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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » While the Tories tear themselves apart on Brexit LAB’s new antisemitism policy threatens a divide between the NEC and the party at Westminster
Just at a time when the Tories are totally split on Brexit LAB'S s divide on anti-semitism get widerhttps://t.co/T8UkCnGdWE
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First! Luke 11:170
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Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.0 -
Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/10207728573228933120 -
Sunday Times is reporting this morning that the reason Lib Dem leader Vince Cable missed a crucial vote earlier in the week was because he was attending a meeting about setting up another centre party...
Shouldn’t he finish winding up the Lib Dem’s first ?
Though this is an illustration of why it likely won’t happen - there is no obvious leader.
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Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.0 -
As far as Labour goes, that is an extremely optimistic view of the situation.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it. The Tories deny they have a problem.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
A more accurate reading would be that they realise other people see they have a problem and they are working how best to hide it.
No party serious about tackling racism would have Jenny Formby as its General Secretary or Naz Shah as an Equalities lead, just as no party that was interested in honesty and integrity would have an apologist for the Stasi in charge of its press operation. Yet Labour, unblushingly, have done all those.0 -
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/10207728573228933120 -
Never heard of this polling company, but it does suggest an issue:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/08/labour-antisemitism-opinion-poll
However, the one thing I would say is that while it shows how nasty Labour can be - they really are showing themselves in a hugely unflattering light at the moment - I doubt if it will make a difference to many votes. People tend to vote on domestic issues - especially the NHS and the economy. Labour remains strong on the former, and the Conservatives are struggling to cut through with a message on the latter due to their own, ummm, interesting handling of the Brexit negotiations.
The bigger danger for Corbyn is if a scandal along these lines breaks in an election campaign and sweeps his populist agenda off the news cycle for several days.. Which is why it is so very reckless of him to be upsetting Hodge who was a senior figure in his constituency association for many years. If there is anything new (beyond his support for Eisen) she is likely to know about it.0 -
If Labour are working to hide their antisemitism problem then they are doing a very bad job of it.ydoethur said:
As far as Labour goes, that is an extremely optimistic view of the situation.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it. The Tories deny they have a problem.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
A more accurate reading would be that they realise other people see they have a problem and they are working how best to hide it.
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Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?0 -
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).0 -
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?0 -
Not when the other guy can't produce an agreement in writing that I owe them any money, no.AlastairMeeks said:
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?0 -
Unfortunately, my antipodean chum, this is a debt which could be proven: only the quantum was really up for discussion.archer101au said:
Not when the other guy can't produce an agreement in writing that I owe them any money, no.AlastairMeeks said:
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?0 -
Golf: after studying the Open for the last couple of hours, I admit defeat. Even more than the German grand prix, betting on golf seems like an exercise in forecasting the weather.0
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Lol @ Tory splits on Europe end when we leave the EU !0
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There is, however, something useful to learn from Dominic Raab’s intervention. Evidently he has not yet reached the summit of his ambitions and he is willing to pander to the most crazed elements of Europhobia to advance. From his reception on here this morning, he has judged the impact well. Bet accordingly.0
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F1: big change at Ferrari. Marchionne steps down.
https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/10207228793805004810 -
Mr. Meeks, don't you believe Barnier was right when he said nothing was agreed until everything was agreed?0
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Odd then how Britain`s most well known golf tipsters Jeremy Chapman,Kieth Elliot and Oddscheker have such a good record over the yearsDecrepitJohnL said:Golf: after studying the Open for the last couple of hours, I admit defeat. Even more than the German grand prix, betting on golf seems like an exercise in forecasting the weather.
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Do the EU have no debts to us? Have they quantified and parcelled up joint assets and agreed a price for them?AlastairMeeks said:
Unfortunately, my antipodean chum, this is a debt which could be proven: only the quantum was really up for discussion.archer101au said:
Not when the other guy can't produce an agreement in writing that I owe them any money, no.AlastairMeeks said:
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?
(I don't know the answer, which is why I'm asking the question.)0 -
Don`t Anti-Semites hide behind Anti-Israeli rhetoric?DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).
Since the Milliband leadership contest hundreds of thousands of new members have joined Labour many of them attracted by Corbyn support for causes like Hamas0 -
Well, yes. But then if they wanted to produce a fully costed manifesto or keep us in the EU they did a pretty poor job of that as well.rkrkrk said:
If Labour are working to hide their antisemitism problem then they are doing a very bad job of it.ydoethur said:
As far as Labour goes, that is an extremely optimistic view of the situation.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it. The Tories deny they have a problem.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
A more accurate reading would be that they realise other people see they have a problem and they are working how best to hide it.
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We may have to consider the possibility that they are simply rather incompetent.0 -
Welcome to PB, Mr. Str.0
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Perhaps he is St. R?Morris_Dancer said:Welcome to PB, Mr. Str.
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F1: Ladbrokes now has no safety car at 2.3, so if you backed one to appear at 2.3 but didn't go for the 2.2 (Betfair) on one not appearing, you can get your free money at one bookie, it seems.0
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I'm perusing the F1 markets, as some more have gone up, and can't work out why Raikkonen is 7 to lead lap 1 and Bottas is 8.5. The Mercedes chap starts 2nd. That could be value (still browsing, though).
Edited extra bit: a sound point, Mr. D.0 -
He couldn't have been meeting with Centrist MPs, as they were busy voting. It is not a credible excuse. Time for Cable to be pensioned off.Nigelb said:Sunday Times is reporting this morning that the reason Lib Dem leader Vince Cable missed a crucial vote earlier in the week was because he was attending a meeting about setting up another centre party...
Shouldn’t he finish winding up the Lib Dem’s first ?
Though this is an illustration of why it likely won’t happen - there is no obvious leader.0 -
Blairites have been making that link too:str said:
Don`t Anti-Semites hide behind Anti-Israeli rhetoric?DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).
Since the Milliband leadership contest hundreds of thousands of new members have joined Labour many of them attracted by Corbyn support for causes like Hamas
http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2018/07/13/labour-and-anti-semitism-enough-really-is-enough/#comment-792229
Although I would add it's difficult to know why so many have joined Labour. Some may have been hoodwinked by Corbyn's Utopianism, or been angered by austerity, or just wanted to meet members of the opposite sex. It may even be a combination of reasons.
However given Corbyn's unfortunate track record of common cause with Holocaust deniers and promotion of overt anti-Semites to key positions racism is sadly not something we can rule out.0 -
Known that for quite a while, Mr. Dancer. Via the Good Lady Wife's contacts from making the documentary.....Morris_Dancer said:F1: big change at Ferrari. Marchionne steps down.
https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/10207228793805004810 -
He has been a disappointing leader. At least with Farron there was a sense of purpose and direction. Thatcher said of Gummer that she appointed him as nightwatchman but he went to sleep on the job. Perhaps that will be Cable's epitaph also.Foxy said:
He couldn't have been meeting with Centrist MPs, as they were busy voting. It is not a credible excuse. Time for Cable to be pensioned off.Nigelb said:Sunday Times is reporting this morning that the reason Lib Dem leader Vince Cable missed a crucial vote earlier in the week was because he was attending a meeting about setting up another centre party...
Shouldn’t he finish winding up the Lib Dem’s first ?
Though this is an illustration of why it likely won’t happen - there is no obvious leader.0 -
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
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Unfortunately the left is drawn irresistibly to endless, pedantic, pointless rows, particularly where Israel/Palestine is concerned. I agree with your last paragraph, that would be the smart thing to do politically.DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).0 -
All bluff and buster. Everyone knows we will pay. And are likely obliged to pay much of it, anyhow. In even a walk away scenario we cannot afford to have bad relations with a club containing almost all of our powerful neighbours and trading partners.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....0 -
+1Foxy said:
He couldn't have been meeting with Centrist MPs, as they were busy voting. It is not a credible excuse. Time for Cable to be pensioned off.Nigelb said:Sunday Times is reporting this morning that the reason Lib Dem leader Vince Cable missed a crucial vote earlier in the week was because he was attending a meeting about setting up another centre party...
Shouldn’t he finish winding up the Lib Dem’s first ?
Though this is an illustration of why it likely won’t happen - there is no obvious leader.
Cable has been ineffective; he clearly feels entitled to the job by dint of his experience and doesn't need to make any effort. And if the Times is right he now has a bad case of Ashdown disease.0 -
Mr. Mark, there has been some murmuring ahead of time in the last few days, but it's only recently been confirmed.
Some reckon it'll mean Raikkonen stays at the team.0 -
Try getting even a minimal deal on keeping planes flying in circumstances where the UK walks away from commitments it has made. All this ridiculous posturing does is make the subsequent climbdown look even more pathetic.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
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Cable, through his ineffective leadership is a prime cause of the continued high level of support in the polls for Corbyns labour party.IanB2 said:
All bluff and buster. Everyone knows we will pay. And are likely obliged to pay much of it, anyhow. In even a walk away scenario we cannot afford to have bad relations with a club containing almost all of our powerful neighbours and trading partners.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....0 -
Yes, people who simply hate Jews do hide behind anti-Israeli rhetoric but this does not seem to be the case here. Your own reference to "causes like Hamas" suggests as much. Labour should simply adopt the whole IHRA definition and tell fringe groups to express themselves more carefully or not at all. It is not Labour's job to bring peace to the Middle East, and if it is then there are more serious wars there right now to worry about.str said:
Don`t Anti-Semites hide behind Anti-Israeli rhetoric?DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).
Since the Milliband leadership contest hundreds of thousands of new members have joined Labour many of them attracted by Corbyn support for causes like Hamas0 -
The hard left has been caught in its own trap here. By broadening 'race' to include almost any difference possible, they can only defend their definitions by bringing in the concept of power.
If you're 'powerful' you cannot be a victim of racism, and that's why its so subjective. A white person can never be a victim, nor can a Jew. Hamas are always a victim. A rich white person gats double points, and a poor white person gets single points as an oppressor. It has the advantage of being simple, verging on child-like, but it is straightforward and you can see the attraction.
PS But I have to agree with Mr Dancer. This also seems a little arcane, angels dancing on a pinhead, when it comes down to tighter and tighter definitions, so it won't change a lot of votes. But the people directly affected may be pissed off.0 -
A lot of Labour’s support is anti-Tory, just as a lot of the Tory support is anti-Labour. It’s hard to see any LibDem revival nationally under any leader while England and much of Wales remains so polarised.philiph said:
Cable, through his ineffective leadership is a prime cause of the continued high level of support in the polls for Corbyns labour party.IanB2 said:
All bluff and buster. Everyone knows we will pay. And are likely obliged to pay much of it, anyhow. In even a walk away scenario we cannot afford to have bad relations with a club containing almost all of our powerful neighbours and trading partners.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
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You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....0 -
After-timing alert: I backed Tiger before the start and could green-up now (ie lay back to take a profit) so I am not saying golf is an intractable problem, merely that today's weather is uncertain. This particular Open does seem to have been more weather-affected than most golf tournaments. The thing about golf is that competitors play hours apart so if it rains for half a day, or if the wind picks up significantly, then the result is strongly influenced by which golfers are out at the time.str said:
Odd then how Britain`s most well known golf tipsters Jeremy Chapman,Kieth Elliot and Oddscheker have such a good record over the yearsDecrepitJohnL said:Golf: after studying the Open for the last couple of hours, I admit defeat. Even more than the German grand prix, betting on golf seems like an exercise in forecasting the weather.
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Pardon?!! I've missed that! Who's the unlucky woman?IanB2 said:
+1Foxy said:
He couldn't have been meeting with Centrist MPs, as they were busy voting. It is not a credible excuse. Time for Cable to be pensioned off.Nigelb said:Sunday Times is reporting this morning that the reason Lib Dem leader Vince Cable missed a crucial vote earlier in the week was because he was attending a meeting about setting up another centre party...
Shouldn’t he finish winding up the Lib Dem’s first ?
Though this is an illustration of why it likely won’t happen - there is no obvious leader.
Cable has been ineffective; he clearly feels entitled to the job by dint of his experience and doesn't need to make any effort. And if the Times is right he now has a bad case of Ashdown disease.0 -
Yes, even "No Deal" Brexit requires a minimal deal.SouthamObserver said:
Try getting even a minimal deal on keeping planes flying in circumstances where the UK walks away from commitments it has made. All this ridiculous posturing does is make the subsequent climbdown look even more pathetic.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
So we are no further on than last December, and busy tearing up what was agreed back then. Who (EU or otherwise) would trust such a government with trade negotiations?0 -
Or that he is largely peripheral.FF43 said:
You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
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The first part is profoundly true, especially given Blair's shall we say counterproductive efforts in that regard from 2001 to 2005.DecrepitJohnL said:It is not Labour's job to bring peace to the Middle East, and if it is then there are more serious wars there right now to worry about.
I'm intrigued by the second part though. Which war, from the point of view of British interests, is more serious or more directly affects us?0 -
A good explanation, but the NEC are not necessarily wrong to take the stance that they have made. If the Labour party was actually antisemitic, it wouldn't be discussing a code of practice on combating antisemitism.DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).
The OTT public attack on the main opposition party by those sympathetic to Zionism, at a time when the government is falling apart and is ripe for the taking, is not likely to help the future position of Jews in the UK. It is better for minority groups to keep out of the news.
Israel itself isn't helping prospects for its long-term survival. In recent days, it has not been far from the controversial headlines: the recent vote in the Knesset on the nature of the Zionist state, more OTT bombing of Gaza, and today the rescue of the extremist Jihadist so-called White Helmets from Southern Syria. I fear that in future, there will be a 3rd reason for surviving Jews to commemorate today's date in their calendar.0 -
Yes, it does not look like a serious negotiating stance but is that all it shows, or does it mean Raab after just days in the job has already given up on the prime minister and is on manoeuvres for an imminent leadership election?FF43 said:
You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....0 -
F1: some betting thoughts.
Bottas being 8.5 (9 with boost) to lead lap 1 seems oddly good value. He's only 2nd and Vettel's had iffy starts recently.
There's a special at 6 (half a point more with boost) on Raikkonen podium, Alonso points, and Hartley to be classified. The last one is 50/50, Alonso has a 70% record of achieving points (and starts 11th, although Hamilton and Ricciardo will likely be coming through) so it's a credible outcome.
There's a winner without Vettel market. Ricciardo is 29 (34 with boost). And there's an each way option. Looks a bit long.
But the most interesting thing I saw was Vandoorne at 7.5 (8 with boost) to win group 4, the other chaps being Gasly, Hartley and Stroll. Vandoorne qualified horribly, as is his recent pattern, but he has a good record of climbing through the ranks during a race. Also, the other three chaps are immediately ahead of him, and McLaren has performed more strongly than the other teams, generally, through the season. I think those odds are plain wrong.
Also, there's a seemingly low risk of thunderstorms. Given the accuracy of recent weather forecasts, you should bear in mind the risk of tsunami, hurricane, earthquake, and the arrival of Mehrunes Dagon.
Anyway, I reckon a pound or two on Vandoorne makes sense.0 -
DD left because No10 were negotiating over his head, and cutting him out of negotiations. Lets see if Raab gets the same.SouthamObserver said:
Or that he is largely peripheral.FF43 said:
You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
One of the many ways May cocked things up was to create DExEU in the first place. It was impossible to staff, required a press gang going into other depts to get bums on seats at all, and very high turnover as the new staff spent most of their time figuring out their own exit strategies. Then it was cut out of the loop anyway. Better to just have had the FCO do it in the first place.0 -
But that meant Boris heading Brexit....Foxy said:
DD left because No10 were negotiating over his head, and cutting him out of negotiations. Lets see if Raab gets the same.SouthamObserver said:
Or that he is largely peripheral.FF43 said:
You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
One of the many ways May cocked things up was to create DExEU in the first place. It was impossible to staff, required a press gang going into other depts to get bums on seats at all, and very high turnover as the new staff spent most of their time figuring out their own exit strategies. Then it was cut out of the loop anyway. Better to just have had the FCO do it in the first place.0 -
On topic - as I understand it, the NEC has yet to actually vote on the issue. Last week’s change happened without one. The MPs vote would force it to do so as it would represent a change in Parliamentary standing orders and these have to be approved (or not) by the NEC. Thus, all NEC members would be putting their cards on the table. The context for this is that NEC elections are taking place beyween 26th July and 30th August.0
-
Appointing a competent Foreign Sec would have been useful too!MarqueeMark said:
But that meant Boris heading Brexit....Foxy said:
DD left because No10 were negotiating over his head, and cutting him out of negotiations. Lets see if Raab gets the same.SouthamObserver said:
Or that he is largely peripheral.FF43 said:
You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
One of the many ways May cocked things up was to create DExEU in the first place. It was impossible to staff, required a press gang going into other depts to get bums on seats at all, and very high turnover as the new staff spent most of their time figuring out their own exit strategies. Then it was cut out of the loop anyway. Better to just have had the FCO do it in the first place.0 -
Varadkar threatened to shut down Irish airspace last week..SouthamObserver said:
Try getting even a minimal deal on keeping planes flying in circumstances where the UK walks away from commitments it has made. All this ridiculous posturing does is make the subsequent climbdown look even more pathetic.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....0 -
Yep. Her cunning plan was to show Boris up (and keep him busy and distant) in a senior office, whilst taking the important stuff that actually needed doing away into a new department.MarqueeMark said:
But that meant Boris heading Brexit....Foxy said:
DD left because No10 were negotiating over his head, and cutting him out of negotiations. Lets see if Raab gets the same.SouthamObserver said:
Or that he is largely peripheral.FF43 said:
You're right. Precisely to avoid the situation where members think they can walk away without paying their dues, the EU will never agree conditionality on our payments. All this shows is that The DExEU minister isn't serious about negotiating with the EU.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
One of the many ways May cocked things up was to create DExEU in the first place. It was impossible to staff, required a press gang going into other depts to get bums on seats at all, and very high turnover as the new staff spent most of their time figuring out their own exit strategies. Then it was cut out of the loop anyway. Better to just have had the FCO do it in the first place.
0 -
No, he didn’t. He said that if there was no deal there would be no flights. It was just a statement of fact.Pulpstar said:
Varadkar threatened to shut down Irish airspace last week..SouthamObserver said:
Try getting even a minimal deal on keeping planes flying in circumstances where the UK walks away from commitments it has made. All this ridiculous posturing does is make the subsequent climbdown look even more pathetic.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
http://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-taoiseach-british-planes-irish-skies-4137889-Jul2018/
0 -
Yes. We're getting €7bn for our share of thy EIB.ydoethur said:
Do the EU have no debts to us? Have they quantified and parcelled up joint assets and agreed a price for them?AlastairMeeks said:
Unfortunately, my antipodean chum, this is a debt which could be proven: only the quantum was really up for discussion.archer101au said:
Not when the other guy can't produce an agreement in writing that I owe them any money, no.AlastairMeeks said:
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?
(I don't know the answer, which is why I'm asking the question.)0 -
One to file away for the annual non sequitur award?philiph said:
Cable, through his ineffective leadership is a prime cause of the continued high level of support in the polls for Corbyns labour party.IanB2 said:
All bluff and buster. Everyone knows we will pay. And are likely obliged to pay much of it, anyhow. In even a walk away scenario we cannot afford to have bad relations with a club containing almost all of our powerful neighbours and trading partners.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....
0 -
Yes. Our share of the EU's net liabilities is about £20 bn.ydoethur said:
Do the EU have no debts to us? Have they quantified and parcelled up joint assets and agreed a price for them?AlastairMeeks said:
Unfortunately, my antipodean chum, this is a debt which could be proven: only the quantum was really up for discussion.archer101au said:
Not when the other guy can't produce an agreement in writing that I owe them any money, no.AlastairMeeks said:
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?
(I don't know the answer, which is why I'm asking the question.)0 -
Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.0 -
A negotiated withdrawal is not a No Deal withdrawal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
There’ll be no negotiation if the UK refuses to pay the money it has agreed it owes.
0 -
O/T, I'm reading The Court of the Red Tsar, which is riveting. Mass murderers can be very childish. Stalin and his court devoted a lot of energy to playing stupid practical jokes on each other.0
-
Mr. Observer, different people seem to use no deal to refer to either no end deal, or withdrawal/transition deal.
Anyway, if such can be negotiated, and it's a sign of just how well things are going that this is even a question, then that's all fine.0 -
I think this is right. The dividing line between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism isn't clear cut. The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance doesn't necessarily have the final word, nor are Labour Party guidelines necessarily less useful in making the distinction. But people will mistrust your motives if you say you will adopt a standard and then set out to change them. Trust that is in short supply anyway between Corbyn and his MPs.DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).
What this shows, I think, is less anti-Semitism on the part of Corbyn than his tendency to self indulgence and a lack of discipline. For a politician with ambitions to be prime minister this is probably fatal.0 -
I dread to think what this Raab guy's statement is doing to our international reputation.SouthamObserver said:
A negotiated withdrawal is not a No Deal withdrawal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
There’ll be no negotiation if the UK refuses to pay the money it has agreed it owes.0 -
Although I don't think it's in that book, my favourite is the one where Stalin forced the fat, lazy Khrushchev to dance a hornpipe.Sean_F said:O/T, I'm reading The Court of the Red Tsar, which is riveting. Mass murderers can be very childish. Stalin and his court devoted a lot of energy to playing stupid practical jokes on each other.
Although given some of the later things Khrushchev did - the shoe at the UN springs to mind - it was probably the most dignified moment of his political career.
Thank you to @rcs1000 and @Sean_F for the replies. Have a good morning.0 -
Varadakar clearly differentiates between a transition deal and a No Deal. All he did was make a statement of fact. If there is no deal there will be no flights. Clearly, this is one reason why there is likely to be some kind of minimal deal at the very least. And it will involve the UK paying the money it has agreed it owes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, different people seem to use no deal to refer to either no end deal, or withdrawal/transition deal.
Anyway, if such can be negotiated, and it's a sign of just how well things are going that this is even a question, then that's all fine.
0 -
Like almost every politician in the UK Rasb views Brexit in very narrow, domestic terms. His primary interest is in internal Tory dynamics, which is why he made this entirely pointless threat. As you say, though, the world is also watching and listening.Recidivist said:
I dread to think what this Raab guy's statement is doing to our international reputation.SouthamObserver said:
A negotiated withdrawal is not a No Deal withdrawal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
There’ll be no negotiation if the UK refuses to pay the money it has agreed it owes.
0 -
Hmmm - the not so veiled threat in your post is hardly likely to reassure the Jewish community.daodao said:
A good explanation, but the NEC are not necessarily wrong to take the stance that they have made. If the Labour party was actually antisemitic, it wouldn't be discussing a code of practice on combating antisemitism.DecrepitJohnL said:
In the short term *this* is the antisemitism problem Labour has: an entirely pointless public row over part of the IHRA definition. It repels voters, splits the party and provides ammunition to opponents. In the longer term, and the root cause of the issue, Labour's problem with antisemitism is not that it has people who hate Jews -- the last leader was Jewish and when he was elected, pretty much 100 per cent of members' votes went to Jewish candidates, since he beat his brother. What Labour does have, however, is members who though not anti-Jewish are anti-Israel. Labour has chosen -- wrongly, and incredibly -- to indulge the latter by omitting a couple of the IHRA examples.rkrkrk said:
Alternatively the Labour leadership have admitted they have a problem and are working out what to do about it, perhaps not particularly competently.Sandpit said:Second!
Better to be the party divided about policy than the party divided about racism.
The Tories deny they have a problem.
Maybe Labour is right and its amended version of the IHRA definition is better than the original -- but who cares? It is politically asinine. Adopt the whole IHRA version and let those who want to criticise Israel find better ways of doing so (or just tell them to shut the f up).
The OTT public attack on the main opposition party by those sympathetic to Zionism, at a time when the government is falling apart and is ripe for the taking, is not likely to help the future position of Jews in the UK. It is better for minority groups to keep out of the news.
Israel itself isn't helping prospects for its long-term survival. In recent days, it has not been far from the controversial headlines: the recent vote in the Knesset on the nature of the Zionist state, more OTT bombing of Gaza, and today the rescue of the extremist Jihadist so-called White Helmets from Southern Syria. I fear that in future, there will be a 3rd reason for surviving Jews to commemorate today's date in their calendar.0 -
There is no shortage of idiocy on either side of the negotiation.Pulpstar said:
Varadkar threatened to shut down Irish airspace last week..SouthamObserver said:
Try getting even a minimal deal on keeping planes flying in circumstances where the UK walks away from commitments it has made. All this ridiculous posturing does is make the subsequent climbdown look even more pathetic.MarqueeMark said:
Except this summer, the EU knows exactly how much money it is pissing up a wall if we walk with no deal.FF43 said:
It will be the Row of the Summer again. Another summer, another DexEu minister, same row.Sandpit said:Good to see Dominic Raab getting his feet under the table at DExEU, reminding everyone that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1020772857322893312
It also sets the dangerous precedet that members can walk away paying nothing to Brussels. You'd think they might want to avoid that....0 -
Well, after the confident predictions of war, pestilence and The Great Starvation last week as the inevitable and pretty much instant effect of Brexit I thought that I would explore possible places of refuge. I have come to Northern Italy because, as my son says, if you are going to go anywhere in search of food it might as well be here. First impressions are positive. There are some serious hills to make a Scot feel at home and the meal last night was basic but superb.
Off to the shops shortly to see how far my Sterling can still go despite the inevitable despondency. Further reports to follow but please, DYOR.0 -
Stalin enjoyed forcing the Politburo to gorge themselves to bursting point and to get blind drunk, before pelting them with food.ydoethur said:
Although I don't think it's in that book, my favourite is the one where Stalin forced the fat, lazy Khrushchev to dance a hornpipe.Sean_F said:O/T, I'm reading The Court of the Red Tsar, which is riveting. Mass murderers can be very childish. Stalin and his court devoted a lot of energy to playing stupid practical jokes on each other.
Although given some of the later things Khrushchev did - the shoe at the UN springs to mind - it was probably the most dignified moment of his political career.
Thank you to @rcs1000 and @Sean_F for the replies. Have a good morning.
He also murdered his pet parrot, after getting annoyed at the way it imitated his habit of hawking and spitting.0 -
You have to feel a bit sympathetic to Varadkar. We impose our Brexit on the Irish. They get no say but suffer the fallout, which is entirely hostile. Then we put down their prime minister with extreme condescension for speaking out of turn.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
Nevertheless it probably doesn't do him any harm politically.0 -
Unfortunately, my EU chum, a QC has analysed the treaties and determined that you are wrong. Would you like to refer to the part of the treaty that says that we owe them any money? The article number will be fine.AlastairMeeks said:
Unfortunately, my antipodean chum, this is a debt which could be proven: only the quantum was really up for discussion.archer101au said:
Not when the other guy can't produce an agreement in writing that I owe them any money, no.AlastairMeeks said:
Do you normally not settle your debts?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Sadly, I must agree this won't shift many votes, and isn't getting a huge amount of media coverage.
Mr. 43, the alternative to what Raab is saying would be nuts. Imagine we got no deal at all, including transition. Why, then, would it make any sense to throw £39bn at the EU?
http://lawyersforbritain.org/we-dont-owe-the-eu-any-money#more-173
0 -
This may be a naïve question, but what have flights to do with a free-trading organisation? Joining a European flight arrangement should be a separate issue totally. As was Euratom.
Yes, I know that the EEC changed into the EU, but doesn't this emphasise that the like Topsy, it just growed and growed. Surely these were add-ons? Why incorporate them into the very body of the organisation. It's almost as if it were a cunning plan to prevent an easy departure.
Ah, I think I've answered my own question.
It's like joining a gym, deciding to leave, and then discovering that they also are involved in setting and collecting your gas and electricity bills and they will cut you off if you do leave.0 -
No say? Aren't they on the EU's side during the negotiations?FF43 said:
You have to feel a bit sympathetic to Varadkar. We impose our Brexit on the Irish. They get no say but suffer the fallout, which is entirely hostile. Then we put down their prime minister with extreme condescension for speaking out of turn.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
Nevertheless it probably doesn't do him any harm politically.0 -
If you are genuinely interested, it’s all in this thread:CD13 said:This may be a naïve question, but what have flights to do with a free-trading organisation? Joining a European flight arrangement should be a separate issue totally. As was Euratom.
Yes, I know that the EEC changed into the EU, but doesn't this emphasise that the like Topsy, it just growed and growed. Surely these were add-ons? Why incorporate them into the very body of the organisation. It's almost as if it were a cunning plan to prevent an easy departure.
Ah, I think I've answered my own question.
https://twitter.com/brianmlucey/status/1020603084806840320?s=21
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The Irish didn't vote in the referendum. Brexit is all downside for them. As it is for us, but at least we voted to damage our own country.RobD said:
No say? Aren't they on the EU's side during the negotiations?FF43 said:
You have to feel a bit sympathetic to Varadkar. We impose our Brexit on the Irish. They get no say but suffer the fallout, which is entirely hostile. Then we put down their prime minister with extreme condescension for speaking out of turn.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, he said that if the UK had control of its own waters, we couldn't use the Irish skies.
https://twitter.com/michael_hal/status/1020416933815046145
It's just dumb. There's no reason not to have a negotiated withdrawal even if there's WTO terms at the end of it. How many Irish air routes cross UK airspace? Or other EU nations likewise?
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
Nevertheless it probably doesn't do him any harm politically.0 -
Khruschev is an intriguing figure, and my enjoyment of "The Death of Stalin" inspired me to get Taubmans biography. He certainly had clownish elements, but also was a fairly active participant in the Red Terror. He did change the USSR for the better though, and apart from executing Beria as a British spy, established the principle that deposed politicians would be quietly retired to sinecures rather than executed after show trials.ydoethur said:
Although I don't think it's in that book, my favourite is the one where Stalin forced the fat, lazy Khrushchev to dance a hornpipe.Sean_F said:O/T, I'm reading The Court of the Red Tsar, which is riveting. Mass murderers can be very childish. Stalin and his court devoted a lot of energy to playing stupid practical jokes on each other.
Although given some of the later things Khrushchev did - the shoe at the UN springs to mind - it was probably the most dignified moment of his political career.
Thank you to @rcs1000 and @Sean_F for the replies. Have a good morning.
Last Sunday I queued up to see Lenin in his mausoleum in Red Square, and the Kremlin wall graves, which was quite an interesting yet disturbing glimpse back into history. Stalin's grave had fresh flowers on it. At noon there was a procession of elderly pensioners, several wearing Soviet Era medals, behind an elderly lady, who carried a picture of Stalin like an icon in a religious parade. The crowd parted respectfully for the old Communists.
On the other hand the Finland Station in St Petersburg, has a statue of Lenin addressing the crowds, but the Soviet era station is now substantially a Burger King, giving a rather dischordant image. The New Tetrakyov gallery in Moscow has an interesting sculpture park of Soviet statues juxtaposed with a modern installation commemorating the unknown victims of the Totalitarian regime.
Russia seems to be struggling with some of the harsher aspects of its history, but then many countries do, not least Britain.
0 -
Mr Observer,
Despite attending EU meetings, I stuck to my own speciality. My woeful ignorance is genuine, and the more I discover, the more I think I did the right thing by voting Leave. Co-operation on the science side is a good thing, but becoming enmeshed in a political union is completely different. I accept that others think differently.
0 -
Not this shit again. No, it doesn't.Morris_Dancer said:
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
The UK QRA operational area specifically excludes the air space of the RoI.
This is what I wrote the last time somebody trotted out this blatant untruth:
British forces do not provide "QRA" for the Republic of Ireland as a) UK QRA is controlled by NATO (specifically ACCS) of which RoI are not members and b) The Irish constitution specifically prohibits that sort of foreign military activity on Irish territory. That's not to say that some sort of extraordinary help could not be theoretically requested in a highly improbably 911-on-the-Liffey scenario.
On all of my carrier deployments we were specifically forbidden from flying within 10km of Irish airspace. Such was the sensitivity to UK mil traffic...0 -
But Varadkar et al are trying to blackmail the UK into giving them everything they want as part of the transition deal with no long-term guarantees for us in return. So we get a time limited transition and they get the fallback for Northern Ireland in perpetuity.SouthamObserver said:
Varadakar clearly differentiates between a transition deal and a No Deal. All he did was make a statement of fact. If there is no deal there will be no flights. Clearly, this is one reason why there is likely to be some kind of minimal deal at the very least. And it will involve the UK paying the money it has agreed it owes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, different people seem to use no deal to refer to either no end deal, or withdrawal/transition deal.
Anyway, if such can be negotiated, and it's a sign of just how well things are going that this is even a question, then that's all fine.
While we should settle our debts so long as we get at least a minimal deal all deals should be reciprocal. If we only have a time-limited transition then their fallback should be time limited and any payments we make to them should be time-limited.
There's no reason we should go into the 2020 negotiations facing the same cliff edge but having already given away everything they want.0 -
Have wormholes been invented? Warp drives?Dura_Ace said:
Not this shit again. No, it doesn't.Morris_Dancer said:
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
The UK QRA operational area specifically excludes the air space of the RoI.
This is what I wrote the last time somebody trotted out this blatant untruth:
On all of my carrier deployments we were specifically forbidden from flying within 10km of Irish airspace. Such was the sensitivity to UK mil traffic...
If we're guaranteeing the security of a 10km circumference around Ireland then we are de facto guaranteeing the security of Ireland. Unless you've got some magical way hostile agents can get to Ireland.0 -
Yes, it is an interesting Twitter thread. If we were serious about WTO Brexit then we should have had DExEU working on our own air licensing for the last couple of years, so that would be up and running in March, but we pissed away that opportunity and time on Cakeism.SouthamObserver said:
If you are genuinely interested, it’s all in this thread:CD13 said:This may be a naïve question, but what have flights to do with a free-trading organisation? Joining a European flight arrangement should be a separate issue totally. As was Euratom.
Yes, I know that the EEC changed into the EU, but doesn't this emphasise that the like Topsy, it just growed and growed. Surely these were add-ons? Why incorporate them into the very body of the organisation. It's almost as if it were a cunning plan to prevent an easy departure.
Ah, I think I've answered my own question.
https://twitter.com/brianmlucey/status/1020603084806840320?s=210 -
The UK didn't agree it owed the money legally. It agreed, for the purposes of a negotiation, that they would agree an amount to settle a debt which the EU believed it was owed as part of an overall agreement that included finalising the ongoing trade relationship. The paper in December is not an agreement or a treaty nor even a commitment and it specifically says that it is not. It was a 'progress report' on what had been agreed subject to everything else being agreed. It says so quite clearly "It is also agreed by the UK on the condition of an overall agreement under Article 50 on the UK's withdrawal, taking into account the framework for the future relationship...".SouthamObserver said:
A negotiated withdrawal is not a No Deal withdrawal.
There’ll be no negotiation if the UK refuses to pay the money it has agreed it owes.
Since the EU have been unable to deliver a trade agreement to our satisfaction, the rest of the agreement will fall away.
What you are missing is that there is basically nothing in the Withdrawal Agreement that the UK wants, other than the agreement on citizens rights which we both know neither side will break even if it is never signed. So there is no reason for the UK to sign a withdrawal agreement at all if we go to WTO.0 -
Actually the poll shows the Tories would tie Labour under Boris.
What the anti semitism row and the Cable meeting confirms is the continued divide between Corbyn and his supporters and Momentum and the centrist pro EEA parts of the Labour Parliamentary Party. The general election result bolstered Corbyn's position but the divide has not gone away0 -
Indeed this is the sort of stuff we need to be negotiating in the next 9 months along with setting up customs facilities on the NI border and in Dover if the EU won't come to the table as an honest broker.Foxy said:
Yes, it is an interesting Twitter thread. If we were serious about WTO Brexit then we should have had DExEU working on our own air licensing for the last couple of years, so that would be up and running in March, but we pissed away that opportunity and time on Cakeism.SouthamObserver said:
If you are genuinely interested, it’s all in this thread:CD13 said:This may be a naïve question, but what have flights to do with a free-trading organisation? Joining a European flight arrangement should be a separate issue totally. As was Euratom.
Yes, I know that the EEC changed into the EU, but doesn't this emphasise that the like Topsy, it just growed and growed. Surely these were add-ons? Why incorporate them into the very body of the organisation. It's almost as if it were a cunning plan to prevent an easy departure.
Ah, I think I've answered my own question.
https://twitter.com/brianmlucey/status/1020603084806840320?s=210 -
Interesting other article linked in your reference about the effect of No Deal on different sectors: https://medium.com/@alanbell_libsol/notices-to-stakeholders-865e68bcbe33SouthamObserver said:
If you are genuinely interested, it’s all in this thread:
https://twitter.com/brianmlucey/status/1020603084806840320?s=21
If you are operating in the UK and want to get serious about No Deal contingency planning you will be moving your operations to the continent. Which is undoubtedly why the government hasn't been energetic in promoting No Deal planning0 -
What Raab is pointing out is the same point you missed over Chequers. A withdrawal agreement where we pay 40bn and do not get a trade agreement as well will not pass the Commons.SouthamObserver said:
Varadakar clearly differentiates between a transition deal and a No Deal. All he did was make a statement of fact. If there is no deal there will be no flights. Clearly, this is one reason why there is likely to be some kind of minimal deal at the very least. And it will involve the UK paying the money it has agreed it owes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, different people seem to use no deal to refer to either no end deal, or withdrawal/transition deal.
Anyway, if such can be negotiated, and it's a sign of just how well things are going that this is even a question, then that's all fine.
If there is no deal, the UK Government will say that they are going to reserve their position on a financial settlement until such time as an FTA is agreed with the EU. The second after we leave with No Deal, the EU's negotiating strength drops to zero.0 -
The RAF don't provide a ring of a brylcreem at a remove of 10km all around Ireland. The UK QRA area only goes out to about 10W in the north, follows the 28/6 counties border and down (approximately) the middle of the Irish sea. There is no QRA cover to the south or west of Ireland.Philip_Thompson said:
Have wormholes been invented? Warp drives?Dura_Ace said:
Not this shit again. No, it doesn't.Morris_Dancer said:
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
The UK QRA operational area specifically excludes the air space of the RoI.
This is what I wrote the last time somebody trotted out this blatant untruth:
On all of my carrier deployments we were specifically forbidden from flying within 10km of Irish airspace. Such was the sensitivity to UK mil traffic...
If we're guaranteeing the security of a 10km circumference around Ireland then we are de facto guaranteeing the security of Ireland. Unless you've got some magical way hostile agents can get to Ireland.0 -
0
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I thought the Headbangers wanted independence i.e. WTO. So why should the EU help you ?Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed this is the sort of stuff we need to be negotiating in the next 9 months along with setting up customs facilities on the NI border and in Dover if the EU won't come to the table as an honest broker.Foxy said:
Yes, it is an interesting Twitter thread. If we were serious about WTO Brexit then we should have had DExEU working on our own air licensing for the last couple of years, so that would be up and running in March, but we pissed away that opportunity and time on Cakeism.SouthamObserver said:
If you are genuinely interested, it’s all in this thread:CD13 said:This may be a naïve question, but what have flights to do with a free-trading organisation? Joining a European flight arrangement should be a separate issue totally. As was Euratom.
Yes, I know that the EEC changed into the EU, but doesn't this emphasise that the like Topsy, it just growed and growed. Surely these were add-ons? Why incorporate them into the very body of the organisation. It's almost as if it were a cunning plan to prevent an easy departure.
Ah, I think I've answered my own question.
https://twitter.com/brianmlucey/status/1020603084806840320?s=21
Always remember, it is a TORY BREXIT. They made the bed, they should lie on it.0 -
Since exactly what time did you leave May and became Johnson's mouthpiece ?HYUFD said:Actually the poll shows the Tories would tie Labour under Boris.
What the anti semitism row and the Cable meeting confirms is the continued divide between Corbyn and his supporters and Momentum and the centrist pro EEA parts of the Labour Parliamentary Party. The general election result bolstered Corbyn's position but the divide has not gone away0 -
Since the poll has Boris ahead of JRM and then a tie between Gove, Javid and Hunt, what it probably shows is name recognition, or who has been on telly the most. We should not dismiss this out of hand, since recognition and media attention are important assets -- ask Lib Dems now despairing of Vince Cable's near-invisibility if they'd welcome a modern-day "chat show Charlie" -- but whoever replaces Theresa May as prime minister will, ex officio, gain a higher profile. But MPs previously voted for John Major and IDS over better known and more charismatic rivals so there is no guarantee they will take it into account this time.HYUFD said:Actually the poll shows the Tories would tie Labour under Boris.
0 -
Because airspace etc is covered by bodies other than the WTO.surby said:
I thought the Headbangers wanted independence i.e. WTO. So why should the EU help you ?Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed this is the sort of stuff we need to be negotiating in the next 9 months along with setting up customs facilities on the NI border and in Dover if the EU won't come to the table as an honest broker.Foxy said:
Yes, it is an interesting Twitter thread. If we were serious about WTO Brexit then we should have had DExEU working on our own air licensing for the last couple of years, so that would be up and running in March, but we pissed away that opportunity and time on Cakeism.SouthamObserver said:
If you are genuinely interested, it’s all in this thread:CD13 said:This may be a naïve question, but what have flights to do with a free-trading organisation? Joining a European flight arrangement should be a separate issue totally. As was Euratom.
Yes, I know that the EEC changed into the EU, but doesn't this emphasise that the like Topsy, it just growed and growed. Surely these were add-ons? Why incorporate them into the very body of the organisation. It's almost as if it were a cunning plan to prevent an easy departure.
Ah, I think I've answered my own question.
https://twitter.com/brianmlucey/status/1020603084806840320?s=21
Always remember, it is a TORY BREXIT. They made the bed, they should lie on it.
Because almost 100% of Irish flights either fly over airspace that either that is above the UK or is at least jointly managed under international treaties by the UK.
Because shutting down British tourism imports would be destructive from an EU perspective.
Even if we go WTO there are issues to deal with.0 -
What we get with the withdrawal agreement is a two year transition and avoidance of chaos, a basis for future talks and a clarification of legal obligations that are otherwise open to dispute. No Deal means chaos and everything thrown into the air. The EU will have a very strong hand in that situation. It will be extremely humiliating for the UK.archer101au said:
What Raab is pointing out is the same point you missed over Chequers. A withdrawal agreement where we pay 40bn and do not get a trade agreement as well will not pass the Commons.SouthamObserver said:
Varadakar clearly differentiates between a transition deal and a No Deal. All he did was make a statement of fact. If there is no deal there will be no flights. Clearly, this is one reason why there is likely to be some kind of minimal deal at the very least. And it will involve the UK paying the money it has agreed it owes.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, different people seem to use no deal to refer to either no end deal, or withdrawal/transition deal.
Anyway, if such can be negotiated, and it's a sign of just how well things are going that this is even a question, then that's all fine.
If there is no deal, the UK Government will say that they are going to reserve their position on a financial settlement until such time as an FTA is agreed with the EU. The second after we leave with No Deal, the EU's negotiating strength drops to zero.0 -
So we don't cover SHANWICK?Dura_Ace said:
The RAF don't provide a ring of a brylcreem at a remove of 10km all around Ireland. The UK QRA area only goes out to about 10W in the north, follows the 28/6 counties border and down (approximately) the middle of the Irish sea. There is no QRA cover to the south or west of Ireland.Philip_Thompson said:
Have wormholes been invented? Warp drives?Dura_Ace said:
Not this shit again. No, it doesn't.Morris_Dancer said:
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
The UK QRA operational area specifically excludes the air space of the RoI.
This is what I wrote the last time somebody trotted out this blatant untruth:
On all of my carrier deployments we were specifically forbidden from flying within 10km of Irish airspace. Such was the sensitivity to UK mil traffic...
If we're guaranteeing the security of a 10km circumference around Ireland then we are de facto guaranteeing the security of Ireland. Unless you've got some magical way hostile agents can get to Ireland.0 -
Does Ireland need protection ? From which country ? UK ?Philip_Thompson said:
Have wormholes been invented? Warp drives?Dura_Ace said:
Not this shit again. No, it doesn't.Morris_Dancer said:
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
The UK QRA operational area specifically excludes the air space of the RoI.
This is what I wrote the last time somebody trotted out this blatant untruth:
On all of my carrier deployments we were specifically forbidden from flying within 10km of Irish airspace. Such was the sensitivity to UK mil traffic...
If we're guaranteeing the security of a 10km circumference around Ireland then we are de facto guaranteeing the security of Ireland. Unless you've got some magical way hostile agents can get to Ireland.0 -
For search and rescue (in the heady days when we had aircraft capable of doing) not for air policing.Philip_Thompson said:
So we don't cover SHANWICK?Dura_Ace said:
The RAF don't provide a ring of a brylcreem at a remove of 10km all around Ireland. The UK QRA area only goes out to about 10W in the north, follows the 28/6 counties border and down (approximately) the middle of the Irish sea. There is no QRA cover to the south or west of Ireland.Philip_Thompson said:
Have wormholes been invented? Warp drives?Dura_Ace said:
Not this shit again. No, it doesn't.Morris_Dancer said:
Not to mention the RAF guarantees the security of Irish airspace.
The UK QRA operational area specifically excludes the air space of the RoI.
This is what I wrote the last time somebody trotted out this blatant untruth:
On all of my carrier deployments we were specifically forbidden from flying within 10km of Irish airspace. Such was the sensitivity to UK mil traffic...
If we're guaranteeing the security of a 10km circumference around Ireland then we are de facto guaranteeing the security of Ireland. Unless you've got some magical way hostile agents can get to Ireland.0
