The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
We should all bear in mind that a Parliamentary vote to stop Brexit would establish one convention - that referendums are worthless - and confirm another - that Parliament can do whatever it likes. A future Parliament that contains a Government elected with a working majority on a manifesto commitment to Brexit can dispense with the need for another referendum altogether, and act based on its ually. All they need is sufficient votes in the right places, and it will no longer matter in the least whether or not the majority of the population is against them.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
Why not? View the Tories and Labour as like coalitions.
Under PR they could be in the same government via a coalition but we have no knowledge of that before votes are counted and a coalition is formed.
At least under FPTP we know that they're in the same coalition before the election.
"We remain committed to the GFA", she says. But the government has to be - it's an international treaty with no equivalent of Lisbon's A50 or the NATO treaty's A13.
But commitment to the GFA in legal terms is very limited in its scope. So for example there is not one word in it about the nature of the border. It is entirely open to interpretation.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
Was I, please share these views of mine with us all
You on the other hand really are ok with xenophobia, real xenophobia in your choice of countries to have second and third homes in.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
We should all bear in mind that a Parliamentary vote to stop Brexit would establish one convention - that referendums are worthless - and confirm another - that Parliament can do whatever it likes. A future Parliament that contains a Government elected with a working majority on a manifesto commitment to Brexit can dispense with the need for another referendum altogether, and act based on its ually. All they need is sufficient votes in the right places, and it will no longer matter in the least whether or not the majority of the population is against them.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
But Grieve and Umunna should be in the same party as should Mogg and Corbyn.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
At the moment Brexit looks in great peril. The dimwitted way in which Leavers have sought to grind Remain supporters into the dust has ensured that the country will be riven on the subject for decades, whatever happens now.
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
An "interesting" day if febrile panic is your kind of interesting.
After this morning's (yes, that long ago!) assertion the vote would take place, May has clearly realised the reality of the defeat facing her and unlike Gladstone on Home Rule has decided the pre-Christmas dinner offering of humiliation followed by her head on a platter (tete farcie avec quarante-huit cahiers) wasn't that appealing.
For all the ERG were mocked on here last month during the coup that never was we now have a similar retreat from May but instead of condemnation we get obsequious admiration from the usual suspects. Let's be clear - May is not to be "admired", May is "not showing stamina", she's doing a job for which she is very well paid and a job she chooses to do. She reminds me more and more of Gordon Brown with an overactive sense of duty gland but the truth is she is like the lab animal in the cage running out of exits, time and road to kick a can down.
Moving on from the Prime Minister to the blunderings of her opponents outside the Conservative Party. Corbyn wants to be Prime Minister of a Labour Government - I get that, I really do but a VoNC in the Commons isn't going to achieve that because the DUP will at worst abstain or, much more likely, back the Conservatives.
In any case, there's no guarantee Corbyn will win a GE - he's a repulsive figure to many and his party's policies are either feared or scorned (delete as appropriate) by a significant group of the population.
Vince Cable has no business playing Labour's games - I'm not sure what a GE and change of Government would achieve at this time - and there's no mileage for the LDs in being seen to be too close to Corbyn. If I were Vince, I'd be talking to Nicola Sturgeon to see what a future bloc of 50+ MPs might be able to extract from the two main parties (assuming neither of them has split in the next few months).
Withy this morning's ECJ ruling we are effectively down to two options - revoke A50 owed back.
As all this plays out, meanwhile, the overall economic picture darkens.
One of your finest and fairest posts ever.
Well said!
Hardly. He has gotten pretty ad hominem and nasty, generically dismissing people and misrepresenting through over simplification, while acting above it all because others dare to be a bit political..
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
How would PR make the current situation any more manageable? You cannot know the components of a future parliament and who will be made to work with who. A Grieve party and a Mogg party might in the future be the only viable combination in a future parliament for arguments sake! Equally a Umunna party and a Corbyn might only work in an alternative scenario. In an ideal world Grieve & Umunna would get together and govern but that would only be durable until the usual political cycle of decay for governing parties kicks them into touch as it inevitably will. All PR will achieve is more political deadlock as single issue parties become more entrenched and coalitions of the willing become harder to achieve.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
At the moment Brexit looks in great peril. The dimwitted way in which Leavers have sought to grind Remain supporters into the dust has ensured that the country will be riven on the subject for decades, whatever happens now.
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
I disagree - the issue needs the oxygen of a "chance" of overturning the referendum result. Once that has gone when we are out the circus will move on.
EUref2 is now clearly the only way forward given the Commons have refused to back the only Deal on the table and it opposes No Deal
Whats the question ?
Remain v Leave, if Leave wins a second question of Deal or No Deal
Then a third question of Deal or Deal with no backstop etc etc ?
Then a forth..
No that is the final question, Deal with backstop or No Deal if Leave wins. No further referendums, we proceed on that basis. End of conversation
I think the nation was told the last referendum would be the end of the conversation...
Nobody knew what Leave meant last time, given a choice of Deal or No Deal Leave everyone will know this time
This is a bogus argument. Nobody knew what In meant in 1975 and the terms changed five times but we didn't get another referendum. It is simply about the political elite in Westminster rejecting democracy to get us to keep voting until we vote the way they want.
No in 1975 everyone knew we confirmed we joined the Common Market or stayed as we were before.
Leave in 2016 had single market, trade deal or no deal types all voting for it
But what we got after Maastricht was clearly completely different and we didn't get another vote.
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
DUP want May gone - not surprising as she stabbed them in the back.
She didn't stab them in the back. She maintained the UK and NI in the same Customs Area. There is still a gap in terms of goods regulations covered by the GFA, but she closed most of it.
Except if we go into the Backstop at which point, the non- NI part of the Uk would be regarded as a third party country as regards trade with NI.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
Hardly. He has gotten pretty ad hominem and nasty, generically dismissing people and misrepresenting through over simplification, while acting above it all because others dare to be a bit political..
Very kind of you to say so. Please enlighten me as to how I have offended you through my postings so I can continue doing it.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
At the moment Brexit looks in great peril. The dimwitted way in which Leavers have sought to grind Remain supporters into the dust has ensured that the country will be riven on the subject for decades, whatever happens now.
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
I disagree - the issue needs the oxygen of a "chance" of overturning the referendum result. Once that has gone when we are out the circus will move on.
Two years ago there was a lot of talk among Leavers about how it would all calm down soon enough. Your prediction looks about as accurate as that one.
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
We should all bear in mind that a Parliamentary vote to stop Brexit would establish one convention - that referendums are worthless - and confirm another - that Parliament can do whatever it likes. A future Parliament that contains a Government elected with a working majority on a manifesto commitment to Brexit can dispense with the need for another referendum altogether, and act based on its own mandate alone.
Ladies and Gentlemen, a referendum requires an absolute majority of votes cast. A majority Government can, as was the case with Labour in 2005, be elected on as little as 35% of the vote. The only thing that could change that is if Labour came to power and pushed through PR for Westminster: I've always thought the two big parties had too much self-interest in the status quo ever to vote for that, but perhaps I'll be proved wrong some day?
Even if the Brexiteers lose this battle, there is still no reason why they can't win the war, and reason to suppose that they probably will eventually. All they need is sufficient votes in the right places, and it will no longer matter in the least whether or not the majority of the population is against them.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
Because it was about the EEC (the Common Market), not the EU.
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
DUP want May gone - not surprising as she stabbed them in the back.
She didn't stab them in the back. She maintained the UK and NI in the same Customs Area. There is still a gap in terms of goods regulations covered by the GFA, but she closed most of it.
Except if we go into the Backstop at which point, the non- NI part of the Uk would be regarded as a third party country as regards trade with NI.
No. The backstop legal advice explicitly said GB and NI would be in the same territory under the backstop.
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If a battle is lost to an army that is 75% Germans and 25% Italians, does it make sense to focus on the German contribution or the Italian one?
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
That's an interesting and enlightening viewpoint. Would you, for example, support the introduction of PR in English local elections as a first step? After all, we already have forms of PR for Scottish contests and in London as well.
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
We should all bear in mind that a Parliamentary vote to stop Brexit would establish one convention - that referendums are worthless - and confirm another - that Parliament can do whatever it likes. A future Parliament that contains a Government elected with a working majority on a manifesto commitment to Brexit can dispense with the need for another referendum altogether, and act based on its ually. All they need is sufficient votes in the right places, and it will no longer matter in the least whether or not the majority of the population is against them.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If a battle is lost to an army that is 75% Germans and 25% Italians, does it make sense to focus on the German contribution or the Italian one?
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I asked this earlier and I think Big G is right. The 12 month rule.
If it weren't for the 12 month immunity to subsequent votes the letters would be in now if not already.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If a battle is lost to an army that is 75% Germans and 25% Italians, does it make sense to focus on the German contribution or the Italian one?
If someone is mendaciously claiming Italian support when they were opposed by 70-80% of Italians and when their own army was 80% German, of course it does.
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I asked this earlier and I think Big G is right. The 12 month rule.
If it weren't for the 12 month immunity to subsequent votes the letters would be in now if not already.
To quote a former prime minister, if she won a vote they should put up or shut up if they lose. There should be a vote now though. They need to clear the air.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
st
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If a battle is lost to an army that is 75% Germans and 25% Italians, does it make sense to focus on the German contribution or the Italian one?
If someone is mendaciously claiming Italian support when they were opposed by 70-80% of Italians and when their own army was 80% German, of course it does.
Your 70-80% of Italians entirely ignored the substantial number of new recruits to the Italian Army. People like Jeremy Hunt and many Conservative MPs like him are committed Leavers now.
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
No. They won't. They are just saying that.
As Lord Hope said in the Supreme Court, in response to a particularly asinine submission by the Lord Advocate: “but Lord Advocate, words is all we have.”
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
st
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
This is nonsense. May gave you an open border with Northern Ireland, environmental and labour standards maintained, state aid alignment, a financial settlement acceptable to the EU and ongoing security and intelligence cooperation.Remainers in parliaments in exchange have spat in her face and said they will not accept any other deal that didn't meet six impossible tests.
You are desperately trying to push a meme that this deal is being defeated by Remain supporters. It's rubbish. Just 11 backbench MPs who voted for Leave in 2016 have stated that they are supporting this deal.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
If a battle is lost to an army that is 75% Germans and 25% Italians, does it make sense to focus on the German contribution or the Italian one?
If someone is mendaciously claiming Italian support when they were opposed by 70-80% of Italians and when their own army was 80% German, of course it does.
Your 70-80% of Italians entirely ignored the substantial number of new recruits to the Italian Army. People like Jeremy Hunt and many Conservative MPs like him are committed Leavers now.
She has a low opinion of her colleagues if she thinks they'll be able to explain why the current deal is appalling but the deal with a couple of explanatory letters from the EU is suddenly worth voting for.
The only card she has is to forget no deal, which everyone knows cannot happen, and play the no Brexit/second vote as the serious alternative if the deal is rejected. Some of her rhetoric - for example that MPs now need to decide whether to honour the referendum - played in this direction, but without the card face up on the table it isn't going to work.
I often wonder when TMay is facing these Commons marathons what she does if she's desperate for a pee. A former colleague who had worked for Harold Wilson at Number 10 told me that that not being able to cope with things like this was the reason for his shock resignation in he 74-79 parliament
This government is a complete disgrace. They've wasted two years and now normal people like myself are anxious about our future. There's no guarantee I will be able to get my medicine from Denmark or Netherlands past March next year. Disgrace.
Don’t worry. There’s a pro Remain majority in the Commons.
They’ll vote to revoke a50 if No Deal looks likely.
Doesn't it require primary legislation ?
I think so but it seems unclear. Court case to come?
It doesn't need primary legislation as far as the European Copurt is concerned but it does as far as UK law is concerned.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
At the moment Brexit looks in great peril. The dimwitted way in which Leavers have sought to grind Remain supporters into the dust has ensured that the country will be riven on the subject for decades, whatever happens now.
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
I personally think that May’s deal, or something incredibly similar to it, remains the best way forward. As someone who voted Leave it doesn’t give me what I wanted but it delivers on the essentials. Many remainers think it is certainly the least worst option available, if we are to leave. But it now looks the most unlikely outcome of all: friendless and unsupported. Like NI (ironically) we are being driven from the centre ground to the extremes.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU. The impetus for a hard border in Ireland is therefore the EU refusal to consider all alternatives. Difficult to see how Brexit can therefore become a reality without a hard Brexit. That means May has to go.
Tinkering with May’s deal will achieve nothing and a second referendum just betrays the first.
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
Tomorrow, instead of the historic vote on Brexit, MPs will instead debate Lords amendments to the ivory bill. After that, there will be a general debate on fuel poverty.
This is surely going to spoil the Channel Four News two-hour live special tomorrow evening?
This government is a complete disgrace. They've wasted two years and now normal people like myself are anxious about our future. There's no guarantee I will be able to get my medicine from Denmark or Netherlands past March next year. Disgrace.
Don’t worry. There’s a pro Remain majority in the Commons.
They’ll vote to revoke a50 if No Deal looks likely.
Doesn't it require primary legislation ?
I think so but it seems unclear. Court case to come?
It doesn't need primary legislation as far as the European Copurt is concerned but it does as far as UK law is concerned.
Don't we have Gina Miller to thank for that?
Isn't it an irony that if it wasn't for Miller's court case then invocation would have happened without legislation and therefore revocation wouldn't have needed legislation either?
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I cannot quite understand it. She can tell the EU that the deal was to be rejected by the Commons, anyone can do that, but how could the EU, even if they are willingly to reopen things, be confident that what they agree with May would pass the Commons either? She has no ability to judge what might be acceptable to the Commons, that much is clear. There are people who would be worse PMs, but on this particularly point, there are plenty who could do this job better than May can, given she has been saying no change was possible for weeks. What is wrong with Tory MPs?
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
We should all bear in mind that a Parliamentary vote to stop Brexit would establish one convention - that referendums are worthless - and confirm another - that Parliament can do whatever it likes. A future Parliament that contains a Government elected with a working majority on a manifesto commitment to Brexit can dispense with the need for another referendum altogether, and act based on its ually. All they need is sufficient votes in the right places, and it will no longer matter in the least whether or not the majority of the population is against them.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
What is wrong with Tory MPs?
If we knew the answer to that, we would hardly be here.
How can there not be 48 letters after another nothing has changed performance?
Because any replacement would be doing the same thing - going back to the EU to try to renegotiate the backstop. And the EU will have more time for her than an ERGer who they will hate.
The EU are more comfortable and familiar with her and its getting her nowhere.
Having someone you hate but need to work with can work sometimes and is probably what is needed to get an acceptable deal. Just as Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness were able to reach an agreement and it only has to be reached and acceptable to all extremes once.
Andrea Leadsom has buggered Bercow. (Only a mum can do that)
Aren't there procedural type motions that MPs can (and have) moved in the past at the end of such sessions to at least indicate and measure their discontent?
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I cannot quite understand it. She can tell the EU that the deal was to be rejected by the Commons, anyone can do that, but how could the EU, even if they are willingly to reopen things, be confident that what they agree with May would pass the Commons either? She has no ability to judge what might be acceptable to the Commons, that much is clear. There are people who would be worse PMs, but on this particularly point, there are plenty who could do this job better than May can, given she has been saying no change was possible for weeks. What is wrong with Tory MPs?
Indeed. The EU is watching the deal being trashed. It would've lost a vote by 400-240. A tweaked deal would lose by what? 360-280?
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
DUP want May gone - not surprising as she stabbed them in the back.
She didn't stab them in the back. She maintained the UK and NI in the same Customs Area. There is still a gap in terms of goods regulations covered by the GFA, but she closed most of it.
Except if we go into the Backstop at which point, the non- NI part of the Uk would be regarded as a third party country as regards trade with NI.
No. The backstop legal advice explicitly said GB and NI would be in the same territory under the backstop.
See the Guardian reporting on the legal advice:
"It has often been a complex debate, but Cox cuts through. Northern Ireland will remain in the EU’s single market for goods while Great Britain does not, meaning that “GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB to NI”."
I asked this earlier and I think Big G is right. The 12 month rule.
If it weren't for the 12 month immunity to subsequent votes the letters would be in now if not already.
If the rules were the same as they were in Thatcher's Day she'd have been thrown out immediately after the GE2017 debacle. As it, MPs who might otherwise consider getting rid of her are worried that their deeply divided and confused colleagues (a great many of whom will be thinking 'Oh God, we'll end up with a Hard Brexiteer' or 'Oh God, we'll end up with a raving Europhile') will end up sticking to nurse for fear of something even worse.
As it is, if she won't budge then they may have a huge amount of difficulty getting rid of her.
Now, the other arguments in favour of Theresa May's possible survival:
1. Parliamentary paralysis: most MPs want to stay in the EU, but most of them are distributed between the two main parties and have so far proven incapable of stitching up a deal between them. The opposing forces of party loyalty, the fear that they may split their own parties apart, and the subsequent risk of being thrown out of a job at a General Election, all act against such a thing. 2. The DUP. Yes, the DUP. If Theresa May can't do anything (because MPs hate her Deal, she won't propose any alternative, she won;t step down and if there's any chance of the Deal actually passing they can pull the plug on her anyway,) then why not just leave her sitting like a complete lemon in Downing Street for another three-and-a-half months whilst the clock just runs down? If May won't budge and she can't come up with anything to avert a Hard Brexit, then that outcome will happen by default at the end of March. Which I'm sure would suit them down to the ground. 3. Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn doesn't like the EU and would be perfectly happy for us to leave. Indeed, he'd rather like it if May's paralysed premiership ran through the aftermath of a Hard Brexit, with her making a spectacular hash of it, in the hope that he would then have a much-improved chance of winning the next General Election. 4. The potential leadership contenders. Allow Brexit to happen, let May take the blame for anything that goes wrong, then make a unified attempt to throw her out. One important thing that a clean break would do is bury Brexit as an internal Tory argument. It would be over and done with. The successor could then reunite the party to take on Labour.
If May won't move and she can't achieve anything, yet nobody is willing or able to get rid of her, then why shouldn't she just keep on going? For now, anyway...
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I cannot quite understand it. She can tell the EU that the deal was to be rejected by the Commons, anyone can do that, but how could the EU, even if they are willingly to reopen things, be confident that what they agree with May would pass the Commons either? She has no ability to judge what might be acceptable to the Commons, that much is clear. There are people who would be worse PMs, but on this particularly point, there are plenty who could do this job better than May can, given she has been saying no change was possible for weeks. What is wrong with Tory MPs?
It would've lost a vote by 400-240. A tweaked deal would lose by what? 360-280?
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I cannot quite understand it. She can tell the EU that the deal was to be rejected by the Commons, anyone can do that, but how could the EU, even if they are willingly to reopen things, be confident that what they agree with May would pass the Commons either? She has no ability to judge what might be acceptable to the Commons, that much is clear. There are people who would be worse PMs, but on this particularly point, there are plenty who could do this job better than May can, given she has been saying no change was possible for weeks. What is wrong with Tory MPs?
If this doesn't turn non-ERG Tory MPs against her I don't know what will. Perhaps this evening there will be frantic sounding out to see if they actually have the numbers to bring her down
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
DUP want May gone - not surprising as she stabbed them in the back.
She didn't stab them in the back. She maintained the UK and NI in the same Customs Area. There is still a gap in terms of goods regulations covered by the GFA, but she closed most of it.
Except if we go into the Backstop at which point, the non- NI part of the Uk would be regarded as a third party country as regards trade with NI.
No. The backstop legal advice explicitly said GB and NI would be in the same territory under the backstop.
See the Guardian reporting on the legal advice:
"It has often been a complex debate, but Cox cuts through. Northern Ireland will remain in the EU’s single market for goods while Great Britain does not, meaning that “GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB to NI”."
"The legal advice sets out in fairly stark terms that Northern Ireland would be treated differently to the rest of the UK if the backstop protocol kicked in.
Unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland would remain in the EU’s single market and customs union.
Goods passing from Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) to Northern Ireland would be subject to a declaration process overseen by EU institutions.
Mr Cox puts it like this: “For regulatory purposes GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI.”
“Third country” is Brussels-speak for a country outside the EU. The way it’s used here could suggest that the backstop arrangement will see Northern Ireland act like an EU member state, treating Britain as a separate entity."
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
Go on then - what other solutions has the EU contemplated or suggested.
I asked this earlier and I think Big G is right. The 12 month rule.
If it weren't for the 12 month immunity to subsequent votes the letters would be in now if not already.
If the rules were the same as they were in Thatcher's Day she'd have been thrown out immediately after the GE2017 debacle. As it, MPs who might otherwise consider getting rid of her are worried that their deeply divided and confused colleagues (a great many of whom will be thinking 'Oh God, we'll end up with a Hard Brexiteer' or 'Oh God, we'll end up with a raving Europhile') will end up sticking to nurse for fear of something even worse.
As it is, if she won't budge then they may have a huge amount of difficulty getting rid of her.
Now, the other arguments in favour of Theresa May's possible survival:
1. Parliamentary paralysis: most MPs want to stay in the EU, but most of them are distributed between the two main parties and have so far proven incapable of stitching up a deal between them. The opposing forces of party loyalty, the fear that they may split their own parties apart, and the subsequent risk of being thrown out of a job at a General Election, all act against such a thing. 2. The DUP. Yes, the 3. Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn doesn't like the EU and would be perfectly happy for us to leave. Indeed, he'd rather like it if May's paralysed premiership ran through the aftermath of a Hard Brexit, with her making a spectacular has of it, in the hope that he would then have a much-improved chance of winning the next General Election. 4. The potential leadership contenders. Allow Brexit to happen, let May take the blame for anything that goes wrong, then make a unified attempt to throw her out. One important thing that a clean break would do is bury Brexit as an internal Tory argument. It would be over and done with. The successor could then reunite the party to take on Labour.
If May won't move and she can't achieve anything, yet nobody is willing or able to get rid of her, then why shouldn't she just keep on going? For now, anyway...
Her sense of duty or self preservation is, at this point, misplaced and unhelpful, but on a technical level if no one will remove her she is not being inherently unreasonable in keeping going. She should recognise it is not helping, but the whole point of those procedures is to be able to remove someone who does not recognise it.
I do wonder - what is now stopping the letters going in to Brady? May has admitted that her deal is seen by the Commons as a shit sandwich. And yet she wants to be the one to scrape some of the shit from the bread, before presenting it again.
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
I cannot quite understand it. She can tell the EU that the deal was to be rejected by the Commons, anyone can do that, but how could the EU, even if they are willingly to reopen things, be confident that what they agree with May would pass the Commons either? She has no ability to judge what might be acceptable to the Commons, that much is clear. There are people who would be worse PMs, but on this particularly point, there are plenty who could do this job better than May can, given she has been saying no change was possible for weeks. What is wrong with Tory MPs?
If this doesn't turn non-ERG Tory MPs against her I don't know what will. Perhaps this evening there will be frantic sounding out to see if they actually have the numbers to bring her down
It was reported that some MPs were waiting for her deal to fail before they sent in letters, making it bizarre that, the deal being an admitted failure, they would not now do so.
How many Tory MPs does it take to reach 50%+1 to eject her? Must be pretty close if a vote was called.
I believe 111 now have come out against the deal. That's most of the way there. Throw in some cabinet ministers who in the secrecy of a secret ballot feel they could run for the job themselves. But more importantly the number opposed to the deal at heart is likely much greater than 111 since coming out of the closet to be against it requires 'payroll vote' MPs to quit their posts. In a secret ballot VoNC those payroll vote MPs who think the deal [or May] is crap but don't want to throw away their job over it can vote against in a secret ballot.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
At the moment Brexit looks in great peril. The dimwitted way in which Leavers have sought to grind Remain supporters into the dust has ensured that the country will be riven on the subject for decades, whatever happens now.
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
I disagree - the issue needs the oxygen of a "chance" of overturning the referendum result. Once that has gone when we are out the circus will move on.
Why anyone in their right mind would believe your predictions of calm is beyond me. All have been proved entirely erroneous thus far.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
I have a lot of acquaintances in the EU bureaucracy. The general consensus is that they are unbelievably fed up with the UK and wish we would just piss off.
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
DUP want May gone - not surprising as she stabbed them in the back.
She didn't stab them in the back. She maintained the UK and NI in the same Customs Area. There is still a gap in terms of goods regulations covered by the GFA, but she closed most of it.
Except if we go into the Backstop at which point, the non- NI part of the Uk would be regarded as a third party country as regards trade with NI.
No. The backstop legal advice explicitly said GB and NI would be in the same territory under the backstop.
See the Guardian reporting on the legal advice:
"It has often been a complex debate, but Cox cuts through. Northern Ireland will remain in the EU’s single market for goods while Great Britain does not, meaning that “GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB to NI”."
"The legal advice sets out in fairly stark terms that Northern Ireland would be treated differently to the rest of the UK if the backstop protocol kicked in.
Unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland would remain in the EU’s single market and customs union.
Goods passing from Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) to Northern Ireland would be subject to a declaration process overseen by EU institutions.
Mr Cox puts it like this: “For regulatory purposes GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI.”
“Third country” is Brussels-speak for a country outside the EU. The way it’s used here could suggest that the backstop arrangement will see Northern Ireland act like an EU member state, treating Britain as a separate entity."
Read the actual legal document. It explicitly says NI and GB will be in the same customs territory. The C4 Factcheck is just wrong as NI would not be in the single market.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
Go on then - what other solutions has the EU contemplated or suggested.
The EU negotiators have conceded, I suspect, rather more than they really, really wanted to because the 27 want to keep Britain close. Not so much because they want disruptive us, but because Britain leaving is going to cause disruption in the rest of Europe.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
I have a lot of acquaintances in the EU bureaucracy. The general consensus is that they are unbelievably fed up with the UK and wish we would just piss off.
And yet others insist the EU hierarchy are keen for us to remain, hence the court ruling.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
I have a lot of acquaintances in the EU bureaucracy. The general consensus is that they are unbelievably fed up with the UK and wish we would just piss off.
Nigel Dodds, Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) Westminster leader: "Frankly what the prime minister says today simply isn't credible, is it?
"The prime minister says she's listening, but she talks about assurances and reassurances. Does she not get it by now that the withdrawal agreement legally binding text is not accepted in this house?
"Please listen and amend the withdrawal agreement or it will be voted down."
This is the party that is going to resist a VonC?
DUP want May gone - not surprising as she stabbed them in the back.
She didn't stab them in the back. She maintained the UK and NI in the same Customs Area. There is still a gap in terms of goods regulations covered by the GFA, but she closed most of it.
Except if we go into the Backstop at which point, the non- NI part of the Uk would be regarded as a third party country as regards trade with NI.
No. The backstop legal advice explicitly said GB and NI would be in the same territory under the backstop.
"The legal advice sets out in fairly stark terms that Northern Ireland would be treated differently to the rest of the UK if the backstop protocol kicked in.
Unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland would remain in the EU’s single market and customs union.
Goods passing from Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) to Northern Ireland would be subject to a declaration process overseen by EU institutions.
Mr Cox puts it like this: “For regulatory purposes GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI.”
“Third country” is Brussels-speak for a country outside the EU. The way it’s used here could suggest that the backstop arrangement will see Northern Ireland act like an EU member state, treating Britain as a separate entity."
Read the actual legal document. It explicitly says NI and GB will be in the same customs territory. The C4 Factcheck is just wrong as NI would not be in the single market.
The credibility of a Factcheck is also critically undermined by its clickbait title.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
At the moment Brexit looks in great peril. The dimwitted way in which Leavers have sought to grind Remain supporters into the dust has ensured that the country will be riven on the subject for decades, whatever happens now.
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
I disagree - the issue needs the oxygen of a "chance" of overturning the referendum result. Once that has gone when we are out the circus will move on.
Two years ago there was a lot of talk among Leavers about how it would all calm down soon enough. Your prediction looks about as accurate as that one.
Can't quite get my head round what the Brexiteers are seeing in their crystal balls; sometimes it's much blood foaming in the Witham, other times it'll all be over by Christmas (not this Christmas obvs).
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
Go on then - what other solutions has the EU contemplated or suggested.
The EU negotiators have conceded, I suspect, rather more than they really, really wanted to because the 27 want to keep Britain close. Not so much because they want disruptive us us, but because Britain leaving is going to cause disruption in the rest of Europe.
Maybe, maybe not - but the point at issue is the NI border and on that the EU have refused to contemplate anything other than a border down the Irish Sea between NI and GB. That’s why we cannot contemplate any agreement with a backstop and why it’s the EU that is the real problem.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
That's leaving aside the anti semitic sewer the party now swims in that Murali is perfectly happy to ignore.
Plus of course, Team trot want to leave - notwithstanding the views of Starmer and others.
You were comfortable enough with Leave's own brand of xenophobia.
lol
I see that reaching out to Leavers is going well
At some point the more thoughtful Leavers (no sniggering at the back) will realise that Brexit is in grave difficulty precisely because they made no headway in reaching out to Remain voters. That was partly because they did not attempt to do so and partly because they were holed beneath the waterline by the way in which they won.
That doesn't seem to stop them opining on the moral failings of others.
The time to reach out to remainers is after Brexit is secured I'm afraid - otherwise Remainers will use any compromise to call for an umpteenth "peepils vote".
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
I disagree - the issue needs the oxygen of a "chance" of overturning the referendum result. Once that has gone when we are out the circus will move on.
Two years ago there was a lot of talk among Leavers about how it would all calm down soon enough. Your prediction looks about as accurate as that one.
Can't quite get my head round what the Brexiteers are seeing in their crystal balls; sometimes it's much blood foaming in the Witham, other times it'll all be over by Christmas (not this Christmas obvs).
The river in Witham is the Wid. Just saying.
Has Priti Patel said anything today. Before the weekend there was some stofry about one of her friends arranging a pro-Brexit rally locally, but I've see no sign of it.
Utter, utter incompetent scum. They deserve to be out of power for a generation, if not forever.
The Tory party has shown once again that it will *always* put its' interests ahead of the national interest. Be gone - pests!
As opposed to the pathetic Labour Party whose leader has a Deal plan virtually identical to May's but refuses to support it by putting party politics ahead of the national interest
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
Go on then - what other solutions has the EU contemplated or suggested.
The EU negotiators have conceded, I suspect, rather more than they really, really wanted to because the 27 want to keep Britain close. Not so much because they want disruptive us us, but because Britain leaving is going to cause disruption in the rest of Europe.
Maybe, maybe not - but the point at issue is the NI border and on that the EU have refused to contemplate anything other than a border down the Irish Sea between NI and GB. That’s why we cannot contemplate any agreement with a backstop and why it’s the EU that is the real problem.
Perhaps they don't trust either us or the DUP to play by the rules.
Mr. Theo, there's to be a customs barrier within British sovereign (apparently) territory, down the Irish Sea.
Who cares? There is already a gigantic regulatory barrier there, as anyone who is gay and in love, or who has an unwanted pregnancy will attest.
A regulatory barrier where they choose to erect one, not where others do.
That'd be like having a regulatory barrier in Scotland not because Holyrood had erected one but because Saudi Arabia suddenly was writing Scottish laws.
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
We should all bear in mind that a Parliamentary vote to stop Brexit would establish one convention - that referendums are worthless - and confirm another - that Parliament can do whatever it likes. A future Parliament that contains a Government elected with a working majority on a manifesto commitment to Brexit can dispense with the need for another referendum altogether, and act based on its ually. All they need is sufficient votes in the right places, and it will no longer matter in the least whether or not the majority of the population is against them.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
Why not? View the Tories and Labour as like coalitions.
Under PR they could be in the same government via a coalition but we have no knowledge of that before votes are counted and a coalition is formed.
At least under FPTP we know that they're in the same coalition before the election.
No not necessarily as 2010 and 2017 proved nobody knew a Tory and LD or Tory and DUP coalition would result
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).
The next best thing for the Brexiteers after actually getting a clean break from the EU this time is a direct vote by Parliament to rescind A50. It would present them with a huge grievance that they could exploit for years to come. Anyone doubting the power of a sovereignty movement equipped with grievances should look North of the Tweed.
One way or another they'll capture the Tory Party (or whatever's left of it,) and sooner or later they'll come to power and reverse the decision again. I think they'd probably do it even if there were a second referendum that went against them, but unilateral action by Parliament should help to accelerate the process.
To be quite frank PR may be what we need, then the ERG can finally leave the Tory Party and join UKIP and Farage and the Blairites and ultra Remainers in Labour can go off and join the LDs without risking their seats under a FPTP no longer fit for purpose
Agreed, just dust off the Jenkins report. More Tories apart from Hannan supporting PR could improve its prospects.
By the way, Wikipedia says that the 1975 referendum was binding on that parliament and was 'expected to be politically binding on all future parliaments'. Why was it so easily overturned?
I was on the losing side but accepted the result, because of the 'binding' nature and because it was so decisive (67/33%).
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
How would PR make the current situation any more manageable? You cannot know the components of a future parliament and who will be made to work with who. A Grieve party and a Mogg party might in the future be the only viable combination in a future parliament for arguments sake! Equally a Umunna party and a Corbyn might only work in an alternative scenario. In an ideal world Grieve & Umunna would get together and govern but that would only be durable until the usual political cycle of decay for governing parties kicks them into touch as it inevitably will. All PR will achieve is more political deadlock as single issue parties become more entrenched and coalitions of the willing become harder to achieve.
PR at least means you are more likely to be able to vote for a party you believe in than one that is the least worst option
Yes I voted for AV and would now back PR. FPTP is an analogue voting system unsuited to the digital age, Grieve and Mogg and Umunna and Corbyn should not be in the same party
That's an interesting and enlightening viewpoint. Would you, for example, support the introduction of PR in English local elections as a first step? After all, we already have forms of PR for Scottish contests and in London as well.
The insoluble problem is that the EU will never be satisfied on the NI border. It’s their weapon to either separate NI from the U.K. or keep the U.K. in the EU.
This is conspiracy theory nonsense.
I have a lot of acquaintances in the EU bureaucracy. The general consensus is that they are unbelievably fed up with the UK and wish we would just piss off.
And yet others insist the EU hierarchy are keen for us to remain, hence the court ruling.
Let's remember that the EU Commission were as opposed as the UK government to this interpretation. It's interesting that the Brexiteers have failed to acknowledge the most important point of this judgement. That the UK is a sovereign state which retains its sovereignty
Mr. Theo, there's to be a customs barrier within British sovereign (apparently) territory, down the Irish Sea.
Who cares? There is already a gigantic regulatory barrier there, as anyone who is gay and in love, or who has an unwanted pregnancy will attest.
A regulatory barrier where they choose to erect one, not where others do.
That'd be like having a regulatory barrier in Scotland not because Holyrood had erected one but because Saudi Arabia suddenly was writing Scottish laws.
Saudi Arabia ? Pfffffft.
And yet you favour imposing a no deal Brexit which is rejected by two thirds of the country - and indeed around two thirds of the NI electorate.
Comments
Under PR they could be in the same government via a coalition but we have no knowledge of that before votes are counted and a coalition is formed.
At least under FPTP we know that they're in the same coalition before the election.
You on the other hand really are ok with xenophobia, real xenophobia in your choice of countries to have second and third homes in.
so - probably not your most potent line of attack
Britain has entered a political tailspin and it doesn't look as though it's going to get out of it at any point in the foreseeable future no matter what happens.
The great majority of the support for the deal in Parliament, such as it gets, comes from quiet remain-voting Conservative MPs. (I am not a Conservative nor an MP but if given a vote I would have voted for this deal, as it happens.) The failure is among Leave MPs to recognise half a loaf.
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1072186894384029696
We negotiated this thing. It'll never happen. They promise.
It's in a legally binding agreement...
If we really are renegotiating with the EU in any meaningful way, it needs to be undertaken by somebody who can fully appreciate just how disgusting that first deal tasted. Otherwise, May will come back and say "Well, they caved on some punctuation. NOW pass it...."
By pulling the vote, May has given her critics more than enough reason to pull her premiership.
Must have Crossrail...
What’s the point of having it then?
FFS, Tory Party, take the car keys off her.
If it weren't for the 12 month immunity to subsequent votes the letters would be in now if not already.
The only card she has is to forget no deal, which everyone knows cannot happen, and play the no Brexit/second vote as the serious alternative if the deal is rejected. Some of her rhetoric - for example that MPs now need to decide whether to honour the referendum - played in this direction, but without the card face up on the table it isn't going to work.
Tinkering with May’s deal will achieve nothing and a second referendum just betrays the first.
That’s all I’m saying.
This is surely going to spoil the Channel Four News two-hour live special tomorrow evening?
David Herdson is also to blame.
Isn't it an irony that if it wasn't for Miller's court case then invocation would have happened without legislation and therefore revocation wouldn't have needed legislation either?
Having someone you hate but need to work with can work sometimes and is probably what is needed to get an acceptable deal. Just as Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness were able to reach an agreement and it only has to be reached and acceptable to all extremes once.
"It has often been a complex debate, but Cox cuts through. Northern Ireland will remain in the EU’s single market for goods while Great Britain does not, meaning that “GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI for goods passing from GB to NI”."
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/05/clear-cut-brexit-legal-advice-reinforces-backstop-concerns
As it is, if she won't budge then they may have a huge amount of difficulty getting rid of her.
Now, the other arguments in favour of Theresa May's possible survival:
1. Parliamentary paralysis: most MPs want to stay in the EU, but most of them are distributed between the two main parties and have so far proven incapable of stitching up a deal between them. The opposing forces of party loyalty, the fear that they may split their own parties apart, and the subsequent risk of being thrown out of a job at a General Election, all act against such a thing.
2. The DUP. Yes, the DUP. If Theresa May can't do anything (because MPs hate her Deal, she won't propose any alternative, she won;t step down and if there's any chance of the Deal actually passing they can pull the plug on her anyway,) then why not just leave her sitting like a complete lemon in Downing Street for another three-and-a-half months whilst the clock just runs down? If May won't budge and she can't come up with anything to avert a Hard Brexit, then that outcome will happen by default at the end of March. Which I'm sure would suit them down to the ground.
3. Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn doesn't like the EU and would be perfectly happy for us to leave. Indeed, he'd rather like it if May's paralysed premiership ran through the aftermath of a Hard Brexit, with her making a spectacular hash of it, in the hope that he would then have a much-improved chance of winning the next General Election.
4. The potential leadership contenders. Allow Brexit to happen, let May take the blame for anything that goes wrong, then make a unified attempt to throw her out. One important thing that a clean break would do is bury Brexit as an internal Tory argument. It would be over and done with. The successor could then reunite the party to take on Labour.
If May won't move and she can't achieve anything, yet nobody is willing or able to get rid of her, then why shouldn't she just keep on going? For now, anyway...
"The legal advice sets out in fairly stark terms that Northern Ireland would be treated differently to the rest of the UK if the backstop protocol kicked in.
Unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland would remain in the EU’s single market and customs union.
Goods passing from Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) to Northern Ireland would be subject to a declaration process overseen by EU institutions.
Mr Cox puts it like this: “For regulatory purposes GB is essentially treated as a third country by NI.”
“Third country” is Brussels-speak for a country outside the EU. The way it’s used here could suggest that the backstop arrangement will see Northern Ireland act like an EU member state, treating Britain as a separate entity."
Source: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-legal-advice-the-government-didnt-want-you-to-see
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/almost-100k-of-public-money-spent-on-brexit-deal-facebook-ads
I believe 111 now have come out against the deal. That's most of the way there. Throw in some cabinet ministers who in the secrecy of a secret ballot feel they could run for the job themselves. But more importantly the number opposed to the deal at heart is likely much greater than 111 since coming out of the closet to be against it requires 'payroll vote' MPs to quit their posts. In a secret ballot VoNC those payroll vote MPs who think the deal [or May] is crap but don't want to throw away their job over it can vote against in a secret ballot.
Has Priti Patel said anything today. Before the weekend there was some stofry about one of her friends arranging a pro-Brexit rally locally, but I've see no sign of it.
That'd be like having a regulatory barrier in Scotland not because Holyrood had erected one but because Saudi Arabia suddenly was writing Scottish laws.
Whatever my observations about the current state of A50 (and whatever the views of one individual about my response), my real anger today is reserved for the Crossrail Project which has had a disastrous day with news of a £2 billion overspend and a further delay with services not likely to be running before mid 2020.
Watching the BBC London News take on this, plenty of the usual suspects saying the usual things from Caroline Pidgeon to Sadiq Khan - the problem seemed to be the governance of the project and the lack of accurate information (or perhaps the surplus of misinformation) coming from the project to the Mayor, GLA and others.
Needless to say, there is no one to be held accountable (except perhaps Boris) for this grotesque overspend with stations and tunnels not finished and signals not fully installed at a time when services were meant to be operating. The trains have been delivered but haven't test run on the tunnel sections yet.
The impact on London businesses of the delay will be considerable - one of the big selling points for Crossrail has been the potential income for business of people coming from east and west into central London quicker and easier than is currently the case.
The stupidity is Crossrail is nothing new - in the 1920s and 1930s it was possible to travel from Ealing Broadway to Southend on the same train - all that happened was the electric tube car was detached at Whitechapel and replaced with a steam engine. Indeed, the Metropolitan Line ran a service from Barking to Windsor via Paddington.
Instead of spending millions on new tracks and tunnels we could have looked art compatible rolling stock, compatible power cars and transfer facilities (as we used to see at Farringdon where third rail trains from south of the Thames switched to overhead for the journey north).
Pfffffft.
And yet you favour imposing a no deal Brexit which is rejected by two thirds of the country - and indeed around two thirds of the NI electorate.