politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast: Will May reach and deal and

First out of the club

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

One for Sunil:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-45903825/baby-joins-the-all-50-states-club

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

MarqueeMark said:

She's doomed to try, doomed to fail.....

Is this about Hillary running again?

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

Mr Thompson, I assume you mean "running down our country"? Please see my previous post. Leavers are in no position what so ever to claim the patriotic high ground. They have made our country a laughing stock internationally, and those politicians responsible should never be allowed to forget the mess they have created.

Nigelb said:

"Reach and deal" ?
Is that a card trick or a sexual peccadillo ?

haha. probably the latter, and may involve POTUS and Stormy Daniels

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

Creating trade barriers with Ireland is sufficient in itself to conclude that the country is not being well run. It's not all about economics you know.

We aren't the ones threatening barriers. We have said we want a trade deal, they don't want to talk about one. That's on them not us. We aren't prisoners we can leave and negotiate one when they get over us leaving and are ready to talk.

Nigelb said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Nigelb said:

"Reach and deal" ?
Is that a card trick or a sexual peccadillo ?

haha. probably the latter, and may involve POTUS and Stormy Daniels

Let's not go there. We traumatised TSE yesterday.

Oh damn I missed that, must have logged off. What time?

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

May must surely go down as the worst PM of the modern era. With Cameron close behind.

anothernick said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

May must surely go down as the worst PM of the modern era. With Cameron close behind.

I used to think so, but history will be the judge. She has not been given the best cards. People used to say that Gordon Brown was terrible, and in many ways he was, but history may judge his handling of the crash well.

It is now likely if May confirms she has confirmed the backstop of permanent SM and CU membership for Northern Ireland that the UK will be on the same terms anyway in the transition period until the end of 2021 and that will be enough for the DUP to keep propping May up given Corbyn and McDonnell are the alternative.

However if no final trade deal agreed by the end of 2021 Boris may fancy his chances of toppling May and chucking the DUP and leading the Tories into a 2022 general election on a platform of CETA for GB

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

Mr Thompson, I assume you mean "running down our country"? Please see my previous post. Leavers are in no position what so ever to claim the patriotic high ground. They have made our country a laughing stock internationally, and those politicians responsible should never be allowed to forget the mess they have created.

I am disappointed by the performance of Theresa May and most of her ministers. And more than disappointed by most of her predecessors who embedded us in an institution that it's fiendishly hard to get out of.

Nigel_Foremain said:

anothernick said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

May must surely go down as the worst PM of the modern era. With Cameron close behind.

I used to think so, but history will be the judge. She has not been given the best cards. People used to say that Gordon Brown was terrible, and in many ways he was, but history may judge his handling of the crash well.

I think May is decisive in a way that Brown wasn't. It's easy to mistake her can kicking for indecision but it's more about keeping control over process. When the time comes for big calls she's shown she is not afraid.

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

Creating trade barriers with Ireland is sufficient in itself to conclude that the country is not being well run. It's not all about economics you know.

We aren't the ones threatening barriers. We have said we want a trade deal, they don't want to talk about one. That's on them not us. We aren't prisoners we can leave and negotiate one when they get over us leaving and are ready to talk.

An FTA creates trade barriers compared with the status quo.

And? So what?

Nigel_Foremain said:

anothernick said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

May must surely go down as the worst PM of the modern era. With Cameron close behind.

I used to think so, but history will be the judge. She has not been given the best cards. People used to say that Gordon Brown was terrible, and in many ways he was, but history may judge his handling of the crash well.

Brown left a huge deficit and high unemployment and Blair invaded Iraq without UN backing.

In many respects John Major is now the best PM post Thatcher, he left a growing economy, low inflation, a reasonably balanced budget and relatively low inflation, managed his Eurosceptic backbenchers without the UK crashing out of the EU unlike Cameron and won the Gulf War only with a UN backed coalition

Labour have chosen an all woman shortlist for Sheffield Hallam.

Wise.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Labour have chosen an all woman shortlist for Sheffield Hallam.

Wise.

More discrimination.

Richard_Nabavi said:

anothernick said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

May must surely go down as the worst PM of the modern era. With Cameron close behind.

Don't be silly. Whilst it's true that Theresa May is not temperamentally well-suited to the job, and has a tin-ear politically, she's actually doing reasonably well given the awful circumstances and the lack of a majority: she's managed to balance the opposing factions, the economy is being exceptionally well-run, and it's looking as though there's a good chance she'll manage a reasonable deal with the EU, if parliament doesn't wreck it. That's a hell of a lot better a record than Blair, for the obvious reason, or Brown, for multiple obvious reasons, and puts her on a par with (say) John Major, and better than Callaghan.

Cameron was of course the best PM, bar Maggie, of the last 50 years, and I don't expect to see another PM as good as him in my remaining lifetime.

Cameron set himself the aims of anchoring Scotland In the union, anchoring the UK in the EU and ending Tory wars over Europe.

And he failed miserably on all three. He left the country an international laughing stock with its alliances in tatters and the union under more strain than at anytime in the past 300 years. And Tory MPs openly refer to their government as a shitshow and confess that they would not vote for it!

If that is success I hate to think what failure would look like!

John_M said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

currystar said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

Mr Thompson, I assume you mean "running down our country"? Please see my previous post. Leavers are in no position what so ever to claim the patriotic high ground. They have made our country a laughing stock internationally, and those politicians responsible should never be allowed to forget the mess they have created.

So a Country which has full employment, which has what is widely regarded as the greatest city in the world, that has history and culture that most other countries can only dream of and where people are prepared to live in horrendous conditions in France just so that they can live here, is now a laughing stock. Get real. This is an awesome country to live in, which is why so many people want to come and live here.

Don't disagree with most of what you have said, except the "get real".

I was (obviously) referring to our current political predicament. We are a laughing stock, so to use your ridiculous hackneyed phrase "get real" yourself. Brexit is an unpatriotic endeavour that has embarrassed the country in the eyes of the world. Only an idiot would think otherwise.

You remind me of Colonel Cathcart in 'Catch 22'. Always worrying about 'feathers in his cap' and 'black eyes'. Some people think we're daft. It doesn't matter a hill of beans.

The sad thing is, most of the world isn't interested in us. They have enough on their plate.

Floater said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

I think you will find there are some countries in that 27 who really don't want to "pool their sovereignty"

of course "pool" means lose in this case

I think you would also be hard pushed to say the EU was being run for the benefit of other than at tops 2 countries - look what happened to southern Europe because of that.

Why also does Merkel get to invite in a couple of million new guests on her own and then when it all goes spectacularly wrong decide that all EU nations have to take their fare share?

There are also sizeable groups of the population in certain counties that really do want to leave or at least stop the ever increasing federalisation


You will also have to admit we were never asked about joining anything other than a trading block.

So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?

er no, you really need to check your facts. The idea that we were "only joining a trading block" is another whopper. The much maligned (and exaggerated) "ever closer union" was well known. The arguments against the EEC were well aired, and one of these was that we would "lose" some sovereignty (please see previous comments on the bogus sovereignty argument). I don't know whether you are old enough to remember the original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.

Nigel_Foremain said:

currystar said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

currystar said:

Scott_P said:

currystar said:

What will you do if Brexit is a success?

Rejoice.

What will you do when it's not?

Deal with it, I voted Remain and wish Cameron was still PM, but hes not and we are leaving the EU. Since the vote this country has boomed, going completely against all predictions from the Remain side. I am optomistic. I really don't see the point in worrying about predictions as from my experience they are nearly always wrong. All your posts are just predictions from "experts" of how things are going to be terrible. You would have wasted alot of time if things go well.

Get real. The idea that leaving the single market and customs union will introduce trade barriers is not a "prediction" but the actual reality of what it means.

Get real. Does it even matter? We are routinely told we don't need trade deals with the rest of the world as Germant can trade despite the lack of them. So does it matter if there are more barriers?

Or does running out own country well matter more?

Mr Thompson, I assume you mean "running down our country"? Please see my previous post. Leavers are in no position what so ever to claim the patriotic high ground. They have made our country a laughing stock internationally, and those politicians responsible should never be allowed to forget the mess they have created.

So a Country which has full employment, which has what is widely regarded as the greatest city in the world, that has history and culture that most other countries can only dream of and where people are prepared to live in horrendous conditions in France just so that they can live here, is now a laughing stock. Get real. This is an awesome country to live in, which is why so many people want to come and live here.

Don't disagree with most of what you have said, except the "get real".

I was (obviously) referring to our current political predicament. We are a laughing stock, so to use your ridiculous hackneyed phrase "get real" yourself. Brexit is an unpatriotic endeavour that has embarrassed the country in the eyes of the world. Only an idiot would think otherwise.

I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

This is acceptable and all patriotic Brits will agree, only traitors and Putin's little helpers will disagree.

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1053297961508261888

anothernick said:

Cameron set himself the aims of anchoring Scotland In the union, anchoring the UK in the EU and ending Tory wars over Europe.

And he failed miserably on all three. He left the country an international laughing stock with its alliances in tatters and the union under more strain than at anytime in the past 300 years. And Tory MPs openly refer to their government as a shitshow and confess that they would not vote for it!

If that is success I hate to think what failure would look like!

Voters decided not to follow his advice. That doesn't make him a bad PM, it means voters made a mistake. More fool them: we are seeing the consequences.

The local paper reporting on the Huddersfield grooming case:

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/huddersfield-grooming-gang-operation-tendersea-15290153

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/why-couldnt-report-huddersfield-grooming-15294820

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/news-opinion/grooming-gangs-islamophobia-edl-robinson-15294888

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is acceptable and all patriotic Brits will agree, only traitors and Putin's little helpers will disagree.

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/1053297961508261888

I suspect someone will find fault with it.

Pulpstar said:

I think the big news is that @HYUFD has now caught and passed me on the PB post count leaderboard with his well wishing for the Gov't

Polls show that you are still in the lead.

Mr. Currystar: the old "I used vote this way, but now I vote that" line is a great troll line.

The "EU" and its representatives report to the 27/28 sovereign countries that are members. Barnier has a duty to hold the line. It is us that have had the tantrum. They are not being exceptionally unreasonable, just negotiating form a position of strength. If the position were reversed and it was, say, Wales wanting to accede from the UK I can't imagine we would say "oh of course, you little darlings, we will agree to everything you say after 52% of your population has just told us to fuck off!"

Richard_Nabavi said:

anothernick said:

Cameron set himself the aims of anchoring Scotland In the union, anchoring the UK in the EU and ending Tory wars over Europe.

And he failed miserably on all three. He left the country an international laughing stock with its alliances in tatters and the union under more strain than at anytime in the past 300 years. And Tory MPs openly refer to their government as a shitshow and confess that they would not vote for it!

If that is success I hate to think what failure would look like!

Voters decided not to follow his advice. That doesn't make him a bad PM, it means voters made a mistake. More fool them: we are seeing the consequences.

Ah, the voters! If only we didn't have to bother with them how much easier things would be!

Political leaders are supposed to lead, neither Cameron nor May had any idea of what leadership means. The Tories have not had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher, all her successors have merely followed the line of least resistance in the Party.

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Floater said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

I think you will find there are some countries in that 27 who really don't want to "pool their sovereignty"

of course "pool" means lose in this case

I think you would also be hard pushed to say the EU was being run for the benefit of other than at tops 2 countries - look what happened to southern Europe because of that.

Why also does Merkel get to invite in a couple of million new guests on her own and then when it all goes spectacularly wrong decide that all EU nations have to take their fare share?

There are also sizeable groups of the population in certain counties that really do want to leave or at least stop the ever increasing federalisation


You will also have to admit we were never asked about joining anything other than a trading block.

So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?

er no, you really need to check your facts. The idea that we were "only joining a trading block" is another whopper. The much maligned (and exaggerated) "ever closer union" was well known. The arguments against the EEC were well aired, and one of these was that we would "lose" some sovereignty (please see previous comments on the bogus sovereignty argument). I don't know whether you are old enough to remember the original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.

I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.

True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

Round up the usual suspects, Saudi style:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/saudis-weigh-using-scapegoat

Nigel_Foremain said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Floater said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

There are undoubtedly some Leave supporters who like Mr Dancer articulate their thinking well, though I still struggle to see the logic in isolating our country from a large trading block on our doorstep when the benefits are so unclear and the counterarguments to Brexit so logical and clear. What we are saying is that 27 other countries that are happy to pool their sovereignty for considerable benefit are wrong and we (or rather 52% of "us") are right. If there is such a thing as the wisdom of the crowd, we are clearly not very wise.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

I think you will find there are some countries in that 27 who really don't want to "pool their sovereignty"

of course "pool" means lose in this case

I think you would also be hard pushed to say the EU was being run for the benefit of other than at tops 2 countries - look what happened to southern Europe because of that.

Why also does Merkel get to invite in a couple of million new guests on her own and then when it all goes spectacularly wrong decide that all EU nations have to take their fare share?

There are also sizeable groups of the population in certain counties that really do want to leave or at least stop the ever increasing federalisation


You will also have to admit we were never asked about joining anything other than a trading block.

So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?

er no, you really need to check your facts. The idea that we were "only joining a trading block" is another whopper. The much maligned (and exaggerated) "ever closer union" was well known. The arguments against the EEC were well aired, and one of these was that we would "lose" some sovereignty (please see previous comments on the bogus sovereignty argument). I don't know whether you are old enough to remember the original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.

I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.

True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

That and the right-wing press acting as a mouthpiece for the eurosceptic elite.

anothernick said:

Ah, the voters! If only we didn't have to bother with them how much easier things would be!

Political leaders are supposed to lead, neither Cameron nor May had any idea of what leadership means. The Tories have not had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher, all her successors have merely followed the line of least resistance in the Party.

Now you really are being silly. Whatever else you can say about Cameron, one thing he most certainly did was provide leadership. He took the party and shook it up completely, making it electable and relevant to the modern world in a way it had forgotten to be for a couple of decades. He took it well out its comfort zone - in language and tone, in gay marriage, in applauding Blair, in community relations, and even in respect of the EU. It was magnificent leadership by any standard.

Nigelb said:

Round up the usual suspects, Saudi style:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/saudis-weigh-using-scapegoat

Yes, it's obvious how this is going to turn out - and it's not going to be agreeable for whoever gets to take the rap.

Richard_Nabavi said:

anothernick said:

Ah, the voters! If only we didn't have to bother with them how much easier things would be!

Political leaders are supposed to lead, neither Cameron nor May had any idea of what leadership means. The Tories have not had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher, all her successors have merely followed the line of least resistance in the Party.

Now you really are being silly. Whatever else you can say about Cameron, one thing he most certainly did was provide leadership. He took the party and shook it up completely, making it electable and relevant to the modern world in a way it had forgotten to be for a couple of decades. He took it well out its comfort zone - in language and tone, in gay marriage, in applauding Blair, in community relations, and even in respect of the EU. It was magnificent leadership by any standard.

Agree with that. He had outstanding leadership abilities that are quite uncommon in politicians. Sadly he called an unnecessary referendum which will be the one thing he is remembered for and the political chaos that followed

Richard_Nabavi said:

anothernick said:

Ah, the voters! If only we didn't have to bother with them how much easier things would be!

Political leaders are supposed to lead, neither Cameron nor May had any idea of what leadership means. The Tories have not had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher, all her successors have merely followed the line of least resistance in the Party.

Now you really are being silly. Whatever else you can say about Cameron, one thing he most certainly did was provide leadership. He took the party and shook it up completely, making it electable and relevant to the modern world in a way it had forgotten to be for a couple of decades. He took it well out its comfort zone - in language and tone, in gay marriage, in applauding Blair, in community relations, and even in respect of the EU. It was magnificent leadership by any standard.

I thought Cameron a fine PM. He made a misjudgement and a series of tactical mistakes that proved his undoing. I can't dislike him for that. He was probably better as the PM of the coalition - that played to his undoubted strengths.

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Floater said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.



The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

I think you will find there are some countries in that 27 who really don't want to "pool their sovereignty"

of course "pool" means lose in this case

I think you would also be hard pushed to say the EU was being run for the benefit of other than at tops 2 countries - look what happened to southern Europe because of that.

Why also does Merkel get to invite in a couple of million new guests on her own and then when it all goes spectacularly wrong decide that all EU nations have to take their fare share?

There are also sizeable groups of the population in certain counties that really do want to leave or at least stop the ever increasing federalisation


You will also have to admit we were never asked about joining anything other than a trading block.

So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?

.

I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.

True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

It was a very big issue up till the early eighties, and then from the mid nineties. David Allen Green has given a good account (recalling his past allegiance as a Conservative Eurosceptic) of how Maastricht and then the drive to create the euro began shifting Conservative views.

We all have our personal journeys.

I was too busy earning a living, raising children, getting wed, divorced, wed, widowed and so forth to really give a shit. Maastricht was a minor wtf? moment, but it wasn't until the shenanigans around the constitution and the subsequent Lisbon treaty that I got my xenophobe on, as Alastair might put it.

John_M said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

anothernick said:

Ah, the voters! If only we didn't have to bother with them how much easier things would be!

Political leaders are supposed to lead, neither Cameron nor May had any idea of what leadership means. The Tories have not had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher, all her successors have merely followed the line of least resistance in the Party.

Now you really are being silly. Whatever else you can say about Cameron, one thing he most certainly did was provide leadership. He took the party and shook it up completely, making it electable and relevant to the modern world in a way it had forgotten to be for a couple of decades. He took it well out its comfort zone - in language and tone, in gay marriage, in applauding Blair, in community relations, and even in respect of the EU. It was magnificent leadership by any standard.

I thought Cameron a fine PM. He made a misjudgement and a series of tactical mistakes that proved his undoing. I can't dislike him for that. He was probably better as the PM of the coalition - that played to his undoubted strengths.

Being in office between Brown and May makes Cameron look a lot better than he really was.

However, his "Too many Tweets..." line is one of the best political soundbites of our time.

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Floater said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.



The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

I think you will find there are some countries in that 27 who really don't want to "pool their sovereignty"

of course "pool" means lose in this case

I think you would also be hard pushed to say the EU was being run for the benefit of other than at tops 2 countries - look what happened to southern Europe because of that.

Why also does Merkel get to invite in a couple of million new guests on her own and then when it all goes spectacularly wrong decide that all EU nations have to take their fare share?

There are also sizeable groups of the population in certain counties that really do want to leave or at least stop the ever increasing federalisation


You will also have to admit we were never asked about joining anything other than a trading block.

So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?

.

I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.

True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

It was a very big issue up till the early eighties, and then from the mid nineties. David Allen Green has given a good account (recalling his past allegiance as a Conservative Eurosceptic) of how Maastricht and then the drive to create the euro began shifting Conservative views.

Yes, but not among the general population. Most (including many educated people) still don't know the difference between the ECJ and ECHR, and don't really care

Richard_Nabavi said:

anothernick said:

Ah, the voters! If only we didn't have to bother with them how much easier things would be!

Political leaders are supposed to lead, neither Cameron nor May had any idea of what leadership means. The Tories have not had a leader worthy of the name since Thatcher, all her successors have merely followed the line of least resistance in the Party.

Now you really are being silly. Whatever else you can say about Cameron, one thing he most certainly did was provide leadership. He took the party and shook it up completely, making it electable and relevant to the modern world in a way it had forgotten to be for a couple of decades. He took it well out its comfort zone - in language and tone, in gay marriage, in applauding Blair, in community relations, and even in respect of the EU. It was magnificent leadership by any standard.

Cameron was the most electable Tory leader since Thatcher, Major though left a better legacy for the country, a strong economy, near peace in Northern Ireland and a UN backed coalition in the Gulf War and a UK in the EU but with opt outs

AndyJS said:

Extraordinary poll from Germany:


"Europe Elects
‏@EuropeElects

Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
AfD-EFDD: 16%
SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
LINKE-LEFT: 10%
FDP-ALDE: 8%

Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
Sample size: 1,117"

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

This, on the SPD's woes, was excellent. Reminds me very much of the plight of contemporary Blairites.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1f88c3c-d154-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5

They've fallen a long way since Brandt.

I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

SeanT said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Floater said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

I think you wil

So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?

er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.

I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.

True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.

Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.

Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

It’s a huge waste but there we are.

SeanT said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

And yet others are tweeting that a deal has been done (which sceptics won't like) and TMay reckons she can get it through parliament with Labour help.

Who the F knows.

I suppose both might be true: DD to be the front man to sell the deal which is largely agreed. But as you say, who knows?

AndyJS said:

Extraordinary poll from Germany:


"Europe Elects
‏@EuropeElects

Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
AfD-EFDD: 16%
SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
LINKE-LEFT: 10%
FDP-ALDE: 8%

Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
Sample size: 1,117"

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

Merkel really has done what one might call a Cameron....

AndyJS said:

Extraordinary poll from Germany:


"Europe Elects
‏@EuropeElects

Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
AfD-EFDD: 16%
SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
LINKE-LEFT: 10%
FDP-ALDE: 8%

Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
Sample size: 1,117"

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

How long before Greens top the poll

In terms of the header question, probably and no respectively.

FrancisUrquhart said:

AndyJS said:

Extraordinary poll from Germany:


"Europe Elects
‏@EuropeElects

Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
AfD-EFDD: 16%
SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
LINKE-LEFT: 10%
FDP-ALDE: 8%

Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
Sample size: 1,117"

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

Merkel really has done what one might call a Cameron....

The overall balance between right and left in Germany hasn't altered much since the election. It's the composition of those balances that have changed.

AlastairMeeks said:

I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?

Sean_F said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

AndyJS said:

Extraordinary poll from Germany:


"Europe Elects
‏@EuropeElects

Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
AfD-EFDD: 16%
SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
LINKE-LEFT: 10%
FDP-ALDE: 8%

Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
Sample size: 1,117"

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

Merkel really has done what one might call a Cameron....

The overall balance between right and left in Germany hasn't altered much since the election. It's the composition of those balances that have changed.

It is the extremes on those right and left. Same as here, we had Tory and Labour both basically liberal democracy / pro capitalist parties, now we have opened the gates to Marxist McDonnell and Co.