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It is a very interesting speech, it would have been good to have been there to pick up the nuances.IanB2 said:
"They were in with a load of opt-outs. Now they are out and want a load of opt-ins"IanB2 said:
"Because we needed seriously to work through precisely how a Brexit process could me made to work, before launching it"ralphmalph said:Ivan Rodgers gave a speech last night at Cambridge Uni. For those interested the transcript is here.
https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf0 -
The more they refuse any compromise certainlykle4 said:
Many of them seem to believe that no Brexit is better than a bad Brexit. And if so, should not moan if they don't get Brexit after all.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
And the chance of that is increasing by the day.0 -
It depends how old you are.kle4 said:
I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.Alistair said:
That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.JohnRussell said:
I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying itFoxy said:
Neither strange nor new:JohnRussell said:
Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying warFoxy said:
Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.anothernick said:
It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.RobD said:
I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html
Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
Football fixtures with embroidered poppies on the shirts are a new thing for example. I was at the first ever one in 2003 (Leicester vs Blackburn), now it is ubiquitous. I don't object, and seeing the matchball delivered by the army helicopter has some amusement factor, but does it have the same significance to our Danish, German, Austrian, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Portuguese, Malian, Algerian and French players?0 -
No, how dare they. And these Leavers - surely they should be ignored as well.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:0 -
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.0 -
No one now has a personal memory of anyone who fought and died in the 1914-18 war and you'd have to be over 80 to remember anyone who fought and died in the 1939-45 war . So wearing a poppy can't be personal.TheScreamingEagles said:
I have. It was a small poppy one wore, understated.kle4 said:
I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.Alistair said:
That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.JohnRussell said:
I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying itFoxy said:
Neither strange nor new:JohnRussell said:
Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying warFoxy said:
Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.anothernick said:
I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.RobD said:
I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html
Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
Now there are massive ones available, ones you can stick on the front of your car etc.
Is it a) to honour the long dead who died in war or b) to remind ourselves of the horror of war?
If it is a) why restrict it to WW1 and WW2. Why not the Boer war or 1066?
If it is b) why a poppy? Why not a picture of a mutilated child or a devastated city? A poppy is too pretty.
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+1MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unneccesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
My maternal grandmother was born on the Falls Road and I feel just as at home in Belfast as anywhere in England, Wales or Scotland.
We can’t divide our kingdom to please some technocrats in Brussels.0 -
DUP never "bluff" lol!CarlottaVance said:
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We will know if No Deal is on the cards after the conclusion of negotiations and the Commons vote in November.Foxy said:
I am sure that you are right, voters will not like No Deal Brexit. However as that is the default on March 29th, it requires no positive action to happen, merely a lack of agreement on anything else.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
Voters cannot prevent it, unless we get a #peoplesvote.
If it is a peoplesvote is almost certain in the 4 months before Brexit is due and if No Deal is the alternative that vote will almost certainly be to Remain. About 40 Tory MPs led by Amber Rudd have said they will vote for a peoples vote with opposition MPs if the alternative is No Deal.
Either that or most Leavers move to the Norway option fast given they will have killed off chances of a FTA0 -
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?0 -
I agree re Tat and Tornados.Alistair said:
30 years ago we didn't stop for a minutes silence on armistamce day. The only silence was on Rememberance Sunday. I don't remember wall to wall tat plastered in poppies, pop up Poppy shops on the high street, I don't remember a fucking Tornado plane covered in Poppy livery.kle4 said:
I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.Alistair said:
That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.JohnRussell said:
I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying itFoxy said:
Neither strange nor new:JohnRussell said:
Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying warFoxy said:
Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.anothernick said:
It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.RobD said:
I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html
Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
A bomber, covered in the symbol of quiet remeberance? Just, no.
But remember silence at school on Remembrance day from 5 onwards. And that was 26 years ago.0 -
That is not a compromise. That is invalidating the referendum result.matt said:
A compromise between doing significant harm to the economy and not, perhaps?kle4 said:
Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.williamglenn said:0 -
I agree it is not a compromise that is being offered. So assume, for a moment, that MPs simply will not tolerate a no deal Brexit (which is not as simple for them to avoid as they seem to think) - would you rather remain or BINO? Because those look like the options. I wouldn't blame people for thinking remain is preferable to BINO.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
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Probably not, but it does no harm. I have no issue if people think things are overblown, but as so often criticism of things being overblown can very easily be overblown themselves, if you follow me.Foxy said:
It depends how old you are.kle4 said:
I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.Alistair said:
That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.JohnRussell said:
I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying itFoxy said:
Neither strange nor new:JohnRussell said:
Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying warFoxy said:
Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.anothernick said:
It may rees.RobD said:
I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html
Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
Football fixtures with embroidered poppies on the shirts are a new thing for example. I was at the first ever one in 2003 (Leicester vs Blackburn), now it is ubiquitous. I don't object, and seeing the matchball delivered by the army helicopter has some amusement factor, but does it have the same significance to our Danish, German, Austrian, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Portuguese, Malian, Algerian and French players?0 -
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Hmmm. The Grand Ethiopian Rennaissance Dam across the Nile - and the consequential impact on Egyptian farming, electricity generation from the Aswan Dam, plus the lack of water to supply Cairo - could yet see those two countries go to war. As Sudan is going to be getting water for irrigation from it too, it could spill over into a nasty regional conflict.Foxy said:
My hospital has a link with the University hospital in Gondar, Ethiopia. It is not a place that I have been, but several of my colleagues are actively been involved. Ethiopia is looking up. The new prime minister has freed a lot of political prisoners, allowed political exiles to return and ended the war with Eritrea.kle4 said:In world news, the PM of Ethiopia seems like a very interesting chap - ever since he was appointed he seems to have been in a story on the BBC most weeks.
Ethiopia's prime minister has done press-ups with dozens of protesting soldiers, who had marched into his office in the capital, Addis Ababa.
Abiy Ahmed was unhappy that soldiers had brought weapons and ordered them to do 10 press-ups.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45822161
As ever, political progress in Africa is fragile, but Ethiopia seems on a good trajectory.
The Egptian Cabinet talked about how to blow up the dam - in a meeting that was "accidentally" broadcast live. The hope is that previous water sharing agreements regarding the Nile can be reworked, to allow Egypt to continue its use but it is not certain. Tripartite talks collapsed in 2017. Just filling the Grand Ethiopian Rennaissance Dam could take anything up to 15 years. That is a big problem for Egypt. All its other recent actions suggest it won't just meekly acquiesce....
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It was around the turn of the millennium that I noticed the step change from remeberance to poppy fetishisation.Foxy said:
It depends how old you are.
Football fixtures with embroidered poppies on the shirts are a new thing for example. I was at the first ever one in 2003 (Leicester vs Blackburn), now it is ubiquitous. I don't object, and seeing the matchball delivered by the army helicopter has some amusement factor, but does it have the same significance to our Danish, German, Austrian, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Portuguese, Malian, Algerian and French players?0 -
Everything in modern life is more vulgar and showbizzy than 30-40 years ago. I personally don’t like that but it’s the way it isAlistair said:
30 years ago we didn't stop for a minutes silence on armistamce day. The only silence was on Rememberance Sunday. I don't remember wall to wall tat plastered in poppies, pop up Poppy shops on the high street, I don't remember a fucking Tornado plane covered in Poppy livery.kle4 said:
I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.Alistair said:
That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.JohnRussell said:
I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying itFoxy said:
Neither strange nor new:JohnRussell said:
Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying warFoxy said:
I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.anothernick said:
It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.RobD said:
http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html
Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
A bomber, covered in the symbol of quiet remeberance? Just, no.0 -
I can surmise that some people will be very angry if there is ultimately a soft / CU Brexit 😳
However, I do think that's the closest position to the political centre of gravity / middle ground. 52 per cent definitely didn't vote for (or want) no deal....
The slightly unfortunate question that naturally arises is that, assuming the reaction to this in some quarters is "what's the point?"; does remain become the more attractive option.0 -
If MPs are not prepared to carry out the results of the referendum, then the honourable thing is that they vote publicly to overturn A50 and remain. They can then be voted out of office at the next election.kle4 said:
I agree it is not a compromise that is being offered. So assume, for a moment, that MPs simply will not tolerate a no deal Brexit (which is not as simple for them to avoid as they seem to think) - would you rather remain or BINO? Because those look like the options. I wouldn't blame people for thinking remain is preferable to BINO.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
Pretending to leave but locking us into EU control and lying about it is unacceptable.0 -
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!0 -
It’s still leaving the EU. I must have missed the foot-stamping “right now” on the ballot paper.archer101au said:
That is not a compromise. That is invalidating the referendum result.matt said:
A compromise between doing significant harm to the economy and not, perhaps?kle4 said:
Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.williamglenn said:0 -
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++0 -
For the first time , I agree with you. The next election would be interesting. I wonder what would be in the party manifestos? A second referendum?archer101au said:
If MPs are not prepared to carry out the results of the referendum, then the honourable thing is that they vote publicly to overturn A50 and remain. They can then be voted out of office at the next election.kle4 said:
I agree it is not a compromise that is being offered. So assume, for a moment, that MPs simply will not tolerate a no deal Brexit (which is not as simple for them to avoid as they seem to think) - would you rather remain or BINO? Because those look like the options. I wouldn't blame people for thinking remain is preferable to BINO.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
Pretending to leave but locking us into EU control and lying about it is unacceptable.0 -
It is still leaving the EU, but if the people who voted to leave wanted leaving to mean exactly the same as remaining, they would have voted Remain. Obviously it is legitimate for a PM who wants to Remain to do this, but its a bit like asking your neighbour to turn the tv down because the baby is trying to sleep, him doing so then proceeding to shout at the top of his voice whilst walking around the house crashing cymbalsmatt said:
It’s still leaving the EU. I must have missed the foot-stamping “right now” on the ballot paper.archer101au said:
That is not a compromise. That is invalidating the referendum result.matt said:
A compromise between doing significant harm to the economy and not, perhaps?kle4 said:
Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.williamglenn said:0 -
The DUP have not put paid to Canada +. They reject the backstop, as we should do.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.HYUFD said:
No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.
Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.
Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++
They have however put paid to Chequers.0 -
The Rangers have gone increasingly mental for anything military, poppies are the least of it. Needless to say there's not much of it going on at the other end of town.Foxy said:
It depends how old you are.
Football fixtures with embroidered poppies on the shirts are a new thing for example. I was at the first ever one in 2003 (Leicester vs Blackburn), now it is ubiquitous. I don't object, and seeing the matchball delivered by the army helicopter has some amusement factor, but does it have the same significance to our Danish, German, Austrian, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Portuguese, Malian, Algerian and French players?
https://twitter.com/18_coco_72/status/9268781946570874880 -
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.0 -
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.0 -
No chance of that , she will keep wibbling and wobbling.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:0 -
Without a solution to the backstop for the Irish border ie now a Customs Union until a technical solution is found Barnier has made clear there will be no deal, no transition period and no FTA talks.archer101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
If May gets her Deal through that will be it, there will be no referendum and certainly no referendum with No Deal as an option. If your fellow diehard Brexiteers block any Deal she agrees then as BigG correctly states there will only be 2 alternatives, a Norway option Brexit or a Remain v No Deal EU referendum before the end of March0 -
Just a minute. You said that if the EU would not engage with May's Chequers plan, then we would have to leave with no deal. You said it was unacceptable that they ignored her plan. You said that Remain or a second referendum would not be acceptable and the referendum result had to be implemented. You were right.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++
But nothing has changed. The EU continue to ignore Chequers. May has achieved nothing since Salzberg. All that has happened is that she is trying to hand the EU a veto over whether Brexit ever happens. There is no trade deal. All May will get is a load of guff that promises nothing and certainly will not offer Chequers or anything like it.
So why are you suddenly supporting it? If the EU were talking Chequers fair enough, but they are not. If you were sticking to your word, you would be saying that May is wrong.
Saying that "The DUP have put paid to Canada ++" is just wrong. the DUP are in favour of CETA. May is the one putting paid to CETA, because you cannot be in CETA and in a Customs Union. And she is signing us up to a CU forever.
It is not the DUP or ERG blocking a 'compromise'. There is no compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan. You should stick to your guns and insist that there can be no backstop without agreement on Chequers. Then we would both end up at the same place.0 -
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal0 -
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.0 -
Same as Scotland, which is even more rumCarlottaVance said:
While I don’t hold with groups holding the whole of the country to ransome in this case it looks like they are being asked to accept rules over which they will have no say....which does seem a bit rum...SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
The sooner the LOL bring down the Tories the better.0 -
9 DUP at present going to 10 at end of NovemberSquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.0 -
Good news for Remainers like myself . Brexit is eating itself and this lunacy should end soon either with the softest of exits or better still no Brexit. As I always suspected the nutjob ERG coupled with the even nuttier DUP would push too hard and destroy Brexit with no help needed from us Remainers !0
-
Why do the government say that no deal is better than a bad deal. You’re saying any deal is better than no deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal0 -
You better have a word with Northern Irish qualified lawyers about there being differences only because of devolution.Philip_Thompson said:
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.0 -
If not for Scotland would the Tories not be in power right now?malcolmg said:
Same as Scotland, which is even more rumCarlottaVance said:
While I don’t hold with groups holding the whole of the country to ransome in this case it looks like they are being asked to accept rules over which they will have no say....which does seem a bit rum...SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
The sooner the LOL bring down the Tories the better.0 -
But same does not apply for Scotland , so explain that one. Parliament voted for second referendum but were crapped on by Tories.Philip_Thompson said:
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.
PS what is this GB, it is UK0 -
Sadly not. I am content with Norway and all the indications are that it would pass easily.archer101au said:
Just a minute. You said that if the EU would not engage with May's Chequers plan, then we would have to leave with no deal. You said it was unacceptable that they ignored her plan. You said that Remain or a second referendum would not be acceptable and the referendum result had to be implemented. You were right.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++
But nothing has changed. The EU continue to ignore Chequers. May has achieved nothing since Salzberg. All that has happened is that she is trying to hand the EU a veto over whether Brexit ever happens. There is no trade deal. All May will get is a load of guff that promises nothing and certainly will not offer Chequers or anything like it.
So why are you suddenly supporting it? If the EU were talking Chequers fair enough, but they are not. If you were sticking to your word, you would be saying that May is wrong.
Saying that "The DUP have put paid to Canada ++" is just wrong. the DUP are in favour of CETA. May is the one putting paid to CETA, because you cannot be in CETA and in a Customs Union. And she is signing us up to a CU forever.
It is not the DUP or ERG blocking a 'compromise'. There is no compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan. You should stick to your guns and insist that there can be no backstop without agreement on Chequers. Then we would both end up at the same place.
Canada has few supporters outside ERG who have failed to explain how to prevent an Irish sea border ot jit manufacturing.
I want to leave and for me Norway returns our fishing and control to our Scottish fishing Industry which is my wife's heritage
The DUP have said tonight no deal or Norway, so it is Norway for me0 -
Which laws are different between NI and GB because of non-NI and non-GB voters choosing them to be so?matt said:
You better have a word with Northern Irish qualified lawyers about there being differences only because of devolution.Philip_Thompson said:
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.0 -
GB is rUK excluding NI.malcolmg said:
But same does not apply for Scotland , so explain that one. Parliament voted for second referendum but were crapped on by Tories.Philip_Thompson said:
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.
PS what is this GB, it is UK0 -
Welcome to PBnico67 said:Good news for Remainers like myself . Brexit is eating itself and this lunacy should end soon either with the softest of exits or better still no Brexit. As I always suspected the nutjob ERG coupled with the even nuttier DUP would push too hard and destroy Brexit with no help needed from us Remainers !
And I agree with you0 -
With respect, this is why the country is so divided. Remainers have been trying to tell Leavers what they think since the day after the referendum. You thought you were the majority for decades and you were wrong. Now you are saying that we really support Soft Brexit (or BINO). You are wrong. Leave means Leave. Handing control over whether we can leave to the EU is not Brexit. Leavers will not accept it. And we are the majority.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal0 -
Idiots for sure, ably assisted by their dopey partners Scottish Labour regional office who gave them their votes. Bigger idiots you could not find.kle4 said:
If not for Scotland would the Tories not be in power right now?malcolmg said:
Same as Scotland, which is even more rumCarlottaVance said:
While I don’t hold with groups holding the whole of the country to ransome in this case it looks like they are being asked to accept rules over which they will have no say....which does seem a bit rum...SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
The sooner the LOL bring down the Tories the better.0 -
Well, May is not offering Norway. So does that mean that you oppose her?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sadly not. I am content with Norway and all the indications are that it would pass easily.archer101au said:
Just a minute. You said that if the EU would not engage with May's Chequers plan, then we would have to leave with no deal. You said it was unacceptable that they ignored her plan. You said that Remain or a second referendum would not be acceptable and the referendum result had to be implemented. You were right.
But nothing has changed. The EU continue to ignore Chequers. May has achieved nothing since Salzberg. All that has happened is that she is trying to hand the EU a veto over whether Brexit ever happens. There is no trade deal. All May will get is a load of guff that promises nothing and certainly will not offer Chequers or anything like it.
So why are you suddenly supporting it? If the EU were talking Chequers fair enough, but they are not. If you were sticking to your word, you would be saying that May is wrong.
Saying that "The DUP have put paid to Canada ++" is just wrong. the DUP are in favour of CETA. May is the one putting paid to CETA, because you cannot be in CETA and in a Customs Union. And she is signing us up to a CU forever.
It is not the DUP or ERG blocking a 'compromise'. There is no compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan. You should stick to your guns and insist that there can be no backstop without agreement on Chequers. Then we would both end up at the same place.
Canada has few supporters outside ERG who have failed to explain how to prevent an Irish sea border ot jit manufacturing.
I want to leave and for me Norway returns our fishing and control to our Scottish fishing Industry which is my wife's heritage
The DUP have said tonight no deal or Norway, so it is Norway for me0 -
G , Westminster will never give Scotland control of fishing, it will be retained powers or used as bargaining chip. You are dreaming if you think Scotland will control fishing unless independent.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sadly not. I am content with Norway and all the indications are that it would pass easily.archer101au said:
.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++
Canada has few supporters outside ERG who have failed to explain how to prevent an Irish sea border ot jit manufacturing.
I want to leave and for me Norway returns our fishing and control to our Scottish fishing Industry which is my wife's heritage
The DUP have said tonight no deal or Norway, so it is Norway for me0 -
GB appears nowhere, it is United Kingdom and NIPhilip_Thompson said:
GB is rUK excluding NI.malcolmg said:
But same does not apply for Scotland , so explain that one. Parliament voted for second referendum but were crapped on by Tories.Philip_Thompson said:
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.
PS what is this GB, it is UK0 -
Old....0
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You are knowledgable and intelligent but your last sentence is 'hype'.archer101au said:
With respect, this is why the country is so divided. Remainers have been trying to tell Leavers what they think since the day after the referendum. You thought you were the majority for decades and you were wrong. Now you are saying that we really support Soft Brexit (or BINO). You are wrong. Leave means Leave. Handing control over whether we can leave to the EU is not Brexit. Leavers will not accept it. And we are the majority.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal
You are not a majority especially in the HOC with 550 plus mps against and virtually all the HOL
In the country remain supporters outnumber you and many leavers are happy for BINO
0 -
Thanks I was willing to accept the result and move on in the hope a sensible exit would happen . However it’s turning into a monumental disaster driven by the ERG and DUP nutjobs . May is too spineless to go down fighting and is more interested in hanging onto her job which is hilarious given she’s gone by next spring anyway . I don’t care how Brexit is ditched but it needs to be put out of its misery .Big_G_NorthWales said:
Welcome to PBnico67 said:Good news for Remainers like myself . Brexit is eating itself and this lunacy should end soon either with the softest of exits or better still no Brexit. As I always suspected the nutjob ERG coupled with the even nuttier DUP would push too hard and destroy Brexit with no help needed from us Remainers !
And I agree with you
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TM deal yes - no deal unacceptable - if TM gets no deal then the choice needs to go to the countryJonathan said:
Why do the government say that no deal is better than a bad deal. You’re saying any deal is better than no deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.HYUFD said:
No YOU just don't get it do you. You pontificate from Australia about how we will go to No Deal and true Brexit and the voters will all be fine and dandy with the economy crashing and the UK potentially breaking up without a single poll to back you up while rejecting any form of compromise May makes with the EU to enable talks on any sort of FTA.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
Chequers plus Remain was comfortably ahead of No Deal in the polls, not a single poll has shown No Deal would beat Remain in an EUref2. Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA the only sustainable Brexit left will be a Norway style one, if you do not like that tough, you have hoist yourself with your own petard!
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal0 -
No it isn't. NI is part of the United Kingdom.malcolmg said:
GB appears nowhere, it is United Kingdom and NIPhilip_Thompson said:
GB is rUK excluding NI.malcolmg said:
But same does not apply for Scotland , so explain that one. Parliament voted for second referendum but were crapped on by Tories.Philip_Thompson said:
What are the DUP screwing? All the DUP are asking for is to be treated the same as everyone else in the UK. That's entirely reasonable!SquareRoot said:
IS it 11? DUP votes that could screw the whole process? I'd rather T May called A GE .MarqueeMark said:
Last time I looked, the DUP democratically represents one of the four component countries of the United Kingdom. They represent their loyalist voters in Westminster. (That Sinn Fein chooses not to take their seats is for them to consider. But for now, the only voice of Northern Ireland in Westminster is the DUP, whose members voted overwhelmingly to Brexit.) As democratically elected representatives, they have every right - probably more so - to "influence the process" than the arch-Remainers of Soubry and Clarke and Grieve and Wollaston, who were elected as Conservative MPs under a Manifesto that pledged to Brexit whilst exiting the CU.SquareRoot said:
Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the processCarlottaVance said:
Theresa May gave the DUP their power by calling a wholly unnecesary General Election. The DUP are happily playing the hand dealt them. If our Government took some lessons and played with the same steely determination in their dealings with Brussels, we might have got somewhere sooner. Indeed, Cameron might not have lost the Referendum in the first place.
Some of the attitudes expressed about the Northern Irish on this site in recent days have shown up a number of the posters on this site in a very poor light.
The only variances in laws between GB and NI should be due to devolution and because NI have asked for a change, not because voters outside of NI have demanded one.
PS what is this GB, it is UK
It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Hmm ... I wonder where GB came from?0 -
TM is in negotiation and I support her in that endeavour but politics is moving fast away from no deal and she may have to tack towards Norway, but we will see how it evolves over the next few weeksarcher101au said:
Well, May is not offering Norway. So does that mean that you oppose her?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sadly not. I am content with Norway and all the indications are that it would pass easily.archer101au said:
Just a minute. You said that if the EU would not engage with May's Chequers plan, then we would have to leave with no deal. You said it was unacceptable that they ignored her plan. You said that Remain or a second referendum would not be acceptable and the referendum result had to be implemented. You were right.
But nothing has changed. The EU continue to ignore Chequers. May has achieved nothing since Salzberg. All that has happened is that she is trying to hand the EU a veto over whether Brexit ever happens. There is no trade deal. All May will get is a load of guff that promises nothing and certainly will not offer Chequers or anything like it.
So why are you suddenly supporting it? If the EU were talking Chequers fair enough, but they are not. If you were sticking to your word, you would be saying that May is wrong.
Saying that "The DUP have put paid to Canada ++" is just wrong. the DUP are in favour of CETA. May is the one putting paid to CETA, because you cannot be in CETA and in a Customs Union. And she is signing us up to a CU forever.
It is not the DUP or ERG blocking a 'compromise'. There is no compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan. You should stick to your guns and insist that there can be no backstop without agreement on Chequers. Then we would both end up at the same place.
Canada has few supporters outside ERG who have failed to explain how to prevent an Irish sea border ot jit manufacturing.
I want to leave and for me Norway returns our fishing and control to our Scottish fishing Industry which is my wife's heritage
The DUP have said tonight no deal or Norway, so it is Norway for me
0 -
We won the referendum. And we will win in the HoC as well. May's 'deal' will be defeated and we will leave with No Deal. Parliament doesn't have the guts to overtly overturn the referendum result. They don't actually have any other options.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are knowledgable and intelligent but your last sentence is 'hype'.archer101au said:
With respect, this is why the country is so divided. Remainers have been trying to tell Leavers what they think since the day after the referendum. You thought you were the majority for decades and you were wrong. Now you are saying that we really support Soft Brexit (or BINO). You are wrong. Leave means Leave. Handing control over whether we can leave to the EU is not Brexit. Leavers will not accept it. And we are the majority.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal
You are not a majority especially in the HOC with 550 plus mps against and virtually all the HOL
In the country remain supporters outnumber you and many leavers are happy for BINO
But back to the point. May's approach is not going to achieve Norway. So why support her offering a backstop that will simply create a new cliff edge in December 2020? If you want Norway, surely it is time to come out and oppose May who has no plan whatsoever now?0 -
I expect an agreement between the parliaments and TM knows she has several seats in the Scottish fishing communitymalcolmg said:
G , Westminster will never give Scotland control of fishing, it will be retained powers or used as bargaining chip. You are dreaming if you think Scotland will control fishing unless independent.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sadly not. I am content with Norway and all the indications are that it would pass easily.archer101au said:
.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++
Canada has few supporters outside ERG who have failed to explain how to prevent an Irish sea border ot jit manufacturing.
I want to leave and for me Norway returns our fishing and control to our Scottish fishing Industry which is my wife's heritage
The DUP have said tonight no deal or Norway, so it is Norway for me0 -
There was a time I was willing to placate Leavers but no more . They voted for a fantasy outcome where the UK kept all the benefits without the obligations . And on immigration that’s rocketing from non EU countries and falling rapidly from the EU so why this obsession with keeping fellow Europeans out. The Brexit con job is falling apart and this lunacy must end .0
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More important than Brexit: a new world record
https://twitter.com/xxlfunny1/status/10499678081284382740 -
I really give up with your blind belief and you are in denial over the HOCarcher101au said:
We won the referendum. And we will win in the HoC as well. May's 'deal' will be defeated and we will leave with No Deal. Parliament doesn't have the guts to overtly overturn the referendum result. They don't actually have any other options.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are knowledgable and intelligent but your last sentence is 'hype'.archer101au said:
With respect, this is why the country is so divided. Remainers have been trying to tell Leavers what they think since the day after the referendum. You thought you were the majority for decades and you were wrong. Now you are saying that we really support Soft Brexit (or BINO). You are wrong. Leave means Leave. Handing control over whether we can leave to the EU is not Brexit. Leavers will not accept it. And we are the majority.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal
You are not a majority especially in the HOC with 550 plus mps against and virtually all the HOL
In the country remain supporters outnumber you and many leavers are happy for BINO
But back to the point. May's approach is not going to achieve Norway. So why support her offering a backstop that will simply create a new cliff edge in December 2020? If you want Norway, surely it is time to come out and oppose May who has no plan whatsoever now?
I will not oppose TM until I see her deal or see someone who could resolve this better
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TM is not negotiating a deal. She is negotiating a No Deal, just a different type of No Deal. In May's No Deal, we pay all the money and kick the can down the road for 20 months but don't get anything in return. The political declaration will not offer any actual trade deal, just a series of options that are not going to be acceptable. And in 20 months time, we will be back at the cliff edge because we can't activate the backstop.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM deal yes - no deal unacceptable - if TM gets no deal then the choice needs to go to the countryJonathan said:
Why do the government say that no deal is better than a bad deal. You’re saying any deal is better than no deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I did say earlier yours is a minority view and your last sentence is a minority view of a minorityarcher101au said:
May is not making a compromise now. She promised that if the Cabinet supported her compromise (Chequers) and the EU would not accept it, she would go for No Deal. The EU rejected her plan. She is now simply selling out by refusing to implement Brexit and giving the EU a veto over it happening in future.
Your lack of understanding is legendary. "Given you will have destroyed the chance of a FTA.." - er, staying in the CU is incompatible with a FTA. It is the Leavers who are in favour of an FTA. May is not. She is now ensuring that there can never be an FTA. And is she getting Chequers instead? Of course not! She is getting nothing in return - no concessions, no plan. Just no Brexit.
Nobody cares what the polls say about Remain. Remain is not an option and your silly second referendum is never going to happen. When the polls are done for the REAL choice - May's deal vs No Deal - the majority will favour No Deal.
There will not be a no deal
I expect the ERG will frame the debate as the choice between No Deal and No Deal.
Oh, and by the way, in the EEA/CU of which you dream, you will not get control of fishing.0 -
Always good to have a Remainer remind us why you lost the referendum.nico67 said:There was a time I was willing to placate Leavers but no more . They voted for a fantasy outcome where the UK kept all the benefits without the obligations . And on immigration that’s rocketing from non EU countries and falling rapidly from the EU so why this obsession with keeping fellow Europeans out. The Brexit con job is falling apart and this lunacy must end .
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The fishing industry is just a red herring. They are not the sole feature to stop Brexit. They are only invoked by people trawling for an argument, especially Kippers.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I expect an agreement between the parliaments and TM knows she has several seats in the Scottish fishing communitymalcolmg said:
G , Westminster will never give Scotland control of fishing, it will be retained powers or used as bargaining chip. You are dreaming if you think Scotland will control fishing unless independent.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sadly not. I am content with Norway and all the indications are that it would pass easily.archer101au said:
.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why do you hector posters in the way you do.archer101au said:
You just can't get it, can you? It is not the Leavers who are refusing to compromise. The EU have rejected May's plan - they have refused to compromise. She has no other plan. So she expects to ignore the referendum result. Not going to happen.
There is no compromise here. May is not engaging in a compromise with the EU. She is selling out and receiving NOTHING in return.
You and your polls predicted that the public were desperate for Soft Brexit and would fall in behind Chequers. How did that go for you?
You are in a minority view in the UK by any measure and you will not convert posters to your cause with your attitude to them.
The UK seems to be heading to Norway ++ deal or remain through a second referendum.
Today's poll has seen a move towards EEA and a big move away from no deal. As HYUFD has called it for some time it will be a BINO or second referendum. The DUP have put paid to Canada ++
Canada has few supporters outside ERG who have failed to explain how to prevent an Irish sea border ot jit manufacturing.
I want to leave and for me Norway returns our fishing and control to our Scottish fishing Industry which is my wife's heritage
The DUP have said tonight no deal or Norway, so it is Norway for me0 -
Might seem a daft question but can anyone tell me:
If the Govt hasn't itself even decided what type of Brexit we want, what is currerntly being negotiated with the EU?
eg IF the Govt suddenly went for a Norway model, would they just say "Forget all discussions up to now, how about this?"0 -
Last!0
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How do you placate Leavers? Leave a saucer of milk out of an evening?nico67 said:There was a time I was willing to placate Leavers but no more . They voted for a fantasy outcome where the UK kept all the benefits without the obligations . And on immigration that’s rocketing from non EU countries and falling rapidly from the EU so why this obsession with keeping fellow Europeans out. The Brexit con job is falling apart and this lunacy must end .
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NEW THREAD
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And you couldn't even get that because Mr Eagles upstaged you!Scrapheap_as_was said:Last!
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buggerydoethur said:
And you couldn't even get that because Mr Eagles upstaged you!Scrapheap_as_was said:Last!
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This discussion has been closed.