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  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
  • Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    The problem is telling the diferrence. Even in hindsight, basically impossible.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    What a shame the US cancelled the F136 alternative engine. We should have pulled out of the project the moment they did that ...
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    Do people get that hyperbolic when Airbus, Boeing or one of the engine OEMs issues an AD or changes repetitive inspection times? The desire to advertise marginal knowledge going on ignorance is startling.
  • “In November 1924, the Prince of Wales (later Edward VIII) visited the Poppy Factory, which made 27 million poppies that year”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_Factory
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
  • matt said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    Do people get that hyperbolic when Airbus, Boeing or one of the engine OEMs issues an AD or changes repetitive inspection times? The desire to advertise marginal knowledge going on ignorance is startling.
    That's the joy of the internet. Everyone has a voice and thinks they're an expert. I mean, just look at my posts. And most of the rest on here :-)
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220



    The problem is telling the diferrence. Even in hindsight, basically impossible.

    Sometimes you're (The US in particular) is damned if you do (Bush, Iraq) and damned if you don't (Obama, Syria)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    matt said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    Do people get that hyperbolic when Airbus, Boeing or one of the engine OEMs issues an AD or changes repetitive inspection times? The desire to advertise marginal knowledge going on ignorance is startling.
    Well, their 'your aircraft carrier hasn't got any planes' has pretty much run its course....so they have to think of something else.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited October 2018

    matt said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    Do people get that hyperbolic when Airbus, Boeing or one of the engine OEMs issues an AD or changes repetitive inspection times? The desire to advertise marginal knowledge going on ignorance is startling.
    Well, their 'your aircraft carrier hasn't got any planes' has pretty much run its course....so they have to think of something else.....
    Aren't we borrowing one off La Royale ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    matt said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    Do people get that hyperbolic when Airbus, Boeing or one of the engine OEMs issues an AD or changes repetitive inspection times? The desire to advertise marginal knowledge going on ignorance is startling.
    There's probably several things going on. It's a massive high-tech toy of the modern military, and therefore ripe for ridicule. It's late, massively over-budget and controversial. And finally there are other branches of the forces, and other suppliers, who'd quite like the numbers reduced so that the money saved would be spent on other shiny high-tech toys for, or from, them.

    So much has been spent on this project (and I quite like it as a plane, although IANAE and like shiny toys) that you'd hope the roll-out to be fairly straightforward.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Bit more than a rounding error in the accounts....
    Once its wound up, HMRC should get their money and the government will final get their cake and eat it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
  • JohnRussellJohnRussell Posts: 297
    edited October 2018
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    WWI was heavily censored, but WWII much less so. In the case of the latter, most people would have had a reasonably clear idea of what was going on.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    Fenman said:

    Bit more than a rounding error in the accounts....
    Once its wound up, HMRC should get their money and the government will final get their cake and eat it.
    It is best not to sugar coat these things. You don't want things crumb-ling all over the plate.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited October 2018

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
    The scope and breadth of WWI was extraordinary and hence it is perfectly understandable that there should have been a corresponding reaction to it.

    And as for @Sean_F, there was still a lot of Pathe-isation in WWII. Whereas not so much of this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUkmKRM3Qk
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
    The scope and breadth of WWI was extraordinary and hence it is perfectly understandable that there should have been a corresponding reaction to it.

    And as for @Sean_F, there was still a lot of Pathe-isation in WWII. Whereas not so much of this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUkmKRM3Qk
    This is one of the most shocking WWII videos I've seen. People get badly hurt on camera. Don't watch if that will upset you. It wasn't all sanitised 'They don't like it up 'em, sir!' stuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBI9d0-IfEM
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
    The scope and breadth of WWI was extraordinary and hence it is perfectly understandable that there should have been a corresponding reaction to it.

    And as for @Sean_F, there was still a lot of Pathe-isation in WWII. Whereas not so much of this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUkmKRM3Qk
    My mate is in Kabul at the moment, working private security for the Japanese. He works eight weeks on, four off. He said it's gotten really bad out there this past 12 months. He showed me some footage of a suicide car bomber taken from their dashcam this summer. Nobody was killed except the bomber, but still mental to watch.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
    The scope and breadth of WWI was extraordinary and hence it is perfectly understandable that there should have been a corresponding reaction to it.

    And as for @Sean_F, there was still a lot of Pathe-isation in WWII. Whereas not so much of this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUkmKRM3Qk
    This is one of the most shocking WWII videos I've seen. People get badly hurt on camera. Don't watch if that will upset you. It wasn't all sanitised 'They don't like it up 'em, sir!' stuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBI9d0-IfEM
    There was plenty of grim footage on The World at War.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
    The scope and breadth of WWI was extraordinary and hence it is perfectly understandable that there should have been a corresponding reaction to it.

    And as for @Sean_F, there was still a lot of Pathe-isation in WWII. Whereas not so much of this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUkmKRM3Qk
    This is one of the most shocking WWII videos I've seen. People get badly hurt on camera. Don't watch if that will upset you. It wasn't all sanitised 'They don't like it up 'em, sir!' stuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBI9d0-IfEM
    No indeed. Then again, at that time there weren't youths walking down Oxford Street, or in Nandos watching it all on their iPhones.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Fenster said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    When I was growing up in the Seventies and Eighties, there were plenty of veterans at Remembrance Services
    Yes the remembrance industry really took off after the Falklands I think.
    No I don't think so it was still a grubby, dirty little secret then. Soldiers transmogrified much later, maybe with seeds around Gulf I. It then grew with Gulf II, Afghan, and beyond, by which time HMF were full blown "heroes". Perhaps a reaction to the numbers coming back injured as well as those who died.
    It was also as a result of social media. Prior to that, campaigns were mainly shrouded in mystery and, as I said, grubby, and arguably immoral. Once the country could see a properly televised war, embedded journalists, and watch firefights in Sangin on youtube set to music by The Automatic, then perceptions changed, and responses to the soldiers and "soldiers" was changed accordingly.
    How does that tally with 27 million poppies made in 1924?
    The scope and breadth of WWI was extraordinary and hence it is perfectly understandable that there should have been a corresponding reaction to it.

    And as for @Sean_F, there was still a lot of Pathe-isation in WWII. Whereas not so much of this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvUkmKRM3Qk
    My mate is in Kabul at the moment, working private security for the Japanese. He works eight weeks on, four off. He said it's gotten really bad out there this past 12 months. He showed me some footage of a suicide car bomber taken from their dashcam this summer. Nobody was killed except the bomber, but still mental to watch.
    Yep it's keeping ex-HMF personnel well engaged albeit the work is not as lucrative as it once was.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Ivan Rodgers gave a speech last night at Cambridge Uni. For those interested the transcript is here.

    https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2018

    AndyJS said:

    Dadge said:

    If May lost the Brexit vote and told HMQ her govt was resigning, what would Corbyn do? As things stand he can't get any kind of legislative programme passed. I assume he'd immediately call a general election in order to get the approx 15 more MPs he needs to be able to form a de facto coalition government that would support some of his programme.

    He would have no choice, is how I understand it. If he cannot command the house, and that effectively means win a confidence vote, then it's an election.
    This is the latest ElectoralCalculus forecast based on recent polls:

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

    Con 305 (-13)
    Lab 262 (nc)
    LD 17 (+5)
    SNP 44 (+9)
    PC 3 (-1)
    Greens 1 (nc)
    Others 18 (nc)
    Wow, that's even more unworkable than what they've got now. Con-SNP? Grand Coalition with a Tory Prime Minister and Jeremy Corbyn as Chancellor or Foreign Secretary?
    It effectively gives the LDs a veto on any type of government.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2018
    matt said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    No not "big implications". Engineers will examine, design fix, implement. During the fix/implement time, there will be a regime of more-frequent inspections, or replacements at shorter intervals than before, or a limit to 6G turns or something. Happens all the time.
    Do people get that hyperbolic when Airbus, Boeing or one of the engine OEMs issues an AD or changes repetitive inspection times? The desire to advertise marginal knowledge going on ignorance is startling.
    To be fair, it did result in a smoking crater. But then again there's only one engine on one of those beasts. Commercial airliners have a tad more redundancy! But to answer your question, no they, don't, other than the usual excitement on social media when a fan blade, or disc fragment leaves holes in places where there aren't normally holes. The lack of grounding the fleet even in those instances is telling in itself.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    I scrolled past that and assumed it was Monaco.

    Should have gone to Specsavers.
    that bloke sat outside Greggs is Roger
    Naughty Alan. One Greggs/Roger joke per quarter is quite enough.
    I presume we all know it is World Obesity day today....apparently we should all be ending our stigma / prejudices of fatties.

    https://twitter.com/WorldObesity/status/1050364129016520706
    I'll be celebrating with a 6 mile run this evening, need to drop around a stone to get out of the obese category acording to http://bmi.webmasters.sk/bmi-table.php.. quite how it is the same for men and women I'm not sure though given men's naturally higher muscle mass.
    because BMI is an absolute bollocks metric....
    It doesn't work for bulky people with a lot of muscle rather than fat. At least that's what I've read.
    I think that's used as an excuse by more people than it is true for. However I think my legs are unusually short for my height (31", just under 6'1 tall).
    Edit: It's also curious as to why the chart is the same for males and females, a woman at 20% bodyfat will look a hell of alot fitter/leaner than a man with the same.
    A lot of rugby players would be classified as overweight using BMI despite being good athletes so I don't think it's always an excuse.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Glenn, better to remain in the EU than to leave on those terms, subject to the EU rules without even a glimmer of influence. It'd be an insane thing to agree.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    WW1 was preventable in 1914

    we should have sat it out
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    Yes, IMHO, had we been willing to act as soon as it was clear that Germany was not prepared to abide by the terms of the Versailles Treaty.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    WW1 was preventable in 1914

    we should have sat it out
    The French would still have won on the Marne without us, in 1914, and so there would have been a lengthy slogging match on the Eastern and Western fronts.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    murali_s said:

    O/T Amber weather warning : South Wales

    https://twitter.com/metoffice/status/1050327488860172288

    Amber Rudd visiting Wales?
    Just checked my local weather and it is forecast to rain until the 23rd of October
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    Yes, probably so. Unconditional surrender and occupation, or a less punitive treaty of Versaillies.

    Or even a lifting of the economic blockade in the period between the armistice and the treaty. Estimates vary, but perhaps 100,000 Germans died of hunger during the eight months postwar blockade.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited October 2018
    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his male soldiers mangling puppies to death and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Mr. Glenn, better to remain in the EU than to leave on those terms, subject to the EU rules without even a glimmer of influence. It'd be an insane thing to agree.

    Insane? You seem to think that "EU rules" will lead to mass starvation and apocalyptic landscapes. What exactly do you think they are going to do, given the same rules will apply in Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Warsaw, ... , ... ?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    I think the more vocal brexiteers might object, but I have a feeling the foot soldiers are getting tired of the whole thing. The 3 or 4 people I know in real life who have expressed phobic opinions in the past seem noticeably quiet about the whole thing now. If May's plan is to obfuscate, frustrate and bore the opposition to a soft Brexit into torpid inaction - I think it is working.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Glenn, better to remain in the EU than to leave on those terms, subject to the EU rules without even a glimmer of influence. It'd be an insane thing to agree.

    And our hanky-waving friend provides more data to support my idea.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    Hard to restrain the French desire for vengeance after their abject humiliation in 1870-71.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    No, because it's only really obvious that's where we were heading in retrospect.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Roger said:

    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his soldiers mangling puppies to death while and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.

    I thoroughly enjoyed the puppies being stabbed to death in the first two minutes. Really liked that. URGH, horrible viewing.

    Seriously though, it is very very good. Assad does come across as a conflicted bloke but he lacked the bravery to challenge the anti-US, anti-Jew strain in the Middle East, pandered to the loony Islamic extremists and has since reaped what he sowed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,728
    Roger said:

    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his soldiers mangling puppies to death while and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.

    Yes, not a beast:

    https://www.dw.com/en/syrian-women-tortured-and-humiliated-in-assad-regime-prisons/a-43600204
    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/aug/18/saydnaya-prison-syria-assad-amnesty-reconstruction
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/11/images-syrian-torture-shock-new-yorkers-united-nations

    And that's just his prisons.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    .
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    Yes, probably so. Unconditional surrender and occupation, or a less punitive treaty of Versaillies.

    Or even a lifting of the economic blockade in the period between the armistice and the treaty. Estimates vary, but perhaps 100,000 Germans died of hunger during the eight months postwar blockade.
    Easy to say with the distance of a century. Millions dead, millions more seriously wounded, with men from almost every town and village killed. The desire for revenge or at least *some* punitive measures was very strong, and politically overwhelming.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    Hard to restrain the French desire for vengeance after their abject humiliation in 1870-71.
    Not to mention what they suffered in 1914-18. In reality, the peace terms imposed on Germany were pretty generous.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Roger said:

    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his male soldiers mangling puppies to death and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.

    For those of us who know the area, I didn't realise that civilised meant one could wire somebody's testicles to the mains and flick the switch and still be seen as good chaps by you.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    WW1 was preventable in 1914

    we should have sat it out
    The French would still have won on the Marne without us, in 1914, and so there would have been a lengthy slogging match on the Eastern and Western fronts.
    the french wouldnt have got much past 1915
    then peace
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I think the more vocal brexiteers might object, but I have a feeling the foot soldiers are getting tired of the whole thing. The 3 or 4 people I know in real life who have expressed phobic opinions in the past seem noticeably quiet about the whole thing now. If May's plan is to obfuscate, frustrate and bore the opposition to a soft Brexit into torpid inaction - I think it is working.
    The more vocal brexiteers might try learning from people here on the concept of banking gains. A run of luck rarely lasts forever.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Roger said:

    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his male soldiers mangling puppies to death and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.

    the Assads back Brext
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Sometimes, war is unavoidable.
    and all too often it is entirely avoidable.
    Not in the case of either World War, unless we were prepared to acquiesce in Germany's war aims and leave our allies in the lurch.
    Both wars were preventable, but not at the last minute. Peace takes decades to build, but can be demolished much more quickly by those who forget the price of war. As indeed we may find out in Northern Ireland.
    It's hard to prevent war when one or more parties wants war.
    Hence the importance of early intervention and constant watchfulness. WW2 may not have been preventable in 1938, but was that true in 1930?
    It was probably preventable in 1918.
    Hard to restrain the French desire for vengeance after their abject humiliation in 1870-71.
    they were even more humiliated in 1940
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited October 2018
    I question the premise that Labour MPs are as opposed to Corbyn as they claim. Actions speak louder than words. Yes they fought hard against him becoming leader, tried to take him down while leader, but only one was willing to confirm they don't want him as PM, and bar the occasional flutter of noise of anti-semitism they usually seem to keep very quiet, and on domestic issues there seems a lot less disagreement.

    So while I don't doubt loads of MPs remain who really don't want him to be Labour leader let alone PM, and that they are opposed to him becoming PM, I don't think they are totally opposed to it, to the point of a threat to call him as PM being the thing that will persuade them.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    UK, YouGov poll:

    CON-ECR: 41% (-1)
    LAB-S&D: 37% (+1)
    LDEM-ALDE: 9%
    UKIP-EFDD: 4% (-1)
    SNP/PC-G/EFA: 4%
    GREENS-G/EFA: 2%

    Field work: 08/10/18 – 09/10/18"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2018
    matt said:

    Roger said:

    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his male soldiers mangling puppies to death and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.

    For those of us who know the area, I didn't realise that civilised meant one could wire somebody's testicles to the mains and flick the switch and still be seen as good chaps by you.
    As noted, the 'primitive' Saudis have to use cudgels and boiling oil to assualt one's dangly bits. Civilisation in Syria means the modern marvel of electricity can be used, which is much more sanitary.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.

    Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.

    Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    Anorak said:

    matt said:

    Roger said:

    For anyone who hasn't seen the BBC prog about the Assad family it's well worth watching. As I suspected Bashir comes accross as sincere and thoughtful and a long way from the beast that has been painted. His father is a different story. Watching his male soldiers mangling puppies to death and getting the female soldiers to bite the heads off snakes for his amusement was something else.

    For those who know the area the contrast between the primitive Saudis and the more civilised Lebanese and Syrians couldn't be more stark.

    For those of us who know the area, I didn't realise that civilised meant one could wire somebody's testicles to the mains and flick the switch and still be seen as good chaps by you.
    As noted, the 'primitive' Saudis have to use cudgels and boiling oil to assualt one's dangly bits. Civilisation in Syria means the modern marvel of electricity can be used, which is much more sanitary.
    There are much worse things one can do to a victim's private parts than either of those.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    The EU has told May to bolt once more.

    She has made a pigs ear of this again.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Mogg is an (intelligent) idiot, so who knows what he might do?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    A shocking apostrophe from Laura, who should really know better.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    In a voodo poll, 52% of Independent readers say drop the poppy tradition whilst 26% say keep it, 22% don't know. Poor show.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    It may indeed be overdone, but what it is not is glorifying war. People can wear whatever they want, but remembrance of WW1 in particular is very maudlin, and it is drummed in from school days how pointless it all was, how tragic. If there was ever a need for a different kind of poppy to get away from the glorification of war, that day is not now, making it pretty darn redundant, and even more aggressive virtue signalling than just a regular poppy.

    It's a virtue signalling war, in effect.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    A compromise between doing significant harm to the economy and not, perhaps?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    The EU has told May to bolt once more.

    She has made a pigs ear of this again.
    May is in a very weak position and keeps coming up with options. Crap options, to be sure, and ones which are certain to be rejected, but that is only partly the fault of her own weakness, and partly the weakness of those who refuse to just openly attempt to remove her and change direction. OK, it might not work, but every second she continues on in her weak way and offers further solutions, no matter how bad those solutions may be, without them actually doing more than moaning, makes them look as weak as she does.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    matt said:

    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    A compromise between doing significant harm to the economy and not, perhaps?
    Political reality is relevant. May already couldn't get what the EU were demanding through, she cannot do so if they demand more without offering more. It may well do significant harm, which is why May would attempt this, but it isn't a compromise, it's just a climbdown.

    Even a climbdown may be the best option, regrettably, but the fundamental problem remains there are not the votes for that, making it pointless.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2018

    Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.

    Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.

    Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/

    No we don't retain all the obligations of membership, or the membership costs. Only some of them which relate to the SM. We are obliged to comply with WTO rules too, with (virtually) no say in setting them.

    And you must be new to the internet if you don't recognise the utility of a nice straw man. This one is trebuchet-proofed, and haddock-proofed (all sizes).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited October 2018
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    The EU has told May to bolt once more.

    She has made a pigs ear of this again.
    May is in a very weak position and keeps coming up with options. Crap options, to be sure, and ones which are certain to be rejected, but that is only partly the fault of her own weakness, and partly the weakness of those who refuse to just openly attempt to remove her and change direction. OK, it might not work, but every second she continues on in her weak way and offers further solutions, no matter how bad those solutions may be, without them actually doing more than moaning, makes them look as weak as she does.
    DUP could win this for May - they have the correct level of hard headed intransigence that opponents have to respect. The ERG could learn from them. And May.

    However - instead of concrete fisted Arlene she has jelly legged Olly - hence why she is being reamed by the EU.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    The EU has told May to bolt once more.

    She has made a pigs ear of this again.
    May is in a very weak position and keeps coming up with options. Crap options, to be sure, and ones which are certain to be rejected, but that is only partly the fault of her own weakness, and partly the weakness of those who refuse to just openly attempt to remove her and change direction. OK, it might not work, but every second she continues on in her weak way and offers further solutions, no matter how bad those solutions may be, without them actually doing more than moaning, makes them look as weak as she does.
    DUP could win this for May - they have the correct level of hard headed intransigence that opponents have to respect. The ERG could learn from them. And May.

    However - instead of concrete fisted Arlene she has jelly legged Olly - hence why she is being reamed by the EU.
    The DUP I don't doubt will act on what they say - they appear much more willing to do so, for better and for ill. It's the ERG I cannot respect.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Ivan Rodgers gave a speech last night at Cambridge Uni. For those interested the transcript is here.

    https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf

    "Because we needed seriously to work through precisely how a Brexit process could me made to work, before launching it"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,700
    edited October 2018
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    I have. It was a small poppy one wore, understated.

    Now there are massive ones available, ones you can stick on the front of your car etc.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    Me neither.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    edited October 2018

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    I have. It was a small poppy one wore, understated.

    Now there are massive ones available, ones you can stick on the front of your car etc.
    They might be available, but I see very few on cars etc, and I live in a county that houses a significant proportion of the British army.

    Maybe there's been an increase, but when I see talk about how grotesque it has gotten I think I'm living in a different world.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    In world news, the PM of Ethiopia seems like a very interesting chap - ever since he was appointed he seems to have been in a story on the BBC most weeks.

    Ethiopia's prime minister has done press-ups with dozens of protesting soldiers, who had marched into his office in the capital, Addis Ababa.

    Abiy Ahmed was unhappy that soldiers had brought weapons and ordered them to do 10 press-ups.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45822161
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    IanB2 said:

    Ivan Rodgers gave a speech last night at Cambridge Uni. For those interested the transcript is here.

    https://share.trin.cam.ac.uk/sites/public/Comms/Rogers_brexit_as_revolution.pdf

    "Because we needed seriously to work through precisely how a Brexit process could me made to work, before launching it"
    "They were in with a load of opt-outs. Now they are out and want a load of opt-ins"
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited October 2018
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    The EU has told May to bolt once more.

    She has made a pigs ear of this again.
    Depends on your point of view really
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.

    Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.

    Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/

    No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.

    Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.

    Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.

    Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/

    No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.

    Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
    Many of them seem to believe that no Brexit is better than a bad Brexit. And if so, should not moan if they don't get Brexit after all.

    And the chance of that is increasing by the day.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    kle4 said:

    I question the premise that Labour MPs are as opposed to Corbyn as they claim. Actions speak louder than words. Yes they fought hard against him becoming leader, tried to take him down while leader, but only one was willing to confirm they don't want him as PM, and bar the occasional flutter of noise of anti-semitism they usually seem to keep very quiet, and on domestic issues there seems a lot less disagreement.

    So while I don't doubt loads of MPs remain who really don't want him to be Labour leader let alone PM, and that they are opposed to him becoming PM, I don't think they are totally opposed to it, to the point of a threat to call him as PM being the thing that will persuade them.

    True the Conservatives are presenting a government in a complete and perpetual shambles, and dissatisfaction with the government has reached a peak of 72% not seen since the nadir of Brown's administration in 2009 (Ipsos MORI). Yet faced with this open goal, in the most favourable of circumstances Labour under Corbyn is still marginally behind in the polls. Corbyn himself has a likeability rating with the public of just 24% and is still well behind the hapless May in the polling for best PM. Labour face a far bigger hurdle than the Conservatives in terms of vote share needed to secure a working majority. For Corbyn to try to put together a coalition with the Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid and the Greens (let alone the DUP) would be like trying to herd cats. It will be even harder once seriously disaffected Labour backbenchers are factored in, and there are more of them than you think.

    So the prospect of Corbyn as PM is still pretty remote. The talk of Corbyn as future PM is an empty threat put around by the May as a last ditch appeal to her backbenchers, rather than something threatening to become an imminent reality.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. Anorak, that's a wonderful fiction you've created to argue against.

    Voting to leave the EU and run our own affairs yet negotiating to remain in the single market and customs union is an utter contradiction. We gain no benefits, retain the obligations of membership, and lose the advantages of membership. That's insane.

    Nowhere did I mention mass starvation. It's an odd thing for you to invent to argue against/

    No Deal though not only risks an economic crash but the end of the Union and Scotland voting for independence.

    Not one poll has showed voters will accept Brexit if it means No Deal. If hardline Brexiteers will not compromise the likelihood is they will not only destroy the chance of any future FTA with the EU but also leave only EFTA or a second EU referendum before March which could well be won by Remain as the only likely options and by their own intransigence have destroyed the chance of a sustainable clean Brexit or even any Brexit at all
    I am sure that you are right, voters will not like No Deal Brexit. However as that is the default on March 29th, it requires no positive action to happen, merely a lack of agreement on anything else.

    Voters cannot prevent it, unless we get a #peoplesvote.
  • kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    I have. It was a small poppy one wore, understated.

    Now there are massive ones available, ones you can stick on the front of your car etc.
    That's not glorifying anything that's just plain tacky.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the process
  • Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the process
    Why not? They represent our citizens in Northern Ireland they should have first say in what happens to Northern Ireland and thus the backstop.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the process
    While I don’t hold with groups holding the whole of the country to ransome in this case it looks like they are being asked to accept rules over which they will have no say....which does seem a bit rum...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    Well i hope T May tells them to fuck right off. The DUP cannot be allowed to influence the process
    If she doesn't have DUP votes she needs Labour votes (plus more Labour votes to counter her rebels). Which if it is the best option, presumably also means the end of the government as the DUP will on longer provide confidence and supply, and May will have enough rebels to make passing any legislation impossible.

    So might we get Brexit through, and then an immediate GE?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    edited October 2018
    kle4 said:

    In world news, the PM of Ethiopia seems like a very interesting chap - ever since he was appointed he seems to have been in a story on the BBC most weeks.

    Ethiopia's prime minister has done press-ups with dozens of protesting soldiers, who had marched into his office in the capital, Addis Ababa.

    Abiy Ahmed was unhappy that soldiers had brought weapons and ordered them to do 10 press-ups.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45822161

    My hospital has a link with the University hospital in Gondar, Ethiopia. It is not a place that I have been, but several of my colleagues are actively been involved. Ethiopia is looking up. The new prime minister has freed a lot of political prisoners, allowed political exiles to return and ended the war with Eritrea.

    As ever, political progress in Africa is fragile, but Ethiopia seems on a good trajectory.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2018
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    30 years ago we didn't stop for a minutes silence on armistamce day. The only silence was on Rememberance Sunday. I don't remember wall to wall tat plastered in poppies, pop up Poppy shops on the high street, I don't remember a fucking Tornado plane covered in Poppy livery.

    A bomber, covered in the symbol of quiet remeberance? Just, no.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,621
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Doesn't sound like a compromise they can accept, on the basis it is not really a compromise, since one definition of compromise involves both sides making concessions.
    The EU has told May to bolt once more.

    She has made a pigs ear of this again.
    May is in a very weak position and keeps coming up with options. Crap options, to be sure, and ones which are certain to be rejected, but that is only partly the fault of her own weakness, and partly the weakness of those who refuse to just openly attempt to remove her and change direction. OK, it might not work, but every second she continues on in her weak way and offers further solutions, no matter how bad those solutions may be, without them actually doing more than moaning, makes them look as weak as she does.
    DUP could win this for May - they have the correct level of hard headed intransigence that opponents have to respect. The ERG could learn from them. And May.

    However - instead of concrete fisted Arlene she has jelly legged Olly - hence why she is being reamed by the EU.
    The DUP could win a SM/CU for the whole UK for May.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concernre similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    30 years ago we didn't stop for a minutes silence on armistamce day. The only silence was on Rememberance Sunday. I don't remember wall to wall tat plastered in poppies, pop up Poppy shops on the high street, I don't remember a fucking Tornado plane covered in Poppy livery.

    A bomber, covered in the symbol of quiet remeberance? Just, no.
    If that was the case 30 years ago then there have not been that many significant changes in the last 20 to when i was young. A bit more tat is grotesque? A flyby? More silences means glorification? Come on.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Europe Elects
    @europeelects
    37m37 minutes ago

    Germany, Infratest dimap poll:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 26% (-2)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 17% (+2)
    AfD-EFDD: 16% (-2)
    SPD-S&D: 15% (-2)
    LINKE-LEFT: 10%
    FDP-ALDE: 10% (+1)

    Field work: 8/10/18 – 10/10/18
    Sample size: 1,508"
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    The real interesting element of this story is a significant number of EU countries joined forces to defeat Merkel. She only got lower than proposed reduction levels by getting the support of Eastern European countries, because they think they are going to get the EV plants.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    God knows where we’d have been with these idiots in charge in 39.
    It may be news to those of the younger generation used to the sanitised stories of derring-do that the world war 2 history has now become but the generation that actually lived through it took much the same view as these students. I grew up in the 1960s, just about everyone over 30 could remember the war but it was very rarely talked about. Few people attended remembrance services, I cannot recall any such services at school, most people saw the war as a terrible experience best left in the past. They would not have wanted to see today's over-hyped remembrance jamborees.
    Yes, concern about the glorification of war on Remembrance day is nothing new. Remembrance poppies have become prolific in recent years, and are often seen all year round. It seems to have increased as living memory of the first war fades, and also the recent bloody wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    I am happy to wear my red poppy for my grandfather and great uncle who fell in the Gallipolli campaign, and the centenary is undoubtably a major anniversary, but do feel that the best way to remember them is by ensuring no more similar stupidity.
    Seems a very strange notion that taking time to remember those who sacrificed their lives is glorifying war
    Neither strange nor new:

    http://archive.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/rem16.html

    Poppy idolatry has grown from a simple paper symbol worn for a week or so in November into an orgy of virtue signalling.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/poppy-wear-why-not-remembrance-wars-soldiers-veterans-poppies-moeen-ali-a8031746.html
    I always thought of it as a time to mourn for lives needlessly lost and a reminder of the futility of war rather than glorifying it
    That is what it should be. What it has turned into in the last few years is close to grotesque.
    I've notice no big change at all since I was a child.
    30 years ago we didn't stop for a minutes silence on armistamce day. The only silence was on Rememberance Sunday. I don't remember wall to wall tat plastered in poppies, pop up Poppy shops on the high street, I don't remember a fucking Tornado plane covered in Poppy livery.

    A bomber, covered in the symbol of quiet remeberance? Just, no.
    Couldn't agree more; it's all getting a bit out of hand. Keep it simple.
This discussion has been closed.