, really crap though.
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I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.Nigelb said:
I don’t think that’s going to fly, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
It’s blatantly obvious that running down the clock is, and has been, her strategy all along. It’s equally obvious that if the Commons lets that happen, they will risk running out of time to be able to engineer any other result than the one you outline.
The May filibuster is as unpalatable as the ERG one (and curiously, leaving May in place until the eleventh hour is probably now their best chance of forcing no deal). Even the slow wits in the Commons will work out pretty quickly that the strategy is to force a choice on the least unpleasant of two options, both of which they would otherwise vote to reject.
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
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It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.0 -
From whose perspective ?kle4 said:
Brexit is more important than party politics...Black_Rook said:
The problem with any scenario in which MPs vote for the Deal in a panic is that the DUP responds by terminating the Government. What happens if the DUP calls for a VoNC? Does Corbyn decline to back it? Do his MPs?Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through.
She then announces her successor contest and steps down once complete handing over to the new conservative PM
Now she could be vnoc by her party or labour in the meantime and this may be a fairy story but it could happen
DUP brings down May, DUP refuses to vote for Corbyn, DUP forces General Election. Labour would probably be quite happy with that. Would the Conservatives?
Certainly not from Corbyn’s. And probably not for quite a large slice of the Commons.
As for the electorate, around half of it doesn’t want Brexit at all. And the other half doesn’t agree on what Brexit.
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I do agree and no one has a clear vision of resolving the impasse. Too many mps all pulling in different directions with different agendasNigelb said:
I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.Nigelb said:
I don’t think that’s going to fly, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
It’s blatantly obvious that running down the clock is, and has been, her strategy all along. It’s equally obvious that if the Commons lets that happen, they will risk running out of time to be able to engineer any other result than the one you outline.
The May filibuster is as unpalatable as the ERG one (and curiously, leaving May in place until the eleventh hour is probably now their best chance of forcing no deal). Even the slow wits in the Commons will work out pretty quickly that the strategy is to force a choice on the least unpleasant of two options, both of which they would otherwise vote to reject.
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
Revoke A50 in March must be possible but that would light the blue touch paper big time
Simply - what a mess0 -
The Government can't be forced to revoke because the EU Withdrawal Act is on the statute book. We leave automatically unless it is repealed by March 29th, and MPs don't control the legislative timetable. The Government does.anothernick said:
If the Commons votes to revoke the government's would have to comply, just as they had to comply with the vote to release the AGs legal advice last week. The government's position is so weak that it could not possibly refuse, and if it comes to a vote to revoke it will be against a background of crisis, imminent food shortages and severe disruption. The only way of avoiding such a crisis at that stage will be to revoke.Pulpstar said:Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
MPs have certain rights, but they can't command Government in that way. If they could then the concept of there being a separate Government would cease to have any meaning. MPs would govern directly. No, if MPs are unhappy with a Government then their choice, ultimately, is to vote it out of office, or not.
The only way Parliament gets to revoke A50 is if the Government changes its mind, or the Government itself changes. Which means either May performs a 180-degree U-turn, or May quits or is deposed and her successor is amenable, or MPs vote out the Government and replace it with a new one that will do what they want, or MPs vote for a dissolution and a Remain-friendly Government emerges from the new Parliament.0 -
A Conservative Prime Minister comes back with a deal that Conservative MPs refuse to back - and it is Labour's fault. Get a grip.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.0 -
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.0 -
Indeed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I do agree and no one has a clear vision of resolving the impasse. Too many mps all pulling in different directions with different agendasNigelb said:
I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.Nigelb said:
I don’t think that’s going to fly, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
It’s blatantly obvious that running down the clock is, and has been, her strategy all along. It’s equally obvious that if the Commons lets that happen, they will risk running out of time to be able to engineer any other result than the one you outline.
The May filibuster is as unpalatable as the ERG one (and curiously, leaving May in place until the eleventh hour is probably now their best chance of forcing no deal). Even the slow wits in the Commons will work out pretty quickly that the strategy is to force a choice on the least unpleasant of two options, both of which they would otherwise vote to reject.
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
Revoke A50 in March must be possible but that would light the blue touch paper big time
Simply - what a mess
What could still unite a sizeable majority in the Commons would be a referendum which would include remain as well as May’s forced choice between her deal and no deal.... which would give everyone at last some chance of achieving what they want.
0 -
This mess is owned by everyone in one way or anotherFoxy said:
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.0 -
This is not true. Parliament does not have the power to force the executive to enact primary legislation. Personally I think it should have but right now it does not. Ordering the release of information is a very different matter to ordering the executive to revoke a piece of legislation.anothernick said:
If the Commons votes to revoke the government's would have to comply, just as they had to comply with the vote to release the AGs legal advice last week. The government's position is so weak that it could not possibly refuse, and if it comes to a vote to revoke it will be against a background of crisis, imminent food shortages and severe disruption. The only way of avoiding such a crisis at that stage will be to revoke.Pulpstar said:Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
0 -
Even if she had, she’d still need the votes of the DUP.Foxy said:
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
And Corbyn’s fence sitting likely contributed to the Leave vote in the first place.
0 -
Brexit for good or for bad is coloured blue.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
If it is a raging success, it was the Tories.
If it is a chaotic catastrophe, it was the Tories.0 -
I would be content with that and would hope remain would obtain a sizeable majorityNigelb said:
Indeed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I do agree and no one has a clear vision of resolving the impasse. Too many mps all pulling in different directions with different agendasNigelb said:
I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.Nigelb said:
I don’t think that’s going to fly, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
It’s blatantly obvious that running down the clock is, and has been, her strategy all along. It’s equally obvious that if the Commons lets that happen, they will risk running out of time to be able to engineer any other result than the one you outline.
The May filibuster is as unpalatable as the ERG one (and curiously, leaving May in place until the eleventh hour is probably now their best chance of forcing no deal). Even the slow wits in the Commons will work out pretty quickly that the strategy is to force a choice on the least unpleasant of two options, both of which they would otherwise vote to reject.
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
Revoke A50 in March must be possible but that would light the blue touch paper big time
Simply - what a mess
What could still unite a sizeable majority in the Commons would be a referendum which would include remain as well as May’s forced choice between her deal and no deal.... which would give everyone at last some chance of achieving what they want.0 -
Nope. Dave Cameron started it incompetently, Theresa May is finishing it in the same way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This mess is owned by everyone in one way or anotherFoxy said:
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
I have batterned down the hatches for a stormy sail. I pity those adrift without my resources and options.0 -
Regrettably no.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This mess is owned by everyone in one way or anotherFoxy said:
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
Blair was a massive cheerleader for ERM but benefited from Black Wednesday. The buck stops with the government.0 -
I think the most likely scenario is that after Christmas the sense of crisis will rapidly deepen, supermarkets will begin to warn of food shortages and other businesses of significant disruption. This will cause panic and the result is likely to be a revocation of article 50 by the Commons. This will be followed by either a referendum or general election, or possibly both.Foxy said:
Nope. Dave Cameron started it incompetently, Theresa May is finishing it in the same way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This mess is owned by everyone in one way or anotherFoxy said:
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
I have batterned down the hatches for a stormy sail. I pity those adrift without my resources and options.
It will be bumpy ride but I expect it to end in Remain.0 -
The executive does not initiate legislation though, rather individual ministers propose legislation in their capacity as members of either house. All other members of either house also have the right to initiate legislation. It's just that as the executive practically controls the timetables of both houses, their ability to do so is limited to the private members' ballot and 10-minute rule bills. If there was sufficient cross-bench support for a referendum bill, I don't see why that parliamentary revolt couldn't also oppose the government's legislative scheduling.Richard_Tyndall said:
This is not true. Parliament does not have the power to force the executive to enact primary legislation. Personally I think it should have but right now it does not. Ordering the release of information is a very different matter to ordering the executive to revoke a piece of legislation.anothernick said:
If the Commons votes to revoke the government's would have to comply, just as they had to comply with the vote to release the AGs legal advice last week. The government's position is so weak that it could not possibly refuse, and if it comes to a vote to revoke it will be against a background of crisis, imminent food shortages and severe disruption. The only way of avoiding such a crisis at that stage will be to revoke.Pulpstar said:Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
0 -
Time to challenge the backstop in the ECJTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
You keep repeating this but again it cannot happen against the will of the executive. If the Commons are intent on reversing the vote then the only way they can do it is by bringing down the Government.anothernick said:
I think the most likely scenario is that after Christmas the sense of crisis will rapidly deepen, supermarkets will begin to warn of food shortages and other businesses of significant disruption. This will cause panic and the result is likely to be a revocation of article 50 by the Commons. This will be followed by either a referendum or general election, or possibly both.Foxy said:
Nope. Dave Cameron started it incompetently, Theresa May is finishing it in the same way.Big_G_NorthWales said:
This mess is owned by everyone in one way or anotherFoxy said:
Nah. All the problems are down to May not having control of her own party. None of this mess is down to the people who voted against her.Theo said:
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
I have batterned down the hatches for a stormy sail. I pity those adrift without my resources and options.
It will be bumpy ride but I expect it to end in Remain.0 -
...but haven't the Executive agreed to it already?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Time to challenge the backstop in the ECJTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
On what grounds and who would have standing as our government has agreed to the backstop?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Time to challenge the backstop in the ECJTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Graham Brady suggested it is illegal this afternoonMexicanpete said:
...but haven't the Executive agreed to it already?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Time to challenge the backstop in the ECJTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Seriously, how could they possibly 'facilitate' it?TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
It has been suggested from different sources including Graham Brady this afternoon but I am no expertTheScreamingEagles said:
On what grounds and who would have standing as our government has agreed to the backstop?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Time to challenge the backstop in the ECJTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
-
Parliament agreed an end date by triggering A50 which meant no deal was a possibility, it was always legitimate.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Maybe the lesson is not to believe that random people on the internet actually are experts?Yorkcity said:May found that fairly easy pulling the vote.
Even when the experts on here said she could not.
Must be a lesson to be learnt.
As many Brexit supporters said do not trust so called experts.
Wish I had bet on my hunch , that May would pull the vote.
Anyone who takes her word for gospel is an idiot.0 -
Quite.kle4 said:
Parliament agreed an end date by triggering A50 which meant no deal was a possibility, it was always legitimate.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Even actual experts get things wrong.Stereotomy said:
Maybe the lesson is not to believe that random people on the internet actually are experts?Yorkcity said:May found that fairly easy pulling the vote.
Even when the experts on here said she could not.
Must be a lesson to be learnt.
As many Brexit supporters said do not trust so called experts.
Wish I had bet on my hunch , that May would pull the vote.
Anyone who takes her word for gospel is an idiot.0 -
It would still require organisation and direction, which without the structures and resources of government would be a difficult ask, especially given the qualities of your average MP.rpjs said:
The executive does not initiate legislation though, rather individual ministers propose legislation in their capacity as members of either house. All other members of either house also have the right to initiate legislation. It's just that as the executive practically controls the timetables of both houses, their ability to do so is limited to the private members' ballot and 10-minute rule bills. If there was sufficient cross-bench support for a referendum bill, I don't see why that parliamentary revolt couldn't also oppose the government's legislative scheduling.Richard_Tyndall said:
This is not true. Parliament does not have the power to force the executive to enact primary legislation. Personally I think it should have but right now it does not. Ordering the release of information is a very different matter to ordering the executive to revoke a piece of legislation.anothernick said:
If the Commons votes to revoke the government's would have to comply, just as they had to comply with the vote to release the AGs legal advice last week. The government's position is so weak that it could not possibly refuse, and if it comes to a vote to revoke it will be against a background of crisis, imminent food shortages and severe disruption. The only way of avoiding such a crisis at that stage will be to revoke.Pulpstar said:Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
0 -
Then if Parliament won't back her deal and she still won't budge, Parliament will have to vote the Government out and find a new one to replace it.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.0
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“You can’t negotiate with extremists...” as female Labour MPs, Jewish Labour MPs and moderate Labour MPs have learnt to their cost.TheJezziah said:Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.0 -
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Absolutely. And being an expert doesn't make them apolitical.kle4 said:
Even actual experts get things wrong.Stereotomy said:
Maybe the lesson is not to believe that random people on the internet actually are experts?Yorkcity said:May found that fairly easy pulling the vote.
Even when the experts on here said she could not.
Must be a lesson to be learnt.
As many Brexit supporters said do not trust so called experts.
Wish I had bet on my hunch , that May would pull the vote.
Anyone who takes her word for gospel is an idiot.
But expertise does play some role in evaluating somebody's statements, so we should at least know how to recognise it0 -
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.Xenon said:
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
In office but not in power.kle4 said:I think Macron really wants a quiet weekend next week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-465131890 -
She'll have to wait ages to get the medalsolarflare said:The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
0 -
When should have have planned to hold a border poll and Scottish independence referendum?Xenon said:
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
They will write Theresa a nice helpful letter that she can bring back and show to her friends.kle4 said:
Seriously, how could they possibly 'facilitate' it?TheScreamingEagles said:0
