Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
“You can’t negotiate with extremists...” as female Labour MPs, Jewish Labour MPs and moderate Labour MPs have learnt to their cost.
Quick send urgent messages to Westminster - someone with the internet handle ‘The Jezziah’ has had it with the Conservatives. Also a bear has gone into the woods for a number 2 and seemingly the Pope has something to do with the Catholic Church.
Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.
Brexit for good or for bad is coloured blue.
If it is a raging success, it was the Tories.
If it is a chaotic catastrophe, it was the Tories.
Absolutely right. Who is bothered that the Tories voted for the Iraq War when Blair was in office, or argued for more deregulation under Brown?
Seriously, how could they possibly 'facilitate' it?
I think Tusk means that if the UK government asks the EU, it would be helpful if you back us up when we say this or that, the EU will do so as long as they don't have to change anything substantive.
They already did this when the UK government concocted a £39 billion exit fee and pretended it had whittled the amount down thorough hard negotiation. The EU won't point out the amount will actually be significantly higher than this and they didn't give away much at all. They are happy to give the UK government the credit if they get the money.
Labour MPs shouldn't give in to blackmail from hard right xenophobic nationalists.
Vote down Mays deal, do not give her any leverage. She should not be trusted an inch.
If the nutters in the Conservative party want to harm the country so much then we cannot actually stop them.
What we can do is concentrate on the positive side of this outcome in showing up the Conservative party for everything they stand for.
You cannot negotiate with extremists. I've had it with the Conservatives, they are a polite version of Trump's Republicans with the odd fancy bit of Latin thrown in to dazzle the easily impressed.
It is Labour ideological zealots that have refused to vote for any possible deal and forcing a choice between no deal crash or democratic disgrace. The leadership wants the first and the MPs want the second. If we crash out it should be made crystal clear the majority of Tories supported a deal to prevent it and Labour voted it down. They are liars and nutcases.
Brexit for good or for bad is coloured blue.
If it is a raging success, it was the Tories.
If it is a chaotic catastrophe, it was the Tories.
Absolutely right. Who is bothered that the Tories voted for the Iraq War when Blair was in office, or argued for more deregulation under Brown?
Another disastrous consequence of the thickies voting for IDS instead of Ken in 2001
May found that fairly easy pulling the vote. Even when the experts on here said she could not.
Must be a lesson to be learnt. As many Brexit supporters said do not trust so called experts.
Wish I had bet on my hunch , that May would pull the vote. Anyone who takes her word for gospel is an idiot.
There was confusion between cancelling the MV (which she can't do) and postponing it (which she can, despite the Speaker's clear direction that she shouldn't)
Long-Bailey continuing the nutty Labour line. Apparently they want to stay in the customs union but have the right to strike independent trade deals. Ho hum.
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
Parliament agreed an end date by triggering A50 which meant no deal was a possibility, it was always legitimate.
It’s a deranged article by a rogue journalist! I’m not a leaver but now is not the time to say that if we voted leave then leaving would be a mistake. If it weren’t for my own economic future I’d love for there to be a second referendum where Leave won again. The bleating by the extreme remainers for whom there is no too ludicrous an avenue to travel whilst trying to delegitimise the election result.
I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.
I do agree and no one has a clear vision of resolving the impasse. Too many mps all pulling in different directions with different agendas
Revoke A50 in March must be possible but that would light the blue touch paper big time
Simply - what a mess
Indeed. What could still unite a sizeable majority in the Commons would be a referendum which would include remain as well as May’s forced choice between her deal and no deal.... which would give everyone at last some chance of achieving what they want.
I would be content with that and would hope remain would obtain a sizeable majority
It didn't last time when it had the full weight of the state behind it, why on earth do you think it'd win now ?
Next question is whether the MV is rescheduled before the Commons recess ion 20/12. If the strategy s run down the clock and allow a crisis to build then leaving the MV till January makes sense. Markets will hate it and it will maximise the economic damage as well as social tension. All may be useful in forcing passage. But nature abhors a vacuum and the danger May is toppled is the longer vacuum grows.
1. May goes to Brussels, manages to find a magic unicorn that pleases everyone in fairly short time, MPs line up to sing her praises and erect a statue on Parliament Green, and back the deal. Chances - zero.
2. May goes back to Brussels, doesn’t get very far but has a Damascene conversion and calls a second referendum. Chances - highly unlikely in my view. She’s have called the vote today if she really was going to bend that way.
3. Brussels renegotiations becomes protracted, May runs the clock down and stages an eleventh hour vote when MPs can see no deal in the whites of their eyes. They hold their noses and it passes. Chances - at the moment that seems the most likely to me.
4. Repeat the above but May loses the vote and we crash out. Chances - conceivable but unlikely given the strength of feeling against no deal.
5. At some point in all this farrago MPs vote to extend/withdraw article 50. Chances - probably quite good at least on the extension front but I’m not sure if their decision is binding? Any parliamentary procedural bods want to help me here?
6. VONC in May. At this stage I don’t even know if we can predict what demons that would unleash. Chances - scarily good.
7. VONC in the government. See above re demons. Possibly Corbyn shaped. Chances - how likely that is depends on how much you trust the DUP. Not sure I do.
Have I missed any?
Extinction-event level meteorite strike ends the need to consider options 1 to 7 further.
Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
It depends on whether parliament has the authority to say A50 is not in accordance with UK constitutional principles.. it could end up in the UK Supreme Court, I'mI thinking.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yes and therefore showing the EU that they could offer any deal and she would have to accept.
One of many unforced errors in the negotiation.
That depends on what would have happened in the alternative scenario. If (and of course it is debateable) big businesses went public with their concerns and started pulling investment decisions in the UK, it could easily have snowballed into an atmosphere of panic even less conducive to a successful negotiation.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Is Cherry correct here, can the Commons revoke art 50 without the government ?
It depends on whether parliament has the authority to say A50 is not in accordance with UK constitutional principles.. it could end up in the UK Supreme Court, I'mI thinking.
Wouldn't it require primary legislation ?
The most likely scenario is a cross-party gun to the head of the government. Then either the government brings forward the necessary postponement (which faced with no deal they will probably want to do anyway) or they get brought down and replaced.
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
This, this and more this ^^^
It's very easy to be an armchair negotiator. The government has all sorts of pressures on it and considerations to take into account that we can't fully appreciate.
Your endless, tireless attempts to equivocate on the government’s railway record are so reliable I assume you must be on their payroll. This administration’s record on the railways is utterly abject, by any fair metric.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
This is it. Finding the difference between May's Deal and Labour's ideal Deal is splitting hairs. Their opposition can only be explained by their prizing a GE over the good of the country.
Yet Labour still trail the Tories with Yougov today anyway
Well - Yougov has been the most pro-Tory of the pollsters for several months now, and today's figures do imply a small 0.7% swing in Labour's favour since June 2017. It would imply another Hung Parliament but with the Tories sufficiently weakened to be unable to carry on - despite still being the largest party.
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.
I do agree and no one has a clear vision of resolving the impasse. Too many mps all pulling in different directions with different agendas
Revoke A50 in March must be possible but that would light the blue touch paper big time
Simply - what a mess
Indeed. What could still unite a sizeable majority in the Commons would be a referendum which would include remain as well as May’s forced choice between her deal and no deal.... which would give everyone at last some chance of achieving what they want.
I would be content with that and would hope remain would obtain a sizeable majority
It didn't last time when it had the full weight of the state behind it, why on earth do you think it'd win now ?
Being the "government's option" was one of remain's principal handicaps. People love giving the government a kick in any sort of vote that isn't a GE. At least next time that, officially, will be the deal option.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Yes, I can imagine a naked threat to raise the barricades at Crossmaglen and deploy patrol boats on the Foyle would have been a real hoot these last two years.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
This is it. Finding the difference between May's Deal and Labour's ideal Deal is splitting hairs. Their opposition can only be explained by their prizing a GE over the good of the country.
Yet Labour still trail the Tories with Yougov today anyway
Well - Yougov has been the most pro-Tory of the pollsters for several months now, and today's figures do imply a small 0.7% swing in Labour's favour since June 2017. It would imply another Hung Parliament but with the Tories sufficiently weakened to be unable to carry on - despite still being the largest party.
Sound of straws being grasped. If you think things are being run poorly now imagine a world where Corbyn is PM but has to run all his decisions through the SNP, DUP, Libdems, Plaid and Greens, with all of them wanting to make political points to differentiate and not appear to be pro government and suffer like the LDs in 2015. We will be looking back fondly on the simple Brexit negotiations!
Macron versus the gilets jaunes reminds me of Thatcher versus the miners in the eighties. The same lack of empathy and conviction that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
This is it. Finding the difference between May's Deal and Labour's ideal Deal is splitting hairs. Their opposition can only be explained by their prizing a GE over the good of the country.
Yet Labour still trail the Tories with Yougov today anyway
Well - Yougov has been the most pro-Tory of the pollsters for several months now, and today's figures do imply a small 0.7% swing in Labour's favour since June 2017. It would imply another Hung Parliament but with the Tories sufficiently weakened to be unable to carry on - despite still being the largest party.
Projecting from current polls to an election result is even more pointless now than usual. The circumstances of an election coming about, which party leaders stay and which go, and the Brexit resolutions the parties choose to stand on (and the extent of unity around them) will all have a dramatic impact on the campaign.
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
First a mea culpa. You may as well award me the 2018 Rogerdamus award right now - I said that the vote on the Deal would pass. I thought the ERG would tap out like Gove and swing behind the deal.
WRONG.
In fairness, though, we'll never know how wrong I was. Shall we say, oh, gosh, four votes?
A note, though, on the CJEU's judgment this morning. They didn't appear to go with the AG on the question of whether A50 revocability was dependent on it not being 'abusive', which seems to give the Govt rather more leeway (at least at law) to revoke. The CJEU was clear, though, that the terms of revocation would to be to leave the UK's terms of membership unchanged - a very clear statement that whatever the route to a UK Remain, it would be not a Cameremain (2016 votes: 16,141,241) but a Premain (2016 votes: 0). Is nobody else using those terms yet?
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Yes, I can imagine a naked threat to raise the barricades at Crossmaglen and deploy patrol boats on the Foyle would have been a real hoot these last two years.
If it had been said and then we had a political declaration like we do now to find common ground then we would have been in the same position as now but moving away from the no deal not towards it.
I have no idea where this is going. Indeed I do not think TM has any idea where it is going.
If I take a guess she is playing for time and the holiday period. Then in January she will bring the deal back with some wording adjustments and this time take it to the vote, come what may
At that time we will be little over 8 weeks away with no deal default. A second referendum will still not be more than a hope and certainly several months away. She gambles that the pubic and all of us have had enough, including labour mps, and the deal goes through...
The only thing in her favour is that a Tory leadership chance would be even less predictable in terms of achievable outcomes.
There is a likely a majority in the Commons for a referendum... if they can agree on its terms.
I think there is because it is a remain dominated HOC. However, TM is implacably opposed to it and by mid January it will be too late for March and the May EU elections.
I believe TM , rightly or wrongly, is staking everything on running down the clock and knows her Premiership is now very precarious so she has nothing to lose
I think you are right - but, as I said, her strategy is obvious, and if something is going to give, it will do so quite soon. Delay helps no one but May and the ERG.
I do agree and no one has a clear vision of resolving the impasse. Too many mps all pulling in different directions with different agendas
Revoke A50 in March must be possible but that would light the blue touch paper big time
Simply - what a mess
Indeed. What could still unite a sizeable majority in the Commons would be a referendum which would include remain as well as May’s forced choice between her deal and no deal.... which would give everyone at last some chance of achieving what they want.
I would be content with that and would hope remain would obtain a sizeable majority
It didn't last time when it had the full weight of the state behind it, why on earth do you think it'd win now ?
Because some leavers will not back no deal, more than remainers will not back remain because they respect the first vote, virtually no one in public life will advocate for the deal, and so on.
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
He'll have his own answer, but it is not impossible perhaps that someone might think that given the desires that led to a leave vote just ignoring it as though it never happened is not a long term solution.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Yes, I can imagine a naked threat to raise the barricades at Crossmaglen and deploy patrol boats on the Foyle would have been a real hoot these last two years.
If it had been said and then we had a political declaration like we do now to find common ground then we would have been in the same position as now but moving away from the no deal not towards it.
You clearly have precisely zero grasp of Irish politics. You don’t use the border as a bargaining chip.
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
I think Alastair believes in the necessity of a period of purgatory, where we suffer for our Brexit sins that we may repent of them. Which is a bit tough on the rest of us, but there you go.
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
First a mea culpa. You may as well award me the 2018 Rogerdamus award right now - I said that the vote on the Deal would pass. I thought the ERG would tap out like Gove and swing behind the deal.
WRONG.
In fairness, though, we'll never know how wrong I was. Shall we say, oh, gosh, four votes?
A note, though, on the CJEU's judgment this morning. They didn't appear to go with the AG on the question of whether A50 revocability was dependent on it not being 'abusive', which seems to give the Govt rather more leeway (at least at law) to revoke. The CJEU was clear, though, that the terms of revocation would to be to leave the UK's terms of membership unchanged - a very clear statement that whatever the route to a UK Remain, it would be not a Cameremain (2016 votes: 16,141,241) but a Premain (2016 votes: 0). Is nobody else using those terms yet?
Not yet, but keep going, I've been trying to shoehorn 'continuity remainer' into common parlance for years with no success.
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
I think Alastair believes in the necessity of a period of purgatory, where we suffer for our Brexit sins that we may repent of them. Which is a bit tough on the rest of us, but there you go.
There is definable faction on PB that occupy that ground. TSE is another member. It was obvious from the very beginning that we should have gone EEA+backstop but a word cloud prevented us from doing so. Just ask @RichardTyndall
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
As opposed to a highly disrupted bottom tier nation outside of the EU ?
As I pointed out, Alanbrooke’s article was essentially self contradictory, arguing on the one hand that we would have zero influence, while on the other that politics within Europe was tending in our direction.
I’d accept May’s deal, if she were able to get the Commons to vote for it, but she can’t. I won’t readily accept an enforced game of chicken between her deal and no deal - the majority’s least favoured outcome.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
I read recently that the 2016 Leave majority will literally have died off by the end of next month. An extraordinary stat, but true apparently!
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it
As opposed to a highly disrupted bottom tier nation outside of the EU ?
As I pointed out, Alanbrooke’s article was essentially self contradictory, arguing on the one hand that we would have zero influence, while on the other that politics within Europe was tending in our direction.
I’d accept May’s deal, if she were able to get the Commons to vote for it, but she can’t. I won’t readily accept an enforced game of chicken between her deal and no deal - the majority’s least favoured outcome.
Fair. That’s a perfect summary of my position too, which I have been struggling to articulate until now. Thanks.
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation .
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
Whereas currently many Remainers think they have been cheated (but haven’t resorted to, or even threatened, violence)
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
I worry that if a No-Deal Brexit goes through, even though Parliamentarians are against it and think it should not happen, and if it causes the sort of economic disruption we've been warned about, such a result would be just as corrosive of public belief in democracy and, indeed, the role of Parliament, as a revocation of Brexit. Voters will not blame themselves. They will blame MPs for having allowed something bad to happen even though they knew it was potentially harmful. They will blame those who misled them or those who used improper tactics to win the referendum. Etc etc.
There are no cost free easy options left. I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
As opposed to a highly disrupted bottom tier nation outside of the EU ?
As I pointed out, Alanbrooke’s article was essentially self contradictory, arguing on the one hand that we would have zero influence, while on the other that politics within Europe was tending in our direction.
I’d accept May’s deal, if she were able to get the Commons to vote for it, but she can’t. I won’t readily accept an enforced game of chicken between her deal and no deal - the majority’s least favoured outcome.
If May won't budge, her party won't get rid of her, and Parliament will neither swallow her deal nor vote to remove the Government, then we end up with Hard Brexit by default.
The fact that most MPs would probably rather just cancel the whole thing is completely irrelevant if they lack the will to take the necessary action.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for atement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
So it needs to be decisive. So things need to get worse before it can be called. What we are going through now will disillusion mostly those who don't care very much, and is a political crisis rather than a real world one. The soft Brexiters will peel away when they see the lorry coming towards us, leaving just the EGR'ers standing in the road.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation .
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
Whereas currently many Remainers think they have been cheated (but haven’t resorted to, or even threatened, violence)
Any leave overspend was dwarfed by the amount the government spent on that pamphlet.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
I worry that if a No-Deal Brexit goes through, even though Parliamentarians are against it and think it should not happen, and if it causes the sort of economic disruption we've been warned about, such a result would be just as corrosive of public belief in democracy and, indeed, the role of Parliament, as a revocation of Brexit. Voters will not blame themselves. They will blame MPs for having allowed something bad to happen even though they knew it was potentially harmful. They will blame those who misled them or those who used improper tactics to win the referendum. Etc etc.
There are no cost free easy options left. I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
Beautifully argued. I am slowly coming around to that position. Indeed every threat of violence and/or rioting brings me closer to it. As I say below, I do not see such threats from Remainers.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
I read recently that the 2016 Leave majority will literally have died off by the end of next month. An extraordinary stat, but true apparently!
Who said that - Dr Fox (Neil or Liam)?
"There's no actual evidence for it, but it is scientific fact"
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern .
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
Well we were talking about least worst options. If we are to choose between them, we should at least have a choice of all the options.
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
As opposed to a highly disrupted bottom tier nation outside of the EU ?
As I pointed out, Alanbrooke’s article was essentially self contradictory, arguing on the one hand that we would have zero influence, while on the other that politics within Europe was tending in our direction.
I’d accept May’s deal, if she were able to get the Commons to vote for it, but she can’t. I won’t readily accept an enforced game of chicken between her deal and no deal - the majority’s least favoured outcome.
If May won't budge, her party won't get rid of her, and Parliament will neither swallow her deal nor vote to remove the Government, then we end up with Hard Brexit by default.
The fact that most MPs would probably rather just cancel the whole thing is completely irrelevant if they lack the will to take the necessary action.
Their will will build, but will their will build sufficiently while there is still time to act?
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation .
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
Whereas currently many Remainers think they have been cheated (but haven’t resorted to, or even threatened, violence)
Indeed, the #peoplesvote march in October was not only very large, it was impeccably behaved and self policed. There was a far bigger turnout than either police and stewards expected, yet not even any litter. It was the very model of well behaved British people, like a giant queue.
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
It's clear from what May said today that she isn't even going to ask the EU for what the DUP wants.
So the current strategy makes no sense - even if she runs down the clock such that somehow Parliament does vote for her deal in January that would then collapse the Govt anyway assuming DUP sticks to its word.
So surely Con backbenchers - whatever their views on Brexit - have to now see that May cannot now be their optimal leader. Their next step has to be to get a leader who will get the DUP back on side.
What happens after that, who knows. But the above has to be their optimal next step.
The only good news today was that Theresa May finally qualified for the Can-Kicking Olympics,to follow up on her triple gold-medal-winning success in the recent Can-Kicking World Championships.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Yes, I can imagine a naked threat to raise the barricades at Crossmaglen and deploy patrol boats on the Foyle would have been a real hoot these last two years.
If it had been said and then we had a political declaration like we do now to find common ground then we would have been in the same position as now but moving away from the no deal not towards it.
You clearly have precisely zero grasp of Irish politics. You don’t use the border as a bargaining chip.
I think you are being extremely naive if you can’t see that the Irish border is already a bargaining chip. Clearly I am not advocating a hard border as an end state, but as a fixed position where A50 leads and then a basis of negotiating to move away from by agreement.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation .
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
Whereas currently many Remainers think they have been cheated (but haven’t resorted to, or even threatened, violence)
Indeed, the #peoplesvote march in October was not only very large, it was impeccably behaved and self policed. There was a far bigger turnout than either police and stewards expected, yet not even any litter. It was the very model of well behaved British people, like a giant queue.
In Germany. Out of the loop. What’s the general vibe. From here it looks like May prioritising saving her own skin. Bad form. Is that true?
Looks that way. Bizarre, frankly, as its a questions of days and weeks, and yet for some reason even though they've known for weeks they were going to lose the vote, at the last minute they decided they government would fall afterwards and, just admitting the vote the would be lost will somehow keep the 48 letters going in.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation .
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
If there has to be a second referendum it will have to be fulfilled. But that won’t take away the feeling that many Leavers would feel that they had been cheated and they would be likely to look beyond democracy.
Whereas currently many Remainers think they have been cheated (but haven’t resorted to, or even threatened, violence)
Indeed, the #peoplesvote march in October was not only very large, it was impeccably behaved and self policed. There was a far bigger turnout than either police and stewards expected, yet not even any litter. It was the very model of well behaved British people, like a giant queue.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
I worry that if a No-Deal Brexit goes through, even though Parliamentarians are against it and think it should not happen, and if it causes the sort of economic disruption we've been warned about, such a result would be just as corrosive of public belief in democracy and, indeed, the role of Parliament, as a revocation of Brexit. Voters will not blame themselves. They will blame MPs for having allowed something bad to happen even though they knew it was potentially harmful. They will blame those who misled them or those who used improper tactics to win the referendum. Etc etc.
There are no cost free easy options left. I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
Thank you. Presumably you'd take a different view if we Remained as a result of a second vote?
I read recently that the 2016 Leave majority will literally have died off by the end of next month. An extraordinary stat, but true apparently!
Who said that - Dr Fox (Neil or Liam)?
"There's no actual evidence for it, but it is scientific fact"
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different w
SNIP
better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
Beautifully argued. I am slowly coming around to that position. Indeed every threat of violence and/or rioting brings me closer to it. As I say below, I do not see such threats from Remainers.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Yes, I can imagine a naked threat to raise the barricades at Crossmaglen and deploy patrol boats on the Foyle would have been a real hoot these last two years.
If it had been said and then we had a political declaration like we do now to find common ground then we would have been in the same position as now but moving away from the no deal not towards it.
You clearly have precisely zero grasp of Irish politics. You don’t use the border as a bargaining chip.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
I worry that if a No-Deal Brexit goes through, even though Parliamentarians are against it and think it should not happen, and if it causes the sort of economic disruption we've been warned about, such a result would be just as corrosive of public belief in democracy and, indeed, the role of Parliament, as a revocation of Brexit. Voters will not blame themselves. They will blame MPs for having allowed something bad to happen even though they knew it was potentially harmful. They will blame those who misled them or those who used improper tactics to win the referendum. Etc etc.
There are no cost free easy options left. I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
Beautifully argued. I am slowly coming around to that position. Indeed every threat of violence and/or rioting brings me closer to it. As I say below, I do not see such threats from Remainers.
You’ve had a couple of people on an internet board say they fear it would be the outcome. Hate to break it to you but that not the same as a real world threat
I worry that if a No-Deal Brexit goes through, even though Parliamentarians are against it and think it should not happen, and if it causes the sort of economic disruption we've been warned about, such a result would be just as corrosive of public belief in democracy and, indeed, the role of Parliament, as a revocation of Brexit. Voters will not blame themselves. They will blame MPs for having allowed something bad to happen even though they knew it was potentially harmful. They will blame those who misled them or those who used improper tactics to win the referendum. Etc etc.
There are no cost free easy options left. I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
Quite. Pro-EU MPs (or the majority of them that were in the 2015 Parliament and voted for the referendum) created the problem that they are now wrestling with. It should be their responsibility to solve it, rather than either passing the buck back to the people again, or allowing something that they think disastrous to happen by default.
If you think Brexit a catastrophe then stop it. Desist from parroting rubbish about the national interest, act in what you believe to be the national interest. Form a new Government, revoke A50 and repeal all the withdrawal legislation. Then vote for a dissolution and subject yourselves to the people's judgement at a General Election.
Sorry, I know I've been banging on a bit about this recently, but the last few years has convinced me that referendums have little or no place in Parliamentary democracies. Or, at any rate, the last couple that we've held have been angry, divisive blood-lettings. The fallout from them has been awful. Let Parliament make decisions, and then let people sack Parliamentarians if they don't like them. Done.
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
As opposed to a highly disrupted bottom tier nation outside of the EU ?
As I pointed out, Alanbrooke’s article was essentially self contradictory, arguing on the one hand that we would have zero influence, while on the other that politics within Europe was tending in our direction.
I’d accept May’s deal, if she were able to get the Commons to vote for it, but she can’t. I won’t readily accept an enforced game of chicken between her deal and no deal - the majority’s least favoured outcome.
If May won't budge, her party won't get rid of her, and Parliament will neither swallow her deal nor vote to remove the Government, then we end up with Hard Brexit by default.
The fact that most MPs would probably rather just cancel the whole thing is completely irrelevant if they lack the will to take the necessary action.
Agreed. Which is why it’s important they realise that sooner rather than later. May is not the only one with a tendency to prevaricate (though she has turned it into an art form).
What commends you to this deal? As a Remainer I really don't like the deal for much of the reasons spelled out by Johnson vis-a-vis the vassal state argument. In fact I will still hate this deal when Robbins returns from Brussels with some vacuous statement regarding the backstop, something that I daresay will placate Johnson, Davis, JRM and Raab.
If Mrs May can successfully run the clock down to Jan 21 I agree this is then the only option left to the HoC.
It’s a shit deal. The only other two options - no deal Brexit and Remaining - are in different ways worse.
I agree with you that a No Deal Brexit is worse. But why do you say that about Remaining, given that you voted Remain in the referendum?
Because though I don’t like it the public voted for Leave and are entitled to see it seen through. Not to see it through would be hugely corrosive for public belief in democracy and would lead, as @Alanbrooke rightly pointed out yesterday, to a Britain that was a bottom tier nation within the EU and one that was highly disruptive.
I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
If they cannot countenance no deal then that is exactly what they should do, rather than either risk that no deal scenario in a referendum or put deal vs remain on the ballot to fix up an outcome. As you say tehre would be a backlash, but if they don't think no deal is an acceptable choice and will refuse to do it, don't even bother asking us. After all, most (not all) referendum advocates are such because they think remain will win. We know this because it is rare it is framed as merely being about a choice, it is much more common to see it as 'Brexit can be stopped' 'have a vote to stop brexit' and so on. But if no deal would win clearly they would no follow through as they refuse to accept it as a possibility. Ergo there is no need to ask us. Do it, then face the consequences.
Something May should have been doing since before triggering Article 50.
Except that she promised big business that there would be a deal. They aren't going to be very happy right now.
Yep, should have threatened and prepared for no deal from the start and negotiated from there.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
I’ve said all along we should have started from No Deal and works inwards. It was the only way to negotiate with someone like the EU. And we should have said that we were going to have a hard border in Ireland, and we would look at ways to mitigate. The U.K. voted to leave and NI is part of that. If Ireland wanted to avoid a hard border then they could trigger article 50 and leave too
Yes, I can imagine a naked threat to raise the barricades at Crossmaglen and deploy patrol boats on the Foyle would have been a real hoot these last two years.
If it had been said and then we had a political declaration like we do now to find common ground then we would have been in the same position as now but moving away from the no deal not towards it.
You clearly have precisely zero grasp of Irish politics. You don’t use the border as a bargaining chip.
Comments
They already did this when the UK government concocted a £39 billion exit fee and pretended it had whittled the amount down thorough hard negotiation. The EU won't point out the amount will actually be significantly higher than this and they didn't give away much at all. They are happy to give the UK government the credit if they get the money.
One of many unforced errors in the negotiation.
Instead we started assuming there would be an amazing deal, and are now panicking and starting to prepare for no deal without enough time.
Amateur hour
Your endless, tireless attempts to equivocate on the government’s railway record are so reliable I assume you must be on their payroll. This administration’s record on the railways is utterly abject, by any fair metric.
WRONG.
In fairness, though, we'll never know how wrong I was. Shall we say, oh, gosh, four votes?
A note, though, on the CJEU's judgment this morning. They didn't appear to go with the AG on the question of whether A50 revocability was dependent on it not being 'abusive', which seems to give the Govt rather more leeway (at least at law) to revoke. The CJEU was clear, though, that the terms of revocation would to be to leave the UK's terms of membership unchanged - a very clear statement that whatever the route to a UK Remain, it would be not a Cameremain (2016 votes: 16,141,241) but a Premain (2016 votes: 0). Is nobody else using those terms yet?
Which is a bit tough on the rest of us, but there you go.
As I pointed out, Alanbrooke’s article was essentially self contradictory, arguing on the one hand that we would have zero influence, while on the other that politics within Europe was tending in our direction.
I’d accept May’s deal, if she were able to get the Commons to vote for it, but she can’t. I won’t readily accept an enforced game of chicken between her deal and no deal - the majority’s least favoured outcome.
There are no cost free easy options left. I do wonder whether it might be better for Parliament to take the decision it feels is best for the nation and, if that means revoking Article 50, taking the consequences of that. It might, I realise, lead to a backlash from the Farages and Tommy Robinsons of this world but, maybe, best to face these people down rather than go along with a course of action you think deeply unwise and still face a backlash.
The fact that most MPs would probably rather just cancel the whole thing is completely irrelevant if they lack the will to take the necessary action.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46468409
"There's no actual evidence for it, but it is scientific fact"
If we are to choose between them, we should at least have a choice of all the options.
He and Blair are equally deluded.
So the current strategy makes no sense - even if she runs down the clock such that somehow Parliament does vote for her deal in January that would then collapse the Govt anyway assuming DUP sticks to its word.
So surely Con backbenchers - whatever their views on Brexit - have to now see that May cannot now be their optimal leader. Their next step has to be to get a leader who will get the DUP back on side.
What happens after that, who knows. But the above has to be their optimal next step.
https://youtu.be/BZwuTo7zKM8
I’d like to see Mandy back - he’s an incredibly able man.
If you think Brexit a catastrophe then stop it. Desist from parroting rubbish about the national interest, act in what you believe to be the national interest. Form a new Government, revoke A50 and repeal all the withdrawal legislation. Then vote for a dissolution and subject yourselves to the people's judgement at a General Election.
Sorry, I know I've been banging on a bit about this recently, but the last few years has convinced me that referendums have little or no place in Parliamentary democracies. Or, at any rate, the last couple that we've held have been angry, divisive blood-lettings. The fallout from them has been awful. Let Parliament make decisions, and then let people sack Parliamentarians if they don't like them. Done.
May is not the only one with a tendency to prevaricate (though she has turned it into an art form).
This took literally one second to google.
https://apple.news/ASS9Z9IFlRmOtHTK5u-_lgw