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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Wythenshawe and Sale E could be a dry run for Toby Young’s

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited January 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Wythenshawe and Sale E could be a dry run for Toby Young’s tactical voting campaign

An interesting development in the past week has been a move by Tony Young to encourage CON>UKIP and UKIP>CON tactical voting in key marginal seats. Such schemes have been seen before between the reds and yellows but this is the first I’ve seen from the right.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Spurs have done well to score 0 in this first half.... feeble.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Is Toby Young a member of the Tory Party ? Has he breached party rules ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    UKIP are getting nowhere near in Sale/Wythenshaw.
  • I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited January 2014

    Spurs have done well to score 0 in this first half.... feeble.

    @Scrapheap - This is Jason Puncheon's penalty for Palace.

    It has to be the worst penalty ever.

    Doesn't he realise we've got 10/1 on Palace beating The Spannersurs

    http://balls.ie/football/gif-jason-puncheon-hits-worse-penalty-season/?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.

    The problem with a Tory / UKIP alliance is it effectively requires Cameron to gift UKIP a certain number of seats. It makes the split of the right permanent. And it potentially causes an issue with any Conservative MP who wishes to remain in the EU.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    edited January 2014
    surbiton said:

    Is Toby Young a member of the Tory Party ? Has he breached party rules ?

    Let's hope not - would be awful to see him go to prison not have to post a £25 cheque once a year.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Why is it in the strategic interest of the Tories for UKIP to win a seat?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]
  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 361
    " The problem with a Tory / UKIP alliance is it effectively requires Cameron to gift UKIP a certain number of seats."
    Would be true if it were in any way an official arrangement. But it doesn't have to be - Toby Young, for instance, isn't high up in the party (As far as I know - Not even sure whether he's a member ) - But he's got enough of a media presence to be able to promote the idea.
  • I can't really see it in this seat. If it is perceived as a tight two-way contest, there are almost as many 2010 Lib Dem voters for Labour to squeeze as there are Tories for UKIP to squeeze. Indeed, 2/3rds of the voters went Labour or Lib Dem last time, and that's a good place for Labour to start from.

    And even to get into characterising the contest that way, you need a very credible UKIP candidate and very weak Tory.
  • Pulpstar said:

    UKIP are getting nowhere near in Sale/Wythenshaw.

    It is likely the by-election will be well before this year's Euro-election. If it was after the Euro-election, then there would be some recent data on which tactical voting could be based.

  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    RodCrosby said:

    Why is it in the strategic interest of the Tories for UKIP to win a seat?

    What does Toby Young care (or understand) about the strategic interest of the Tories?

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I think Toby Young has got a point. Tory voters should seriously consider switching to UKIP to beat Labour. Because Tories can't.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Pulpstar said:

    UKIP are getting nowhere near in Sale/Wythenshaw.

    It is likely the by-election will be well before this year's Euro-election. If it was after the Euro-election, then there would be some recent data on which tactical voting could be based.

    The funereal baked meats will coldly furnish forth the election table.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    Neil said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Why is it in the strategic interest of the Tories for UKIP to win a seat?

    What does Toby Young care (or understand) about the strategic interest of the Tories?

    You are not suggesting that Toby Young's motives are rooted in self-advertisement, are you Neil?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Just reading Ammianus Marcellinus' history of the Later Roman Empire. It's 362AD, and he's lambasted Julian (the emperor), for trying to control the price of commodities to gain popularity, an injudicious approach (writes Marcellinus) which can lead to want and famine.

    Good job none of our leaders today would be so bloody silly. Ahem.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    I can't really see it in this seat. If it is perceived as a tight two-way contest, there are almost as many 2010 Lib Dem voters for Labour to squeeze as there are Tories for UKIP to squeeze. Indeed, 2/3rds of the voters went Labour or Lib Dem last time, and that's a good place for Labour to start from.

    And even to get into characterising the contest that way, you need a very credible UKIP candidate and very weak Tory.

    It also potentially gifts Labour some Tory votes that they wouldn't otherwise have got.

    I think it's going to be hard to get a useful tactical pattern established while Labour are in opposition. What it needs is a couple of terms of unpopular Labour government on a ludicrously low vote share. FPTP may be helpful in this regard.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    AveryLP said:

    Pulpstar said:

    UKIP are getting nowhere near in Sale/Wythenshaw.

    It is likely the by-election will be well before this year's Euro-election. If it was after the Euro-election, then there would be some recent data on which tactical voting could be based.

    The funereal baked meats will coldly furnish forth the election table.

    It is unfortunate Mr. Miliband has "little Latin and less Greek", Mr. Dancer.

    Mr. Johnson would never make the same error.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    RodCrosby said:

    Why is it in the strategic interest of the Tories for UKIP to win a seat?

    Labour fail to hold Wythenshaw would be an awful headline for Ed Miliband.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    But its not happening.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited January 2014
    surbiton said:

    I think Toby Young has got a point. Tory voters should seriously consider switching to UKIP to beat Labour. Because Tories can't.

    It'll be interesting to see how many once Labour supporters switch to UKIP. A lot I'd guess.
  • I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.

    Remind us.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Pulpstar said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Why is it in the strategic interest of the Tories for UKIP to win a seat?

    Labour fail to hold Wythenshaw would be an awful headline for Ed Miliband.
    But an even better one for UKIP, which is surely suicidal for the Tories...
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Labour will win this with 50 to 55 % of the vote , no amount of Con to UKIP tactical voting will stop Labour winning .
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Good news!

    Well, news, anyway. Chilton's got the second Marussia seat: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25696052

    Caterham need to get their arse in gear. Testing starts this month and reliability's going to be a bugger to sort out, especially so for customer teams. Reports suggest a few degrees off-kilter will bugger everything up.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Indeed, Mr. Crosby.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    edited January 2014
    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    Even Wales looks quite attractive compared to Wythenshawe. Toby has always been daft but I can see no upside for the tories in this at all. One more Labour placeman or UKIP in the HoC? I mean, is that a serious question?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    RodCrosby said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Why is it in the strategic interest of the Tories for UKIP to win a seat?

    Labour fail to hold Wythenshaw would be an awful headline for Ed Miliband.
    But an even better one for UKIP, which is surely suicidal for the Tories...
    A successful general doesn't win a battle which then loses him the war.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited January 2014

    I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.

    Remind us.

    UKIP high command told their candidate not to stand against the MP David Heathcoat-Amory who favoured withdrawal from the EU as the seat was very close between the Cons and the Lib Dems.

    He ignored the wishes of UKIP high command, and stood anyway.

    David Heathcoat-Amory lost the seat by 800 votes and the Pro-EU Lib Dem party won the seat.

    Edit: My point is not that UKIP cost the Tories the seat, David Heathcoat-Amory probably lost the seat because of his expenses.

    That asking the Kippers to partake in an electoral alliance, may not be the best idea, as they won't do what they're asked to do.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,384
    I can't see it personally. Comfortable hold for Lab with UKIP, who talk a good game, failing to live up to the hype. Again.
  • Yay = we've got a goal difference of +1 now.

    Just 33 more and we're level with Man City...

    All thanks to that astonishing pen miss - well done TSE for the help this time!!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Eagles, the UKIP high command does not sound very commanding. Whether it's high or not I would not wish to speculate.

    Toby Young can sometimes say bloody silly things. I recall a QT edition some years ago when he was perplexed and outraged that states kept secrets.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    On the plus side it is nearly 10 to 5 and United haven't lost today.

    Best day for a while.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    OT I'm a bit late to this but Labour anonymously disown Chuka Umunna's attempted immigration pander, cough, walk away.

    http://m.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cd1a3db2-7a00-11e3-8211-00144feabdc0.html
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TelePolitics: NUT: Teachers are 'strongly opposed' to licensing http://t.co/UZRHtoCIpL
  • I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.

    Remind us.

    UKIP high command told their candidate not to stand against the MP David Heathcoat-Amory who favoured withdrawal from the EU as the seat was very close between the Cons and the Lib Dems.

    He ignored the wishes of UKIP high command, and stood anyway.

    David Heathcoat-Amory lost the seat by 800 votes and the Pro-EU Lib Dem party won the seat.

    Edit: My point is not that UKIP cost the Tories the seat, David Heathcoat-Amory probably lost the seat because of his expenses.

    That asking the Kippers to partake in an electoral alliance, may not be the best idea, as they won't do what they're asked to do.
    So you'd be happier if UKIP were a bunch of yes men.

  • I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.

    Remind us.

    UKIP high command told their candidate not to stand against the MP David Heathcoat-Amory who favoured withdrawal from the EU as the seat was very close between the Cons and the Lib Dems.

    He ignored the wishes of UKIP high command, and stood anyway.

    David Heathcoat-Amory lost the seat by 800 votes and the Pro-EU Lib Dem party won the seat.

    Edit: My point is not that UKIP cost the Tories the seat, David Heathcoat-Amory probably lost the seat because of his expenses.

    That asking the Kippers to partake in an electoral alliance, may not be the best idea, as they won't do what they're asked to do.
    So you'd be happier if UKIP were a bunch of yes men.

    No.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Breathtaking lack of understanding from Young - it is 1,000 times better for Con for Lab to win the seat than UKIP.

    Just amazing that supposedly intelligent people have such little understanding of the position.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    Even Wales looks quite attractive compared to Wythenshawe. Toby has always been daft but I can see no upside for the tories in this at all. One more Labour placeman or UKIP in the HoC? I mean, is that a serious question?

    An argument could be made that the more the Conservatives attack and insult the kippers the less guilty the Labour deserters will feel in lending their votes to Farage.

    And what is more, it is the kind of tactical campaign I might enjoy.

    Let's make it official!

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    If Man U lost today would Moyes leave?

    That would almost make it worth it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Tory fifth column for UKIPstrikes again. It's one of Labour's most powerful tools.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    MikeL, I don't think there is any likelihood that the UK will be joining the Euro in the foreseeable* future.

    * I think it is more likely that the Euro will disappear before Sterling. But you know what - nobody can predict the future, particularly not the distant future, and who knows what transpires over the next 200 years? Perhaps Bitcoin takes over; perhaps we go back to gold backed currencies; perhaps the Euro ends up becoming the Mondo and taking over the world...
  • AveryLP said:

    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    Even Wales looks quite attractive compared to Wythenshawe. Toby has always been daft but I can see no upside for the tories in this at all. One more Labour placeman or UKIP in the HoC? I mean, is that a serious question?

    An argument could be made that the more the Conservatives attack and insult the kippers the less guilty the Labour deserters will feel in lending their votes to Farage.

    And what is more, it is the kind of tactical campaign I might enjoy.

    Let's make it official!

    Should UKIP take Wythenshawe it will be due to their hoovering up of disaffected ex-Labour and ex-non-voters. A little Tory tactical voting could push UKIP over the line. A defeat in this seat would be an époque making catastrophe for Labour.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Scott_P said:

    @TelePolitics: NUT: Teachers are 'strongly opposed' to licensing http://t.co/UZRHtoCIpL

    It's funny to have Hunt reminding the NUT that none of the political parties have much sympathy for crap teachers. And they thought it was just Gove.
  • AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    The Tory party sold their soul to the devil years ago when they chose Cameron as leader. You are beyond salvation now.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    Toby Young is being an idiot. End of.
  • Actually from a UKIP point of view I think this would be an exceedingly bad idea. As has already been pointed out many time, UKIP are doing well in no small part because they are not any of the other three parties. As has also been pointed out they only get a minority of their support from former Tory supporters. As such - and particularly in an area like W&S where the Tories are not strong - they are as likely as not to drive support away from UKIP rather than increase it.

    Perhaps this is actually what Young is hoping for?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    Even Wales looks quite attractive compared to Wythenshawe. Toby has always been daft but I can see no upside for the tories in this at all. One more Labour placeman or UKIP in the HoC? I mean, is that a serious question?

    An argument could be made that the more the Conservatives attack and insult the kippers the less guilty the Labour deserters will feel in lending their votes to Farage.

    And what is more, it is the kind of tactical campaign I might enjoy.

    Let's make it official!

    Should UKIP take Wythenshawe it will be due to their hoovering up of disaffected ex-Labour and ex-non-voters. A little Tory tactical voting could push UKIP over the line. A defeat in this seat would be an époque making catastrophe for Labour.

    I don't think UKIP need to win. A big Lab-UKIP swing would be enough to bloody Miliband's nose.

    The line UKIP needs to take is that we are the true party of the WWC. This means the less seen of Farage the better.

    The Tories need to stand an Southern articulate fop who campaigns solely against the kippers and who completely ignores Labour.

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    It's more than that. For the UKIP faithful, Cameron is an apostate. He's the great betrayer.
    He bounced between insulting UKIP and trying to co-opt them by a watered down imitation of their policy. He's like Clegg to the left: he's worse than the enemy because he should know better. ukip expect Labour and lib dems to surrender to Brussels, but hold out hope for the Tories. Cameron spat in their face. Another great strategic blunder alongside his AV and HoLd reform shambles
  • Actually from a UKIP point of view I think this would be an exceedingly bad idea. As has already been pointed out many time, UKIP are doing well in no small part because they are not any of the other three parties. As has also been pointed out they only get a minority of their support from former Tory supporters. As such - and particularly in an area like W&S where the Tories are not strong - they are as likely as not to drive support away from UKIP rather than increase it.

    Perhaps this is actually what Young is hoping for?

    I suspect he's too thick or too ignorant of politics outside of his metropolitan comfort zone.

    In reality the Notting Hill crowd are far closer politically to the Primrose Hill bunch than either is to UKIP.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Anyone who thinks UKIP are value at 8/1 is probably better off taking the 10/1 on Labour coming 2nd. Also at Ladbrokes.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    The Tory party sold their soul to the devil years ago when they chose Cameron as leader. You are beyond salvation now.
    That's a very unchristian view, Richard.

    Especially as my stated views on the kippers are purely motivated by partisan tactics.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?
  • AveryLP said:

    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    Even Wales looks quite attractive compared to Wythenshawe. Toby has always been daft but I can see no upside for the tories in this at all. One more Labour placeman or UKIP in the HoC? I mean, is that a serious question?

    An argument could be made that the more the Conservatives attack and insult the kippers the less guilty the Labour deserters will feel in lending their votes to Farage.

    And what is more, it is the kind of tactical campaign I might enjoy.

    Let's make it official!

    It might be better if you devoted all your energy to that cause rather than economics after your floundering on the last thread.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    DavidL said:

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    Even Wales looks quite attractive compared to Wythenshawe. Toby has always been daft but I can see no upside for the tories in this at all. One more Labour placeman or UKIP in the HoC? I mean, is that a serious question?

    An argument could be made that the more the Conservatives attack and insult the kippers the less guilty the Labour deserters will feel in lending their votes to Farage.

    And what is more, it is the kind of tactical campaign I might enjoy.

    Let's make it official!

    It might be better if you devoted all your energy to that cause rather than economics after your floundering on the last thread.
    Floundering, ar?

    Sounds a bit fishy to me.

  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    I can't see the remaining Tory voters here willing to vote tactically for UKIP, so a pact may well push them straight to Labour. This could cause plenty of damage for Lab/LDs elsewhere however, so seeing it fail miserably here then die a death without being tested elsewhere might be useful.

    @TheScreamingEagles FPT: so with those numbers, either a grand lefty coalition (I imagine it would be with the SDLP rather than Greens, more numbers and (sorry Neil) a better grip on reality.) But either way you're looking at 3/4 parties coming together to give a majority of 20 or so. The lefty coalition has Dennis Skinner and co. with a blocking minority, the righty one has Peter Bone in the same role. Could such a Government last? Not convinced. The point I'm making is that away from the big 2, there may not be a sizeable enough grouping anywhere else to make up the numbers. And if the big 2 are finely balanced, it could be very messy.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    ratio of DE to C2 imo
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,470
    felix said:

    Toby Young is being an idiot. End of.

    Toby Young is being clever. He has a job as a column writer, and he has written a column that has got lots of people talking. It doesn't matter if people think the concept he's written about is rubbish: he's got readers, shares and links. He's generated a PB thread.

    He probably has to produce a large number of these columns every year. It must be rather difficult to talk about current affairs and not repeat yourself, so it must be fairly amusing to throw these hand grenades in every so often.

    After all, he'll get a paycheck for this.That's hardly idiotic.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    MikeK said:

    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?

    I lost money on a UKIP win at BUckingham

    I lost money on UKIP at Eastleigh

    I lost money on a UKIP win and on vote share at South Shields

    I'm now on you at Wythenshawe.

    When you start winning seats you can be boastful.





  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Quincel said:

    Anyone who thinks UKIP are value at 8/1 is probably better off taking the 10/1 on Labour coming 2nd. Also at Ladbrokes.


    Good spot

  • Still not convinced by this. Even if UKIP picked up the entire Con vote that would still take them to 29% behind Labour's 44%. The next problem is that LDs had 22% and surely some of that will go to Labour. So to win UKIP will also need lots of direct Labour-UKIP switchers to get Labour down to c35% and hope to scrape over the line.

    If Labour were in government I could see UKIP winning this but not while Lab are in opposition
  • Labour only won 44.1% of the vote in 2010, tories won 25.6%, libdems 22.3 and BNP/UKIP 7.3% between them and something called trade union socialist coalition 0.7%

    Since 1997, tory vote has changed little. Labour was 60% until 2005 when it fell to 52% as libs went from 13 to 21% then labour lost another 8% in 2010 to the three minor parties.

    So virtually none of labours lost votes went to the tories. In 2005 it went to libdems and those votes stayed with libdems in 2010, in 2010 the additional lost votes split roughly 50/50 between UKIP and BNP with BNP getting 170 votes more than UKIP. Turnout was 54.3% so nearly half the electorate didn't bother to vote.

    We can surmise:
    At least half the libdem vote are disgruntled labour voters who may well vote UKIP

    BNP vote will probably go to UKIP

    UKIP have plenty of non voters to court.

    Tactical voting from tory to UKIP will be essential to UKIP.

    This seat is not exactly Notting Hill to say the least, the deceased MP was a prominent Roman Catholic who spoke out against abortion and gay marriage and was popular locally. The labour replacement is unlikely to have such socially conservative views, which will enable UKIP to extract a significant chunk of Labour vote.

    All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    edited January 2014

    Still not convinced by this. Even if UKIP picked up the entire Con vote that would still take them to 29% behind Labour's 44%. The next problem is that LDs had 22% and surely some of that will go to Labour. So to win UKIP will also need lots of direct Labour-UKIP switchers to get Labour down to c35% and hope to scrape over the line.

    If Labour were in government I could see UKIP winning this but not while Lab are in opposition

    The point is that this will be a low-turnout by-election. The Labour Party could easily just get just 8-9,000 votes.

    Quite a few LibDem voters were really "none of the above" voters, and if UKIP can convince them that they are the new NOTA / protest vote repository they will get there vote.

    There are bound to be local issues the UKIP candidate can capitalise on.

    And don't forget, UKIP only needs to get 10,000 votes or so, and there are a lot of people very angry with our politicians out there.

    I think they can do it. It's by no means a certainty, but I think they can.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Freggles said:

    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    It's more than that. For the UKIP faithful, Cameron is an apostate. He's the great betrayer.
    He bounced between insulting UKIP and trying to co-opt them by a watered down imitation of their policy. He's like Clegg to the left: he's worse than the enemy because he should know better. ukip expect Labour and lib dems to surrender to Brussels, but hold out hope for the Tories. Cameron spat in their face. Another great strategic blunder alongside his AV and HoLd reform shambles
    What a frothing piece!
    Cameron didn't spit in ukip's face but he told the parliamentary party that it is the objective of ukip to destroy the Conservative Party. They will damage the Conservative Party just like the Tea Party is damaging the Republican Party. There is no reasoning or sensible discussion with ukip, god help us if they ever get any kind of power.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.

    Yeah, go for the subjects that people really care about. Forget about the economy and immigration and jobs - go for it! Make it about gay marriage and abortion and you're sure to... sure to...

    Errrr. Something.
  • AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    There is nothing to be gained by the Conservative Party consorting with a bunch of swivel-eyed loons, closet-racists and fruitcakes.

    Toby Young's proposals should be summarily rejected with an haughty and aristocratic disdain.

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    [Matthew 16:26]

    The Tory party sold their soul to the devil years ago when they chose Cameron as leader. You are beyond salvation now.
    That's a very unchristian view, Richard.

    Especially as my stated views on the kippers are purely motivated by partisan tactics.
    Ah but I am not a Christian. I am an atheist with pagan leanings. In fact this evening I will be out wassailing the apple trees in our orchard along with the neighbours. Large quantities of cider will be drunk and the Middle Eastern Sky fairies will be far from our thoughts (Even if some of the songs have been somewhat Christianized. :-) )
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052

    A defeat in this seat would be an époque making catastrophe for Labour.

    Don't be silly. Just as daft as Young's idea. The only people who would suffer from a UKIP victory would be the Tories. It could set off a series of UKIP by-election victories, a UKIP victory in the Euro elections, and destroy any hope the Tories have of winning the next election.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    felix said:

    Toby Young is being an idiot. End of.

    Toby Young is being clever. He has a job as a column writer, and he has written a column that has got lots of people talking. It doesn't matter if people think the concept he's written about is rubbish: he's got readers, shares and links. He's generated a PB thread.

    He probably has to produce a large number of these columns every year. It must be rather difficult to talk about current affairs and not repeat yourself, so it must be fairly amusing to throw these hand grenades in every so often.

    After all, he'll get a paycheck for this.That's hardly idiotic.
    The ability to earn money and idiocy are by no means mutually exclusive.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited January 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    Still not convinced by this. Even if UKIP picked up the entire Con vote that would still take them to 29% behind Labour's 44%. The next problem is that LDs had 22% and surely some of that will go to Labour. So to win UKIP will also need lots of direct Labour-UKIP switchers to get Labour down to c35% and hope to scrape over the line.

    If Labour were in government I could see UKIP winning this but not while Lab are in opposition

    The point is that this will be a low-turnout by-election. The Labour Party could easily just get just 8-9,000 votes.

    Quite a few LibDem voters were really "none of the above" voters, and if UKIP can convince them that they are the new NOTA / protest vote repository they will get there vote.

    There are bound to be local issues the UKIP candidate can capitalise on.

    And don't forget, UKIP only needs to get 10,000 votes or so, and there are a lot of people very angry with our politicians out there.

    I think they can do it. It's by no means a certainty, but I think they can.
    There is no way Labour will poll as few as 8-9,000 votes in this constituency . Even at their nadir in the 2008 local elections they polled 9,100 votes in the 8 wards making up the constituency . In 2011 they got 13,600 odd .
    An absolute minimum would be around 11,000 but IMO they will get around 13, 000 .
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    perdix said:

    Freggles said:

    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    It's more than that. For the UKIP faithful, Cameron is an apostate. He's the great betrayer.
    He bounced between insulting UKIP and trying to co-opt them by a watered down imitation of their policy. He's like Clegg to the left: he's worse than the enemy because he should know better. ukip expect Labour and lib dems to surrender to Brussels, but hold out hope for the Tories. Cameron spat in their face. Another great strategic blunder alongside his AV and HoLd reform shambles
    What a frothing piece!
    Cameron didn't spit in ukip's face but he told the parliamentary party that it is the objective of ukip to destroy the Conservative Party. They will damage the Conservative Party just like the Tea Party is damaging the Republican Party. There is no reasoning or sensible discussion with ukip, god help us if they ever get any kind of power.
    How is the Tea Party damaging the Republican Party?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,470
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Toby Young is being an idiot. End of.

    Toby Young is being clever. He has a job as a column writer, and he has written a column that has got lots of people talking. It doesn't matter if people think the concept he's written about is rubbish: he's got readers, shares and links. He's generated a PB thread.

    He probably has to produce a large number of these columns every year. It must be rather difficult to talk about current affairs and not repeat yourself, so it must be fairly amusing to throw these hand grenades in every so often.

    After all, he'll get a paycheck for this.That's hardly idiotic.
    The ability to earn money and idiocy are by no means mutually exclusive.
    Something that's often been said about me. ;-)

    But I think you may be missing the point: see it from his point of view. He has to write a large number of columns every year. If he writes the same thing each time then he won't be a columnist for much longer. The trick is to make most of your columns appeal to the outlet's readership base, but occasionally throw hand grenades. This must be hard to do and keep fresh, at least in the broadsheets.

    They get people annoyed, generate talk and traffic for your employer. What is more, it often gets the writer on other media outlets to discuss things. Witness Polly.

    I bet many columnists don't really believe in many of the things they actually write week after week. As long as they get paid, I bet most of them don't care.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    perdix said:

    Freggles said:

    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    It's more than that. For the UKIP faithful, Cameron is an apostate. He's the great betrayer.
    He bounced between insulting UKIP and trying to co-opt them by a watered down imitation of their policy. He's like Clegg to the left: he's worse than the enemy because he should know better. ukip expect Labour and lib dems to surrender to Brussels, but hold out hope for the Tories. Cameron spat in their face. Another great strategic blunder alongside his AV and HoLd reform shambles
    What a frothing piece!
    Cameron didn't spit in ukip's face but he told the parliamentary party that it is the objective of ukip to destroy the Conservative Party. They will damage the Conservative Party just like the Tea Party is damaging the Republican Party. There is no reasoning or sensible discussion with ukip, god help us if they ever get any kind of power.
    He called them closet racists and broke his Cast Iron pledge in their eyes, you don't get much worse than that for kippers! But I agree that it seems unlikely a deal can be made. Nihilists, as I said.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?

    I lost money on a UKIP win at BUckingham

    I lost money on UKIP at Eastleigh

    I lost money on a UKIP win and on vote share at South Shields

    I'm now on you at Wythenshawe.

    When you start winning seats you can be boastful.

    I really hope you start winning heaps of dough on UKIP. No one wants it more that me.
    But really; asking TSE why he is so frit about UKIP, is far from being boastful.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    rcs1000 said:

    I can't see a Tory/UKIP alliance ever working in practise, some of us remember what happened in Wells last time.

    The problem with a Tory / UKIP alliance is it effectively requires Cameron to gift UKIP a certain number of seats. It makes the split of the right permanent. And it potentially causes an issue with any Conservative MP who wishes to remain in the EU.
    Yet, the Tories have successfully run electoral pacts with many parties, over the years. Liberal Unionists, National Liberals, Scottish Unionists, Progressives, Ulster Unionists, Liberals (in the 50's).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    perdix said:

    Freggles said:

    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    MikeL said:

    Freggles said:

    Daft idea from Toadmeister..
    Tories should just take the pedal off the gas in no-hope Northern seats and hope UKIP call off their dogs in lab/con marginals.
    However the kippers are just nihilistic enough to not go in for that either so basically Labour are laughing all the way to Westminster

    The reason for the above is that UKIP are enjoying themselves - they're enjoying damaging the Conservatives' chances.

    The fact that by doing so they are increasing the chances of European integration, increasing the chances of us joining the Euro (and increasing the chances of huge tax rises) is neither here nor there - they're either not bothered or haven't managed to work that out.

    Or if they are a bit bothered their desire for a bit of fun outweighs that.
    It's more than that. For the UKIP faithful, Cameron is an apostate. He's the great betrayer.
    He bounced between insulting UKIP and trying to co-opt them by a watered down imitation of their policy. He's like Clegg to the left: he's worse than the enemy because he should know better. ukip expect Labour and lib dems to surrender to Brussels, but hold out hope for the Tories. Cameron spat in their face. Another great strategic blunder alongside his AV and HoLd reform shambles
    What a frothing piece!
    Cameron didn't spit in ukip's face but he told the parliamentary party that it is the objective of ukip to destroy the Conservative Party. They will damage the Conservative Party just like the Tea Party is damaging the Republican Party. There is no reasoning or sensible discussion with ukip, god help us if they ever get any kind of power.
    5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.

  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    edited January 2014
    The best Conservative argument against UKIP is that they've never won a seat, so a vote for UKIP is a vote for Ed. Unlike the other electoral pacts Conservatives have made through their history, UKIP don't have MPs, so it's hard to see how the Conservatives could actually make net gains as a party.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Sean_F said:

    5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.

    But which UKIP, Sean?

    The free-trade libertarianism of Richard Tyndall?

    Or the social conservatism and trade barriers of Paul_Mid_Beds?

    UKIP used to be a free market libertarian party. And I know Richard still thinks it is that (and I could possibly support it if it was), but many of its supporters on this board have very different views. UKIP seems to be the broadest church of them all - and that is both a challenge and an opportunity.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    @Sean_F

    If Britain left the EU, would UKIP still exist?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    rcs1000 said:

    @Sean_F

    If Britain left the EU, would UKIP still exist?

    Absolutely! There's a lot of work to do -masses of it - to make Britain a viable country, able to stand on its own feet; with an economy that is not lopsided, as it is today.
  • Young is persistent if delusional. His cheap stunt has been analysed by the likes of John Curtice and even if the immense rancour towards the Tories could be overcome there is little or no value in such a proposition for UKIP. They stand far more chance convincing Labour and Libdem voters to support them in stopping the Tories in what once might have been considered solid (if not quite totally safe) Tory seats.

    I'm sure Tories will be sick of the sight of leaflets saying only UKIP can stop the Tories in heartland seat after heartland seat.

    As for Wythenshawe my previous comments about Farage's challenge in Buckingham apply. Does anyone seriously expect there to be a 21% swing from Labour to UKIP when Labour are on course to win the next election? Does anyone think that the vast majority of Pro-European Pro-Immigration Libdems from the 2010 elections will switch to Eurosceptic, Anti Immigration UKIP? Will former Libdem Sale University types pick Labour or UKIP? I think the best that UKIP can hope for is a good second in this by-election.

    The problem with Smithson's Newbury/Christchurch analogy is the Libdems were challenging unpopular government held seats not an opposition seat for a party on course to win the next general election. The strategy Smithson suggests will not work because Labour are not in government and therefore not desperately unpopular but are on the up. People at the moment don't want to stop Labour so much as they want to stop the Tories. As such its a false comparison.

    UKIP's best chance of winning will be in a by election in a Libdem or Tory seat (where Labour no longer have much sway). After all they were not far away in Eastleigh and actually won the vote on the day. It was the postal vote that let them down.

    Still all that said, whats the harm in ramping up UKIPs chances only to pull them to pieces if they don't achieve the nigh impossible?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    smithersjones2013 Why would LD/Labour voters vote UKIP when UKIP is even further to the right than the Tories? The point in Wythenshaw is that the Tories have no chance of winning blue collar northern seats like this by-election, but UKIP do, so Tory supporters could be persuaded to vote tactically to beat Labour!
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Young is persistent if delusional. His cheap stunt has been analysed by the likes of John Curtice and even if the immense rancour towards the Tories could be overcome there is little or no value in such a proposition for UKIP. They stand far more chance convincing Labour and Libdem voters to support them in stopping the Tories in what once might have been considered solid (if not quite totally safe) Tory seats.

    I'm sure Tories will be sick of the sight of leaflets saying only UKIP can stop the Tories in heartland seat after heartland seat.

    As for Wythenshawe my previous comments about Farage's challenge in Buckingham apply. Does anyone seriously expect there to be a 21% swing from Labour to UKIP when Labour are on course to win the next election? Does anyone think that the vast majority of Pro-European Pro-Immigration Libdems from the 2010 elections will switch to Eurosceptic, Anti Immigration UKIP? Will former Libdem Sale University types pick Labour or UKIP? I think the best that UKIP can hope for is a good second in this by-election.

    The problem with Smithson's Newbury/Christchurch analogy is the Libdems were challenging unpopular government held seats not an opposition seat for a party on course to win the next general election. The strategy Smithson suggests will not work because Labour are not in government and therefore not desperately unpopular but are on the up. People at the moment don't want to stop Labour so much as they want to stop the Tories. As such its a false comparison.

    UKIP's best chance of winning will be in a by election in a Libdem or Tory seat (where Labour no longer have much sway). After all they were not far away in Eastleigh and actually won the vote on the day. It was the postal vote that let them down.

    Still all that said, whats the harm in ramping up UKIPs chances only to pull them to pieces if they don't achieve the nigh impossible?

    Some of the LD vote in the north were the sort of people who'd vote Ukip so places where most of the LD vote has gone but not all of it to Labour would be sign. I don't think that applies here though i didn't look.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    SeanF UKIP could be one of 3 foreign parties/groups - A US Tea Party, in which case it has probably peaked; a French FN in which case it will probably continue as a strong party of protest without winning power; or a Canadian Reform Party, in which case it will realign British politics and ultimately take over the Tories!
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited January 2014
    EPG said:

    The best Conservative argument against UKIP is that they've never won a seat, so a vote for UKIP is a vote for Ed. Unlike the other electoral pacts Conservatives have made through their history, UKIP don't have MPs, so it's hard to see how the Conservatives could actually make net gains as a party.

    If that is the best argument the Tories have got against UKIP they haven't got much of an argument then. If the Tories cannot challenge UKIP on policy then it shows what a poor state the Tories are in.

    Putting aside the whole Libdem exodus to Labour, if the Tories resort to the purile "Vote UKIP get Labour" drivel then all that demonstrates is that the Tories have nothing positive to offer and Labour have already won the argument. If the Tories have a serious offer for the British people they need to be challenging Labour on policy not presenting schoolyard sneers regarding a previously minor party.

    Every time the Tories attack UKIP in the general election instead of battling Labour they give UKIP significance and demonstrate their own weakness and insecurity.



  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see it personally. Comfortable hold for Lab with UKIP, who talk a good game, failing to live up to the hype. Again.

    When have they failed to live up to the hype?

    They have over performed compared to the opinion polls in every by election since 2012.0, and have never been favourite to win anything
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    MikeK said:

    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?

    I lost money on a UKIP win at BUckingham

    I lost money on UKIP at Eastleigh

    I lost money on a UKIP win and on vote share at South Shields

    I'm now on you at Wythenshawe.

    When you start winning seats you can be boastful.






    You backed a lot of big prices and none won, what a surprise
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    isam said:

    MikeK said:

    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?

    I lost money on a UKIP win at BUckingham

    I lost money on UKIP at Eastleigh

    I lost money on a UKIP win and on vote share at South Shields

    I'm now on you at Wythenshawe.

    When you start winning seats you can be boastful.






    You backed a lot of big prices and none won, what a surprise
    lol.Perhaps Mike should have put money on UKIP coming second then eh!
  • HYUFD said:

    smithersjones2013 Why would LD/Labour voters vote UKIP when UKIP is even further to the right than the Tories? The point in Wythenshaw is that the Tories have no chance of winning blue collar northern seats like this by-election, but UKIP do, so Tory supporters could be persuaded to vote tactically to beat Labour!

    Have you bothered to look at the last election results (when Labour were close to their all time low nationally)? Labour had a 7,500 majority with the opposition vote split between Tory and Libdem.

    If you added all the Tory vote which won't happen and half the Libdem vote to the UKIP vote they would still be 1500 votes short and that's without any Libdems shifting to Labour

    Now if you look at 2001 or 2005 which I think will be a better comparison for the Labour position. I expect Labour to get 50% plus of the vote share. UKIP will do well to come second.


  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.

    But which UKIP, Sean?

    The free-trade libertarianism of Richard Tyndall?

    Or the social conservatism and trade barriers of Paul_Mid_Beds?

    UKIP used to be a free market libertarian party. And I know Richard still thinks it is that (and I could possibly support it if it was), but many of its supporters on this board have very different views. UKIP seems to be the broadest church of them all - and that is both a challenge and an opportunity.
    That's very true. The original free market libertarian UKIP had a lot that I liked - in terms of how they were going to leave me alone to live my life freely. The more recent sounds coming from UKIP are just a different flavour of authoritarianism.

    If the ideas on personal freedom make a comeback then I could well vote for them in the Euros.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited January 2014

    .
    All in all an ideal seat for UKIP who would be well advised to put up a Christian, anti abortion, anti gay marriage candidate. If they could do a Newbury anywhere this is the place.

    His name is Paul Nuttall....
  • isam said:

    MikeK said:

    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?

    I lost money on a UKIP win at BUckingham

    I lost money on UKIP at Eastleigh

    I lost money on a UKIP win and on vote share at South Shields

    I'm now on you at Wythenshawe.

    When you start winning seats you can be boastful.






    You backed a lot of big prices and none won, what a surprise
    Are we seeing a new phenomena akin to Gordon Brown's affect on English sports? In other words "the curse of Smithson"?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,894
    edited January 2014
    SmithersJones The last election result also had UKIP slightly above their national score in Wythenshawe, and their poll rating has jumped since then and they have beaten the Tories in all recent similar northern by-elections in Labour seats.
  • MrJones said:

    Young is persistent if delusional. His cheap stunt has been analysed by the likes of John Curtice and even if the immense rancour towards the Tories could be overcome there is little or no value in such a proposition for UKIP. They stand far more chance convincing Labour and Libdem voters to support them in stopping the Tories in what once might have been considered solid (if not quite totally safe) Tory seats.

    I'm sure Tories will be sick of the sight of leaflets saying only UKIP can stop the Tories in heartland seat after heartland seat.

    As for Wythenshawe my previous comments about Farage's challenge in Buckingham apply. Does anyone seriously expect there to be a 21% swing from Labour to UKIP when Labour are on course to win the next election? Does anyone think that the vast majority of Pro-European Pro-Immigration Libdems from the 2010 elections will switch to Eurosceptic, Anti Immigration UKIP? Will former Libdem Sale University types pick Labour or UKIP? I think the best that UKIP can hope for is a good second in this by-election.

    The problem with Smithson's Newbury/Christchurch analogy is the Libdems were challenging unpopular government held seats not an opposition seat for a party on course to win the next general election. The strategy Smithson suggests will not work because Labour are not in government and therefore not desperately unpopular but are on the up. People at the moment don't want to stop Labour so much as they want to stop the Tories. As such its a false comparison.

    UKIP's best chance of winning will be in a by election in a Libdem or Tory seat (where Labour no longer have much sway). After all they were not far away in Eastleigh and actually won the vote on the day. It was the postal vote that let them down.

    Still all that said, whats the harm in ramping up UKIPs chances only to pull them to pieces if they don't achieve the nigh impossible?

    Some of the LD vote in the north were the sort of people who'd vote Ukip so places where most of the LD vote has gone but not all of it to Labour would be sign. I don't think that applies here though i didn't look.
    In 2010 The Tory and Libdem vote were almost equal and each was just over half of the Labour vote . If UKIP took half of each it would put them in second but still nowhere near Labour. What would have to happen is for all the Tory UKIP and Libdem vote to come together under one banner and that would possibly defeat Labour but I really cannot see that happening under any circumstances

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    MikeK said:

    TSE. The man most scared, frightened, terrified and perplexed by the rise of UKIP.

    Do you look under the bed and search the cupboards, to see if there are any kippers lurking there, TSE?

    I lost money on a UKIP win at BUckingham

    I lost money on UKIP at Eastleigh

    I lost money on a UKIP win and on vote share at South Shields

    I'm now on you at Wythenshawe.

    When you start winning seats you can be boastful.






    You backed a lot of big prices and none won, what a surprise
    Are we seeing a new phenomena akin to Gordon Brown's affect on English sports? In other words "the curse of Smithson"?

    Mike had a few bets that were very likely to lose.... that lost
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2014
    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    5 years from now, you'll be voting UKIP.

    But which UKIP, Sean?

    The free-trade libertarianism of Richard Tyndall?

    Or the social conservatism and trade barriers of Paul_Mid_Beds?

    UKIP used to be a free market libertarian party. And I know Richard still thinks it is that (and I could possibly support it if it was), but many of its supporters on this board have very different views. UKIP seems to be the broadest church of them all - and that is both a challenge and an opportunity.
    That's very true. The original free market libertarian UKIP had a lot that I liked - in terms of how they were going to leave me alone to live my life freely. The more recent sounds coming from UKIP are just a different flavour of authoritarianism.

    If the ideas on personal freedom make a comeback then I could well vote for them in the Euros.

    Economic libertarianism is plain unpopular in this post-recession age. Farage is nothing if not shrewd, and seems to be starting to take UKIP in the direction of the French National Front, by mixing conservative policies on immigration and crime with populist leftwing messages on the economy and welfare state (marrying it all together under an anti-globalisation, anti-big business, pro-working man banner).

    UKIP's socially conservative policies are undeniably very popular among traditional, white working-class Labour people, but their previous policies on flat tax rates, slashing the NHS, letting big businesses fleece people in the name of "free markets", no wage protections, and making huge cuts solely for the sake of pacifying global market investors, would be about as popular with those types of people as a cup of cold sick.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Evening all and sorry but as the late Labour MP isn't yet even in his grave I find all the speculation about his successor rather distasteful.

    Under no circumstances should Tory voters vote UKIP anywhere. Farage and his chums need to have the oxygen removed from their campaigns not given tanks of it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    Exactly why should anyone take any notice of Toby Young? Apart from his parentage and the fact of his sundry friends, what has he got that anyone might think he's a role model or leader of modern thought?
This discussion has been closed.