politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Wythenshawe and Sale E could be a dry run for Toby Young’s
Comments
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I think trying to make some sort of a pre-election deal at next GE is precisely what UKIP should be trying to do.
They could for example agree not to stand in possible Tory seats in return for a free run in say 5 or 6 seats that the Tories weren't going to win anyway. Additionally they'd want an agreement on the EU referendum.
They could then run a national message saying that a vote for UKIP where they stand is a guarantee of a referendum and where UKIP doesn't stand then a vote for the Tories is the next best thing.
For 'Tories' one could easily substitute 'Labour' if they decided to agree to a referendum.
I can't quite see it happening, but if I was a UKIP supporter it'd be precisely the route I'd be following. (admittedly my thinking here is a bit off-the-cuff)
I'm rather basing this on the premise that all UKIP want is an EU referendum and a decent shot at promoting the out vote. I don't really see them as a viable political movement beyond that narrow aim, but if their ambitions are wider then perhaps the above wouldn't be a good idea.
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I've not noticed UKIP adopting a protectionist, statist FN platform.Danny565 said:
...seems to be starting to take UKIP in the direction of the French National Front, by mixing conservative policies on immigration and crime with populist leftwing messages on the economy and welfare state (marrying it all together under an anti-globalisation, anti-big business, pro-working man banner).GeoffM said:
That's very true. The original free market libertarian UKIP had a lot that I liked - in terms of how they were going to leave me alone to live my life freely. The more recent sounds coming from UKIP are just a different flavour of authoritarianism.rcs1000 said:
But which UKIP, Sean?Sean_F said:5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.
The free-trade libertarianism of Richard Tyndall?
Or the social conservatism and trade barriers of Paul_Mid_Beds?
UKIP used to be a free market libertarian party. And I know Richard still thinks it is that (and I could possibly support it if it was), but many of its supporters on this board have very different views. UKIP seems to be the broadest church of them all - and that is both a challenge and an opportunity.
If the ideas on personal freedom make a comeback then I could well vote for them in the Euros.
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According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"0 -
So what? Their vote share increased by 0.3% on their 2005 showing in the constituency. The Tories were 7,000 short of the Labour total in 2010, almost 11,000 short in 2005 and 13,000 short in 2001. There are just not enough Tories for UKIP to win over in the constituency for UKIP to have a realistic chance of overhauling a rejuvenated Labour party in their own backyard. This isn't Newbury we are talking about it's the socialist republic of Manchester.HYUFD said:SmithersJones The last election result also had UKIP slightly above their national score in Wythenshawe, and their poll rating has jumped since then and they have beaten the Tories in all recent similar northern by-elections in Labour seats.
Now the nearest by-election was in Manchester Central (two constituencies away) and UKIP only managed to improve their vote share from 2010 by 3% and came fourth. Now I don't expect Wythenshawe to be so unforgiving for UKIP as that, as I have said, but even so this is not good UKIP territory.0 -
Mr. Omnium, it's hard to see a deal that could satisfy both sides. Not only in electoral, pragmatic terms, but also on the basis that quite a few UKIPpers are either ex-Labour (but loyally anti-Tory) or ex-Tory and as opposed to them as People's Front of Judea are to the Judean's People's Front.
As mentioned earlier by Mr. Eagles, UKIP high command (which wasn't very commanding) ordered the UKIP candidate not to oppose a sceptical blue incumbent MP last time round. The UKIP candidate ignored the order, stood, and the sceptic was defeated by a pro-EU Lib Dem.
Mr. Young is being a silly sausage.0 -
Eastleigh was/is a Conservative target seat. During the by-election they seemed to have no local party at all.Omnium said:
They could for example agree not to stand in possible Tory seats in return for a free run in say 5 or 6 seats that the Tories weren't going to win anyway.
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Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?0 -
I may invite the chief scout, Bear Grylls, to stand in Sale.
Only he can bring decent British values to Greater Manchester.
I see nothing good in a Conservative Party whose only real achievement in office was to double Labour's debt in just five years, despite telling voters they are "paying down the debt".
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I doubt Labour will campaign too hard on that basis. "Vote Labour, so we can run up the debt even more quickly" doesn't sound like a vote winner to me.TheLastBoyScout said:I may invite the chief scout, Bear Grylls, to stand in Sale.
Only he can bring decent British values to Greater Manchester.
I see nothing good in a Conservative Party whose only real achievement in office was to double Labour's debt in just five years, despite telling voters they are "paying down the debt".0 -
Mr Dancer its only a certain type of Tory some of us are allergic to. The tough Yorkshire Morris Dancer conservative types are alright. its the wimpy smeary Notting Hill liberal Tory twerps that are the problem!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Omnium, it's hard to see a deal that could satisfy both sides. Not only in electoral, pragmatic terms, but also on the basis that quite a few UKIPpers are either ex-Labour (but loyally anti-Tory) or ex-Tory and as opposed to them as People's Front of Judea are to the Judean's People's Front.
As mentioned earlier by Mr. Eagles, UKIP high command (which wasn't very commanding) ordered the UKIP candidate not to oppose a sceptical blue incumbent MP last time round. The UKIP candidate ignored the order, stood, and the sceptic was defeated by a pro-EU Lib Dem.
Mr. Young is being a silly sausage.
And in the case of the wets, rather than PFJ vs JPF, its more a case of what happens when you give up smoking. You've known its been bad for you for years and now you've finally managed to kick the habit you are never going back to it
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It useful to see what tedious little ploys the Tories are testing out this week though isn't it? [Yawn] trying to create this phantom division in UKIP (no doubt to reflect their own chasmic divisions) is quite twee.anotherDave said:
I've not noticed UKIP adopting a protectionist, statist FN platform.Danny565 said:
...seems to be starting to take UKIP in the direction of the French National Front, by mixing conservative policies on immigration and crime with populist leftwing messages on the economy and welfare state (marrying it all together under an anti-globalisation, anti-big business, pro-working man banner).GeoffM said:
That's very true. The original free market libertarian UKIP had a lot that I liked - in terms of how they were going to leave me alone to live my life freely. The more recent sounds coming from UKIP are just a different flavour of authoritarianism.rcs1000 said:
But which UKIP, Sean?Sean_F said:5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.
The free-trade libertarianism of Richard Tyndall?
Or the social conservatism and trade barriers of Paul_Mid_Beds?
UKIP used to be a free market libertarian party. And I know Richard still thinks it is that (and I could possibly support it if it was), but many of its supporters on this board have very different views. UKIP seems to be the broadest church of them all - and that is both a challenge and an opportunity.
If the ideas on personal freedom make a comeback then I could well vote for them in the Euros.0 -
My final thought for the evening, if Toby Young wants an electoral pact, the best way to achieve this would be under a new electoral voting system.
Perhaps we should have another referendum on AV.0 -
Labour will simply match the Conservative plans. And neither party will do a sausage to reduce the debt. The Government need to take a long walk in cold woodlands and ask themselves why they have tried to hoodwink the electorate into thinking they are paying off debt.antifrank said:
I doubt Labour will campaign too hard on that basis. "Vote Labour, so we can run up the debt even more quickly" doesn't sound like a vote winner to me.TheLastBoyScout said:I may invite the chief scout, Bear Grylls, to stand in Sale.
Only he can bring decent British values to Greater Manchester.
I see nothing good in a Conservative Party whose only real achievement in office was to double Labour's debt in just five years, despite telling voters they are "paying down the debt".
Storm's coming.
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Allowing smoking indoors is not a good way to protect unborn children.Paul_Mid_Beds said:
According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"
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Mr. Scout, your comment regarding deficit/debt is either wilfully misleading to the point of deceit or you genuinely don't understand why it's sillier than a mongoose wearing a fez.
In case the fez is the answer, I'll explain:
The deficit upon the Coalition (we don't have a Conservative Government) coming to power was larger than it is now.
Labour called for the cuts to be slower because they were 'too far and too fast'.
Slower cuts would have meant higher spending.
Higher spending would've meant that (relative to what happened) the deficit would have been higher.
A higher deficit would lead to a higher debt.
The only way to completely reduce the deficit would have been to cut and tax to make up the entire shortfall immediately. That would've probably hamstrung growth (which was also not helped by the eurozone sovereign debt crisis), resulting in tax takes below forecasts and more cuts.
Mr. 2013, ha, I feel the need to correct a common (nigh on universal!) misconception: I am a rightwinger, but not a Conservative. I'll be voting UKIP at the euros. Has to be Conservative at the General Election because Balls is my MP and the only realistic alternative is the Conservative candidate.
Anyway, now that's out of the way: I concur with your contempt for the dreadfully guilty feeling, politically correct, warmist sorts. I think Cameron has some decent ideas but his greenery, weakness on the EU and frittering away of money on aid are not my cup of tea. And Defence should've been ringfenced, not Health.
...don't lots of smokers relapse? I've never been one (habitually, I tried a few at the apex of juvenile rebellion to see what it was like).0 -
Wythenshawe and Sale East was 81.6% white British in 2011, and 87.1% white overall:
http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6508267&c=wythenshawe&d=27&e=61&g=6342184&i=1001x1003x1032x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1389471336423&enc=1&dsFamilyId=25750 -
I think you are being harsh with your generalisation of how kippers think about immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
But UKIP aren't as libertarian as they say that seems to be quite true
It depends on to what extent one thinks gay marriage affects people who aren't involved in a gay marriage I suppose0 -
Giving up smoking is easy, I've done it loads of times.Morris_Dancer said:
...don't lots of smokers relapse? I've never been one (habitually, I tried a few at the apex of juvenile rebellion to see what it was like).
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Mr. Isam, isn't that like asking how the age of consent affects those who have taken a vow of chastity?0
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From long distance it looks like the DE to C2 ratio in Wythenshawe looks like it might be the wrong way round for Ukip but if it was the other way round they'd be in with a shot imo. As it is 2nd is more likely be the best they could get.smithersjones2013 said:In 2010 The Tory and Libdem vote were almost equal and each was just over half of the Labour vote . If UKIP took half of each it would put them in second but still nowhere near Labour. What would have to happen is for all the Tory UKIP and Libdem vote to come together under one banner and that would possibly defeat Labour but I really cannot see that happening under any circumstances
Actual question then is how much is it worth to cement the narrative of Ukip as 2nd party to Labour in the north and 2nd party to Con in the south.
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Yes it is, but I can see why one could take a vow of chastity and still have an opinion on the age of consentMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, isn't that like asking how the age of consent affects those who have taken a vow of chastity?
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Then why say they have been paying off debt? That is sillier than an elephant eating caviar.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Scout, your comment regarding deficit/debt is either wilfully misleading to the point of deceit or you genuinely don't understand why it's sillier than a mongoose wearing a fez.
In case the fez is the answer, I'll explain:
The deficit upon the Coalition (we don't have a Conservative Government) coming to power was larger than it is now.
Labour called for the cuts to be slower because they were 'too far and too fast'.
Slower cuts would have meant higher spending.
Higher spending would've meant that (relative to what happened) the deficit would have been higher.
A higher deficit would lead to a higher debt.
The only way to completely reduce the deficit would have been to cut and tax to make up the entire shortfall immediately. That would've probably hamstrung growth (which was also not helped by the eurozone sovereign debt crisis), resulting in tax takes below forecasts and more cuts.
Mr. 2013, ha, I feel the need to correct a common (nigh on universal!) misconception: I am a rightwinger, but not a Conservative. I'll be voting UKIP at the euros. Has to be Conservative at the General Election because Balls is my MP and the only realistic alternative is the Conservative candidate.
Anyway, now that's out of the way: I concur with your contempt for the dreadfully guilty feeling, politically correct, warmist sorts. I think Cameron has some decent ideas but his greenery, weakness on the EU and frittering away of money on aid are not my cup of tea. And Defence should've been ringfenced, not Health.
...don't lots of smokers relapse? I've never been one (habitually, I tried a few at the apex of juvenile rebellion to see what it was like).0 -
The first part of my post, was my terrible attempt to troll MikeK's terrible trolling in his original post.isam said:
I think you are being harsh with your generalisation of how kippers think about immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
But UKIP aren't as libertarian as they say that seems to be quite true
It depends on to what extent one thinks gay marriage affects people who aren't involved in a gay marriage I suppose0 -
My wife texted me this joke earlier
The media say it's ridiculous that David Cameron's barber got an MBE.
But imagine the restraint it takes not to stab the [moderated]0 -
Mr. Scout, because Osborne, like frontbenchers on all sides, has shamelessly (and shamefully) conflated different terms. The media are too stupid or too compliant to point this out.0
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Immigration and gay "marriage" are linked in a rather interesting way:TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
They both are about succession policy. In immigration's case, the next generation of Britons comes from abroad, in same-sex "marriage" it seems to be abroad also.
Interestingly, UKIP seem to tolerate limited amounts of both, but object strongly when either is institutionalised, in effect, making a failure permanent.
But you seem to have twigged where UKIP's support is now coming from in your first line; the mainly Christian social conservatives. Viewed from this perspective, Farage's moves about gay "marriage" and refugees are of a piece. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Farage is descended from Christian refugees himself.
Cameron's foreign and domestic policies have created room for a socially conservative party of the Right.0 -
I think it is an important step to becoming a major national party. If you can argue across England and perhaps in time across most of the UK that only you can defeat X and arguably are challenging both major parties nationally then that's not a bad place to be.MrJones said:
From long distance it looks like the DE to C2 ratio in Wythenshawe looks like it might be the wrong way round for Ukip but if it was the other way round they'd be in with a shot imo. As it is 2nd is more likely be the best they could get.smithersjones2013 said:In 2010 The Tory and Libdem vote were almost equal and each was just over half of the Labour vote . If UKIP took half of each it would put them in second but still nowhere near Labour. What would have to happen is for all the Tory UKIP and Libdem vote to come together under one banner and that would possibly defeat Labour but I really cannot see that happening under any circumstances
Actual question then is how much is it worth to cement the narrative of Ukip as 2nd party to Labour in the north and 2nd party to Con in the south.
The Libdems were on their way to that position and then threw it away for a whiff of power.0 -
Because at least 95% of the public is never going to understand the difference between debt and deficit.TheLastBoyScout said:
Then why say they have been paying off debt? That is sillier than an elephant eating caviar.
So they have to use some language to indicate that they are tackling the problem.
Unsatisfactory I know but that's the position they are in.0 -
That's why I could never vote UKIP, I'd make a terrible Social Conservative.Ninoinoz said:
Immigration and gay "marriage" are linked in a rather interesting way:TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
They both are about succession policy. In immigration's case, the next generation of Britons comes from abroad, in same-sex "marriage" it seems to be abroad also.
Interestingly, UKIP seem to tolerate limited amounts of both, but object strongly when either is institutionalised, in effect, making a failure permanent.
But you seem to have twigged where UKIP's support is now coming from in your first line; the mainly Christian social conservatives. Viewed from this perspective, Farage's moves about gay "marriage" and refugees are of a piece. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Farage is descended from Christian refugees himself.
Cameron's foreign and domestic policies have created room for a socially conservative party of the Right.
I mean, I once tried to be a Social Conservative, it lasted for about ten hours.0 -
How many Christian social conservatives are there in the UK?Ninoinoz said:But you seem to have twigged where UKIP's support is now coming from in your first line; the mainly Christian social conservatives. Viewed from this perspective, Farage's moves about gay "marriage" and refugees are of a piece. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Farage is descended from Christian refugees himself.
Cameron's foreign and domestic policies have created room for a socially conservative party of the Right.
Each Sunday the grand total of 1% of the population attends a C of E church.
It's all very well if some people say (ah, but many more people believe etc etc) - if you really care and it is important to you then you would go to church at least reasonably often, if not every week.
Surveys show religion plays either no part or at most a tiny part in the lives of the vast majority of people.0 -
Wowzers!
UKIP into 4s from 12s for W&SE w Ladbrokes!
Now 4/6 for 2nd place (from 10/11)
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What sort of dumb comment is this?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, isn't that like asking how the age of consent affects those who have taken a vow of chastity?
Of course people who are chaste care about the age of consent.
To think that such people do not care about the protection of children in particular and society in general is absurd.0 -
Mr. Ninoinoz, changing the age from 16 to 21 would not affect children. I was not having a go at those who have taken such vows for religious reasons, who are asexual, or who are incredibly bad at hooking up with other people.0
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Looks like Antifrank's wish is coming true.isam said:Wowzers!
UKIP into 4s from 12s for W&SE w Ladbrokes!
Now 4/6 for 2nd place (from 10/11)0 -
Naughty, naughty.MikeL said:
How many Christian social conservatives are there in the UK?Ninoinoz said:But you seem to have twigged where UKIP's support is now coming from in your first line; the mainly Christian social conservatives. Viewed from this perspective, Farage's moves about gay "marriage" and refugees are of a piece. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Farage is descended from Christian refugees himself.
Cameron's foreign and domestic policies have created room for a socially conservative party of the Right.
Each Sunday the grand total of 1% of the population attends a C of E church.
The Catholic Church's congregations have outnumbered the C. of E.'s for many years now. You are also forgetting the upsurge in evangelical and Black churches. Amazing how one talk about immigration and there's always some guy who thinks it won't affect him.
Also, taking one week is a rather ridiculous way of measuring adherence to a faith.0 -
I stand corrected!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Scout, your comment regarding deficit/debt is either wilfully misleading to the point of deceit or you genuinely don't understand why it's sillier than a mongoose wearing a fez.
In case the fez is the answer, I'll explain:
The deficit upon the Coalition (we don't have a Conservative Government) coming to power was larger than it is now.
Labour called for the cuts to be slower because they were 'too far and too fast'.
Slower cuts would have meant higher spending.
Higher spending would've meant that (relative to what happened) the deficit would have been higher.
A higher deficit would lead to a higher debt.
The only way to completely reduce the deficit would have been to cut and tax to make up the entire shortfall immediately. That would've probably hamstrung growth (which was also not helped by the eurozone sovereign debt crisis), resulting in tax takes below forecasts and more cuts.
Mr. 2013, ha, I feel the need to correct a common (nigh on universal!) misconception: I am a rightwinger, but not a Conservative. I'll be voting UKIP at the euros. Has to be Conservative at the General Election because Balls is my MP and the only realistic alternative is the Conservative candidate.
Anyway, now that's out of the way: I concur with your contempt for the dreadfully guilty feeling, politically correct, warmist sorts. I think Cameron has some decent ideas but his greenery, weakness on the EU and frittering away of money on aid are not my cup of tea. And Defence should've been ringfenced, not Health.
...don't lots of smokers relapse? I've never been one (habitually, I tried a few at the apex of juvenile rebellion to see what it was like).
Some relapse usually in a moment of weakness. I once gave up for a non-smoking woman. We broke up, I started again and so did she!. The second time I gave up was four/ five years ago and I haven't looked back. My history with the Tories is similar. I gave up on them in the 90's only to be tempted back in 2004 but now not a chance.
Thats the thing I think many of those who are deserting the Tories are not people who would do so lightly. They are serious about giving them up.0 -
It is odd that they feel they have to lie.MikeL said:
Because at least 95% of the public is never going to understand the difference between debt and deficit.TheLastBoyScout said:
Then why say they have been paying off debt? That is sillier than an elephant eating caviar.
So they have to use some language to indicate that they are tackling the problem.
Unsatisfactory I know but that's the position they are in.
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Np, Mr. 2013. I must have a certain Conservative quality (is it the avatar?), as many have made the mistake before.
Anyway, I am off. The Bridge starts at 9pm on BBC4, for those interested.0 -
I've become absolutely hooked on The Bridge. It is better than Homeland.Morris_Dancer said:Np, Mr. 2013. I must have a certain Conservative quality (is it the avatar?), as many have made the mistake before.
Anyway, I am off. The Bridge starts at 9pm on BBC4, for those interested.
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Blimey, surveys. It's come to this.MikeL said:
How many Christian social conservatives are there in the UK?Ninoinoz said:But you seem to have twigged where UKIP's support is now coming from in your first line; the mainly Christian social conservatives. Viewed from this perspective, Farage's moves about gay "marriage" and refugees are of a piece. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Farage is descended from Christian refugees himself.
Cameron's foreign and domestic policies have created room for a socially conservative party of the Right.
Each Sunday the grand total of 1% of the population attends a C of E church.
It's all very well if some people say (ah, but many more people believe etc etc) - if you really care and it is important to you then you would go to church at least reasonably often, if not every week.
Surveys show religion plays either no part or at most a tiny part in the lives of the vast majority of people.
The number of new schools being founded by faith in addition to the considerable number already in existence.
Christian food banks seem to be springing up all over the place.
All of which you seem oblivious to.
BTW, would you mind applying the your criteria to political parties for me. Thanks.0 -
Nuttals speech in September:
They are clearly aiming for labour votes and to position themselves as the successors to people like Paul Goggins:
"Firstly, the Labour party itself has abandoned it's working class roots. If you look at the opinion polls, it shows that between 1997 and 2010, the majority of Labour votes lost, were in working class areas. These people are either looking elsewhere to other political parties. Many of them voted Liberal Democrat. They won’t be doing that again.
One or two and it’s literally one or two, will vote Conservative. Some unfortunately will hold their nose and voted for the BNP. But most have not voted at all. They’ve given up. And why? It’s because Labour MPs don’t represent them any more. In the days of Clement Attlee the Labour MPs came from the mills, the mines and the factories.
The Labour MPs today follow the same route as the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. They go to private school, they go to Oxbridge, they get a job in an MP’s office, and they become an MP.
None of them ladies and gentlemen, would know what it’s like in a working man’s club. None of them would know a council estate if it fell out the sky, if it hit them on the head"
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Didn't Mussolini have his hand on a revolver as he was shaved by his barber?TheScreamingEagles said:My wife texted me this joke earlier
The media say it's ridiculous that David Cameron's barber got an MBE.
But imagine the restraint it takes not to stab the [moderated]0 -
Add in the Catholic church and you get to 2%.Ninoinoz said:Naughty, naughty.
The Catholic Church's congregations have outnumbered the C. of E.'s for many years now. You are also forgetting the upsurge in evangelical and Black churches. Amazing how one talk about immigration and there's always some guy who thinks it won't affect him.
Also, taking one week is a rather ridiculous way of measuring adherence to a faith.
Of course not everyone will go every week but well, well under 10% are going even once a month - if it's an important part of your life you will manage to go once a month.
Yes, of course there are black churches - but are their attendees really a key source of support for UKIP? I wouldn't have thought so.0 -
Perhaps you would care to comment on this:MikeL said:
How many Christian social conservatives are there in the UK?Ninoinoz said:But you seem to have twigged where UKIP's support is now coming from in your first line; the mainly Christian social conservatives. Viewed from this perspective, Farage's moves about gay "marriage" and refugees are of a piece. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Farage is descended from Christian refugees himself.
Cameron's foreign and domestic policies have created room for a socially conservative party of the Right.
Each Sunday the grand total of 1% of the population attends a C of E church.
It's all very well if some people say (ah, but many more people believe etc etc) - if you really care and it is important to you then you would go to church at least reasonably often, if not every week.
Surveys show religion plays either no part or at most a tiny part in the lives of the vast majority of people.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/one-10-babies-england-now-muslims-census-154908623.html#C7xRRiB
0 -
Should be Prime Minister based on the Save The Pub campaign alone!Paul_Mid_Beds said:
According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"0 -
We haven't.anotherDave said:
I've not noticed UKIP adopting a protectionist, statist FN platform.Danny565 said:
...seems to be starting to take UKIP in the direction of the French National Front, by mixing conservative policies on immigration and crime with populist leftwing messages on the economy and welfare state (marrying it all together under an anti-globalisation, anti-big business, pro-working man banner).GeoffM said:
That's very true. The original free market libertarian UKIP had a lot that I liked - in terms of how they were going to leave me alone to live my life freely. The more recent sounds coming from UKIP are just a different flavour of authoritarianism.rcs1000 said:
But which UKIP, Sean?Sean_F said:5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.
The free-trade libertarianism of Richard Tyndall?
Or the social conservatism and trade barriers of Paul_Mid_Beds?
UKIP used to be a free market libertarian party. And I know Richard still thinks it is that (and I could possibly support it if it was), but many of its supporters on this board have very different views. UKIP seems to be the broadest church of them all - and that is both a challenge and an opportunity.
If the ideas on personal freedom make a comeback then I could well vote for them in the Euros.0 -
"I stand corrected!"smithersjones2013 said:
I stand corrected!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Scout, your comment regarding deficit/debt is either wilfully misleading to the point of deceit or you genuinely don't understand why it's sillier than a mongoose wearing a fez.
In case the fez is the answer, I'll explain:
The deficit upon the Coalition (we don't have a Conservative Government) coming to power was larger than it is now.
Labour called for the cuts to be slower because they were 'too far and too fast'.
Slower cuts would have meant higher spending.
Higher spending would've meant that (relative to what happened) the deficit would have been higher.
A higher deficit would lead to a higher debt.
The only way to completely reduce the deficit would have been to cut and tax to make up the entire shortfall immediately. That would've probably hamstrung growth (which was also not helped by the eurozone sovereign debt crisis), resulting in tax takes below forecasts and more cuts.
Mr. 2013, ha, I feel the need to correct a common (nigh on universal!) misconception: I am a rightwinger, but not a Conservative. I'll be voting UKIP at the euros. Has to be Conservative at the General Election because Balls is my MP and the only realistic alternative is the Conservative candidate.
Anyway, now that's out of the way: I concur with your contempt for the dreadfully guilty feeling, politically correct, warmist sorts. I think Cameron has some decent ideas but his greenery, weakness on the EU and frittering away of money on aid are not my cup of tea. And Defence should've been ringfenced, not Health.
...don't lots of smokers relapse? I've never been one (habitually, I tried a few at the apex of juvenile rebellion to see what it was like).
Some relapse usually in a moment of weakness. I once gave up for a non-smoking woman. We broke up, I started again and so did she!. The second time I gave up was four/ five years ago and I haven't looked back. My history with the Tories is similar. I gave up on them in the 90's only to be tempted back in 2004 but now not a chance.
Thats the thing I think many of those who are deserting the Tories are not people who would do so lightly. They are serious about giving them up.
Are you wearing orthopaedic shoes?0 -
So, I imagined that Black Pentecostal pastor standing in the Croydon North by-election, did I?MikeL said:
Add in the Catholic church and you get to 2%.Ninoinoz said:Naughty, naughty.
The Catholic Church's congregations have outnumbered the C. of E.'s for many years now. You are also forgetting the upsurge in evangelical and Black churches. Amazing how one talk about immigration and there's always some guy who thinks it won't affect him.
Also, taking one week is a rather ridiculous way of measuring adherence to a faith.
Of course not everyone will go every week but well, well under 10% are going even once a month - if it's an important part of your life you will manage to go once a month.
Yes, of course there are black churches - but are their attendees really a key source of support for UKIP? I wouldn't have thought so.
Black Pentecostalists are particularly hostile to homosexuality. See Africa for details.0 -
Now now this is a family blog. You can't go asking people what they are wearing!isam said:
"I stand corrected!"smithersjones2013 said:
I stand corrected!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Scout, your comment regarding deficit/debt is either wilfully misleading to the point of deceit or you genuinely don't understand why it's sillier than a mongoose wearing a fez.
In case the fez is the answer, I'll explain:
The deficit upon the Coalition (we don't have a Conservative Government) coming to power was larger than it is now.
Labour called for the cuts to be slower because they were 'too far and too fast'.
Slower cuts would have meant higher spending.
Higher spending would've meant that (relative to what happened) the deficit would have been higher.
A higher deficit would lead to a higher debt.
The only way to completely reduce the deficit would have been to cut and tax to make up the entire shortfall immediately. That would've probably hamstrung growth (which was also not helped by the eurozone sovereign debt crisis), resulting in tax takes below forecasts and more cuts.
Mr. 2013, ha, I feel the need to correct a common (nigh on universal!) misconception: I am a rightwinger, but not a Conservative. I'll be voting UKIP at the euros. Has to be Conservative at the General Election because Balls is my MP and the only realistic alternative is the Conservative candidate.
Anyway, now that's out of the way: I concur with your contempt for the dreadfully guilty feeling, politically correct, warmist sorts. I think Cameron has some decent ideas but his greenery, weakness on the EU and frittering away of money on aid are not my cup of tea. And Defence should've been ringfenced, not Health.
...don't lots of smokers relapse? I've never been one (habitually, I tried a few at the apex of juvenile rebellion to see what it was like).
Some relapse usually in a moment of weakness. I once gave up for a non-smoking woman. We broke up, I started again and so did she!. The second time I gave up was four/ five years ago and I haven't looked back. My history with the Tories is similar. I gave up on them in the 90's only to be tempted back in 2004 but now not a chance.
Thats the thing I think many of those who are deserting the Tories are not people who would do so lightly. They are serious about giving them up.
Are you wearing orthopaedic shoes?
0 -
I know - but are muslims going to vote UKIP?Ninoinoz said:<
Perhaps you would care to comment on this:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/one-10-babies-england-now-muslims-census-154908623.html#C7xRRiB
The issue came up in terms of UKIP (/Con) strategy.
Following a social conservative platform in order to attract Muslims is not going to be a successful strategy for UKIP (or Con). Because the overwhelming majority of Muslims are never going to vote UKIP (or Con).
For the record muslims only comprise 5% to 6% of the adult population (though 9% of babies).0 -
UKIP's W&SE candidate in 2010.
He's a researcher for Nuttall...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxro6KPcOuw&list=PLA8B0C58B0254D713&index=120 -
Does anybody know the proportion of Roman Catholics and evangelicals in the constituency?Paul_Mid_Beds said:
According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"
The North West of England is the Catholic heartland of England and Paul Goggins (RIP) was a Roman Catholic.0 -
I find it difficult to believe the Christian vote in the UK will switch to UKIP in a major way. You cite evangelical and pentecostal churches, for example, won't these depend on immigration as a source of strength? Unease about anti-immigration sentiment will probably negate any anti-gay marriage boost you would get.Ninoinoz said:
Does anybody know the proportion of Roman Catholics and evangelicals in the constituency?Paul_Mid_Beds said:
According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"
The North West of England is the Catholic heartland of England and Paul Goggins (RIP) was a Roman Catholic.0 -
Not with you there TSE. I wasn't trolling when i said the you are terrified of UKIP success.TheScreamingEagles said:
The first part of my post, was my terrible attempt to troll MikeK's terrible trolling in his original post.isam said:
I think you are being harsh with your generalisation of how kippers think about immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
But UKIP aren't as libertarian as they say that seems to be quite true
It depends on to what extent one thinks gay marriage affects people who aren't involved in a gay marriage I suppose
All your posts, concerning UKIP, for at least 4 months, have shown how you try to downplay and denigrate any UKIP advance, wether in the polls or in actual by election votes.
You either try laughing it off as of no matter or, when that fails you pour scorn on kippers and say it won't last; cant last, will not last. Rising to a bit of hysteria, at times.
Calm down TSE. Relax. Take a couple of powders: don't let UKIP success go to your head.0 -
Dunno, but there are five Catholic parish churches in Wythenshawe alone...Ninoinoz said:
Does anybody know the proportion of Roman Catholics and evangelicals in the constituency?
The North West of England is the Catholic heartland of England and Paul Goggins (RIP) was a Roman Catholic.
and seven Catholic schools.0 -
YouGov - Sunday Times
Is I think,
Lab 40
Con 33
UKIP 14
LD 8 or 90 -
Should Muslims from an Asian background have any reason not to vote UKIP?MikeL said:
I know - but are muslims going to vote UKIP?Ninoinoz said:<
Perhaps you would care to comment on this:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/one-10-babies-england-now-muslims-census-154908623.html#C7xRRiB
The issue came up in terms of UKIP (/Con) strategy.
Following a social conservative platform in order to attract Muslims is not going to be a successful strategy for UKIP (or Con). Because the overwhelming majority of Muslims are never going to vote UKIP (or Con).
For the record muslims only comprise 5% to 6% of the adult population (though 9% of babies).0 -
What are you on about? Hysteria?MikeK said:
Not with you there TSE. I wasn't trolling when i said the you are terrified of UKIP success.TheScreamingEagles said:
The first part of my post, was my terrible attempt to troll MikeK's terrible trolling in his original post.isam said:
I think you are being harsh with your generalisation of how kippers think about immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
But UKIP aren't as libertarian as they say that seems to be quite true
It depends on to what extent one thinks gay marriage affects people who aren't involved in a gay marriage I suppose
All your posts, concerning UKIP, for at least 4 months, have shown how you try to downplay and denigrate any UKIP advance, wether in the polls or in actual by election votes.
You either try laughing it off as of no matter or, when that fails you pour scorn on kippers and say it won't last; cant last, will not last. Rising to a bit of hysteria, at times.
Calm down TSE. Relax. Take a couple of powders: don't let UKIP success go to your head.
I've been expectant that UKIP will comfortably outpoll the Tories in the Euros.
So your post falls down on epistemological grounds.0 -
could be fertile territory for UKIP?
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/catholiclife/2011/01/12/english-lessons-for-parents/0 -
Here's Chris Cassidy - the 23 year old 2010 WSE Ukip candidate - tweeting a moment ago:
Christopher Cassidy @CllrCassidy 2m
Over the years, UKIP have become the official opposition in a number of wards in Wythenshawe. It's time for us to really make a mark now.
Wonder if they'll let him run again. Think his age might work in his favour - new broom. Went to the local school in Sale too.0 -
According to UK Polling Report the 2011 censurs reported that the consituency isNinoinoz said:
Does anybody know the proportion of Roman Catholics and evangelicals in the constituency?
The North West of England is the Catholic heartland of England and Paul Goggins (RIP) was a Roman Catholic.
63.2% Christian
3.1% muslim.
32% other N/A
I would guess that the Catholic element is up to 30% of that 63.2%.
It also reports that 54% of homes are owner occupied.
Ethnic: 87.4% white (down from 94.9% white in 2001) , 5.6% asian (1.5% in 2001) 3.3% mixed race (1.8% in 2001), 2.8% Black (1% in 2001), 1.2% other (0.7% in 2001).
Seems a bit like a sort of north west Basildon in some respects to me.
0 -
Huzzah, the Crystal Methodist is back!
Nick Sutton @suttonnick 43s
Mail on Sunday front page – “Crystal Methodist: I’m back on ketamine” #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers
pic.twitter.com/kjzsw57YeH0 -
You don't know many Poles, do you?Freggles said:
I find it difficult to believe the Christian vote in the UK will switch to UKIP in a major way. You cite evangelical and pentecostal churches, for example, won't these depend on immigration as a source of strength? Unease about anti-immigration sentiment will probably negate any anti-gay marriage boost you would get.Ninoinoz said:
Does anybody know the proportion of Roman Catholics and evangelicals in the constituency?Paul_Mid_Beds said:
According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"
The North West of England is the Catholic heartland of England and Paul Goggins (RIP) was a Roman Catholic.0 -
Thanks for that, I'll read it in the paper copy I'll pick up in church tomorrow.RodCrosby said:could be fertile territory for UKIP?
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/catholiclife/2011/01/12/english-lessons-for-parents/
It appears my hunch was correct - there is an extensive Catholic population in Wythenshawe.
Also I note a potential UKIP candidate is called Cassidy.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the Labour Party will pick a Catholic and local candidate, who'll probably come out against abortion and gay marriage. The Labour Party is much less stupid than the Tories.
If there are any Ukippers reading this - make the restoration of Catholic adoption agencies a big part of your platform. Tapping into that resentment will hurt Labour and Cameron.0 -
Your comment at 8:00 does come across as rather overwrought.TheScreamingEagles said:
What are you on about? Hysteria?MikeK said:
Not with you there TSE. I wasn't trolling when i said the you are terrified of UKIP success.TheScreamingEagles said:
The first part of my post, was my terrible attempt to troll MikeK's terrible trolling in his original post.isam said:
I think you are being harsh with your generalisation of how kippers think about immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
But UKIP aren't as libertarian as they say that seems to be quite true
It depends on to what extent one thinks gay marriage affects people who aren't involved in a gay marriage I suppose
All your posts, concerning UKIP, for at least 4 months, have shown how you try to downplay and denigrate any UKIP advance, wether in the polls or in actual by election votes.
You either try laughing it off as of no matter or, when that fails you pour scorn on kippers and say it won't last; cant last, will not last. Rising to a bit of hysteria, at times.
Calm down TSE. Relax. Take a couple of powders: don't let UKIP success go to your head.
I've been expectant that UKIP will comfortably outpoll the Tories in the Euros.
So your post falls down on epistemological grounds.
0 -
Interestingly, Goggins' long-serving predecessor in parliament, Alf Morris, was also a Catholic.
Wythenshawe has had a Catholic MP for 50 years...
http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/25th-august-2012/31/obituary0 -
Look at the context, he was the one accusing me of looking for Kippers under the bed.another_richard said:
Your comment at 8:00 does come across as rather overwrought.TheScreamingEagles said:
What are you on about? Hysteria?MikeK said:
Not with you there TSE. I wasn't trolling when i said the you are terrified of UKIP success.TheScreamingEagles said:
The first part of my post, was my terrible attempt to troll MikeK's terrible trolling in his original post.isam said:
I think you are being harsh with your generalisation of how kippers think about immigrants.TheScreamingEagles said:
Ah you think I view kippers in the same way Kippers view any immigrant to this country, particularly non Christian ones.MikeK said:TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.
Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
The main thing that perplexes me about UKIP is this.
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
But UKIP aren't as libertarian as they say that seems to be quite true
It depends on to what extent one thinks gay marriage affects people who aren't involved in a gay marriage I suppose
All your posts, concerning UKIP, for at least 4 months, have shown how you try to downplay and denigrate any UKIP advance, wether in the polls or in actual by election votes.
You either try laughing it off as of no matter or, when that fails you pour scorn on kippers and say it won't last; cant last, will not last. Rising to a bit of hysteria, at times.
Calm down TSE. Relax. Take a couple of powders: don't let UKIP success go to your head.
I've been expectant that UKIP will comfortably outpoll the Tories in the Euros.
So your post falls down on epistemological grounds.
I merely replied in kind.0 -
The correct definition of UKIP is as an ultra conservative political force. Basically, NO CHANGE from the way it use dto be.
There are other words to describe such tendencies.0 -
Well, there has been a lot of anti-Catholic bile since 2006.RodCrosby said:Interestingly, Goggins' long-serving predecessor in parliament, Alf Morris, was also a Catholic.
Wythenshawe has had a Catholic MP for 50 years...
http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/25th-august-2012/31/obituary
Ukippers would do well to pray that the other parties are dopey enough to select a candidate who has given some hostages to fortune over the past few years. I doubt Labour would, but it's all too believable by Cameron's Tories.0 -
And turned up the volume several notches.TheScreamingEagles said:
Look at the context, he was the one accusing me of looking for Kippers under the bed.another_richard said:
Your comment at 8:00 does come across as rather overwrought.
I merely replied in kind.
Its easy to get into stupid arguments here and perhaps regret it later.
0 -
@Another_Richard
I acknowledged it was a terrible bit of trolling as soon as I posted it.
But I notice that MikeK ignored the substantive point of my discussion, and only iSam has acknowledged the substantive point of my comment.
Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?0 -
There is a residue of old-fashioned anti-Catholicism. And, a newer element that sees Catholics as standing in the way of the polysexual Utopia. Hopefully, we'll get a fervent Cameroon standing for the Tories.Ninoinoz said:
Well, there has been a lot of anti-Catholic bile since 2006.RodCrosby said:Interestingly, Goggins' long-serving predecessor in parliament, Alf Morris, was also a Catholic.
Wythenshawe has had a Catholic MP for 50 years...
http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/25th-august-2012/31/obituary
Ukippers would do well to pray that the other parties are dopey enough to select a candidate who has given some hostages to fortune over the past few years. I doubt Labour would, but it's all too believable by Cameron's Tories.
0 -
Very simple. A libertarian might well take the position that the state should get out of the marriage business altogether, and should allow the legal status of couples to be regulated by contract rather than family law.TheScreamingEagles said:Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?0 -
That is a policy I can see myself supporting, but right now, that's not the policy of UKIP, the current UKIP policy discriminates against gay couples.Life_ina_market_town said:
Very simple. A libertarian might well take the position that the state should get out of the marriage business altogether, and should allow the legal status of couples to be regulated by contract rather than family law.TheScreamingEagles said:Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Not very Libertarian is it.0 -
Great news for Cast Iron Cameron.
Nick Sutton @suttonnick 50m
Just think of all the flounces we would see. Comedy Gold.
Sunday Telegraph front page - "Exclusive: 95 Tory MPs call for EU law veto" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/0HlO8nt25h0 -
I don't speak for the Party. I speak for myself. I see UKIP as a moderately socially conservative party. As such, I think it's entirely logical that they should wish to retain gender as part of marriage.TheScreamingEagles said:@Another_Richard
I acknowledged it was a terrible bit of trolling as soon as I posted it.
But I notice that MikeK ignored the substantive point of my discussion, and only iSam has acknowledged the substantive point of my comment.
Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
0 -
The front page of the Sunday Express is well, erm,0
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's UKIP policy to repeal the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013.TheScreamingEagles said:That is a policy I can see myself supporting, but right now, that's not the policy of UKIP, the current UKIP policy discriminates against gay couples.
Not very Libertarian is it.0 -
Thanks, I can understand your viewpoint, without agreeing to it.Sean_F said:
I don't speak for the Party. I speak for myself. I see UKIP as a moderately socially conservative party. As such, I think it's entirely logical that they should wish to retain gender as part of marriage.TheScreamingEagles said:@Another_Richard
I acknowledged it was a terrible bit of trolling as soon as I posted it.
But I notice that MikeK ignored the substantive point of my discussion, and only iSam has acknowledged the substantive point of my comment.
Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?0 -
Someone turning up the volume? My, my.another_richard said:
And turned up the volume several notches.TheScreamingEagles said:
Look at the context, he was the one accusing me of looking for Kippers under the bed.another_richard said:
Your comment at 8:00 does come across as rather overwrought.
I merely replied in kind.
Its easy to get into stupid arguments here and perhaps regret it later.
Don't forget where to look before you go to bed TSE..............................
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Post on UKPR says 40/31. Can you confirm?TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov - Sunday Times
Is I think,
Lab 40
Con 33
UKIP 14
LD 8 or 90 -
I did think they would try and amend it to make it very difficult for gay people to get married.Life_ina_market_town said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's UKIP policy to repeal the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013.TheScreamingEagles said:That is a policy I can see myself supporting, but right now, that's not the policy of UKIP, the current UKIP policy discriminates against gay couples.
Not very Libertarian is it.0 -
I can confirm my figures are correct, bar the LDs which is unclear at the moment.MikeL said:
Post on UKPR says 40/31. Can you confirm?TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov - Sunday Times
Is I think,
Lab 40
Con 33
UKIP 14
LD 8 or 90 -
General Election @UKELECTIONS2015 55s
Wythenshawe & Sale East By-Election Odds for finishing 2nd
#UKIP was 4/5 now 4/6
#TORIES 5/4 now 6/4
#LABOUR 12/1 now 10/1
#LIBDEMS 33/1
There's going to be a crossover. Just not the one the Tories were hoping for, or expecting.0 -
NO CHANGE stands for no change from England as it used to be. Say, before the war. Culturally and socially, whatever they say.GeoffM said:
How does escaping from the EU count as No Change?surbiton said:The correct definition of UKIP is as an ultra conservative political force. Basically, NO CHANGE from the way it use dto be.
There are other words to describe such tendencies.0 -
Interesting stuff. Electricity prices across Europe dropped last month as mild temperatures, strong winds and stormy weather produced wind power records in Germany, France and the UK.
http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/news/international-news/124090-record-wind-power-levels-trigger-energy-price-fall.html0 -
KRT-SaysItLikeItIs @KRTshopaholic 4m
I'd be astounded if Desmond actually gave any names.
Good god. “@suttonnick: Sunday Express front page - Female MP abused boy in care #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers pic.twitter.com/IS0XmmbnuQ”0 -
Why is Labour hitting the 40's again ? Surely, it is crossover time. Do the people not know that ?0
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Ashcroft and Mike both tweeting 40/31. A misprint or a misunderstanding? Only MOE difference, of course, though 9 points would be at the upper end of recent polls.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can confirm my figures are correct, bar the LDs which is unclear at the moment.MikeL said:
Post on UKPR says 40/31. Can you confirm?TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov - Sunday Times
Is I think,
Lab 40
Con 33
UKIP 14
LD 8 or 9
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Mike and Lord Ashcroft are wrong*NickPalmer said:
Ashcroft and Mike both tweeting 40/31. A misprint or a misunderstanding? Only MOE difference, of course, though 9 points would be at the upper end of recent polls.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can confirm my figures are correct, bar the LDs which is unclear at the moment.MikeL said:
Post on UKPR says 40/31. Can you confirm?TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov - Sunday Times
Is I think,
Lab 40
Con 33
UKIP 14
LD 8 or 9
I'm going from the front page of the Sunday Times
twitter.com/suttonnick/status/422118237371760640
*Well that's something I never thought I'd write.0 -
megalomaniacs4u said:
Interesting stuff. Electricity prices across Europe dropped last month as mild temperatures, strong winds and stormy weather produced wind power records in Germany, France and the UK.
http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/news/international-news/124090-record-wind-power-levels-trigger-energy-price-fall.html
I look forward to my electricity bill reflecting these changes, though I expect Hell will freeze over first.
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Ah, good. I like the sound of that.surbiton said:
NO CHANGE stands for no change from England as it used to be. Say, before the war. Culturally and socially, whatever they say.GeoffM said:
How does escaping from the EU count as No Change?surbiton said:The correct definition of UKIP is as an ultra conservative political force. Basically, NO CHANGE from the way it use dto be.
There are other words to describe such tendencies.
0 -
Do UKIP officially claim to be a libertarian party and does Farage claim to be one ?TheScreamingEagles said:@Another_Richard
I acknowledged it was a terrible bit of trolling as soon as I posted it.
But I notice that MikeK ignored the substantive point of my discussion, and only iSam has acknowledged the substantive point of my comment.
Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
To me libertariansim is supporting the right to do things you don't like and wish other people wouldn't do. By that definition none of the parties are libertarian.
On the particular gay marriage issue are you saying that anyone who supported the law up until the change is be definition not a libertarian ?
In any case the political parties aren't short of people who profess one thing but belong to parties with different views.
As I remember you once said that supporting military personnel was one of your red lines when it came to politcal support. Can we take it that you've cut your links with the Conservative party in that case ?
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From the Times fp
Lab-40,UKIP-14,Others-6 which leaves 40.
So it`s likely Con-31,Libs-9.0 -
megalomaniacs4u said:
Interesting stuff. Electricity prices across Europe dropped last month as mild temperatures, strong winds and stormy weather produced wind power records in Germany, France and the UK.
http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/news/international-news/124090-record-wind-power-levels-trigger-energy-price-fall.html
New record also in Ireland.
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/12/20/germany-ireland-uk-set-new-wind-generation-records/
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As McAlpine of West Green demonstrated, you don't have to name names to expose yourself to liability in defamation.Mick_Pork said:I'd be astounded if Desmond actually gave any names.
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The Census in England at least doesn't split Christians by denomination. I presume it's the same in Scotland and Wales. The one part of the UK where Census data is available for Catholics v. Protestant "and other Christian denominations" is Northern Ireland.Ninoinoz said:
Does anybody know the proportion of Roman Catholics and evangelicals in the constituency?Paul_Mid_Beds said:
According to Paul Nuttals Wikipedia page: " A Roman Catholic, Nuttall opposes abortion and is a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC) and has spoken at a number of their events. He is also well known for his stances regarding crime and anti-social behaviour. He has called for tougher prison sentences for persistent re-offenders, drug dealers and violent criminals and for an increase in prison capacity in his region. Controversially, he signed the e-petition which calls for the reintroduction of the death penalty for child and serial killers."RodCrosby said:
His name is Paul Nuttall....Paul_Mid_Beds said:.
All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
While Paul Nuttall is a committed Unionist, he has called for the introduction of an English Parliament and presented the new UKIP devolution policy at the annual conference at Eastbourne in September 2011. He is a climate change sceptic. Nuttall is opposed to the construction of wind farms and believes in order to maintain energy security and reduce fuel poverty, nuclear power is the only long term alternative to traditional carbon forms of fuel. He favours banning burqas in public places, citing the use of CCTV and security as his primary reason to take this stance.
He is highly involved in the UKIP Save The Pub campaign which highlights the issues surrounded the increase in pub closures in England. As part of this, he is strongly opposed to a blanket smoking ban enforced on all pubs and believes that individual landlords should choose whether to make the pub smoke free or not"
The North West of England is the Catholic heartland of England and Paul Goggins (RIP) was a Roman Catholic.0 -
The UK Independence Party's position on this issue may be stated simply: while UKIP fully supports the concept of civil partnerships, it opposes the move to legislate for same-sex marriage.another_richard said:
Do UKIP officially claim to be a libertarian party and does Farage claim to be one ?TheScreamingEagles said:@Another_Richard
I acknowledged it was a terrible bit of trolling as soon as I posted it.
But I notice that MikeK ignored the substantive point of my discussion, and only iSam has acknowledged the substantive point of my comment.
Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on
How does a party that says it is a Libertarian party, and is led by a man who calls himself a Libertarian can possibly deny loving couples the right to marry?
Perhaps you could explain that to me?
To me libertariansim is supporting the right to do things you don't like and wish other people wouldn't do. By that definition none of the parties are libertarian.
On the particular gay marriage issue are you saying that anyone who supported the law up until the change is be definition not a libertarian ?
In any case the political parties aren't short of people who profess one thing but belong to parties with different views.
As I remember you once said that supporting military personnel was one of your red lines when it came to politcal support. Can we take it that you've cut your links with the Conservative party in that case ?
As a democratic libertarian Party, we believe that The State should play only a minimal role in the lives of the people of the United Kingdom; more particularly, given the scope of this consultation, in the lives of the people of England and Wales. As such we support the concept of civil partnerships.
http://www.ukip.org/issues/policy-pages/same-sex-marriage
On the military, I was quite annoyed at Dave and didn't renew my party membership in 2011, until a few on here, and one of my friends in the military pointed out I was being overly harsh on Dave, in his words, Labour left the coalition an even worse legacy on the military than it did on the economy. As evidenced by Labour's failure to hold a strategic defence review.0 -
The info box there says 40/31/14/9TheScreamingEagles said:
Mike and Lord Ashcroft are wrong*NickPalmer said:
Ashcroft and Mike both tweeting 40/31. A misprint or a misunderstanding? Only MOE difference, of course, though 9 points would be at the upper end of recent polls.TheScreamingEagles said:
I can confirm my figures are correct, bar the LDs which is unclear at the moment.MikeL said:
Post on UKPR says 40/31. Can you confirm?TheScreamingEagles said:YouGov - Sunday Times
Is I think,
Lab 40
Con 33
UKIP 14
LD 8 or 9
I'm going from the front page of the Sunday Times
twitter.com/suttonnick/status/422118237371760640
*Well that's something I never thought I'd write.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BduqTNuCQAAiFUr.jpg:large
0
